Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
As the title suggests, this post is specifically directed to photographers who hire models...
Where do you sit, on the topic of deposits?
Have you ever paid a deposit to a model? If so, for what percentage of his/her overall payment?
I have never, ever, required a deposit, because I have never, ever been cancelled on by a photographer. Though this IS a business arrangement (I claim modeling work on my taxes- this is my livelihood), I sometimes have a difficult time treating artists as I would a client in the "real world". I think "no photographer would go for that."
Why am I considering it, now?
I just had a painter book me for 12 consecutive Sundays, for 6-hour sessions, and got left waiting at the train station more than once because he "made other plans". I turned down lots of other recurring work, and am now a bit wary- after having about half my expected income for 3 months wiped out.
I'm about to do a tour as a traveling model (my first in a few years), and am wondering how to proceed. Do I let one bad apple spoil the whole bunch?
I don't know whether to just keep on, business as usual, or try to do something to cover myself.
Is there a way to meet in the middle? I don't WANT to charge anyone a deposit. In 8 years, I've never been stiffed by a photographer.
I am an artist and I am appalled by that other artist's attitude and treatment of you.
I have never paid a deposit to a model, but there are a few traveling models that I am dying to work with here that do require a deposit. I would not hesitate paying them their deposit because they are well respected and booked pretty solid. I think I would be a little hesitant to pay a deposit to a model I do know know well or have not seen having much activity here on MM.
Even though you said you have never asked for a deposit, I think in your case where that artist was asking for 12 consecutive Sundays, you SHOULD have asked for a small deposit or "cancellation fee". He was asking for a lot in advance in my opinion, and I think you should have too.
Matt Knowles
Posts: 3,520
Ferndale, California, US
I wouldn't consider a model that requires a deposit. I've been flaked on way too much. The offer of payment seems about the only way to get models to the studio these days. Unless it was in an escrow account it would be too much risk, and using an escrow account is an expense and hassle I'd rather do without.
The only time I really see fit for a llama to suggest a deposit is when traveling. Even then, I suggest a relatively small deposit of $50. And, it's a refundable deposit once I'm there. I feel it's a fair compromise.
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
MainePaintah wrote: I am an artist and I am appalled by that other artist's attitude and treatment of you.
I have never paid a deposit to a model, but there are a few traveling models that I am dying to work with here that do require a deposit. I would not hesitate paying them their deposit because they are well respected and booked pretty solid. I think I would be a little hesitant to pay a deposit to a model I do know know well or have not seen having much activity here on MM.
Even though you said you have never asked for a deposit, I think in your case where that artist was asking for 12 consecutive Sundays, you SHOULD have asked for a small deposit or "cancellation fee". He was asking for a lot in advance in my opinion, and I think you should have too.
It was really frustrating. The trip is a 2-hour train ride on the commuter rail, and showing up to get turned around...no bueno.
Our first Sunday, he cancelled.
The second Sunday, there was a state of emergency- everything was shut down. Third Sunday, I went, and it was great!
The fourth, I showed up, and he didn't.
The fifth, I called before boarding and he said he'd made other plans. He said he didn't remember asking me for 12 days (I have it in emails).
He asked for the next three Sundays; I told him to put it in an email immediately. He didn't.
Called later to say winter is a bad time of the year for him and he didn't feel like it.
This all coming from someone who is a regular at a drop-in I've been posing for, for years. For the first time, ever, he didn't show up to that last week, either.
I agree with you, and think that for long engagements, I should ask for something up front. Hadn't thought of it that way- "He's asking for a lot up front."
I would only pay a deposit to a model I've shot with before. But then if we have already shot before and know each other a deposit wouldn't really be needed. So I guess the answer in the end is no, I wouldn't pay a deposit
I would say since you only have 1 bad experience in 8 years you are doing fine. Granted it was a big deal he canceled since it was repeat work, but I wouldn't let one person ruin it just yet.
It was really frustrating. The trip is a 2-hour train ride on the commuter rail, and showing up to get turned around...no bueno.
Our first Sunday, he cancelled.
