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Model
Krisna Fretwell
Posts: 18
Reno, Nevada, US


Hi. I've heard controversy on escorts. Some say they're a smart idea and others say they're not. (Personally i won't go without one because of past experiences) but what is your take on it? Just trying to understand the opposing side of it I suppose
Mar 21 13 10:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotographia Fantastique
Posts: 17,324
Lebanon, New Hampshire, US


This is a big can of worms. Which is why CLT's Survival guide for newbies recommends avoiding the topic:
http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=117121

You would do better to use the search function. TONS has been written on this subject.

(here's what it gives http://www.modelmayhem.com/sitesearch/forums/results )

One MMer has their own search tool that is also pretty good.
http://www.sendu.me.uk/modelmayhem/?tex … rt_order=0
Mar 21 13 11:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SH PhotographyAndDesign
Posts: 170
Chester, Virginia, US


Some photographers feel that escorts will be too much of a distraction or be in the way. Some also feel they have no purpose to be there if they aren't engaging in the photo or helping with anything.

I don't mind someone having an escort so long as they are not in my way. Sometimes I'll even ask the escort to help if I need it and they don't mind. If it helps the model feel more comfortable having someone there he/she knows it will also make the session go smoother. It is a good safety precaution and even I as a photographer take someone with me if I feel it'll be necessary.
Mar 21 13 11:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JOEL McDONALD
Posts: 608
Portland, Oregon, US


I no longer permit in-studio escorts. I have plenty of model reference links on my MM profile for a model to contact and verify.
Mar 21 13 11:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


I find llama herders almost as amusing as models with no experience who have a laundry list of demands and troll the llama herder topic in multiple threads.
Mar 21 13 11:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Top Gun Digital
Posts: 1,217
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Krisna Fretwell  wrote:
Hi. I've heard controversy on escorts. Some say they're a smart idea and others say they're not. (Personally i won't go without one because of past experiences) but what is your take on it? Just trying to understand the opposing side of it I suppose

I do understand that models have concerns about personal safety and I am sympathetic to those concerns.  However, I do not allow escorts.  In place of an escort I offer to have my wife present if it will make the model feel more comfortable.  I also can offer the names of models that have worked with me in the past as references.

I don't allow escorts because just as models have had bad experiences so have photographers.  Models have brought husbands or boyfriends that ended up disrupting the shoot.  If they don't disrupt the shoot they are frequently a distraction.  In some cases the escorts have turned out to be thieves.

Each side has a story to tell and each person has to decide what's right for them.

Mar 21 13 11:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,016
Chicago, Illinois, US


OP, if you hired someone too work for you would you allow them to make demands and set conditions.   I would never allow a model to bring a llama herder to any shoot I'm paying for.   I don't allow them for TF either.   You are free to do as you see fit but odds are you are missing out on paid work and working with better shooters as well.   There are other ways to help insure your safety.
Mar 21 13 11:25 am  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
Chain Reaction
Posts: 529
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


popcorn
Mar 21 13 11:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hi_Spade Photography
Posts: 897
Darlington, South Carolina, US


My view on "escorts" is...if you need a "escort" then you're not mature enough or smart enough to figure out how this buisness works, therefore you should stay in the sandbox until you can figure it out.
Mar 21 13 11:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Faze1 photography
Posts: 562
Lawndale, California, US


Krisna Fretwell  wrote:
Hi. I've heard controversy on escorts. Some say they're a smart idea and others say they're not. (Personally i won't go without one because of past experiences) but what is your take on it? Just trying to understand the opposing side of it I suppose

I use to be all for the escort thing for the 1st shoot but I think my mind has changed now! Just in the past year and a half I've experienced some really odd things. Lets say there has been more than 6 or 7 things I can think of reflecting back, right off the top of my head. The last 3 has really made me reconsider this option. 1st was a friend of mine was shooting a agency approve model that he had paid to help upgrade his book. We sometimes assist each other to keep from being alone with the models and other artist and it also gives you an extra set of eyes from someone who has knowledge of what it takes to have a successful production. The model boyfriend just didn't seem right to me for some reason. He often pulled her to the side whispering and going out side for smoke breaks. Just didn't feel right! To make a long story short my buddy left home to go to his studio for an am shoot when he realized everything was gone. Mac computers, lighting, etc... you name it! The http://assets.modelmayhem.com/images/smilies/scary.pngpart is that he almost spent the night there but decided to take the long trip home. #2 I was booked to shoot a swim line for a designers look book. Total of 6 models for the first shoot. Three of the models I've worked with before. 2 models canceled at the last minute so the model I've worked with said she just shot with a few models that were worth calling. So, she did just that. With it being so last minute I went against my closed shoot rule! Well, one of the 2 models had two other young ladies that came along. End of the shoot $800 and wallets were missing. Last incident that just happen 2-3 weeks ago was Model shows up with boyfriend who she claimed was her support system(LOL)!! Model seems different by the second look, my assistant which happen to be a former model was making facial expression that caught my attention. Before I could say anything my assistant blurts out "I smell Vodka"!! Someone drinking?!! Shook my head thinking how unprofessional was that, until the model said, "yes I'm so sorry"!! She proceed on to explain her boyfriends Coffee container was full of Vodka, it's how she relax when she is nervous. I rushed 6 more poses out of her and called it a day. The part that has bothered me most is that I grew up in the worst part of Compton as kid and could usually see these things a mile away! The fact that these people came from a wealthy areas fooled me is now bothering me. I'm thinking that because you can't judge a book by it's cover, and everything is so impersonal now (hide behind text, hide real phone numbers, email me, etc..) that I must rethink the escort thing. It seems the odds are against me. Not a good feeling!!

