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first12
Photographer
Sedition
Posts: 273
Buffalo, New York, US


Danielle Kitten wrote:
They want us to send ALL paying assignments to them so they can screen the request and make sure it's real and that we're getting the payment we deserve.

On the bright side, I will totally shoot TF with you if I am ever in your area! big_smile Sounds like you got a bum deal, sorry about that...

Mar 15 13 03:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Abby Hawkins
Posts: 2,002
Boston, Massachusetts, US


I can't tell you how many "agencies" are in the Boston area that aren't actually agencies.

I once went with a fashion design colleague to this agency in western Massachusetts.  We were looking for models to be part of a senior-year runway show for an art college in Boston.  My jaw hit the floor when I came in.  It was essentially someone's basement, with a desk and a shoddily made placard...the girls were all local high school girls who wouldn't get a real job outside of a fashion show at their high school...

And the kicker is that both the girls and the owner of the "agency" were some of the self-absorbed, arrogant women you'd ever meet.

Pretty happy that my agency was a legit agency.  My jobs were maybe one or two a month due to my size (and I think they only signed me on because their commercial wing does a lot of baby/child modeling and they need "moms" as well), but I could do my own thing as well.  Granted, they'd put me out to pasture as of a few years ago, but that's another story.
Mar 15 13 03:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 3,764
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Sedition wrote:

On the bright side, I will totally shoot TF with you if I am ever in your area! big_smile Sounds like you got a bum deal, sorry about that...

Well hurry and get down here! Haha but no I would love to shoot with you as well. I just took a sneak peek at your port.

Mar 15 13 04:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


Death of Field wrote:

So if you have been in the scene that long what is your problem?
I've only been in the "art modeling/photography/internet" since 2005 & I have a rather large list of amazing art models who travel the country and local, as well as local models both men and women for pretty much any project that comes my way.


I JUST did a casting this month for a new project and in less then 8 days I got 8 sets of casting photos sent to the director. 6 of those 8 came to my studio for the casting images. 3 have been chosen the shoot is late April.

If you're so much more experienced than I with your time in the game, you might want to look in the mirror for your issues.

For what you shoot there are tons of models.  Congrats.

Not ONE of your models in your MM port would fit my aesthetic.  Not one.

Mar 15 13 05:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,725
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


bencook2 wrote:
To what end? 

Is not the main reason for having an agency... work?  Yes, helping you stay clear of that photographer that you always regret shooting with is helpful.  And having someone to collect your money is nice.



collecting for one job every quarter is the rest worth it if you view being a model as a profession?  Especially if they are advising you to turn down fun, creative, lucrative art work... 

Again... if we can be honest.  90% of all models at "B" grade agencies are not working and likely could be.

What are you giving up to have a bill collector and someone that books you two shoots with great photographers (likely at YOUR expense).

Give in to your feelings.  Let it flow through you.  FEEL the power of the Art-Side.

Yes the main reason for having a ( Fashion modelling )  agency is work - but that is fashion work not art work and that generally clocks in at least $100 an hour and could go as high as $3000 plus  ...Agencies  help models stay clear of photographers  they may regret shooting with , and as well style and quality of work  that may diminish the models marketability - and some agencies are quite ruthless about protecting this

In my experience - the 90 per cent of ( agency ) fashion models who are not doing it full time are generally doing other productive things such as going to school/college /university or working ( often jobs that are flexible enough to allow them model occassionally as well )
These 90 per cent may be professional models ( given their looks and skills ) however modelling is not their primary profession

I think its also fair to say that we live in a culture that is Fashion Modelling obsessed ... and a lot of young aspring models devour  related magazines and television programming in the hopes of become the next fashion ( not art ) supermodel - which may be a one in a million long shot but

that is the dream , and being "agency signed " at least gives them a ticket in such a lottery

Mar 15 13 05:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


bencook2 wrote:

For what you shoot there are tons of models.  Congrats.
Not ONE of your models in your MM port would fit my aesthetic.  Not one.

No one cares what the aesthetic is, if you want to shoot 16-20 year olds then network with 16-20 year old models.

Yes many of the traveling models are older, they usually have to be out of High School before they hit the road.

Even if you came to me and said
"I need a Caucasian light skinned 18-20 female no tattoos clean skin"
I'm sure I could get you several models to choose from with in a week.

