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first12
Photographer
curiosa des yeux
Posts: 1,457
Seattle, Washington, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
4)  Even in TF* situations, the photographer winds up with the copyright.  We expect the model to be satisfied with limited usage or one-time payment, but if the photographer is any good, those copyrights are much more valuable than what the model gets.


You guys can do what you want -- you don't have to give the model gas money.  That's perfectly fine.  But in my book, photographers crying "it's not fair" tend to overlook the value of the copyrights they enjoy.

Copyright is worth little or nothing without a signed model release. IMHO, models should never sign a release for a trade or test shoot. Equally, photographers should never provide a signed usage agreement. Both parties should benefit only by self promotion using the images, in which case it is equally beneficial. The only way the copyright makes it favor the photographer is if the images are commercially viable, which isn't possible without a model release.

Mar 21 13 06:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
curiosa des yeux
Posts: 1,457
Seattle, Washington, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
With all due respect, I disagree with this sentiment.

1)  Models tend to be younger than photographers, and that often implies that the models are not as financially established & secure as the photographer.

I used to think along these lines, but after many years of doing people favors I've come to a different conclusion. I want people to be vested in a project. A person who let's $10-20 worth of gas be an issue is simply not vested enough in the shoot.

Again, my comments are toward those who want gas money to come across town, not those who are actually traveling.

I play on a rec league team (sport doesn't matter) and we have a roster of guys that range all ages. It also ranges all financial demographics. The guy who runs the team decided to give a young kid (at least a kid to us) a break and let him play without paying at all because he couldn't afford to. As a result, he only shows up to about every 4th or 5th game and is completely unreliable. He has no vested interest in the outcome because it didn't cost him anything. It's just not important. Others on the team, like myself, just scrape together enough money to pay the season's dues, and we are all there every possible game. We are all vested and we care about the outcome.

If it isn't important enough for a local model to find a way to get to and from a shoot with the budget you have, I'm simply not interested in working with you because I want people who give a damn. I want people to want to shoot with me. There is no one on this site that couldn't scrape $10-20 worth of gas money together in a couple weeks time if it really mattered to them. So again, does it really matter to them?

Mar 21 13 06:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,831
Olivet, Michigan, US


JOEL McDONALD wrote:
ok. I just got this from the IRS...

According to the IRS,

ANY cash given to a model as a freelance (1099) individual, regardless of amount or purpose, is considered "pay for services" IF it was prearranged prior to the shoot, a condition of the shoot or asked for by the model during or after the shoot.

IF money is given to the model, by photographer, without it being pre-agreed upon or requested then is NOT pay and is simply considered a "gift".

So, as I read it; as a "paid" shoot the images potentially could be handled differently than those from a TF shoot in terms of image usage and purpose.

So, the model is "paid" $10 plus x number of images.  Is that a problem?

Mar 21 13 07:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SitronStudio
Posts: 1,058
Venice, Florida, US


Most models have to drive a couple hours to get to my studio. I don't mind giving them gas money if the shoot depends on it, and I really want to shoot them. I was a little surprised recently when a model needed gas money, then shows up diving a jaguar with a wardrobe still in the dry cleaner bags. I burst out laughing. They explained after all their expenses, they have no money left for gas!
Mar 22 13 04:55 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,379
London, England, United Kingdom


curiosa des yeux wrote:
Copyright is worth little or nothing without a signed model release. IMHO, models should never sign a release for a trade or test shoot. Equally, photographers should never provide a signed usage agreement.

Remember I'm coming from a different place in that regard, I'm in the UK.

And photographers tend to be very, very pissy about a model suggesting they should in anyway restrict their usage of the images, TFP or otherwise.

I'd rather agree a 'fee' that i'm happy with, whether that includes money, images, prints, expenses, than waste time trying to somehow make everything 'equal'.