Mar 21 13 11:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 20,987
Portland, Oregon, US


Escort Pros:
...  Model feels safe.
...  Escorts can be handy (holding reflectors, for example).

Escort Cons:
...  Escorts & models have been known to beat up & rob photographers.
...  Escorts can distract and/or inhibit models.
...  Escorts can draw model's focus away from the photographer / camera.
...  Escorts can become visibly bored, distracting the people working.
...  Escorts have been known to wander around, opening drawers, invading privacy.

Escort Strategies:
...  Check the escort's references.
...  Have the escort drop off the model, look around, leave, and come back later at
     an appropriate time to pick the model up.
...  But by all means, discuss the presence of an escort before agreeing to
      the terms of the shoot.
Mar 21 13 11:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,016
Chicago, Illinois, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
llama herder Pros:
...  Model feels safe.
...  llama herders can be handy (holding reflectors, for example).

llama herder Cons:
...  llama herders
Mar 21 13 11:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,612
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Read your profile and noted that the fact that you require a model release indicates that you really have no idea what you're talking about. Likewise, your stance on requiring an escort tells me it's amateur hour in Victorville.
Mar 21 13 12:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JohnEnger
Posts: 731
Jessheim, Akershus, Norway


Krisna Fretwell  wrote:
Hi. I've heard controversy on escorts. Some say they're a smart idea and others say they're not. (Personally i won't go without one because of past experiences) but what is your take on it? Just trying to understand the opposing side of it I suppose

In 5 out of 5 times the chaperone/escort has been a jealous boyfriend. So I'd rather not shoot then.

Mar 21 13 12:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,612
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:
I find escorts almost as amusing as models with no experience who have a laundry list of demands and troll the escort topic in multiple threads.

And apparently we're supposed to pay for the privilege.

Mar 21 13 12:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,620
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


There's only one word I need when I see "I require an escort" in the model's profile ......... NEXT!
Mar 21 13 12:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ash Photographic
Posts: 378
Cirencester, England, United Kingdom


ForeverFotos wrote:
There's only one word I need when I see "I require an escort" in the model's profile ......... NEXT!

+1

And the same goes for models who demand that I sign paperwork too! yikes


Ash.

Mar 21 13 12:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,620
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
Escort Strategies:
...  Check the escort's references.
------snip------

How in the hell do you check the escort's references when 99 out of 100 llamas don't even know the "escort's" name an hour before shoot time? Too many times the "escort" I've seen has been some guy the llama met at a bar the night before. Maybe the llama can tell you which Hell's Angels chapter he came from, but that's only from looking at his colors on the way to the shoot.

Mar 21 13 12:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bare Essential Photos
Posts: 3,294
Upland, California, US


My take on the escort issue is ...

1) I shoot with models who don't need an escort.
2) I pass on models who want to bring an escort.

*I've sent models back home when they've brought along an escort even though they were informed that I don't accept them.

For me it's that simple.
Mar 21 13 12:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,006
New York, New York, US


ForeverFotos wrote:
There's only one word I need when I see "I require an escort" in the model's profile ......... NEXT!

Agreed.

Mar 21 13 12:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,518
Salinas, California, US


Krisna Fretwell  wrote:
Hi. I've heard controversy on escorts. Some say they're a smart idea and others say they're not. (Personally i won't go without one because of past experiences) but what is your take on it? Just trying to understand the opposing side of it I suppose

Open you mind and your mouth to TALK with the photographers that you might work with!!!   Having an "All or nothing" attitude towards photographers and the topic of "escorts" can be dangerous as it's the closed mind that gets blindsided.