The second Sunday, there was a state of emergency- everything was shut down. Third Sunday, I went, and it was great!
The fourth, I showed up, and he didn't.
The fifth, I called before boarding and he said he'd made other plans. He said he didn't remember asking me for 12 days (I have it in emails).
He asked for the next three Sundays; I told him to put it in an email immediately. He didn't.
Called later to say winter is a bad time of the year for him and he didn't feel like it.
This all coming from someone who is a regular at a drop-in I've been posing for, for years. For the first time, ever, he didn't show up to that last week, either.
I agree with you, and think that for long engagements, I should ask for something up front. Hadn't thought of it that way- "He's asking for a lot up front."
Indeed.
How many times do you have to get kicked in the teeth before not going there?
I don't pay deposits. But then again I'm a company that's been around awhile, lease permanent studio space, etc. But then again, I've never been asked to pay one either. But I have my no ready in any case.
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
MainePaintah wrote: there are a few traveling models that I am dying to work with here that do require a deposit. I would not hesitate paying them their deposit because they are well respected and booked pretty solid.
This is where I stand. Typically booked solid, well-known, great references all over this site and elsewhere.
Matt Knowles wrote: I wouldn't consider a model that requires a deposit. I've been flaked on way too much. The offer of payment seems about the only way to get models to the studio these days. Unless it was in an escrow account it would be too much risk, and using an escrow account is an expense and hassle I'd rather do without.
This is how I think all photographers feel.
I don't know how to strike a balance if everyone is worried about getting fucked over.
How can I save myself, and not put myself at a disadvantage by scaring off those who have stances such as "I would never consider a model who requires a deposit"?, of which there are many?
I am a professional. I have never, in my life, flaked on a single shoot. Most people who so much as glance at my page/work could deduce such...but...if everyone's worried about the same thing, how can anyone prevent themselves from getting burned, if they're accommodating others looking out for the same thing?
I require a deposit for every shoot I do when traveling. The deposit is for the first hour. Every photographer I've worked with while traveling has paid it. I've got a lot of references though.
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
John Allan wrote:
How many times do you have to get kicked in the teeth before not going there?
I don't pay deposits. But then again I'm a company that's been around awhile, lease permanent studio space, etc. But then again, I've never been asked to pay one either. But I have my no ready in any case.
I REALLY wanted to try making something work, because if it did, it's about $1000 each month in my pocket.
Having nothing else for my Sundays, I was just being stubborn.
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Tiffiney C wrote: I require a deposit for every shoot I do when traveling. The deposit is for the first hour. Every photographer I've worked with while traveling has paid it. I've got a lot of references though.
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Jerry Nemeth wrote: I have never paid a deposit to a traveling llama. I have always had the shoot with the llama that I booked. Check out the photographer!
The artist who screwed me over, is someone I've worked with more than a dozen times, and comes with great references.
I'm assuming you wouldn't work with them if they didn't pay it! So, of course every photographer you have worked with has paid it.
How many have said no?
Most of them are fine with it and understand. Some complain. I used to budge on it and then 90% of the time that photographer would flake. I don't budge on it anymore. I book multiple shoots on my traveling days regardless so it's only a matter of weeding out the less serious for me.
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Tiffiney C wrote:
Most of them are fine with it and understand. Some complain. I used to budge on it and then 90% of the time that photographer would flake. I don't budge on it anymore. I book multiple shoots on my traveling days regardless so it's only a matter of weeding out the less serious for me.
The artist who screwed me over, is someone I've worked with more than a dozen times, and comes with great references.
I am guessing that maybe he had a "cash flow' setback or some kind of money trouble if he worked with you before and then stiffed you recently.
You said that you are going on tour, but that you had toured a while back. How was the "flake ratio" back then? Did you lose money/ Did you do well? Did you ask for deposits then? Did you wish you asked for deposits then?
I see a lot of models say they have a deposit policy
I see a lot of models never actually getting those deposits, and they let it slide when they become desperate to book work.
The only thing Ive ever seen that I have any amount of faith in working, is the pen/pencil policy.
