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Photographer
JOEL McDONALD
Posts: 608
Portland, Oregon, US


"All offers will be reviewed by my manager and I will bring an escort to all first shoots. "

This sentence is on the profile of a model that recently responded to a Casting Call.

Does a "manager" strike anyone as an odd thing for a 5'3" newbie. What does a model manager actually do that an Agency can't?

I've read on Forum threads that these "managers" can often get in the way of the model/photographer relationship and creativity.

Anyone have experience, pro/con with this?
Mar 23 13 07:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13,046
Nashville, Tennessee, US


My response would be something like....All offers I made have been withdrawn....have fun with your sluggo and your stooge escort, next model please!
Mar 23 13 07:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,109
New York, New York, US


The manager is usually daddy or the boyfriend!...I would pass on any profile like that.
Mar 23 13 07:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13,046
Nashville, Tennessee, US


Marin Photography wrote:
The manager is usually daddy or the boyfriend!...I would pass on any profile like that.

Or some GWC photographer who likes control....bad news. And dumb ass girls like that fall for it. You aren't that hard up for a shoot to deal with that. People who do are only enabling that ridiculous behavior.

Mar 23 13 07:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L2Photography net
Posts: 2,519
University City, Missouri, US


Next manager is boyfriend that knows nothing about the business, just wants to control and try to impress the girlfriend
Mar 23 13 07:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JOEL McDONALD
Posts: 608
Portland, Oregon, US


Sort of my take too.

Pretty girl. Great build. But all her port images were uploaded in 2009. Nothing current and she's now 24.

All sounds very odd.
Mar 23 13 07:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13,046
Nashville, Tennessee, US


JOEL McDONALD wrote:
Sort of my take too.

Pretty girl. Great build. But all her port images were uploaded in 2009. Nothing current and she's now 24.

All sounds very odd.

There's a reason for that lol. If the sluggo himself ever contacts me, I become a very rude individual big_smile

Mar 23 13 07:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JOEL McDONALD
Posts: 608
Portland, Oregon, US


So my gut reaction to say thanks but no thanks was spot on then. Good.

Thanks.
Mar 23 13 07:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13,046
Nashville, Tennessee, US


JOEL McDONALD wrote:
So my gut reaction to say thanks but no thanks was spot on then. Good.

Thanks.

Indeed! She can kiss her opportunity goodbye, to shoot with anyone who can give her a quality portfolio.

Mar 23 13 08:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,109
New York, New York, US


JOEL McDONALD wrote:
So my gut reaction to say thanks but no thanks was spot on then. Good.

Thanks.

Yep, the first instinct is usually right!

I am pretty sure there was a thread about it recently.  History has a way of repeating itself here on the Mayhem!! haha

Mar 23 13 08:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Model Art Photo
Posts: 636
Monterey, California, US


High maintenance?  Keep on trucking!
Mar 23 13 08:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
OmnyRa
Posts: 1,029
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


I don't think many of them fully think through what a "manager" entails, and are just trying to make photogs aware that someone is looking out for them so they don't try anything shady or inappropriate.  I think they're innocently trying to keep themselves safe.  Newbies and wannabes are being told through more and more sources to not go to a shoot alone or work with an agent, regardless of their skill level or true industry potential.

I wouldn't make that big a deal of it.  I just chuckle and move on.

On that note, weeks back, I gave a card to a woman I wanted to model for me.  The next day, I got a call from her "agent".  Within the first 10 seconds of the call, I could tell this person was no agent and was probably her boyfriend.  They didn't introduce themselves, say the name of the woman they were supposedly representing, never asked what or where the shoot was, what the pics were for, or what it paid.  When I asked who I was speaking to, they replied, "I'm her agent and I get a cut of everything she makes." After I stopped laughing, I actually schooled the fella on what he should and should not say if he was gonna try to help his girlfriend out by screening photographers.


I still don't understand what the hell a "sluggo" is, as all I know is Nancy's friend from the comics, or why his name is attached to people managing models.  Nancy was tougher on Sluggo, wasn't she?
Mar 23 13 08:40 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,076
New York, New York, US


As the others have said, it's usually someone with no knowledge at all of internet modeling or any other sort of modeling.  I've always treated it as a deal breaker.  My guess is that a lot of newbies put it into their profiles thinking that it will scare away the creeps.

My guess is also that it actually only scares away the better photographers that the newbie needs and serves as a challenge for the creeps.  If asked I always warn models against it.
Mar 23 13 08:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
New Art Photo
Posts: 701
Los Angeles, California, US


JOEL McDONALD wrote:
"All offers will be reviewed by my manager and I will bring an escort to all first shoots. "
Anyone have experience, pro/con with this?

Down here, unless they're a pretty successful actress,
I associate "managers" with girls in the sex trade.

Mar 23 13 08:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MCPHOTO
Posts: 731
Duvall, Washington, US


replace manager with boyfriend.
Mar 23 13 08:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Virtual Studio
Posts: 5,619
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Manager = Profession In Managing People.

Make sure you they use the letters after their name to show they are qualified.

Like Joe Manager PIMP - it's the only way you know you're talking to the right person.
Mar 23 13 09:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Erlinda
Posts: 7,036
London, England, United Kingdom


Are managers even allowed here on MM? You might want to report her no?  hmm
Mar 23 13 09:26 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Kaley King
Posts: 1,027
Jefferson City, Missouri, US


I had a company approach me to be my "manager."  After reviewing the contract and seeing that I had to clear all jobs through them, and that they would get a cut of all of my jobs, including ones I booked on my own...I told them shove it.

