Some people actually consider the act of buying a full frame digital camera makes them a professional photographer?   That must mean every dentist out there that's owns a M9 and a couple of Leica lens should add "professional photographer" to their business card.     John Smith DDS & Professional Photographer. 

A true full time professional photographer has no trouble of explaining his profession..  I have made a good living for well over 60 years.  There are a lot of students,  amateur,  hobby ,     To buy a pro camera does not make you a PROFESSIONAL  -- in no way...The work you produce proves your profession.

Mcary wrote:
Some people actually consider the act of buying a full frame digital camera makes them a professional photographer?   That must mean every dentist out there that's owns a M9 and a couple of Leica lens should add "professional photographer" to their business card.     John Smith DDS & Professional Photographer. 

At least it is what many people say. I actually know a guy who bought a camera and one week after was telling that now on he was a professional photographer, with a website, business card a portfolio made with a couple of friends.

And in fact he is hired to shoot events. But he was selling himself as professional before actually become a professional, just after buying a camera.

This is what I think.
But sometimes there are people like the guy I talked with telling me that I should't tell that I am not a professional or full time photographer, that I have to "sell myself" as professional in order to become recognised as professional.

That's why I hate marketing and titles.

Part of me is shaking my head in disbelief and and part of me is smiling   I can remember reading about more then one famous professional photographer over stating their qualifications to get in their foot in the door. 
I guess it depends on what you think being a professional photographer means.  To some its seems to mean having obtained a curtain level of skill and experience to others it's no different the starting any other small business, you let people know what services you're offering and let the market decide.

Marketing and titles is very important.  How do people know what to expect if you can't describe it to them yourself?

Why not tell people you are a semi-professional?  When I hear this term I expect someone who is doing work that is similar to that of a professional (in terms of skill and quality), that they are earning some money from it and therefore know the business end of it, but they are earning their main income in some other manner.

Mcary wrote:

Part of me is shaking my head in disbelief and and part of me is smiling   I can remember reading about more then one famous professional photographer over stating their qualifications to get in their foot in the door. 
I guess it depends on what you think being a professional photographer means.  To some its seems to mean having obtained a curtain level of skill and experience to others it's no different the starting any other small business, you let people know what services you're offering and let the market decide.

In case of photography, the majority of people associate professional as good photographer and amateur as not good photographer.

I have heart people telling things like this: "Don't hire that photographer because he is not professional". Even the photographer works full time and have 100% of his income from photography, when thay say "that one is not professional" they mean he is not good or his service is not good.



What I also don't understand is the saying "let the market decide". While people I know who studied and work with marketing says that I have to improve my marketing.

So where is the decision power? In the marketing or on my marketing?

Semi-professional seems to be a honest title.
Thank you.

The "market" is simply the people that buy goods and/or services.  "Marketing on the other hand is how you get people "the market" to want to buy the goods or services that you're offering.

The "decision power is with the "market"  The propose of your "marketing" is to influence that decision in such a manner that they want to purchase the goods or services you're offering.

If you ever ask any of those dancers, actors, etc., they never say, "I am a professional actor." (Unless they're drawing up their chest and saying it indignantly.) They just say, "I'm a dancer" when asked what they do. Then if someone says, "Really? Wow! Do you do anything else??" The dancer might respond with "I bartend on the side." Even if bartending provides all her income and she is bartending more hours per week than professionally dancing. It is understood what is meant by that: this is a person who is probably trained, is capable of being hired professionally, has the skills and talent to be hired, and is paying her bills with another method of work while transitioning to only dancing jobs. (Granted, some of those people are dreaming and it ain't never gonna happen.)

Why don't you try the same, instead of getting hung up on semantics and accounting definitions of what "professional" means.

"Hey Marco, what do you do?"
"I'm a photographer."
"Really? Full-time?"
"Yes, I work at it full-time."
"I mean, do you do anything else?"
"Yes, I do tech support / bartending / lawn care on the side."

+1

From what I looked into at the start. A professional is someone who makes a living doing photography. A semi-professional is someone who does photography part-time making some money. Amateur someone who takes on photography as a hobby. Somewhere along the lines the term GWC has been thrown. I personally don't like the term amateur or gwc. I rather use photographer in general.