If you put down a deposit, your time/date is written on the schedule in pen, it is 100% yours forever and always no takebacks.
If you refuse to put down a deposit, you go on the schedule in pencil. If someone else comes along, is willing to make a deposit, and wants your time/date...you get bumped out. If someone doesnt come along with a deposit, youre still good to go. Chances that someone is A) willing to put down a deposit and B) wants your exact spot that you werent willing to "reserve" are slim, so this wont scare people away.
IE: people willing to put down deposits get the best pick of date/times and dont have to hear "oh that wont work, I think I already have a booking on saturday for only two hours but right in the middle of the day rendering the rest of my day kind of worthless....how about tuesday when you need to be at work with your real job?"
The biggest issue with this policy is selling it in a way that doesnt make the person who is only willing to be scheduled in pencil feel like youre going to cancel on them just for the fun of it/make them feel like theyre unimportant to you, because god knows they need to be the center of your universe and always be given warm fuzzies, and this is ART not about money! The hell with your bills why dont you trust them (the person from the internet that you dont know)
*cough*
Edit: also be clear that its a deposit that goes toward the total of the shoot, not a booking fee youre taking for the sole purpose of reserving a spot on top of your shoot rate.
Ive seen a few girls try the latter, doesnt work. Ive seen a few girls not be CLEAR and made people THINK they were doing the latter...also didnt work
The artist who screwed me over, is someone I've worked with more than a dozen times, and comes with great references.
I am sorry to hear this. If for some reason I had to miss the shoot I think that I would pay the model. I always try to make sure that my shoots occur.
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
MainePaintah wrote:
I am guessing that maybe he had a "cash flow' setback or some kind of money trouble if he worked with you before and then stiffed you recently.
You said that you are going on tour, but that you had toured a while back. How was the "flake ratio" back then? Did you lose money/ Did you do well? Did you ask for deposits then? Did you wish you asked for deposits then?
I toured every year (sometimes all year) for five years in a row.
Never charged a deposit.
Never had a single flake.
Always came out (way) ahead!
This really threw me for a loop. (I agree that it's probably a cash flow issue)
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I am sorry to hear this. If for some reason I had to miss the shoot I think that I would pay the model. I always try to make sure that my shoots occur.
I really think this must just be one example of someone who is NOT a business person, at all.
I work with another painter twice a week, every single week. We've been working every week for three months now.
He has cancelled on me twice due to family emergencies, and has paid me in full both times.
He had to leave an hour early once, and paid me for that hour.
This is what I am used to, and this is how a contractor's time should be treated.
Shandra Stark wrote: Have you ever paid a deposit to a model? If so, for what percentage of his/her overall payment?
I have never paid a model's deposit. I suspect that I wouldn't if asked.
Shandra Stark wrote: ...
I just had a painter book me for 12 consecutive Sundays, for 6-hour sessions, and got left waiting at the train station more than once because he "made other plans". I turned down lots of other recurring work, and am now a bit wary- after having about half my expected income for 3 months wiped out.
I've very sorry this happened to you. But why blame me for the actions of an allegedly irresponsible painter?
Shandra Stark wrote: Is there a way to meet in the middle? I don't WANT to charge anyone a deposit. In 8 years, I've never been stiffed by a photographer.
Yes. Check references. Don't make such a large commitment with someone you have no reason to trust. Or, for such a large time commitment (6hrs x 12 consecutive weeks), you may be more justified in asking for a deposit or for a documented cancellation fee.
Shandra Stark wrote: However...ya know...fool me once...
But I never fooled you!
>>>>> Tangent Alert >>>>>
A different "deposit scheme" is a popular topic with "flaked upon" photographers -- they ask the models for a deposit, which is refunded when the model shows up on time. I hate these deposit schemes, because it doesn't account for the situations where the photographer fails to show up or otherwise causes the "flake". I also note that the "Where Are My Images" threads are almost as popular as "Flake" threads. So, to me, a "fair" deposit scheme would work something like this:
... Model gives photographer a $30 deposit for a TF* shoot.