Mar 15 13 05:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,725
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


oopsie , dp
Mar 15 13 05:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25,351
Portland, Oregon, US


Patchouli Nyx wrote:
How many good art models do you need and what are you trying to do with them?

are you just trying tfp or are you willing to pay?


I understand things can be harsh when you first start out (it took me months and the help of a couple of photographer friends to get hooked up with the right sort of models) but in the case of stretch marks and tats, a good MUA can cover lots of what you don't want.
bencook2 wrote:
I am hardly just starting out.  And I pay every model. 

I sell my work.   

I don't know everything... but I have been around the marriage of the Interwebz and Modeling since is was Heather Pariso, Janeen Lee and Anna Lieb on SouthEastern Model Forum, Fashion Only Forum, and Garage Glamour.

Well if you've been around longer than earth itself and you actually pay models (rather than begging for tfp) I can't imagine what the problem is that you can't find enough people to work with.   Seriously.

Though despite your reference to FOF it sounds to me like you're looking more for "glamour" models rather than "art" models.


Nevertheless, if you have a wad of cash, there's lots of them around as well.

Mar 15 13 06:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


He needs MET art style models aged 16-20 with "clothes" on....
Gazing at the camera innocently shot in natural light...

Pretty small genre but not that hard to work with, oh wait he ALSO expects a teenager to be um professional and responsible...

That is the funny part.
Mar 15 13 07:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


Death of Field wrote:
He needs MET art style models aged 16-20 with "clothes" on....
Gazing at the camera innocently shot in natural light...

Pretty small genre but not that hard to work with, oh wait he ALSO expects a teenager to be um professional and responsible...

That is the funny part.

Is your attitude helpful?  Really? 

No I just want what my page clearly reads. 

and it does not read: "I need a Caucasian light skinned 18-20 female no tattoos clean skin"   There is MUCH more.  I'm sure you can find tons of "I need a Caucasian light skinned 18-20 female no tattoos clean skin" .  But sadly that's only part of the equation.

I'm done with you.  The obvious troll is obvious.   


OH and PS... you just told on yourself with this diddy...  "No one cares what the aesthetic is"  Ha... so telling.  So very telling.

Mar 15 13 08:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


Patchouli Nyx wrote:

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
How many good art models do you need and what are you trying to do with them?

are you just trying tfp or are you willing to pay?


I understand things can be harsh when you first start out (it took me months and the help of a couple of photographer friends to get hooked up with the right sort of models) but in the case of stretch marks and tats, a good MUA can cover lots of what you don't want.

Well if you've been around longer than earth itself and you actually pay models (rather than begging for tfp) I can't imagine what the problem is that you can't find enough people to work with.   Seriously.

Though despite your reference to FOF it sounds to me like you're looking more for "glamour" models rather than "art" models.


Nevertheless, if you have a wad of cash, there's lots of them around as well.

No I can't find enough to work with.  Sometimes I even have large budgets.  I've taken to trips to the Ukraine to find pro models with fashion good looks and professional attitudes.  I'll likely be in Kiev the next trip.  The last three were in Odessa. Those agencies don't care at all if the models do nudes.   And they put girls on covers just like Ford.  And the models are beautiful. 

This has somehow turned into why I can't find models rather than the "agency" thing.   

In most of Europe you can get yer kit off for some photos and still sell commercial.  They don't care.  Because "nude" doesn't equal "judgement" like it does here.

I guess all I'm saying is... if you don't want to work with me.  Fine.  GOOD even.  But don't let it be because some idiot told you not to.  Let be because YOU don't want to. 

I stopped having my feelings hurt by models turning me down long ago.  This thread has already helped one model.  And probably a few more that won't chime in. 

But it's page two... it's off topic and infested with a troll or two.

Till next time.

Mar 15 13 08:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


Aesthetics don't matter, business does.

I know photographers that cast for ALL sorts of models.
Pretty much anything at all between the hundred or so that I know.

Some like older women, some like young, some want redheads, others want Latin, some need large women with rolls and rolls of fat, and yet again others want six pack abs.