Really make me wonder how the term "amateur" that means ""lover of"  has become a derogatory term.  As in oh you're an "amateur" photographer, guess that means you're not good enough to be a professional photographer.

I agree, completely.  There problem is that, technically, there is no such thing as a "professional photographer."  Photography, by definition, isn't technically a "profession," it is a "vocation."  That is what makes it different.

Being an accountant, a lawyer, a doctor, etc., those are professions exactly because the requirements and training are set out in accepted standards.  There are no standards for being a photographer.  You are a photographer because you say you are one.

Yet, we do often call ourselves "professional photographers."  Harold hit the nail on the head.  If you are a professional, you will have no problems explaining why you are a professional.  If you have to strain to decide if you have reached it yet, you are not.

. Haha. Whatever works!
I call myself a professional GWC.  Nobody cares. Except Model Mayhem  types,  they still cringe, their anal sphincters pucker up, and blood pressure goes up, and get totally defensive at the thought of being labeled a GWC!

Too old to care.

Just because they don't like to admit that they are waitresses doesn't change the fact that THAT is what they are.

An actress who spends her entire day going to castings and workshops and practicing (making no money at it) and then goes to her waitressing JOB at night...is a waitress whether she wants to admit it or not. Now, she can say she's an "aspiring actress" while she serves you your potato skins and that is a bit more honest.

But there is nothing sadder than asking someone what they do for a living and having them tell you they're an actress/dancer (as they're putting on their TGI Friday's apron and suspenders).

In the case of photographers, you can ACT professional (i.e. behavior and actions) but that doesn't mean you ARE a professional. To "qualify" as a professional photographer you must make the majority of your income from photography.

If you look at some of the photography organizations like PPA or ASMP they have minimum requirements based on professional status. For example, on the ASMP site:

"ASMP requires that applicants for General Membership demonstrate proof of publication for the previous 3 years and that the majority of their earned income be generated from the publication of their own photography. Substantial publication proof is usually adequate to confirm the earned income requirement. While the publication must show professional competency, aesthetics are not judged."

I don't think that telling them that you earn your money as a waiter but practice and spend a lot of time at workshops would satisfy their requirements.

If the propose of my marketing is to influence people decision, people who are the marketing, therefore the marketing decision. To me sounds contradiction to say that the marketing decides then.

This is actually what I do. Often there are people who don't take me serious when I say afterwards that I actually I have an other income to pay my bills. As if I were pretending to be what I am not. Therefore I prefer to say streat ahead that I am amateur photographer. But there are those who tell me that telling people that I am amateur photographer is a very bad self-marketing.

I agree. If you can't sell your product or service you can't have clientes and income.

I am very bad at relationship, marketing and it seems, or it means, that I am vary bad at business too.

I actually, inside, I don't care about titles. Or I used to don't care.

I believed on the saying "the market decides". So that I thought if I do my best and come up with results that are satisfactory the market would go for it.

But more and more people are telling me that I have to make the market decide with a good self-marketing. One guy in particular told me that if I don't tell people I am professional, people won't be interested on my work doesn't meter how good or interesting it may be or may become.

And it seems to be true that when I say I am amateur people see it as that I am not a good enough photographer (and it may be true) or that I am not interested on make profit with photograph (and it is not true).

Many people associate amateur to hobbit.

While I understand your POV I think there is a major difference between what you DO and what your ARE. One is how you make your living, the other the essence of what you are and how you see the world.

You can be a great artist, in any genre, yet not make much/any $$ for many reasons. That determines if you are a Photographer. A Professional is one that makes $$ at it. If you are a lawyer and make say $200,000 ayear as a lawyer and $25,000 as a photographer does that make you less of a pro than a PJ that makes $20,000? What if you only made $5000? $2000? ASMP etc has their reasons for their membership rules ( and they are reevaluating them due to market changes).

This is exactly the way I feel -- I don't feed my family from photography but I am not too bad at it either.

Are you talking about Penny in The Big Bang Theory? (smiles)

It seems that the market care.

this is what I have being told to be the right thing to do.