If there was ever a photographer who should be "anti" escort, it would be me, because back in 1992, I was kidnapped by two women ... one posing as a model and the other was her "escort" but more like an assistant in the crime.  I met them at a nightclub where my band had been playing and we took a ride over to my studio that night without me knowing who they were.  Both myself and the two women blew through red flags that night to do a photo shoot.

It wasn't that I was afraid the women would hurt me, it was the way the one women drove, I thought I might die in a car crash.  I've written in more detail about it on earlier threads, but the incident taught me a lesson.  Other than that one single night, I've had no problems with invited guests, and it's extremely rare that a model ever flakes on me.  What do I do that is so different?  I communicate!

Intuition works only if you've exchanged enough information.  So many people are shocked when after depending on messages on a website, emailing, and perhaps even texting ... that when they meet someone, it's not what they expected!  I take the time to check someone out.  I'm not saying to avoid using technology to communicate, but what I am saying is balance your communication using all methods. 

We exchange phone numbers and TALK with each other long enough before I consider a shoot booked.  Meet in person in advance if you feel it will help!  For those who complain about speaking, well how do you think we used to do it before the Internet and texting capabilities on cell phones?   I advertised in newspapers, people would call me.  We'd set up an appointment to meet.  Sometimes I ran casting calls where a number of models would show up.  Minor aged models might show up with a parent, but mostly no one brought another person with them in those days.

You can certainly learn to trust people, but do so smartly!  Most photographers, MUA's, models, and others are wonderful positive people!  Take your time getting to know people and you will build your own confidence enough so that "escorts" wont be anything at all.  It's invited or uninvited guests with me!  I also an happy to work with models that like to split the proceeds from charging spectators.  Seriously!  If you're going to have other people at a shoot, they should either be doing something OR paying to be there.   Work with like minded people!

Mar 21 13 12:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eastfist
Posts: 3,524
Green Bay, Wisconsin, US


For me, personally, it's a matter of inhibiting creativity and most importantly for my own safety (as the photographer). I may be a big man, but I'm not stupid.
Mar 21 13 12:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,436
Los Angeles, California, US


What a great idea for a forum discussion . . . .
Mar 21 13 12:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,518
Salinas, California, US


The vast majority of model I shoot with will not bring anyone with them.   When they do, it's usually the first time we meet.  Then after we've exchanged enough information, we get to work!  It's typical for models to want to introduce me to MUA's, and other models that they think I might like to shoot with, OR often times we are in the same circle of acquaintances so it's going to be a fun gathering.  We all have such a great time!   

My personality is bold!  I do understand that not everyone is the same.  Where as I'm great with shooting in front of a couple people or a couple thousand, not everyone is like me.  Even though I am open to shooting in public places, on stage and so on ... there are models who are not so extroverted.  I don't make you get on stage or shoot in front of other people.  I do have some models that come to me and ask that no one else be in the studio.  The reason is that I took the time to become friends with them and put them at ease, but they are shy.  Often times, those are the models that pay me.


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
What a great idea for a forum discussion . . . .

So photographers and models alike!   What would you think of charging spectators to watch you work?  Ken Marcus, I'd start with you!   I'd pay $50 to sit in on one of your photo sessions.   Maybe that wouldn't be enough for a seat in your studio?  How about $100?  Are you game for it?

Mar 21 13 12:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bob Young Photography
Posts: 37
San Jose, California, US


My take on it is that in every shoot I've allowed an escort to be present is that the escort has been a distraction to either me or the model.  It's not that it has been a terror story, but certainly counterproductive to the shoot.  If a model requires an escort for safety sake I will offer plenty of options which should allow the model to get to know me before the shoot (come check out the location or give references).  If that's not acceptable I'll find another model.
Mar 21 13 12:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,829
Santa Ana, California, US


Krisna Fretwell  wrote:
...Personally i won't go without one because of past experiences.

Personally, you and your escort would never get near my studio.

Mar 21 13 12:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 27,148
Dearborn, Michigan, US


No problem.  I won't shoot with you.
Mar 21 13 12:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Yan Tan Tethera
Posts: 4,162
Biggleswade, England, United Kingdom


Jerry Nemeth wrote:
No problem.  I won't shoot with you.

There are two situations here.

a) Internet model - take your escort and find photographers who accept models - earn a few hundred here and there

b) professional work - escorts totally unacceptable under any circumstances

If you're in category a) make your decisions

But you'll never get to category b while you're stuck in category a

Mar 21 13 01:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 27,148
Dearborn, Michigan, US


Yan Tan Tethera wrote:
There are two situations here.

a) Internet model - take your escort and find photographers who accept models - earn a few hundred here and there

b) professional work - escorts totally unacceptable under any circumstances

If you're in category a) make your decisions

But you'll never get to category b while you're stuck in category a

I have photographed many different models.  Some that I first met when they arrived for the shoot.  None of them have required an escort!

