I have been photographing models for a while now. During
this time I have done extensive scouting in my local area
to find what I consider the best locations for shoots of
various types. Over time I have built up what I consider
to be some half decent locations and ideas.
For financial reasons I am in mostly TFP mode at the moment.
Occasionally I notice a model posting a TFP casting. A recent
case is not atypical.
I respond. The model requests specific ideas. I respond
with a short list. Then wait for the model who does not
respond. And wait...
This seems to happen more often than I would prefer. Most
recently it happened with a model who was running two
casting calls, fairly similar except that one was "negotiable"
and the other was TFP. By "negotiable" I infer the model
was asking for money from the photographer (is
this the common convention?), not vice versa.
I reviewed my responses to make sure they were appropriate
(they seemed so), generally, and also sent her a reminder
that I was waiting to hear back. Still no response.
So I am wondering how photographers who are in TFP mode
avoid giving out their best ideas and locations to
the type of models who simply for whatever reason can't bother
to respond after a photographer has shared some of
his or her best ideas with them.
And please help me understand the mental mindset of a model
who does such a thing: photographers deserve to be
taken advantage of because... what??
The short answer to your question is to not offer up ideas unless you've got a set plan of action to shoot with a model. That may sound harsh but there's sound rationale behind it: As a stylist I've had a fair share of models and photographers ask for "ideas" on wardrobe/props for shoots and a red flag always appears when the context of the message doesn't mention shooting with me specifically but that they're "looking to build a team" or some similar verbage. I'm all for being collaborative but there's a huge difference between actually collaborating and just giving away information to someone who may have zero intention of shooting with you. Plus if someone contacts you about a shoot and/or posts a casting call then they should have the basic ideas about what they're looking to do covered.
Me:
Make contact
They like my work
I exchange #s to see if there for real. I don't really call them as I like to keep it to MM mail but I know if they give me their # they are most likely to shoot.
Then go over ideas. If for some reason which is rare they need to know ideas before hand then. I give light detailed idea but really general till I know for sure were shooting. I've come up with sooo many ideas and then notice it being done by model with another photographer or with in that circle of models. I don't know maybe we all came up with the same idea at the same time but just in case. But beyond that you just have to take the risk!
I don't really discuss shoots in that extreme of detail, and sometimes I don't really have a specific location in mind other than the general area or general idea and clothing. Even if I did have a very specific thing in mind I'd still only give generals - and most ideas anyway have been done before. So, it's not really like I'm out anything if the shoot didn't happen, or that I've lost any secret location.
No need to discuss very specific details, but even if you do is it going to look just like you envision it if they shoot it with someone else? Does it stop you from shooting it later with someone else?
I generally find that the originality and personality of the photo comes as much from the interaction between model and photographer and the choices the photographer makes in implementing it than the "idea" or concept itself - but then I don't really shoot what I consider to be conceptual photos.
I generally have very specific image in mind when setting up a shoot with a model, but we generally discuss things in fairly general terms such as light, natural makeup, formal dress with some sheen preferably red in colour, hair up and off the face etc. Even if I add a specific location (such as near the old mill) I doubt that when she takes that "idea" to someone else it would end up being all that similar to what I had in mind.
Ideas and $5 will get you an Iced Mocha at Starbucks.
I've seen this mentality a lot in threads lately. Everyone, models and photographers alike, have all these unique, innovative and ground-breaking ideas that are shared and/or stolen by another.
Ideas are worthless without execution. Otherwise, we would be allowed to copyright our ideas and there'd be no need to plan and execute the shoot.
The same idea that the model "stole" could be presented to 100 photographers and it would be executed differently by every one of them. And despite how great the idea is thought to be...some of those would still suck.
And if the idea is indeed so fantastic that you fear it being stolen...why haven't you already done it?
My attitude is that if she puts up the casting call for x type of shoot, it's her show, she provides the ideas, I may fine tune them but that's all.
If it's a general casting call, I will reply with details of the genre I want to shoot in. When it's agreed that we will shoot I'll send her a few examples of what I have in mind but never a detailed plan of the shoot or a list of poses.
A few days before the shoot is due I will send her a posing plan. Everything is organised at that stage.
Dan Brady
Posts: 557
Perth, Western Australia, Australia
Ava Photography wrote: I have been photographing models for a while now. During
this time I have done extensive scouting in my local area
to find what I consider the best locations for shoots of
various types. Over time I have built up what I consider
to be some half decent locations and ideas.
For financial reasons I am in mostly TFP mode at the moment.
Occasionally I notice a model posting a TFP casting. A recent
case is not atypical.
I respond. The model requests specific ideas. I respond
with a short list. Then wait for the model who does not
respond. And wait...
This seems to happen more often than I would prefer. Most
recently it happened with a model who was running two
casting calls, fairly similar except that one was "negotiable"
and the other was TFP. By "negotiable" I infer the model
was asking for money from the photographer (is
this the common convention?), not vice versa.
I reviewed my responses to make sure they were appropriate
(they seemed so), generally, and also sent her a reminder
that I was waiting to hear back. Still no response.