Yet the common thread is some of these guy cast well and never have any issues have tons of models to choose from. They learned how to network and the market to find what they are looking for. Others claim there are "not enough models to choose from" They are just looking in the wrong place with the wrong offer.
Mar 15 13 08:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,725
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


bencook2 wrote:

No I can't find enough to work with.  Sometimes I even have large budgets.  I've taken to trips to the Ukraine to find pro models with fashion good looks and professional attitudes.  I'll likely be in Kiev the next trip.  The last three were in Odessa. Those agencies don't care at all if the models do nudes.   And they put girls on covers just like Ford.  And the models are beautiful. 

This has somehow turned into why I can't find models rather than the "agency" thing.   

In most of Europe you can get yer kit off for some photos and still sell commercial.  They don't care.  Because "nude" doesn't equal "judgement" like it does here.

I guess all I'm saying is... if you don't want to work with me.  Fine.  GOOD even.  But don't let it be because some idiot told you not to.  Let be because YOU don't want to. 

I stopped having my feelings hurt by models turning me down long ago.  This thread has already helped one model.  And probably a few more that won't chime in. 

But it's page two... it's off topic and infested with a troll or two.

Till next time.

yes there will always be the poorer areas of the world where models can be exploited by paying them $ to do photoshoots in genres that they might not normally chose to do

Mar 15 13 08:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


Garry k wrote:
yes there will always be the poorer areas of the world where models can be exploited by paying them $ to do photoshoots in genres that they might not normally chose to do

*nods*

Mar 15 13 08:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Paige Morgan
Posts: 4,058
New York, New York, US


Garry k wrote:
yes there will always be the poorer areas of the world where models can be exploited by paying them $ to do photoshoots in genres that they might not normally chose to do

True that. You can then sell the selfie images of a model you can no longer get in contact with, but sincerely promise her proceeds later, maybe, if you find her. Because you're totally worried, but not so worried you want to lose profit margin if 6 months down the line you find out she retired/was hurt/whatever.

http://the-photo-journey.blogspot.com/

I initially thought this post was just frustration at being turned down, but apparently it's a semi white knight ish strawman for crappy business practices, and those practices are what might be creating the rejections.

Mar 15 13 08:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


Paige Morgan wrote:
True that. You can then sell the images of a llama you can no longer get in contact with, but sincerely promise her proceeds later, maybe.

http://the-photo-journey.blogspot.com/

I initially thought this post was just frustration at being turned down, but apparently it's a white knight ish strawman for crappy business practices, and those practices are what might be creating the rejections.

When you are the middle man you have TWO clients.
The person buying from you, AND the person you are selling the job to.

You have to sell just as much to the llamas as your buyers.
Else you have no images to sell to your clients.

Simple marketing.

Mar 15 13 09:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25,351
Portland, Oregon, US


Patchouli Nyx wrote:
How many good art models do you need and what are you trying to do with them?

are you just trying tfp or are you willing to pay?


I understand things can be harsh when you first start out (it took me months and the help of a couple of photographer friends to get hooked up with the right sort of models) but in the case of stretch marks and tats, a good MUA can cover lots of what you don't want.
Patchouli Nyx wrote:
Well if you've been around longer than earth itself and you actually pay models (rather than begging for tfp) I can't imagine what the problem is that you can't find enough people to work with.   Seriously.

Though despite your reference to FOF it sounds to me like you're looking more for "glamour" models rather than "art" models.


Nevertheless, if you have a wad of cash, there's lots of them around as well.
bencook2 wrote:
No I can't find enough to work with.  Sometimes I even have large budgets.  I've taken to trips to the Ukraine to find pro models with fashion good looks and professional attitudes.  I'll likely be in Kiev the next trip.  The last three were in Odessa. Those agencies don't care at all if the models do nudes.   And they put girls on covers just like Ford.  And the models are beautiful.

WHOA!
you travel to the Ukraine to find models to pose for your photos you in turn sell????

What exactly are you selling photographically to have such a huge budget?

bencook2 wrote:
This has somehow turned into why I can't find models rather than the "agency" thing.

It's on point because you started the thread trying to get models who have an agency to work with you....an art photographer with such a huge budget you can and have to travel to the ex-USSR and grab models.

I know a lot of art photographers who even with ok gallery sales would barely make enough $$ for a plane ride to the Ukraine.

bencook2 wrote:
In most of Europe you can get yer kit off for some photos and still sell commercial.  They don't care.  Because "nude" doesn't equal "judgement" like it does here.

yes that's because europe isn't as uptight about bodies as the US is.  We're filled with Puritans at heart who still associate the naked body with sex, dirty, unGodlike and sin.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
I guess all I'm saying is... if you don't want to work with me.  Fine.  GOOD even.  But don't let it be because some idiot told you not to.  Let be because YOU don't want to. 

