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Model
V for Victory Modeling
Posts: 436
Roseville, California, US


What do all of you think about asking for partial gas contribution for TF shoots that involve traveling to the photographer or model? I usually don't ask for this if I am the one to initiate contact, but if someone initiates contact with me to travel to them, I ask if they are open to partial gas contribution. Now if we're both travelling to a location, this would be a moot point. I am just on a very strict budget at the moment until I graduate college this summer and find a better job, so if I am contacted to travel to them, I put this out there.
Mar 21 13 09:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JOEL McDONALD
Posts: 608
Portland, Oregon, US


I always offer a small gas fee for my TF models that are students or are coming from more than 50 miles away. It's just a courtesy I like to extend to those models that accept my TF offers.

You can place that on your profile for TF shoot requests. If you're worth shooting then you're worth at least a few bucks for gas.
Mar 21 13 09:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotographia Fantastique
Posts: 17,324
Lebanon, New Hampshire, US


I generally don't ask for it, nor offer it. But in the past I have both given and received travel reimbursement. Actually I'd prefer keep everything simple in a flat fee and not receive travel reimbursement as it messes with my mileage accounting at tax time.
Mar 21 13 09:45 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2,014
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


I honestly view it as a bit tacky. Both parties have costs when it comes to a TF shoot, and a TF shoot is supposed to be time for prints. Not time AND gas money for prints.
Mar 21 13 09:56 am  Link  Quote 
Model
V for Victory Modeling
Posts: 436
Roseville, California, US


JessieLeigh wrote:
I honestly view it as a bit tacky. Both parties have costs when it comes to a TF shoot, and a TF shoot is supposed to be time for prints. Not time AND gas money for prints.

I agree when you both are travelling or when you both live in the same area. But when only one person has to travel a distance for TF...it's a bit unfair for that one person. I think it should at least be offered...or if the llama or photographer cannot afford to travel...I think asking them if they are open to gas contribution is better than just declining the shoot. The other party may be willing to chip in rather than lose the shoot all together.

Mar 21 13 10:19 am  Link  Quote 
Body Painter
Eric Mayhem
Posts: 443
Seattle, Washington, US


Just be sure to negotiate it in the beginning.  If you call the day before the shoot and ask for money, it may not end well:-)
Mar 21 13 11:13 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2,014
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Valerie Kelly wrote:
I agree when you both are travelling or when you both live in the same area. But when only one person has to travel a distance for TF...it's a bit unfair for that one person. I think it should at least be offered...or if the model or photographer cannot afford to travel...I think asking them if they are open to gas contribution is better than just declining the shoot. The other party may be willing to chip in rather than lose the shoot all together.

Everyone has a choice to turn down a TF shoot. It is my opinion that if the quality of the photos is not enough to drive to the shoot, for free, then the model (or photographer) should ask to be paid for the shoot...

Mar 21 13 11:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


I figure if the shoot is worth going to, the few dollars for gas shouldn't be an issue. Asking for gas money seems unprofessional to me.
Mar 21 13 11:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 7,566
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Valerie Kelly wrote:
What do all of you think about asking for partial gas contribution for TF shoots

I would say next model plz.

Mar 21 13 11:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
liddellphoto
Posts: 1,800
London, England, United Kingdom


Given the costs to the photog of renting a studios and the like it seems a bit ridiculous.

I read a great profile one here from a mua that demanded her travel was always covered because she lived outside of London. If you choose to live outside of the city where all your work is that is your choice really.
Mar 21 13 11:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JOEL McDONALD
Posts: 608
Portland, Oregon, US


So basically any cash given, regardless of how much and for what, makes it a "paid" shoot as opposed to a TF shoot at that point?
Mar 21 13 12:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
V for Victory Modeling
Posts: 436
Roseville, California, US


Well the photographer has it in his casting call that he is willing to compensate...thus in that case I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for partial gas cost. He said he travels all over the bay area, but would prefer us (this is a couple shoot) to come to him. We're discussing this early on (shoot wouldn't be for another month or so), he seemed okay with it, so we're going with that.