Mar 22 13 05:44 am  Link  Quote 
Model
V for Victory Modeling
Posts: 436
Roseville, California, US


Some of us literally have to live off of $20 a week...so in that regard, $10-15 for a shoot or to feed myself...I think I'll not starve. (Poor college student here) When I have a better paying job, this obviously won't be an issue...but travelling for some of us is a big expense and there's also additional wear and tear on the car which means more costs of maintenance.
Mar 22 13 08:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,021
Portland, Oregon, US


Ed Woodson Photography wrote:
If it's a trade shoot.

We're both investing time. < snip >

Only one party gets the copyright.
Only the photographer can profit from writing usage licenses for the images.
If there is a watermark, it is the photographer's nearly all of the time.
Only one party typically gets to make selection & editing decisions.

Yeah -- it's equitable.

Mar 22 13 10:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,021
Portland, Oregon, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
4)  Even in TF* situations, the photographer winds up with the copyright.  We expect the model to be satisfied with limited usage or one-time payment, but if the photographer is any good, those copyrights are much more valuable than what the model gets.


You guys can do what you want -- you don't have to give the model gas money.  That's perfectly fine.  But in my book, photographers crying "it's not fair" tend to overlook the value of the copyrights they enjoy.
curiosa des yeux wrote:
Copyright is worth little or nothing without a signed model release. IMHO, models should never sign a release for a trade or test shoot. Equally, photographers should never provide a signed usage agreement. Both parties should benefit only by self promotion using the images, in which case it is equally beneficial. The only way the copyright makes it favor the photographer is if the images are commercially viable, which isn't possible without a model release.

Sorry, again I respectfully disagree.

Many experienced photographers (including me) won't make a single exposure without a signed release.

"Commercially viable" is only one measure -- fine art is made for art's sake and can be profitable, too.  Who knows -- sometimes the fates align during TF* shoots.  Besides, the way I interpreted the OP, we aren't exclusively talking about TF* situations.


curiosa des yeux wrote:
I used to think along these lines, but after many years of doing people favors I've come to a different conclusion. I want people to be vested in a project. A person who let's $10-20 worth of gas be an issue is simply not vested enough in the shoot.

Like I said, you guys can do what you want.  But a model's enthusiasm won't pay for transportation, and I do remember a time when I had maybe $0.01 to my name.

Mar 22 13 10:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


I really don't think money should exchange hands in a TF deal.  Everyone including the photographer has expenses.  If you want an arrangement that includes expense reimbursement, it's no longer a TF deal.
Mar 22 13 10:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


curiosa des yeux wrote:

Copyright is worth little or nothing without a signed model release. IMHO, models should never sign a release for a trade or test shoot. Equally, photographers should never provide a signed usage agreement. Both parties should benefit only by self promotion using the images, in which case it is equally beneficial. The only way the copyright makes it favor the photographer is if the images are commercially viable, which isn't possible without a model release.

Technically in most areas, you don't need a signed model release for a print to be commercially viable, especially if the image was taken in a public place.  A standard model release has very little to do with copyright law.  Without a release, in most cases, the photographer has all rights to the image.

Mar 22 13 10:22 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Meghan Hale
Posts: 335
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada


I drive about an hour for each shoot I do. On my profile I have written that some gas money for TFP shoots would be great, but I don't demand it.
Mar 22 13 10:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


Mar 22 13 10:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
studio 209
Posts: 10
Vernon, British Columbia, Canada


My policy for TF is to pick up the tab for the talent. For example, next weekend I have a special shoot which requires three nude models. The shoot will be weather-contingent, so they'll actually need to be available for three days. We'll shoot some other studio stuff while they're here. My out-of-pocket (so far) is round-trip airfare ($1200), hotel room ($700), special props ($800), and helicopter ($600 - fuel only). $3300 and we haven't taken an image yet. (For the record though, this is most extreme example I've undertaken. Usually it just runs one flight and hotel room for one night overstay)

These are ladies I have worked with before and have a terrific relationship with. With any luck, we will make something unbelievable happen.

Having said that, I have not yet used a MM model. The very few that have contacted me regarding TF have placed such initial demands in terms of what they expect, I have been completely turned me off. "You'll only take the style of images I want", "I expect to get a diigital copy of each image in unedited full-res", "I expect to get all my edited copies within three days", "You can't put copyright notices on my images".

