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Photographer
Francisco Castro
Posts: 1,679
Cincinnati, Ohio, US


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:
So much has been said I do not want to open the debate on escorts. However a new model contacted me last week about a shoot and she eventually called me. She said she needed to bring an escort since it was a promise she had made to her overly worried father....as I was about to say no thanks...she said that her escort was an MUA and stylist. I checked the MUA's profile, it all looked quite good.
Win/win.
So I offer this idea to those ladies wanting/needing escorts. Make friends with an MUA or stylist. Make very good friends with one...or two.
Not many photographers would say no to this arrangement.

That is a great compromise and completely in line with my own policies. No one not directly involved in the shoot should be there. If they can't get their boyfriends/husbands to loosen the leash, then I really don't want to deal with the drama they bring. If they want a MUAH, then I will be more than happy to recommend a few that they can hire.

I always recommend models check references; that's why I credit models, so models can be reached. If at that point they still don't trust me, then don't shoot with me.

Boyfriends, husbands, friends with benefits, and other assorted significant others are just not allowed.

Mar 14 13 07:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,448
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


Danielle Kitten wrote:
I don't understand why a bodyguard is so hated.

I don't either. I have my friend and bodyguard Bubba stand behind me with his AK47 while I do shoots.  If the model brought her own bodyguard/escort, Bubba keeps his weapon trained on that person.  I find it provides a nice, relaxed, safe environment for everyone.

Why go to work on my own, when I can bring my own bodyguard?

Mar 14 13 07:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KonstantKarma
Posts: 2,513
Hickory, North Carolina, US


Decay of Memory wrote:
I eagerly clicked on this thread because of the promise of the title. I had high hopes that the persistent and vexing question of escorts had finally been solved.

It seems I was optimistic. This is nothing but a ploy to get more work for MUAs.

Once again my hopes have been dashed.

I'll see you Tuesday for our support group.

Mar 14 13 07:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
sammyspade
Posts: 98
Portland, Oregon, US


Escorts are a crutch, and a bad one. 

Using escorts, even for a new model, just delays them learning how to background/reference check a photographer and separate out the class acts from the creeps.

It also retards their new career as it limits the pool of photographers they can work with - and the photographers they lose are the better and more experienced ones.

My sense is, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy - bring an escort - shoot with creeps - feel even more justified in bringing an escort.
Mar 14 13 08:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
George ephrem
Posts: 981
Jacksonville, Florida, US


i tell the models they can bring thier mom, cousin, aunt best gal friend for their comfort, and they can also help by holding a reflector...

seems to work pretty good for the most part.

try it, you might like it

edit... miost of my shoot are out doors so reflectors are def used
Mar 14 13 08:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KonstantKarma
Posts: 2,513
Hickory, North Carolina, US


George ephrem wrote:
i tell the models they can bring thier mom, cousin, aunt best gal friend for their comfort, and they can also help by holding a reflector...

seems to work pretty good for the most part.

try it, you might like it

edit... miost of my shoot are out doors so reflectors are def used

Escorts are much easier to deal with outdoors, when they're not taking your stuff (or messing with it), breaking things in your studio room or causing police disturbances.

Mar 14 13 08:29 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Faylin Lynx
Posts: 20
Toms River, New Jersey, US


Just my two cents, from both model and photographer point of view:

The term "escort" alone anymore causes such a big issue. The sad part is, a great deal of people- not just models- will want an escort because of how many people in this industry are not actual professionals or in this to become professionals. The number of "creepers" anymore today is outstanding. And so many female models will bring jealous husbands/boyfriends/spouses or intrusive friends that that alone will make a photographer not want escorts around, besides anything else that may occur.

Personally, it depends on how far I'm traveling and what the shoot entails, and if we were able to have a meet and greet (which is very rare, as well, nowadays) as to whether or not I'll have someone with me - and it's all discussed prior to. For example, I can do basic makeup, but if they want out there, high fashion makeup, then I'll have one of my MUAs with me. If it's a shoot that's three hours away from me, and I've never worked with the photographer before, I'll bring a fellow trusted model with me. Regardless of the situation- I never bring anyone who would intrude upon the shoot, give me faces, give the photographer trouble, etc. I have yet to have a complaint about the way I work.

Like my situation right now- I just got done have surgery. I'm not supposed to be driving for six weeks. I got the okay to ease myself back into shooting, but I still have a three week time period of no driving- therefore, I need to have a way to get to the shoot. It's not me being "Oh no! I feel so unsafe! I need a bodyguard!" It's me wanting to be able to do my shoot.