Note I said partial...$5-10 for gas isn't really a "paid" shoot IMO.
Mar 21 13 12:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,864
Olivet, Michigan, US


Valerie Kelly wrote:
What do all of you think about asking for partial gas contribution for TF shoots that involve traveling to the photographer or model? I usually don't ask for this if I am the one to initiate contact, but if someone initiates contact with me to travel to them, I ask if they are open to partial gas contribution. Now if we're both travelling to a location, this would be a moot point. I am just on a very strict budget at the moment until I graduate college this summer and find a better job, so if I am contacted to travel to them, I put this out there.

If you bring it up at the beginning, I'll consider it.  Basically, if the model is interesting enough that I would have driven to her, I'll give her the money I would have spent on gas.  But, my car gets 30+ miles per gallon.  So, it's between 10 and 15 cents a mile.

Mar 21 13 12:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,864
Olivet, Michigan, US


Valerie Kelly wrote:
I agree when you both are travelling or when you both live in the same area. But when only one person has to travel a distance for TF...it's a bit unfair for that one person. I think it should at least be offered...or if the model or photographer cannot afford to travel...I think asking them if they are open to gas contribution is better than just declining the shoot. The other party may be willing to chip in rather than lose the shoot all together.

If the photographer came to you, would you cover their gas?  Assuming the answer is no, don't go with "fair."  Stick with "I need this in order to make it."

Mar 21 13 12:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ash Photographic
Posts: 378
Cirencester, England, United Kingdom


If the photos aren't even worth the cost of gas to you then why are you considering the shoots in the first place?

Everybody has costs - in a TF scenario it's kind of insulting to ask for gas money unless the photographer is the one begging YOU to shoot.


Ash.
Mar 21 13 12:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,612
Phoenix, Arizona, US


I think that if your TFP shoot won't produce images worth a tank of gas, then you should probably decline the TFP shoot.
Mar 21 13 12:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JOEL McDONALD
Posts: 608
Portland, Oregon, US


ok. I just got this from the IRS...

According to the IRS,

ANY cash given to a model as a freelance (1099) individual, regardless of amount or purpose, is considered "pay for services" IF it was prearranged prior to the shoot, a condition of the shoot or asked for by the model during or after the shoot.

IF money is given to the model, by photographer, without it being pre-agreed upon or requested then is NOT pay and is simply considered a "gift".

So, as I read it; as a "paid" shoot the images potentially could be handled differently than those from a TF shoot in terms of image usage and purpose.
Mar 21 13 12:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,455
Los Angeles, California, US


I think it's a great idea that the model's pay for a photographers gas and parking expenses.

It's probably a good idea also that the photographer be supplied with snacks as well.

KM
Mar 21 13 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotographia Fantastique
Posts: 17,324
Lebanon, New Hampshire, US


JOEL McDONALD wrote:
According to the IRS (Just talked to them)...

ANY cash given to a model as a freelance individual, regardless of amount or purpose, is considered "pay for services" IF it was prearranged prior to the shoot or asked for by the model during or after the shoot.

IF money is given to the model, by photographer, without it being a pre-agreed upon or requested then is NOT pay and is simply considered a "gift".

Exactly.
I already mentioned this in your other thread, but this is why I prefer not to be 'gifted' money that wasn't discussed in advance as part of the whole shoot expense. I'm a freelancer and I keep track of all the mileage in my work vehicle already to deduct. I'd rather deduct all the miles on that vehicle in a year than have to start keeping track of the exceptions where I was reimbursed on a TFP shoot.

The reverse is also true. If a model needs more money for traveling I'd prefer she just adjust her hourly rates - or in the case of TFP accept more 'P' as compensation.

Mar 21 13 12:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,441
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


If your budget is such that a shoot you need to pay gas for isn't worth your while and you are likely to pass on it, then you have little to loose by asking.