So I am wondering how photographers who are in TFP mode
avoid giving out their best ideas and locations to
the type of models who simply for whatever reason can't bother
to respond after a photographer has shared some of
his or her best ideas with them.
And please help me understand the mental mindset of a model
who does such a thing: photographers deserve to be
taken advantage of because... what??
Maybe you've done this already, but you need to look at their port. Also look to see if they are agency signed. If they are just chasing a new FB profile pic with an idea then steer clear.
Work with professional models who are trained and you will have little trouble.
A professional won't eff you over. If they do then they've done it to others. Word gets around and no one wants to work with them.
Plus - fuck them and their plagiarising rubbish. You are creative. They're not. You do what do and keep doing it. Anything they achieve without you is pish.
Don't be too specific with your reply. Just tell them you want to do a couple of fashion looks and a couple of lingerie looks in a two hour shoot. Avoid disclosing anything that would be a unique idea on your part.
Wow, there actually seems to be some sort of consensus around not
giving specific locations and specific ideas out just for the asking.
Michael Pandolfo wrote: Ideas and $5 will get you an Iced Mocha at Starbucks.
I've seen this mentality a lot in threads lately. Everyone, models and photographers alike, have all these unique, innovative and ground-breaking ideas that are shared and/or stolen by another.
Ideas are worthless without execution. Otherwise, we would be allowed to copyright our ideas and there'd be no need to plan and execute the shoot.
The same idea that the model "stole" could be presented to 100 photographers and it would be executed differently by every one of them. And despite how great the idea is thought to be...some of those would still suck.
And if the idea is indeed so fantastic that you fear it being stolen...why haven't you already done it?
In general I hear you, but when it comes to specifics, I canvass both
locations/ideas and photo collections such as MM, and I think there
is value to attempting the unusual if not unique as revealed by
my canvassing. I am not claiming my ideas are entirely unique but
for me they are sufficiently different to be of value from my perspective,
and obviously there seems to be some value to them from others
(or else the troll models don't bother to ask me for them in their
responses, lol). As to having done it before, what makes you think
I have not? I like to repeat shot themes with differing parameters,
including models, until I get the shots done perfectly.
I try to be as vague as possible when describing the shoot until the model is actually standing in front of me. Of course the down side is that this may give them the impression that I haven't actually fully thought out my concepts, which can result in them not following through and stopping communication. Only you can decide if it's worth losing them because you're too vague, or risk them stealing your ideas.
If you give 20 photographers the address to a location, the same model, and the same green dress...
Each of those people will do different things with that information.
Less then half of them will ever go there, and those that do, will STILL all have different images.
If you find it a problem, then give fewer details until they commit.
(The issue is that many models might not commit until they know more about the shoot)
bencook2
Posts: 3,724
Pageland, South Carolina, US
Most models will be happy with a genre and a direction you want to go.
I honestly have NO CLUE what I'm shooting till I see all the parts together in one place.
And normally... that "one place" only occurs on the day you shoot.
I tell models all the time that the way they get comfortable with me isn't anything I tell them on MM. It's what they find out on there own. Check my references. I say this because some models are asking many questions looking for a comfort level they will never find.
this seems to come up almost as often as escort thread, but it is inherently less fun and much less violent
two camps:
1) its just an idea, get over it. there are plenty more
2) its unique and if anyone knows it is no longer fresh and its stealing
the question can be argued back and forth forever. doesn't matter what the law says. doesn't matter how much work went into finding that location or how much research went into the idea. people will line up on either side. and nobody with budge.
for the record I'm usually in the 1) camp but if I feel a location is fragile, likely to get ruined or spoiled by photographers and models and their respective escorts tramping through or if I feel the site poses a health risk to overweight photographers or models (or escorts) I'm likely to be vague about it both in advance and at the shoot. I have not yet resorted to blindfolding the model to keep a location secret.
But others are free to try that concept as a shoot. blindfold a model before you get to the parking spot. take pics as they get out of the car and walk, with you directing them where to step. it's like posing direction so any photographer can do it, right? when you get to the location, shoot closeups of the face as they remove the blindfold and take in the surroundings and watch as they refocus on what "here" has become.
I often pitch a specific idea to models offering TF trade work in a casting call. I've had pretty good success doing it and I can't see any down side. The key to TF work is the trade. I don't mind being rather specific about what I can offer for my end of the deal.
My photography is out of the mainstream (b/w film) so I want to give them an idea how I'd use it to meet the parameters of their casting call and give them something unique at the same time. I don't always get accepted. Most that haven't are quite polite about it, but if I received no response at all I'd consider it a "no" and move on.
Ideas alone aren't worth much to me. It's the execution of an idea that produces value. I don't worry about someone using my idea with another photographer. They'll end up with a different result that I would have anyway.
JimBobLc
Posts: 192
Martinsburg, West Virginia, US
I agree 100%. I am happy to spout on about my ideas. I have many, not really possible to do them all. If someone else finds something of value and wants to copy it, wonderful. What I do wish is people would return the time I spent explaining something when they were just fishing and decide to do it with someone else.