If I accepted those terms, then you can be sure the model will paying for a helluva lot more than just a gas bill.

John
Mar 22 13 10:44 am  Link  Quote 
Model
V for Victory Modeling
Posts: 436
Roseville, California, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:

Like I said, you guys can do what you want.  But a model's enthusiasm won't pay for transportation, and I do remember a time when I had maybe $0.01 to my name.

+10

Mar 22 13 11:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Azimuth Arts
Posts: 1,475
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Valerie Kelly wrote:
What do all of you think about asking for partial gas contribution for TF shoots that involve traveling to the photographer or model? I usually don't ask for this if I am the one to initiate contact, but if someone initiates contact with me to travel to them, I ask if they are open to partial gas contribution. Now if we're both travelling to a location, this would be a moot point. I am just on a very strict budget at the moment until I graduate college this summer and find a better job, so if I am contacted to travel to them, I put this out there.

If I made first contact with the model offering TF I might be willing to cover some expenses to get her there - but I would likely offer this as part of the incentive.  I would likely move on to the next model if after asking for a trade with a local model she responded with a request for a small gas fee.  I'd be more likely to respond positively if she just asked for her rates instead.

If you contact me, or respond to a casting call, then I won't ask you for cash and I expect you won't ask me.

The point of a trade is that we all have to put forward some expenses to make it happen.  The dollar amounts and time input will likely be different.  Usually I am paying for studio rental, plus my own transport, maybe paying for some props or wardrobe specifically for this shoot.  I'd say for the last 10-15 trade shoots my out of pocket for that specific shoot was at least 5 times the models.  But I would never imagine asking the models to help cover my expenses.

I've never worked a trade with a model coming from more than 50 miles so they can get there for under $25 in gas or public transit.  If someone were flying in for a trade I might consider helping out with some of the cost - but they'd have to be a really top-rate model.

Just my $0.02

Mar 22 13 11:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Model Art Photo
Posts: 636
Monterey, California, US


I don't mind throwing something a model's way if they are traveling outside their local area to here.  Usually though I try to pick a location that is halfway if they are not local, then usually there's no worry about gas.

But it does go both ways.  My muse bought me a pancake breakfast this week after I drove her between shoots.  wink
Mar 22 13 07:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


JadeDRed wrote:
Who decides the shoot location? Surely it is them creating the expense.

Models with the right look are always welcome to come and shoot (for free) at my home studio - I won't charge them for the electricity my lights use or for wear and tear on my background papers from their pointy-heeled shoes - heck, I'll even throw in a cup of tea and maybe a bed for the night too - but I very rarely pay travel expenses.

Of course, if a model with the right look wanted to shoot with me on a trade basis AND happened to have her own fully equipped studio within 100 yards of my house then I might consider shooting elsewhere, but strangely, that's never happened yet...




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Mar 22 13 07:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Digital Artist
Select Imagery
Posts: 314
Colorado Springs, Colorado, US


Valerie Kelly wrote:
What do all of you think about asking for partial gas contribution for TF shoots that involve traveling to the photographer or model?

No problem with me. When are you going to come be in front of my camera?

Mar 22 13 08:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AYC Photo
Posts: 122
Seattle, Washington, US


Speaks the truth!

-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:

Models with the right look are always welcome to come and shoot (for free) at my home studio - I won't charge them for the electricity my lights use or for wear and tear on my background papers from their pointy-heeled shoes - heck, I'll even throw in a cup of tea and maybe a bed for the night too - but I very rarely pay travel expenses.

Of course, if a model with the right look wanted to shoot with me on a trade basis AND happened to have her own fully equipped studio within 100 yards of my house then I might consider shooting elsewhere, but strangely, that's never happened yet...




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Mar 22 13 08:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,440
Los Angeles, California, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:

With all due respect, I disagree with this sentiment.

1)  Models tend to be younger than photographers, and that often implies that the models are not as financially established & secure as the photographer.