Many photographers feel they have their costs, and it's not their responsibility to pay for you to get to "work" I see their point. I live some distance from most models, so I know for me, it's something that will help make it easier for them to travel the extra distance to me, so I'm happy to help with gas for TF shoots.
Mar 21 13 12:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Silver Mirage
Posts: 1,560
Plainview, Texas, US


I don't mind if a model asks for gas money, so long as it's up front. If a model is worth a day of my time 10 or 20 bucks is not a big deal - though I might not pay it for a marginal model. (I pay at the end of the session after the photos are done and the release is signed - I so not send money in advance unless I know the model.)

To avoid getting caught in semantics or whose car gets what mileage I do a flat amount and call it "travel."
Mar 21 13 12:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JOEL McDONALD
Posts: 608
Portland, Oregon, US


Silver Mirage wrote:
I don't mind if a model asks for gas money, so long as it's up front. If a model is worth a day of my time 10 or 20 bucks is not a big deal - though I might not pay it for a marginal model. (I pay at the end of the session after the photos are done and the release is signed - I so not send money in advance unless I know the model.)

To avoid getting caught in semantics or whose car gets what mileage I do a flat amount and call it "travel."

Well I will continue to give money that can be used for gas, or whatever, but I will now consider it part of the overall compensation for the shoot, be it a TF or a "paid" shoot.

Mar 21 13 12:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


Unless I offer to help out with Gas money to a model because I want and need to shoot with the model i see no problem but when a model who is looking to shoot TRADE with me and asks if i can contribute for gas money plus she expects free images that may land hand her a high paying job to which i will not see any of that money does not fly with me at all. I have my expencese and I pay my price aswell. So not willing to do the gas unless I give you gas money and no images.
Mar 21 13 01:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Yan Tan Tethera
Posts: 4,172
Biggleswade, England, United Kingdom


I have a squid or two. I'll always help someone in genuine need. But I don't expect to have to pay on every occasion.
Mar 21 13 01:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Michael Walker
Posts: 11,982
Costa Mesa, California, US


Valerie Kelly wrote:
What do all of you think about asking for partial gas contribution for TF shoots that involve traveling to the photographer or model? I usually don't ask for this if I am the one to initiate contact, but if someone initiates contact with me to travel to them, I ask if they are open to partial gas contribution. Now if we're both traveling to a location, this would be a moot point. I am just on a very strict budget at the moment until I graduate college this summer and find a better job, so if I am contacted to travel to them, I put this out there.

You can ASK for whatever you want. The way I see TF* is that we all cover our own expenses. When a model meets me at my house to go out the desert and shoot (or I pick her up if she's on the way) I never ask them to chip on on what will like be near $100 for gas plus the park entrance fee. But I've had a couple ask if the should. I thanked them and said that I appreciated the offer but posing for my photos was all I needed and that I was VERY grateful for that.

Mar 21 13 01:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,397
London, England, United Kingdom


I pretty much always ask for travel expenses on TFP shoots (assuming that they exist). On paid shoots i factor them in to my rates anyhow.

I never ask photographers to travel to me so that's a non-issue, though in theory there are times when i would consider paying some expenses on a TFP shoot.

Edit:

This is another one of those things that really isn't a thing at all.

If you really want to work with a model and she requires travel expenses, then you're going to have to pay the travel expenses.

If you really want to work with a photographer but he refuses to pay travel expenses then you're going to have to swallow the cost.

There is not right or wrong, no morality or agenda, just an agreement between two people. Trying to sum it up as 'well the model should' or 'if he respects me he should' or 'a REAL professional would' is just nonsense to try and push people to do things to your benefit.

I'd rather work with a great photographer without expenses than a shit one with expenses, but that situation doesn't often come up.
Mar 21 13 01:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
curiosa des yeux
Posts: 1,458
Seattle, Washington, US


There are kinda two similar threads going on at the same time here, so some of this is from the other thread. Also, when I say "you", it's the royal you which can include both models and photographers, as I'm sure models run into similar requests from time to time.

First, I think that "traveling" has to be defined. Traveling and commuting are two very different things. People in all jobs commute to and from work. I know a lot of people who commute as much as 40 miles one-way, everyday. An average commute for the Seattle area might be 15-20 miles one-way. So I guess that I would consider any distance beyond a reasonable commute to be traveling. 40 miles may be perhaps a good limit, as I don't really see many people that commute further than that daily one-way.

