I had never worked with him as an individual.  He goes to a drop in art group where he pays 15 dollars or something to the coordinator each time, to come draw a model.

Different than hiring me, and paying me $200+ dollars each time.

Though, I understand what you're saying.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but while it sucks that you’ve been mistreated, in the face of your clearly successful and positive methods and track record, this revisiting of a deposit protocol seems a bit knee-jerk.

If the responses in this thread are to be even partially believed, you _will_ lose out on opportunities, simply because a portion of your potential client base will say “next”. Is your peace of mind and the money recouped from the (by your accounts) exceptionally rare flaking worth the lost chances to make money?

Here's my take on it.  Many photographers who charge for their services are in business as photographers and have a registered company.  In many cases they have an office or studio, with a real address posted on their website and business cards.  Their deposits are often taken by credit card, and those payments can be challenged with the major credit card companies if the business does not deliver on the promised service.

Most models who seek payment for their services are not registered as a business, they don't list an official address on their website, sometimes don't use their real name, and rarely accept payment by credit card unless through PayPal.

I'm not saying that either party is more or less trustworthy than the other, but there is a perception of photography being a business.  For the most part the only models that are thought of at a similar level are those with an agency.

I don't necessarily think photographers should require a deposit from all customers, but there are times when it can make sense.  And in most cases consumers will pay a small deposit if they feel they can recover it if the photographer fails to provide the service.

Just my $0.02

*TACKLES SHANDRA WITH A FLYING HUG*

I find it funny, as a model I rarely got deposits, I sometimes would get 25-50 through paypal or a check... That was paperwork and Paypal takes a cut.

You can look into squareup.com

They are a little thing that goes on your phone or ipad that lets you take all CC payments, amazing technology in just the past few years. BAM!! Model can now accept CC as payment.

So here is the other fascinating thing, as a model on MM very few deposits...
As a photographer with a studio anyone who books me pays a deposit. EVERYONE
Unless you are a very regular studio renter.

No one ever complains ever, at all.

I'm sure a few "MM Models" might but they are not my "client base" so deposits flow freely. (They also help with cash flow)

Interesting point.

At one point, I was going to register as a business, but I was also working a regular 9-5, and I just never got around to it.

I need to register, anyway, now that this is my entire living again, and I pay taxes, and otherwise operate as a business.  Though, there is no reason for me to post even a business address anywhere, as my space is not available for rent; I am for hire.

I am able to accept credit cards, outside of paypal.

So, by April, I will have the following things out of the list:

Shandra Stark as a legit, registered business
business address/my own studio
ability to accept credit cards

All of which I would be happy to list on my website, and profile here. 

In response to the other comment about addresses:

I really have to wonder about photographers who are worried about finding out exactly where I live, with the intention of suing me if I flake.  A nude model giving up her home address all over the internet is a recipe for disaster, NOT an indicator that the person is trying to be secretive and fuck people over.

Everyone I've worked with it has it, as they typically send me prints, gifts, images...etc...in the mail, or take a picture of my ID, but that's not something that I should be expected to divulge willy nilly.

My business address should suffice.

HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII! *tackle*

For anyone wondering, THIS girl is the model that got me considering registering as abusiness, long ago.

She's also the one who got me into the idea of having a business address.  Smart girl.

I have a SquaredUp account, and got it about two years ago or so, before injury prevented me from modeling.  I haven't used it, but am excited to!

I love hearing about what is working for you...seriously thinking about moving to your market, so I have more to work with (more space for less money, more outdoor locations and great weather in which to utilize them).

I am not suggesting that a model should ever post her home address alongside her modelling portfolio.  But the fact that most models don't publish any sort of address (home, business etc.) is what makes them "appear" less trustworthy than an establish business with some sort of address.  Businesses can post fake addresses, and I am sure some do.  It really comes down to perception by the people who might be asked for the deposit. 

Most photographers get deposits from people want portraits or weddings and most people booking those services expect that a deposit may be required.  When planning a wedding almost everything from flowers to food requires a deposit.  Many photographers also work on word of mouth, so the customer knows someone who has already done business with them.