... Model shows up.
... Photographer refunds the $30.
... The session happens.
... Photographer gives model a $75 deposit.
... Photographer edits pictures.
... Photographer delivers the expected images on time & in appropriate format.
... Model refunds the $75.
The photographer's deposit is greater because the session has already happened & the model has already contributed all her work (and because the photographer presumably is more financially able). In any case, to my knowledge, no photographer has agreed to such a theme.
<<<<< End Tangent <<<<<
To me, a deposit is a yellow/red flag, saying "I don't trust you". Deposit schemes are inherently one-sided. Photography needs to be fun with me, and I'd rather not work with people who don't trust me, especially since I am confident that all the people I've ever worked with would say nice things about me.
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Apodyopsis wrote: I see a lot of models say they have a deposit policy
I see a lot of models never actually getting those deposits, and they let it slide when they become desperate to book work.
The only thing Ive ever seen that I have any amount of faith in working, is the pen/pencil policy.
If you put down a deposit, your time/date is written on the schedule in pen, it is 100% yours forever and always no takebacks.
If you refuse to put down a deposit, you go on the schedule in pencil. If someone else comes along, is willing to make a deposit, and wants your time/date...you get bumped out. If someone doesnt come along with a deposit, youre still good to go. Chances that someone is A) willing to put down a deposit and B) wants your exact spot that you werent willing to "reserve" are slim, so this wont scare people away.
IE: people willing to put down deposits get the best pick of date/times and dont have to hear "oh that wont work, I think I already have a booking on saturday for only two hours but right in the middle of the day rendering the rest of my day kind of worthless....how about tuesday when you need to be at work with your real job?"
The biggest issue with this policy is selling it in a way that doesnt make the person who is only willing to be scheduled in pencil feel like youre going to cancel on them just for the fun of it/make them feel like theyre unimportant to you, because god knows they need to be the center of your universe and always be given warm fuzzies, and this is ART not about money! The hell with your bills why dont you trust them (the person from the internet that you dont know)
*cough*
Edit: also be clear that its a deposit that goes toward the total of the shoot, not a booking fee youre taking for the sole purpose of reserving a spot on top of your shoot rate.
Ive seen a few girls try the latter, doesnt work. Ive seen a few girls not be CLEAR and made people THINK they were doing the latter...also didnt work
I definitely am always internally at battle with the art vs money thing. I LOVE art! I am an artist! I DO do (ha!) this for the art of it, but, painters charge for their work, and so shall I.
I really like this idea a lot. I guess, without spelling it out as you have, I'm employed the same idea when I create photography workshops.
You want in? Sweet. You want a guarantee?? Deposit.
I agree, that, even as solidly as I tend to book, the chances of somebody bumping someone out of their exact timeslot are slim.
I'll think this over.
Question to all:
Why is it deemed acceptable for a photographer to charge their clients a deposit, but not models (photographers are my clients)?
Why would you pay a deposit for a workshop (I've put together about a half dozen workshops, and all have paid the deposit), but not a model?
Looknsee Photography wrote: I've very sorry this happened to you. But why blame me for the actions of an allegedly irresponsible painter?
For arguments sake...the "because once upon a time one person got burned" is why we check references, isnt it?
once upon a time, many many moons ago, in the time of our fathers fathers.... someone on the internet was not who they said they were, and someone else got screwed over. And now, we check references.
Checking your references is an act of not immediately trusting you.
Just like needing a deposit is an act of not immediately trusting you.
One of them just has to do with parting you from your money.
Usually I can "barrow" a model from the agency so I don't normally hire myself. I do hire for workshops as its only right, the paid attendees don't want to show up with no models. Even then I have had a flake or two on paid jobs cast via MM.
No I would not pay a deposit from a model. Given I have flakes on payed jobs I would be more inclined to ask the model to pay me a deposit.
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Looknsee Photography wrote: Don't make such a large commitment with someone you have no reason to trust. Or, for such a large time commitment (6hrs x 12 consecutive weeks), you may be more justified in asking for a deposit or for a documented cancellation fee.