If you live futher than 40 miles away, I'm happy to help with traveling expenses and don't find that rude to ask for, so long as I'm the one who asked to work with you. If you contact me and ask to shoot, then ask for traveling expenses 10 messages into setting a shoot up, I may feel a little differently about it, but won't necessarily be upset about it either. I would just consider the timing and tact to be poor and wonder if you are always rude.

If you are the other type of model, who thinks that driving 10 miles across town is "traveling" and require gas money, then I have a problem with it. In that case, it does really bother me when a model asks for gas money. Particularly since I shoot film, which is a consumable (also cost money, same as gas), and provide makeup/hair services for the shoot (again, products used cost money). In many cases I even make the wardrobe, such as the shrug in the first two shots in my book. It's just disheartening to hear that 1.5-2 hours of makeup and hair, plus my time shooting, developing film and scanning are not worth $10-20 in gas to the model; and therefor tells me a lot about how serious the model is about the shoot. A trade is a trade and I always feel like I'm offering more of my time and more of my money than I ask the model to provide. Asking for another $10-20 just feels somewhat insulting.

If you are actually traveling, then I really don't mind helping out. If you are commuting, please don't ask for gas money.
Mar 21 13 02:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
pullins photography
Posts: 5,878
Troy, Michigan, US


Valerie Kelly wrote:
What do all of you think about asking for partial gas contribution for TF shoots that involve traveling to the photographer or model? I usually don't ask for this if I am the one to initiate contact, but if someone initiates contact with me to travel to them, I ask if they are open to partial gas contribution. Now if we're both travelling to a location, this would be a moot point. I am just on a very strict budget at the moment until I graduate college this summer and find a better job, so if I am contacted to travel to them, I put this out there.

How about photographers start asking for a camera use contribution, or studio fee, or some other expense he/she has to incur? Honestly, if people are not willing to make a sacrifice to get what they want, then everyone should just not do it.

Mar 21 13 02:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,671
Atlanta, Georgia, US


As I stated in another thread...

If a model can't decide on a shoot based on $20-$30 of gas then they are not invested in the shoot.  I would expect them to flake if anything came up even remotely more interesting to them, like sleeping in and I would pass
Mar 21 13 02:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
hbutz New York
Posts: 3,178
Ronkonkoma, New York, US


Since most of my models are from NYC and I'm in the suburbs, I give them gas/train fare for all shoots.
Mar 21 13 02:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,154
Portland, Oregon, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
I think it's a great idea that the model's pay for a photographers gas and parking expenses.

It's probably a good idea also that the photographer be supplied with snacks as well.

KM

With all due respect, I disagree with this sentiment.

1)  Models tend to be younger than photographers, and that often implies that the models are not as financially established & secure as the photographer.

2)  In my experience, either both the photographer & the model are traveling, or the model is traveling to the photographer.  I don't tend to hear about situations where the photographer is traveling to the model's home or place of business.

3)  Typically, the photographer's studio is set up the way the photographer wants it set up.  That includes the presence or absence of snacks.

4)  Even in TF* situations, the photographer winds up with the copyright.  We expect the model to be satisfied with limited usage or one-time payment, but if the photographer is any good, those copyrights are much more valuable than what the model gets.


You guys can do what you want -- you don't have to give the model gas money.  That's perfectly fine.  But in my book, photographers crying "it's not fair" tend to overlook the value of the copyrights they enjoy.

Mar 21 13 02:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Woodson Photography
Posts: 2,644
Savannah, Georgia, US


If it's a trade shoot.

We're both investing time.

I'll pay all of the costs associated with being the photographer, including the time to edit and retouch.

The Model can pay costs associated with being the Model.  That includes the gas to get to the shoot location.
Mar 21 13 02:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Hieronimi
Posts: 238
Chicago, Illinois, US


How far are you travelling?

Usually, if it is over a couple hours, photographers will extend the courtesy of offering to compensate you for gas.

However, if they do not offer to comp gas for a trade shoot, do not bring it up. Personally, I find it abit rude. If you don't want to pay for gas, then you should look into booking the studio local to you or find a location near you, yourself when corresponding with a photog about the shoot, so they can travel to you.