Same thing goes for when I'm on the other side of the camera. I'm fine with the model bringing someone along with them- provided they don't disturb the shoot, and often times, they may be asked to assist with equipment. I do ask the model to inform me if they do plan to bring someone, just so I know what to expect, but I never flat out tell them no, they are not allowed to bring anyone with them. I even suggest to them that if they have a model or MUA friend, bring them. And the models are made away that if the escort or themselves step out of line, then the shoot is over.

It's pretty much up to individual taste. As others have said- work with those who click with you.
Mar 14 13 12:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
Actually, it does make sense...

If the problem isn't with the individual photographer, but with going alone to the shoot, or anywhere, then yes, an added person, even an MUA, makes a difference.

Just like if I say I'm going for a walk late at night by myself, people think that's a terrible idea, but if I'm going with friends, it's at least a little safer.

And it is. Because if you think going to a private location alone with a stranger is dangerous, then going with someone offers a little bit of protection. Bad things DO happen on shoots sometimes.

I'm not advocating escorts, here, but the logic isn't that hard to figure out.

Also, if the photographer is new to MM, doesn't have models tagged, hasn't worked with anyone you know... How do you check references? I know that doesn't apply to most in this thread, but it does apply to a lot of photographers.

It's another reason why more experienced models never need escorts-- because we are working with the more experienced photographers.

No, I understand the logic behind it. I just don't think it makes sense when you think it through. We know the escort is for the model's belief that she's protected from a potentially dangerous photographer. OK, so let's look at the second group of "add-on" people...the model's female friend.

This person is brought along because the model perceives herself as being safer because she has her girlfriend there. Safety in numbers, as you mentioned.

Why that doesn't make sense is that the entire purpose of bringing someone along is to thwart a potentially dangerous photographer. But if the photographer actually IS that dangerous monster the model has "prepared" for, all she's done is expose another victim.

Bringing a girlfriend to the shoot doesn't offer protection, it only adds a false sense of security and perceived protection. It is most certainly not going to deter the monsters that are so often portrayed in these threads.

Mar 14 13 12:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Decay of Memory
Posts: 581
Asheville, North Carolina, US


KonstantKarma wrote:

I'll see you Tuesday for our support group.

It just seems to go on and on with no light at the end of the tunnel. It's having a bad effect on me mentally.

Mar 14 13 01:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


Hell, I've had models ask if they can bring an escort who ended up showing up alone anyway.  Basically, my "yes" to their escort question was enough to make them feel comfortable to shoot alone with me.

But really, the more of these "escort" threads I read, the more I realize that photographers and models are both too goddamn paranoid.

"The photographer might rape me!"
"The escort might rob me and beat me up!"

For chrissake, how do you people find the courage to go outside?
Mar 14 13 05:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:

No, I understand the logic behind it. I just don't think it makes sense when you think it through. We know the escort is for the model's belief that she's protected from a potentially dangerous photographer. OK, so let's look at the second group of "add-on" people...the model's female friend.

This person is brought along because the model perceives herself as being safer because she has her girlfriend there. Safety in numbers, as you mentioned.

Why that doesn't make sense is that the entire purpose of bringing someone along is to thwart a potentially dangerous photographer. But if the photographer actually IS that dangerous monster the model has "prepared" for, all she's done is expose another victim.

Bringing a girlfriend to the shoot doesn't offer protection, it only adds a false sense of security and perceived protection. It is most certainly not going to deter the monsters that are so often portrayed in these threads.

Actually yeah it would.  I mean it wouldn't thwart a serial killer or anything but it would help thwart some pervy douche who wanted to hit on the model or try to convince the model to get "nekkid" after she has already stated she doesn't want to do that.

Mar 14 13 05:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,694
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:
So much has been said I do not want to open the debate on escorts. However a new model contacted me last week about a shoot and she eventually called me. She said she needed to bring an escort since it was a promise she had made to her overly worried father....as I was about to say no thanks...she said that her escort was an MUA and stylist. I checked the MUA's profile, it all looked quite good.
Win/win.
So I offer this idea to those ladies wanting/needing escorts. Make friends with an MUA or stylist. Make very good friends with one...or two.
Not many photographers would say no to this arrangement.

My issue with this personally Rick is I already have a team I work with.  I am not saying you were not a good guy for working with this young lady and I hope you got some great images.  Vetting your business associates is the best "solution"

Mar 14 13 05:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chuckarelei
Posts: 9,397
Seattle, Washington, US


ontherocks wrote:
why don't models just leave already when a photographer crosses that line?

The temptation of free pretty pictures over-ride the logic of common sense?

Mar 14 13 11:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25,351
Portland, Oregon, US


how is this thread not like all the other 4,500,294 escort threads on MM?
Mar 15 13 12:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,351
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


Decay of Memory wrote:
I eagerly clicked on this thread because of the promise of the title. I had high hopes that the persistent and vexing question of escorts had finally been solved.

It seems I was optimistic. This is nothing but a ploy to get more work for MUAs.