Michael Pandolfo wrote: Ideas and $5 will get you an Iced Mocha at Starbucks.
I've seen this mentality a lot in threads lately. Everyone, models and photographers alike, have all these unique, innovative and ground-breaking ideas that are shared and/or stolen by another.
Ideas are worthless without execution. Otherwise, we would be allowed to copyright our ideas and there'd be no need to plan and execute the shoot.
The same idea that the model "stole" could be presented to 100 photographers and it would be executed differently by every one of them. And despite how great the idea is thought to be...some of those would still suck.
And if the idea is indeed so fantastic that you fear it being stolen...why haven't you already done it?
Dan Brady wrote: Maybe you've done this already, but you need to look at their port. Also look to see if they are agency signed. If they are just chasing a new FB profile pic with an idea then steer clear.
Work with professional models who are trained and you will have little trouble.
A professional won't eff you over. If they do then they've done it to others. Word gets around and no one wants to work with them.
Plus - fuck them and their plagiarising rubbish. You are creative. They're not. You do what do and keep doing it. Anything they achieve without you is pish.
Yes, I think there is something to that.
But how often do professional models stoop to TFP? I guess
it is a dilemma...
Hmm. I've never discussed ideas with a model I hire. I just tell her it'll be a full nude shoot, and that it'll be in studio or out in nature, where to meet, and if it's trade or paid.
Chris Hayden
Posts: 19
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
I was once hired to shoot a model's portfolio, and took her there to show the various looks/angles since she didn't live too far away. No response after that, and lo and behold 2 weeks later she had someone shoot it with a P&S or cell phone or something.
Ava Photography wrote: As to having done it before, what makes you think
I have not? I like to repeat shot themes with differing parameters,
including models, until I get the shots done perfectly.
I meant "you" more in the plural than directed at you personally. The reason I used it that way is because there have been a good number of threads recently, several started by models, who were very upset that a photographer stole her idea and used another model for it...getting to the point of asking if they can copyright those ideas.
AVD AlphaDuctions wrote: for the record I'm usually in the 1) camp but if I feel a location is fragile, likely to get ruined or spoiled by photographers and models and their respective escorts tramping through or if I feel the site poses a health risk to overweight photographers or models (or escorts) I'm likely to be vague about it both in advance and at the shoot. I have not yet resorted to blindfolding the model to keep a location secret.
But others are free to try that concept as a shoot. blindfold a model before you get to the parking spot. take pics as they get out of the car and walk, with you directing them where to step. it's like posing direction so any photographer can do it, right? when you get to the location, shoot closeups of the face as they remove the blindfold and take in the surroundings and watch as they refocus on what "here" has become.
Has any photographer...ever...asked to blindfold a model and put them in the photographer's car? Better yet, has any model ever agreed to be blindfolded, put in the passenger seat of the photographer's car, and driven to a secret location?
I hope that was tongue-in-cheek because even the description of "remove the blindfold...watch as they refocus on what "here" has become" is giving me the heebie jeebies.
David Kirk wrote: No need to discuss very specific details, but even if you do is it going to look just like you envision it if they shoot it with someone else? Does it stop you from shooting it later with someone else?
I generally find that the originality and personality of the photo comes as much from the interaction between model and photographer and the choices the photographer makes in implementing it than the "idea" or concept itself - but then I don't really shoot what I consider to be conceptual photos.
I generally have very specific image in mind when setting up a shoot with a model, but we generally discuss things in fairly general terms such as light, natural makeup, formal dress with some sheen preferably red in colour, hair up and off the face etc. Even if I add a specific location (such as near the old mill) I doubt that when she takes that "idea" to someone else it would end up being all that similar to what I had in mind.
THIS x 1000!!! And even if I gave up very single detail It would still not look like what I envision.
Carlos Occidental wrote: Hmm. I've never discussed ideas with a model I hire. I just tell her it'll be a full nude shoot, and that it'll be in studio or out in nature, where to meet, and if it's trade or paid.
You hire models for TFP shoots? Hmm, interesting concept... :-)
I meant "you" more in the plural than directed at you personally. The reason I used it that way is because there have been a good number of threads recently, several started by models, who were very upset that a photographer stole her idea and used another model for it...getting to the point of asking if they can copyright those ideas.
Ah, I don't get models with ideas very often. Once in a while there is
an exception and it is bliss for me. It is difficult for me to imagine
models out there with both shoot ideas, and the notion of copyrighting
them. Never encountered a model like that, so maybe I am just
fortunate in that way somehow...
To expose your dreams, plans, locations and ideas to the masses is to risk their loss... especially to one who's character is less than honorable. Time to safeguard those things you place value in, as it's appearent you're a poor judge of human character...
Select Models wrote: dealing with models trolling for ideas?
To expose your dreams, plans, locations and ideas to the masses is to risk their loss... especially to one who's character is less than honorable. Time to safeguard those things you place value in, as it's appearent you're a poor judge of human character...
Thanks Gary. I will try to improve my judgment then. :-)
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