2)  In my experience, either both the photographer & the model are traveling, or the model is traveling to the photographer.  I don't tend to hear about situations where the photographer is traveling to the model's home or place of business.

3)  Typically, the photographer's studio is set up the way the photographer wants it set up.  That includes the presence or absence of snacks.

4)  Even in TF* situations, the photographer winds up with the copyright.  We expect the model to be satisfied with limited usage or one-time payment, but if the photographer is any good, those copyrights are much more valuable than what the model gets.


You guys can do what you want -- you don't have to give the model gas money.  That's perfectly fine.  But in my book, photographers crying "it's not fair" tend to overlook the value of the copyrights they enjoy.

Apparently, some people have no sense of humor !

Mar 22 13 08:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,021
Portland, Oregon, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Apparently, some people have no sense of humor !

+1

Mar 23 13 02:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 16,722
El Segundo, California, US


JadeDRed wrote:
There is not right or wrong, no morality or agenda, just an agreement between two people. Trying to sum it up as 'well the model should' or 'if he respects me he should' or 'a REAL professional would' is just nonsense to try and push people to do things to your benefit.

Yup.

Some photographers and some models seem to be heavily invested in what OTHER photographers SHOULD do.

My own take is that if the parties involved are happy, and no laws were broken, it's good. Whether its a TFP, test, unpaid test, or paid shoot. Getting hung up on minutia isn't going to help: $1.00 either way might technically be 'paid', but, really, is it?

Mar 23 13 03:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13,026
Nashville, Tennessee, US


Kevin Connery wrote:

Yup.

Some photographers and some models seem to be heavily invested in what OTHER photographers SHOULD do.

My own take is that if the parties involved are happy, and no laws were broken, it's good. Whether its a TFP, test, unpaid test, or paid shoot. Getting hung up on minutia isn't going to help: $1.00 either way might technically be 'paid', but, really, is it?

I agree.....but she did ask. I answered based on how I'd feel if asked. It almost says "I want to shoot with you but I don't want a dime to come out of my pocket to do so" and it seems tacky and a bait and switch in a way.....especially if not asked early in the communication. It would feel the same way to many models if we started asking for gas money to locations or tips to make up for lenses, Photoshop and Lightroom, etc. We both bring our respective talents to the table. We both have our own set of expenses and investments.

Mar 23 13 04:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
V for Victory Modeling
Posts: 436
Roseville, California, US


Jay Farrell wrote:

I agree.....but she did ask. I answered based on how I'd feel if asked. It almost says "I want to shoot with you but I don't want a dime to come out of my pocket to do so" and it seems tacky and a bait and switch in a way.....especially if not asked early in the communication. It would feel the same way to many models if we started asking for gas money to locations or tips to make up for lenses, Photoshop and Lightroom, etc. We both bring our respective talents to the table. We both have our own set of expenses and investments.

.

For some of us it isn't "because we don't want a dime coming out of our pocket" but rather it comes down to gas getting to a shoot or feeding myself off of $20 for a week. Maybe I should just advertise rates than TF, but I don't see what a big deal $10-15 is rather than $25 per hour for shooting.

Mar 23 13 06:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13,026
Nashville, Tennessee, US


Valerie Kelly wrote:

.

For some of us it isn't "because we don't want a dime coming out of our pocket" but rather it comes down to gas getting to a shoot or feeding myself off of $20 for a week. Maybe I should just advertise rates than TF, but I don't see what a big deal $10-15 is rather than $25 per hour for shooting.

That's fine if that's what's agreed on.....but there is value to what both parties provide. I can see if the only goal is to shoot for fun, and the photographer needs you more than you need their work in your port....but then you should be charging them to shoot. The whole idea of TF work is to increase the value of your port, and if you want to get paid assignments, that body of work being your tool to do that.

It may be you're looking for validation, that's fine.....I just can't get behind it personally, it seems petty and tacky. If the shoot doesn't have value, then it's not worth doing.

Mar 23 13 08:05 pm  Link  Quote 
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