Once again my hopes have been dashed.

It did nothing to increase your reading comprehension either.

Mar 15 13 12:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Decay of Memory
Posts: 581
Asheville, North Carolina, US


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:

It did nothing to increase your reading comprehension either.

It was intended to be remedial?

Mar 15 13 07:59 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Brianne L
Posts: 279
OTTSVILLE, Pennsylvania, US


What if the MUAH happens to be a family member?
My sister is a licensed cosmetologist. She hasn't been with me to every shoot, so far only one, with another planned for next month (with the same photographer though).

Either way, I don't bring my boyfriend or a male figure as my "escort" unless it's a shoot with one of our friends that happens to do photography as a hobby, and they've known each other way before then anyway.

Right now since I don't drive, I "require" an escort most of the time, and unless there is something for them to do nearby they are going to stick close to the shooting location. They're never up in the business of the photo shoot though.
But if the photographer still doesn't agree with that, that's fine, and we both move on to find different people to work with.
Mar 15 13 08:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leon Bailey
Posts: 523
Orlando, Florida, US


There isn't any reason for an llama herder especially if you are working with a full team. But yes, that is a compromise.
Mar 15 13 08:37 am  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
aquarelle
Posts: 1,907
Chicago, Illinois, US


Here's my compromise:  The model can bring a female escort.  It's a win-win because it has been my experience that the friend or sister is often "nude-curious" and will sometimes join in posing, or come back on her own to pose.
Mar 15 13 12:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,351
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


Decay of Memory wrote:

It was intended to be remedial?

Anything would be at this point.

Mar 15 13 07:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
7imaging
Posts: 751
Tampa, Florida, US


I had a model, give me the "Can I bring an MUA as an escort" line. Because I never met her, or hadnt known her through mutual friends, I said she could. Turned out her 'MUA', was her Mother. From now on, I wanna see the MUA's book/website before agreeing to something like this.
Mar 15 13 07:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Light and Lens Studio
Posts: 1,337
Sisters, Oregon, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:

Oh well in that case lol.

I made a promise too. I promised I would never work with a model who wasn't mature or adult enough to make her own life decisions and who needed to negotiate her daddy's approval and make promises to placate him. Or one who needed to use a promise she made to daddy as a way to justify her fear and insecurity.

Was this model 15? Because it doesn't sound like an adult.

Whoooo Hooooo

+1

Mar 15 13 07:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Decay of Memory
Posts: 581
Asheville, North Carolina, US


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:

Anything would be at this point.

Undoubtedly.

I suppose the whole escort thing could be considered an ongoing remedial conversation.

Mar 15 13 08:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andy Durazo
Posts: 24,420
Los Angeles, California, US


IBL


popcorn
Mar 15 13 08:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,366
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Since an MUA is not an escort, it's not a compromise of any kind.
Mar 16 13 04:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,366
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Danielle Hieronimi wrote:

I don't understand why models insist on having someone present the entire shoot. I'm comfortable enough with having a male friend or my boyfriend drop me off and say hi to the photographer for a minute before coming by at the end of the shoot to pick me up.

Thankfully, you are part of the vast majority of models that use a driver. It is a very sensible safety precaution that;s quite effective.

Mar 16 13 04:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,366
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Danielle Kitten wrote:
I don't understand why a bodyguard is so hated.

I you REALLY don't understand, then you haven't been paying attention.

Danielle Kitten wrote:
[b]I live my life like a horror movie

That explains a lot.

Mar 16 13 04:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,366
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Patchouli Nyx wrote:
how is this thread not like all the other 4,500,294 escort threads on MM?

And how are the current active threads about pubic hair different than all the other times that it's been discussed?

Escort threads are no more repetitive than thousands of other topics that have been beaten to death without resolution.

Mar 16 13 04:36 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,366
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Brianne Leary wrote:
What if the MUAH happens to be a family member?
My sister is a licensed cosmetologist. She hasn't been with me to every shoot, so far only one, with another planned for next month (with the same photographer though).

Either way, I don't bring my boyfriend or a male figure as my "escort" unless it's a shoot with one of our friends that happens to do photography as a hobby, and they've known each other way before then anyway.

Right now since I don't drive, I "require" an escort most of the time, and unless there is something for them to do nearby they are going to stick close to the shooting location. They're never up in the business of the photo shoot though.
But if the photographer still doesn't agree with that, that's fine, and we both move on to find different people to work with.

That would be a driver, not an escort.

Most of the confusion about this issue is the terminology is ambiguous. Most photographers that do not allow escorts define an escort is someone that insists on remaining in the shooting area during the shoot.

Someone that drops you off is not an escort.