Most freelance models get paid by hobbyist photographers, and they frequent forums of sites like these where they learn that models will sometimes flake, even when paid a deposit. 

The other consideration is the typical fee for service when asking for a deposit.  When I call the plumber or electrician to come to my house for a couple of hours or repairs they don't ask for a deposit.  If I want them to work on a complete remodel and the project will last months they want a deposit.  Likewise a $3000 wedding is going to request a deposit, booking a 30 minute shoot for $200 in someone's full time studio probably does not require a deposit.

Since many models only get $200-300 for the average shoot it's a lot closer to the cost of a plumbing repair than a remodel.

In the end it is what the market is willing to do.  The market is quite often NOT fair.  Most customers of models are not comfortable paying a deposit, so you run the risk of losing a customer if you demand it.  If a plumber asked me for a $50 deposit on the 2-hour service call next Tuesday I would call another plumber.

Just my $0.02

Death of Field wrote:
I can hook you up with great places to live and the local market here.

My "new" (3 years old) studio is doing well.


Funny thing, I have had the SAME public phone number for over 10 years now, as an employee, as a nude model, as a photographer...Always, the only issues I have ever had were a few (less then 5) "photographers" who would call me while drunk and yell at me ... I just hung up on them.

No stalker calls,
No memorable crank calls,
A few "will you photograph me jacking off" not enough to change my number.

Pretty calm, not at all the massive amounts of drama that is fear-mongered on MM.

In fact, the worst times I had was when I worked for a Bakery during new semesters near a college...
(Haze week seemed to include crank calls...)

I do no longer answer blocked numbers though.
If they leave a message I get right back to them.

I never answer numbers that I don't know or are blocked.

I still have your number if it's the same one.

I would argue that a photographer paying for studio rental, MuA and other costs should have some assurance that the model will actually show up and that he/she didn't just waste several hundreds to thousands of dollars.

See, it works both ways.

Death of Field wrote:
I do no longer answer blocked numbers though.
If they leave a message I get right back to them.

+1

Likewise. The worst I've ever gotten was a buttsore model (over my not bending to her every demand, while planning an  unpaid shoot) who signed my work-email up to a slew of gay-porn sites as a new member, and has info-packages sent to me on ED (erectile dysfunction). I thought it was pretty funny tbh, & didn't even bother mentioning it to her (or that one site told me confrontationally that they had a secondary-email for me which was her email addy!).

Ðanny
http://dbi.carbonmade.com
http://www.dbiphotography.com
Posted by DBIphotography via his CrackBerry®

"Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes."
~Oscar Wilde

Assuming the people the model is working with have rented or hired or bought anything/anyone

My shoots cost me nothing 75% of the time.
As a model, I can count on one hand how many muas were ever hired for me (8 years) and worked in rented studios maybe half, probably less than half, of the time.


Sure it works both ways, but not for the "everyone does everything the same way" reason because , well, that reason doesn't exist.

No. I pay models to model at my workshops, I always say they get the full amount in cash right after the workshop, it's never been an issue with a model.

Sounds reasonable, but my guess is that most of the people who have dropped on you are photographers you haven't worked with before, so this probably will have little practical effect.

I see it the other way around.  I've never paid any contractor a deposit.  So a roofer will spend 10K on my roof with no deposit, yet a model wants a deposit when she's investing very little?   

Personally, I'd say no to any model requesting a deposit.  Models have canceled on me often, so why should I pay a model for the risk of me canceling on her,  while I have no coverage for the greater risk of her canceling on me?

If you charge deposits you'll loose some potential shoots as a result.  It think only you can look at your booking schedule and decide if loosing those shoots is worth having fewer cancelations.

Paying the full agreed on rate at the end of a workshop is great, I'm sure after doing that many times you have a very positive reputation with local models. Unfortunately many "workshops" in our area don't work that way, so many promoters hold events that they pay the models a "cut" of the door, or they book 6 models for Saturday then on Friday night he calls up three of them and tells them not to show up...
So now they are out of a job they had been promised.
The ones that DO show up and are not cut, get anywhere from 1k to NOTHING...
Of course No minimums either.