I stopped having my feelings hurt by models turning me down long ago.  This thread has already helped one model.  And probably a few more that won't chime in. 

But it's page two... it's off topic and infested with a troll or two.

Till next time.

I don't see anyone trolling, I just see people who don't really understand why you couldn't find models.

Now that you've explained that you're looking for young hot skinny white girls who are willing to flash tits and bits and/or stay fully clothed for a little cash and no questions asked, it makes moresense.

Mar 15 13 11:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25,351
Portland, Oregon, US


Death of Field wrote:
He needs MET art style models aged 16-20 with "clothes" on....
Gazing at the camera innocently shot in natural light...

Pretty small genre but not that hard to work with, oh wait he ALSO expects a teenager to be um professional and responsible...

That is the funny part.

lol!

I'm just having a hard time imagining who is buying...what...sets? of clothed girls next door with comehitherlooks?

It's that lucrative a market?


who knew.


but I wouldn't really call that "art" photography.

Mar 15 13 11:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mark
Posts: 2,889
New York, New York, US


Bravo Ben- well said!
Mar 15 13 11:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


jealous trolls...

and thanks for posting my link!  MORE Sales!
Mar 16 13 10:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


Garry k wrote:

yes there will always be the poorer areas of the world where models can be exploited by paying them $ to do photoshoots in genres that they might not normally chose to do

Really?  Some of these models are here on MM.  Agents too.  Why don't you just crusade on over and ask them if they feel exploited.

Stereotype much?  Your characterization of these "poorer areas" is offensive.  All you have done is display your ignorance and jealousy for the public to see.  You probably don't know it... but you have characterized some very professional people as incapable of making a professional decision.  You have characterized them as whores scrapping by on the money from westerners.  If you had any clue what you were talking about you would know that is FAR from the case.

I feel very sorry for you and your limited scope of the world.  Because I don't think you made a mistake.  I think you really believe what you said.

Mar 16 13 10:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Danielle Kitten wrote:
I'm represented by an agency and I'm exclusive with them. They want us to send ALL paying assignments to them so they can screen the request and make sure it's real and that we're getting the payment we deserve. So far I've been approached by 1 paying assignment and it turned out to be a scam (or the guy changed his mind). I'm not the best girl there so I haven't gotten any jobs I. The 4 months I've been with them. I know some girls here lie to make themselves look bigger than they are, but some might actually be telling the truth (or they just don't want to work with you)

The same agency that you mentioned takes a 40% cut of any work and who only has one client...a beverage company? AND you signed an exclusive year-long contract with them?

I think this is the type of "agency" the OP and Good Egg are referring.

Mar 16 13 10:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,725
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


bencook2 wrote:
Really?  Some of these models are here on MM.  Agents too.  Why don't you just crusade on over and ask them if they feel exploited.

Stereotype much?  Your characterization of these "poorer areas" is offensive.  All you have done is display your ignorance and jealousy for the public to see.  You probably don't know it... but you have characterized some very professional people as incapable of making a professional decision.  You have characterized them as whores scrapping by on the money from westerners.  If you had any clue what you were talking about you would know that is FAR from the case.

I feel very sorry for you and your limited scope of the world.  Because I don't think you made a mistake.  I think you really believe what you said.

I am fully aware there are many professional agencies , and  fashion models from Eastern Euro , Russia and the Ukraine - and I see from your port that you have shot a few

and that it must be very different where you live ( in South Carolina )

I think you can figure out the answer to your current problem

Mar 16 13 02:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 3,764
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:

The same agency that you mentioned takes a 40% cut of any work and who only has one client...a beverage company? AND you signed an exclusive year-long contract with them?

I think this is the type of "agency" the OP and Good Egg are referring.

They have more clients...mostly alcohol and energy drinks and one Government Cell phone company. I've already been shown the errors of my ways and i feel like a complete idiot. I was excited and hopeful. Pretty sure they kicked me out of the agency now. They deleted my model fan page on FB because I cussed out one of their photographers for calling me a worthless, classless, whiny brat. (Yes I'm getting my attitude I'm check as well. Models aren't suppose to act in such a way)

Mar 16 13 08:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Hieronimi
Posts: 238
Chicago, Illinois, US


bencook2 wrote:

Really?  Some of these models are here on MM.  Agents too.  Why don't you just crusade on over and ask them if they feel exploited.