Mar 16 13 04:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,366
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


R Byron Johnson wrote:

Actually yeah it would.  I mean it wouldn't thwart a serial killer or anything but it would help thwart some pervy douche who wanted to hit on the model or try to convince the model to get "nekkid" after she has already stated she doesn't want to do that.

No...it wouldn't.

I could link you to hundreds of posts by models over the years that brought escorts, and STILL had to endure the very behavior that they brought the escort to avoid, from inappropriate comments to actual touching.

Mar 16 13 04:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photographe
Posts: 2,350
Bristol, England, United Kingdom


First question agencies ask for TF work is "is there a make-up artist?".

Some internet models seem very keen to do their own make-up.

There's a danger of a photographer ending up paying for a family to have a make-over session, rather than a clear-headed, focused model coming to work for someone else.

Sending a second model or mua to a nude or implied shoot, or in a stranger's house, is reasonable. Armed boyfriend's grandmother who can't shut up, is not.

If I were a model, I would be wanting a make-up artist at every shoot, I'm not here for the money, but for the creativity, so my portfolio would be more important than bringing my family. I'd want the next pictures to take me to the next level.

If you really need a security guard instead of a mua or company, is that really worth the trouble for pictures, which might not even be useful for your portfolio?
Mar 16 13 04:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


Image K wrote:

No...it wouldn't.

I could link you to hundreds of posts by models over the years that brought escorts, and STILL had to endure the very behavior that they brought the escort to avoid, from inappropriate comments to actual touching.

Then do it.  Seriously.  I get tired of people making such exaggerated anecdotal claims and never backing them up.  So yes, please show me these "hundreds of posts", not just one or two.

Mar 18 13 01:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24,078
Toulon, Provence-Alpes-Côte-d'Azur, France


Michael Pandolfo wrote:
On another note...why is everyone looking for an escort compromise? Here's the compromise. If you require an escort to accompany you to our shoot, shoot with someone else. That's my compromise.

If anyone says "safety" in the same sentence as "escort" then they don't work with me. Period. If someone says "I need a ride from my friend" then that's fine, "safe" no.

So far, in my years of doing this, I haven't once been asked by a paying client if I'm safe or to provide references. But, somehow, when it's free, I'm a danger and need to be vetted.

It's crazy!



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Mar 18 13 01:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:

If anyone says "safety" in the same sentence as "escort" then they don't work with me. Period. If someone says "I need a ride from my friend" then that's fine, "safe" no.

So far, in my years of doing this, I haven't once been asked by a paying client if I'm safe or to provide references. But, somehow, when it's free, I'm a danger and need to be vetted.

It's crazy!



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Eh, I think you're just taking it too damn personally.  It would seem pretty stupid for a model to be more concerned about hurting the poor photographer's feelings than with her own safety.

Mar 18 13 01:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24,078
Toulon, Provence-Alpes-Côte-d'Azur, France


R Byron Johnson wrote:
Eh, I think you're just taking it too damn personally.  It would seem pretty stupid for a model to be more concerned about hurting the poor photographer's feelings than with her own safety.

I'm not too worried about hurting models feelings.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Mar 18 13 01:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
maso-arts
Posts: 1,104
Cincinnati, Ohio, US


I shoot mostly fetish, and more often than not it's in a hotel room.  I've never had a fetish model ask to bring an escort.  Never.  And they are at the greatest risk, right?  I mean, what with meeting a creepy old photographer (who is old enough in most cases be their father) in a hotel room, and then he's going to tie them up?  Damn.  It's amazing any of them live past the 2nd or 3rd shoot.

The first time I did a shoot in a hotel room, I asked the model beforehand if she wanted a MUA; her reply was "Won't another person just be in the way?".  She was right.  My compromise is to not shoot with models who demand an escort, nor do I belittle them for it.
Mar 18 13 02:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:

I'm not too worried about hurting models feelings.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Then you likewise shouldn't expect them too worry about offending you either.

Mar 18 13 03:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Nico Simon Princely
Posts: 1,761
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


My compromise:

If you and your escort would like to take me out for sushi so I can get to know him/her. I might be open to allowing them if  they are cool and stay out of the way.

smile
Mar 18 13 03:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,366
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


R Byron Johnson wrote:
Then do it.  Seriously.  I get tired of people making such exaggerated anecdotal claims and never backing them up.  So yes, please show me these "hundreds of posts", not just one or two.

I've posted them repeatedly. Do a search, seriously, and you will find them.

You get "tired" of people making claims after your whole 2 months on MM, Sir Lancelot?

Hang around a while, gather some experience, and we'll have this conversation again.

Mar 19 13 03:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,366
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


R Byron Johnson wrote:
Then you likewise shouldn't expect them too worry about offending you either.

A little defensive much?

I'm sure he doesn't care whether they worry about offending him.

Mar 19 13 03:01 am  Link  Quote 
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