Mar 21 13 01:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
V for Victory Modeling
Posts: 436
Roseville, California, US


Krisna Fretwell  wrote:
Hi. I've heard controversy on escorts. Some say they're a smart idea and others say they're not. (Personally i won't go without one because of past experiences) but what is your take on it? Just trying to understand the opposing side of it I suppose

Another escort thread! Who knew?!

Mar 21 13 01:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
V for Victory Modeling
Posts: 436
Roseville, California, US


Top Gun Digital wrote:

I do understand that models have concerns about personal safety and I am sympathetic to those concerns.  However, I do not allow escorts.  In place of an escort I offer to have my wife present if it will make the model feel more comfortable.  I also can offer the names of models that have worked with me in the past as references.

This is a great idea. I actually recently worked with a photographer who had his wife present and helped with the shoot. We had a great time!

Mar 21 13 01:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2,309
New York, New York, US


Krisna Fretwell  wrote:
Hi. I've heard controversy on escorts. Some say they're a smart idea and others say they're not. (Personally i won't go without one because of past experiences) but what is your take on it? Just trying to understand the opposing side of it I suppose

As everything else in life that involves different interests, I see it this way...

Main reasons given by llama and the photographer's response:

Model- I require an escort because:

1. My escort will protect me from the creepy photographer.
2. My escort will make me feel comfortable, in otherwise uncomfortable situations.
3. My escort will provide safe company on my way, or drive me to the shoot.

(note: I know there are additional "reasons", but those seem to be the most commonly used ones.)

Photographer

1. "Who protects me from your escort? If s/he has bad intentions, stealing is the least of my worries. I should trust your escort?? I don't even know you, besides you don't even trust ME, why should I trust YOU?"
2. "I hired you, because you are experienced, AND because you are an adult. If you can't deal with uncomfortable situations on your own, then stop trying to act like one (professional or adult), and move back in with your parents."
3. That's not an escort. That is a travel guide or a driver. No need to have your driver participate in your llamaing.

That pretty much sums up 99% of the arguments that begin when someone starts an "Escort" thread. This is now the 7,328th "original" Escort thread.

Mar 21 13 01:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Justin Foto
Posts: 3,605
Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland


Krisna Fretwell  wrote:
Hi. I've heard controversy on escorts. Some say they're a smart idea and others say they're not. (Personally i won't go without one because of past experiences) but what is your take on it? Just trying to understand the opposing side of it I suppose

Since you've opened this can of worms; mind telling us what the experiences were?

Mar 21 13 01:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,262
Salem, Oregon, US


these threads rarely end well.

if you want to have someone on set with you (other than a MUA or maybe a female model friend) then that may limit the photographers you can work with. it is what it is. i don't think anyone's mind has ever been changed by one of these threads.

for our part we allow escorts and so far haven't ever had any major problems.
Mar 21 13 01:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 8,123
Olney, Maryland, US


Krisna Fretwell  wrote:
Hi. I've heard controversy on escorts. Some say they're a smart idea and others say they're not. (Personally i won't go without one because of past experiences) but what is your take on it? Just trying to understand the opposing side of it I suppose

After much deliberation, I've decided that if the model intends to bring an escort, I will bring one also - just for my own safety.

-- Just my own take --

Mar 21 13 01:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Krisna Fretwell
Posts: 18
Reno, Nevada, US


Thank you to those of you that have actually answered my question smile
I'm not here to argue back with those that have a smart aleck response.
I appreciate the insight smile
Mar 21 13 01:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2,309
New York, New York, US


A common piece of advice: let people know where you plan to be, check in during a break and especially when you arrive, and have someone expect you or a phonecall at a certain time.

There is nothing unprofessional about doing any of those things, and it helps you stay on schedule. It certainly eliminates the negative connotation associated with models that treat going to a photoshoot as their first day of school.
Mar 21 13 01:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


You shouldn't even be allowed to write 'escort' in the forums anymore. It should be forbidden!
Mar 21 13 02:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DarrylPascoePhotography
Posts: 455
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Great another escort thread with absolutely positively no "right" answer period.
Mar 21 13 02:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
pullins photography
Posts: 5,877
Troy, Michigan, US


Krisna Fretwell  wrote:
Hi. I've heard controversy on escorts. Some say they're a smart idea and others say they're not. (Personally i won't go without one because of past experiences) but what is your take on it? Just trying to understand the opposing side of it I suppose

I was going to say, this is one sore topic...
I guess you will be limited to those who allow such.

Mar 21 13 02:14 pm  Link  Quote 
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