Stereotype much?  Your characterization of these "poorer areas" is offensive.  All you have done is display your ignorance and jealousy for the public to see.  You probably don't know it... but you have characterized some very professional people as incapable of making a professional decision.  You have characterized them as whores scrapping by on the money from westerners.  If you had any clue what you were talking about you would know that is FAR from the case.

I feel very sorry for you and your limited scope of the world.  Because I don't think you made a mistake.  I think you really believe what you said.

+100

Mar 16 13 08:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 16,636
El Segundo, California, US


Moderator Warning!

bencook2 wrote:
Stereotype much?  Your characterization of these "poorer areas" is offensive.  All you have done is display your ignorance and jealousy for the public to see.  You probably don't know it... but you have characterized some very professional people as incapable of making a professional decision.  You have characterized them as whores scrapping by on the money from westerners.  If you had any clue what you were talking about you would know that is FAR from the case.

You might want to  consider not taking offense for things that the person you're accusing didn't write. You can take offense, obviously, but when it's based on what you feel they might have said instead of what they said, it tends to make the thread go downhill even faster.

You might want to strongly consider not trolling.

Mar 17 13 12:56 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachel-Elise
Posts: 1,650
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Dani Nikole Feist wrote:

Cookies are fucking delicious

I made homemade Oreos last night. B-)

Mar 17 13 07:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David M Russell
Posts: 1,083
New York, New York, US


Rachel-Elise  wrote:
I made homemade Oreos last night. B-)

What!? I never even considered that. Great idea.

I'd make them twice the normal size.

Mar 17 13 07:19 am  Link  Quote 
Model
V Laroche
Posts: 2,745
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


bencook2 wrote:

For what you shoot there are tons of models.  Congrats.

Not ONE of your models in your MM port would fit my aesthetic.  Not one.

If you're having such a hard time getting models, maybe you should adjust your aesthetic and make life a little easier for yourself.

Mar 17 13 10:11 am  Link  Quote 
Model
V Laroche
Posts: 2,745
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


Oh, I just checked out your "art" site. Yes, I would characterize your artistic aesthetic as very John Singer Sargent. Such poetry!
Mar 17 13 10:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,144
New York, New York, US


ChiMo wrote:
Their agency might be Instagram.

I have a feeling this might not be a sarcastic post.

Two weeks posting on Instagram has been better for me than everything I've done cumulatively in the past five years.

Mar 17 13 01:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Misty R H
Posts: 471
Anaheim, California, US


bencook2 wrote:
But for the other 99.99% of you models who might have an "agent" of some kind... what are you giving up?  I mean really?  How many jobs did your agency book you last year?  Last month?

What kind of fun, and MONEY are you giving up by not working with "art" photographers?

Admit it... your agency is at best a fashion accessory that you wear more as a badge than it is a useful professional tool.

We might disagree on the definition of "model"... but it's never been someone who has an agent that rarely books them any work.

Come on over to the art side...  the waters nice... and we have free cookies.

I am a commercial model and I am agency represented.  I am not giving up anything by having my agency because my contract is non-exclusive.  I am open to working with "art" photographers, but I know with my age that my work is mainstream commercial.


La Lana  wrote:
Sometimes even "legit" agencies aren't find people work allll the time.  Commercial work tends to be more part time.

+1.  My agency is legit.  Do I get alot of work? No.  But I am submitted for legitimate work with real companies. Just the other day I was on a casting call for Ray Ban.  As La Lana said, commercial work (especially for a mature model like me) is part time.  I don't expect to make a living at it.


AJScalzitti wrote:
Seriously I don't think it's difficult to tell when you look at a models profile or stats if they are with some scam "agency".

When looking at a model's stats...keep in mind legitimate agencies represent more than fashion models.   Legitimate agencies also represent commercial models.  My stats clearly show that I am not a fashion or run way model, but that doesn't mean that my agency is scam.    IMHO it is best to judge each model on a case by case basis rather than making blanket assumptions.

Mar 17 13 04:52 pm  Link  Quote 
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