Photographers experience costs just as llamas do with trade shoots. It's not always going to be exactly fair, but there will be sometimes, don't worry, where the photographer will spend more on the production than you do. It's all about what you value, really.
Mar 21 13 02:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Hieronimi
Posts: 238
Chicago, Illinois, US


Ed Woodson Photography wrote:
If it's a trade shoot.

We're both investing time.

I'll pay all of the costs associated with being the photographer, including the time to edit and retouch.

The Model can pay costs associated with being the Model.  That includes the gas to get to the shoot location.

+1

Mar 21 13 02:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,397
London, England, United Kingdom


Looknsee Photography wrote:
But in my book, photographers crying "it's not fair" tend to overlook the value of the copyrights they enjoy.

Indeed, and they go on and on about them enough that we must assume they hold great value.

Essentially most shoots are not an even trade but the model getting paid an amount in something other than money to do her job, the whole its 50/50 thing is nonsense. Comparing the work, the expenses and the profits of models and photographers in TFP shoots is apples to oranges at best, and doesn't take in to account the many variations existing in every different shoot.

Trying to create some fantasy of both parties putting in 50% of the work, 50% of the expenses and 50% of the rewards is just an exercise in futility.

I have been known to bring snacks though.

Mar 21 13 03:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,397
London, England, United Kingdom


Ed Woodson Photography wrote:
The Model can pay costs associated with being the Model.  That includes the gas to get to the shoot location.

Who decides the shoot location? Surely it is them creating the expense.

Mar 21 13 03:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Woodson Photography
Posts: 2,644
Savannah, Georgia, US


JadeDRed wrote:
Who decides the shoot location? Surely it is them creating the expense.

I frequently speak with models concerning trade shoots.  Sometimes, they are a distance from me.

They tell me that they will be happy to travel to me for the TF shoot if I pay their gas expense.  Or, I can come to them and do the TF shoot.  I'll ask if they're will to pay my gas expense?  The answer is invariably "no".

So,

If it's a trade shoot.

We're both investing time.

I'll pay all of the costs associated with being the photographer, including the time to edit and retouch.  And, when necessary, the gas expense to travel to the location.

The Model can pay costs associated with being the Model.  That includes the gas to get to the shoot location.

edit:  A lot of this entire thing depends on who contacted who for the shoot.

Mar 21 13 03:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
V for Victory Modeling
Posts: 436
Roseville, California, US


JadeDRed wrote:
Who decides the shoot location? Surely it is them creating the expense.

I agree with this. In situations where the photographer contacts me, we discuss locations and they prefer their location...I ask if they are "open" to splitting the gas cost if I travel to them. Not rude or tacky...it's business. They can say yes or no and both parties can decide whether or not to pursue the shoot. I know it's a generalization, but I agree with another poster that photographers seem to be better of financially than the model...not to say that all of them are, but it seems like more models than photographers do not drive on this forum (self included...which is another reason travel is difficult) which has some relation to not being able to afford a vehicle. Also consider cost of gas these days....even with a small compact car, I'm still forking out $40-50 a week since my husband and I share a vehicle.

Mar 21 13 04:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13,046
Nashville, Tennessee, US


Tacky. My work is either worth traveling for or it isn't. When money changes hands, it's no longer a barter shoot. If I'm not trying to nickel and dime you for culling and retouching, backup, as well as shooting and studio / location expense.....wouldn't it only be fitting to invest in yourself as well?
Mar 21 13 04:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,531
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Jay Farrell wrote:
Tacky. My work is either worth traveling for or it isn't. When money changes hands, it's no longer a barter shoot. If I'm not trying to nickel and dime you for culling and retouching, backup, as well as shooting and studio / location expense.....wouldn't it only be fitting to invest in yourself as well?

fine.  no gas money for you.  I'll expect you at noon on Saturday. I expect your legs shaved and hair neatly groomed. remember to park on the left side of the driveway smile

Mar 21 13 05:16 pm  Link  Quote 
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