Cancellation fee sounds less scary, to me, than a deposit.
Though, it seems I'd be in the same bind, unless I had someone sign a quick sentence stating that they'd remit...like...$20...if they cancelled inside of two weeks, and then I invoiced them.
It's all kind of weird to me. I have to pay deposits to most contractors I hire, and even have to pay a fee just to have the privilege of submitting an application for an apartment, in most places.
Shandra Stark wrote: As the title suggests, this post is specifically directed to photographers who hire models...
Where do you sit, on the topic of deposits?
Have you ever paid a deposit to a model? If so, for what percentage of his/her overall payment?
I have never, ever, required a deposit, because I have never, ever been cancelled on by a photographer. Though this IS a business arrangement (I claim modeling work on my taxes- this is my livelihood), I sometimes have a difficult time treating artists as I would a client in the "real world". I think "no photographer would go for that."
Why am I considering it, now?
I just had a painter book me for 12 consecutive Sundays, for 6-hour sessions, and got left waiting at the train station more than once because he "made other plans". I turned down lots of other recurring work, and am now a bit wary- after having about half my expected income for 3 months wiped out.
I'm about to do a tour as a traveling model (my first in a few years), and am wondering how to proceed. Do I let one bad apple spoil the whole bunch?
I don't know whether to just keep on, business as usual, or try to do something to cover myself.
Is there a way to meet in the middle? I don't WANT to charge anyone a deposit. In 8 years, I've never been stiffed by a photographer.
However...ya know...fool me once...
What about requiring a contract for long term deals?
That way, if they back out, you've got something you can sue them on.
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Apodyopsis wrote:
For arguments sake...the "because once upon a time one person got burned" is why we check references, isnt it?
once upon a time, many many moons ago, in the time of our fathers fathers.... someone on the internet was not who they said they were, and someone else got screwed over. And now, we check references.
Checking your references is an act of not immediately trusting you.
Just like needing a deposit is an act of not immediately trusting you.
One of them just has to do with parting you from your money.
One could argue that not agreeing to pay a deposit is an act of not immediately trusting someone...
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Christopher Hartman wrote:
What about requiring a contract for long term deals?
That way, if they back out, you've got something you can sue them on.
I really like the idea of a contract for long term deals. I think it didn't occur to me, because the other painter I work with, is a professional. He NEEDS to finish this painting, so...we work! Every week!
But I cover travel costs to take a model to some on location shoot. Last year I had photo trips to Arizona, Idaho, and New Mexico. And I will cover airfare etc to bring someone I want to work with to Chicago. Longest flight was from Beijing.
Shandra Stark wrote: Cancellation fee sounds less scary, to me, than a deposit.
Though, it seems I'd be in the same bind, unless I had someone sign a quick sentence stating that they'd remit...like...$20...if they cancelled inside of two weeks, and then I invoiced them.
It's all kind of weird to me. I have to pay deposits to most contractors I hire, and even have to pay a fee just to have the privilege of submitting an application for an apartment, in most places.
Cancellation fees are even harder to collect than deposits... Deposits have the incentive of getting to definitely work with you...
Theres no incentive for paying a cancellation fee.
She'll tell her friends? Meh.
She'll black list you on her profile? Meh.
She'll send you a message every week? Block her.
She'll eventually give up because shes wasting her time trying to track down 50 bucks from you that you are never going to pay her? Bingo.
On very rare occasion someone will cancel because something genuinely did come up in their life and they feel terrible, and they'll pay. Especially if they would like to try to book you a second time later and dont want you to turn them down because they were a flake the first time. But typically someone who had every intention of cancelling on you has no intention of ever trying to make it up to you
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
rxz wrote: For a model coming to my area on her dime, no.
But I cover travel costs to take a model to some on location shoot. Last year I had photo trips to Arizona, Idaho, and New Mexico. And I will cover airfare etc to bring someone I want to work with to Chicago. Longest flight was from Beijing.
I would argue that a model coming to your area on her dime, needs more assurance than someone with all travel expenses covered.
Having my flight covered means I am getting on that plane! It also means I'm able to be extremely chill about bookings, as I'm not trying to recoup much, if anything, and any single paid shoot a get, is a mark on the positive side of my books.
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,362
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Apodyopsis wrote:
Cancellation fees are even harder to collect than deposits... Deposits have the incentive of getting to definitely work with you...
Theres no incentive for paying a cancellation fee.
She'll tell her friends? Meh.
She'll black list you on her profile? Meh.
She'll send you a message every week? Block her.
She'll eventually give up because shes wasting her time trying to track down 50 bucks from you that you are never going to pay her? Bingo.
On very rare occasion someone will cancel because something genuinely did come up in their life and they feel terrible, and they'll pay. Especially if they would like to try to book you a second time later and dont want you to turn them down because they were a flake the first time. But typically someone who had every intention of cancelling on you has no intention of ever trying to make it up to you
Matt Knowles wrote: I wouldn't consider a model that requires a deposit. I've been flaked on way too much. The offer of payment seems about the only way to get models to the studio these days. Unless it was in an escrow account it would be too much risk, and using an escrow account is an expense and hassle I'd rather do without.
+1
I've been shooting close to 3 years now, and have been flaked on 6 times. Two of those were unpaid shoots, and the models and I were both absolute noobs at the time. 4 Times remaining were all paid models - and one well-known one - a 7th - is in my very short "Do Not Hire" list for her obtuse behaviour and disrespect of my time and money. While I can sympathize with your very justified frustrations with photographers treating *your time and income like dirt (I modelled briefly before I began shooting, and was flaked-on 2 times by photographers! And one of the times was ridiculous!!!), in my humble opinion I'll suggest that you may have better luck avoiding this from happening by laying down more cautious "booking rules" for yourself to follow and/or following more stringent rules more closely (?). I mean no disrespect, but although nice as pie I'm downright anal when it comes to timeliness of exchanging non-internet contact deets, phonecall/txt confirmations upon booking and again the day previous to the shoot, etcetera. I'm not knocking your current policies, and I can see clearly why you stay extremely busy with many many differing bookings and would have trouble staying ontop of them all in this fashion. I'd rather sit in my office or at home working on some type of work-crap (or continue my studies; I'm upgrading my photographic-training!) than have a flakeroonie/last-minute cancellation and have my thumb in my ass not knowing why I'm at the agreed location and someone is nowhere to be found
Pardon my run-on post; I despise flaky shooters, cuz they give all shooters a bad name & cause us a hard time
liddellphoto
Posts: 1,678
London, England, United Kingdom
I think it is pretty reasonable to require a deposit IF you have been cancelled on last minute by someone once. On a first booking it will scare people away, few will just spend money to a stranger. My sister does beauty therapy and if they cancel with less than 24hrs notice or no shows she requires half the treatment amount in advance if they re-book, it works well and keeps away timewasters.
Models in general seem to be very trusting on payment, a photog could easily do the shoot and say 'oops, I didn't bring enough cash, I'll get it to you later' and never follow through. One model has even allowed me to do a bank transfer in my own time after the shoot.
liddellphoto wrote: I think it is pretty reasonable to require a deposit IF you have been cancelled on last minute by someone once. On a first booking it will scare people away, few will just spend money to a stranger. My sister does beauty therapy and if they cancel with less than 24hrs notice or no shows she requires half the treatment amount in advance if they re-book, it works well and keeps away timewasters.
Models in general seem to be very trusting on payment, a photog could easily do the shoot and say 'oops, I didn't bring enough cash, I'll get it to you later' and never follow through. One model has even allowed me to do a bank transfer in my own time after the shoot.
I'd like to amend my previous post in the following fashion: I agree completely with requiring a deposit from A) a photog who's flaked on you before, and/or B) one who has a history of flaking. No need for he-said/she-said, just ask for a deposit and if they whine tell them who said they were a flaker. Your problem is making a living, not settling squabbles!
Pardon me for not mentioning that aspect as well, but my post was getting too long-winded
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