Seems like some "management" type of stuff is just a way to screw girls out of their money.
Mar 23 13 09:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,178
Portland, Oregon, US


JOEL McDONALD wrote:
"All offers will be reviewed by my manager and I will bring an escort to all first shoots. "

This sentence is on the profile of a llama that recently responded to a Casting Call.

Managers are like hiring temporary workers in June, July,

Mar 23 13 11:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Managing Light
Posts: 1,868
Salem, Virginia, US


JOEL McDONALD wrote:
I've read on Forum threads that these "managers" can often get in the way of the model/photographer relationship and creativity.

Anyone have experience, pro/con with this?

I ran into this down in my little corner of the world a few months ago:  I have been looking for a particular type of model for a project for a long time, and suddenly a newbie popped up with an avatar that really looked like what I needed.  Did a quick look at her port - while amateurish, it looked like this girl would work. 

Then I read her profile.  It was OK, pretty much what you would expect from a newbie - EXCEPT for the last line which was a badly worded statement on the order of "if you're planning on a commercial shoot or video in the $1000 range..."

Holy Shit!  What was she thinking about?  It was too good to resist; I messaged her stating that she seemed to be a good candidate for a project I wanted to do, it was a paid shoot, the shoot involved blah, blah.  But, what is the story on the last line in your profile?

She responded quickly, stating that "my manager made me put that in.  I would not charge you like that."

Whups!  Time to bail.  I returned her message that it seemed to me that this was the kind of cash used for a porno shoot and if she wasn't trolling for that kind of thing she had best be doing some editing and, since managers are not allowed in MM, she had best be getting rid of the sluggo. 

She didn't reply, and I noticed that she quickly completely redid her profile but didn't get any takers for a long time.  Even now, she has one image from a local photog added to the original suite of images she started with.

Too bad.  She would have been perfect, dammit!

Mar 23 13 11:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,580
Salinas, California, US


JOEL McDONALD wrote:
"All offers will be reviewed by my manager and I will bring an escort to all first shoots. "

This sentence is on the profile of a model that recently responded to a Casting Call.

Does a "manager" strike anyone as an odd thing for a 5'3" newbie. What does a model manager actually do that an Agency can't?

I've read on Forum threads that these "managers" can often get in the way of the model/photographer relationship and creativity.

Anyone have experience, pro/con with this?

Take a screen shot of it, and CAM it!  Managers are NOT allowed on here!  Also it's proof that the moderators need to shut down that profile for which the model has already admitted she's given access to that person.


http://www.ripoffreport.com

In over 30 years of shooting, I have not and will not work with so called "model managers" as it is not necessary to have one.

Mar 23 13 12:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,621
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


JOEL McDONALD wrote:
Sort of my take too.

Pretty girl. Great build. But all her port images were uploaded in 2009. Nothing current and she's now 24.

All sounds very odd.

With a profile like hers, I'm betting she gets much older before getting a shoot with a reputable photographer.

Mar 23 13 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
New Art Photo
Posts: 701
Los Angeles, California, US


Virtual Studio wrote:
Manager = Profession In Managing People.

Make sure you they use the letters after their name to show they are qualified.

Like Joe Manager PIMP - it's the only way you know you're talking to the right person.

---LMAO. ( I wasn't  going to "go there" but  that's my thought also.)

Mar 23 13 12:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,345
Salem, Oregon, US


i've hired a few models who were so busy it was really hard to communicate with them. might have been easier if they had a manager. but i guess i'd be paying more for that?

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Nearly all photographers here on MM will dismiss managers out of hand, despite the fact that some really are helpful.

Mar 23 13 12:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,621
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
Managers are like hiring temporary workers in June, July, & August:  Summer help and some are not!

A manager can help an inexperienced & young model:
...  They can weed out the creepy photographers,
...  They can keep the model safe,
...  They can negotiate appropriate deals,
...  They can make sure that all terms are covered explicitly,
...  They can keep the model organized,
...  They can make sure the model arrives prepared,
...  They can make sure the model shows up on time,
...  etc.

Many times, however, managers are bad news:
...  They are judgmental about the photographer,
...  They really don't want the model to model,
...  They overestimate the value of the model,
...  They insist on unreasonable rates,
...  They (as escorts) interfere with the photo session,
...  etc.

Nearly all photographers here on MM will dismiss managers out of hand, despite the fact that some really are helpful.  They don't like managers because even the useful ones tend to negotiate better deals for the model than the photographer can negotiate directly with the less experienced model.  Also, many photographers have double standards -- they expect all models to trust the photographers while at the same time are distrustful of their models.

The difference between a manager & an agency.  An agency's customer is the paying client; a manager's customer is the model.  Agencies tend to be interested in polished, experienced models while managers tend to work with "raw" & inexperienced models.

We've both been through this argument before, and I will reiterate my previous reply here.....

Model "managers" are illegal on MM. They are only perceived to be needed if the model is completely immature and :

...  unable to make the proper decisions to stay safe,
...  unable to remember her own appointments by using a calendar,
...  unable to negotiate her own fair deals,
...  unable to make sure she arrives prepared & on time,
...  unable to take responsibility for her own training and practice,
...  unable to make sure she gets appropriate rest,
...  unable to provide her own transportation,
...  etc.

I have no desire to work with "models" who have never learned to be an adult and need to rely on a "manager"

I will make exceptions for the under 18 model, who is usually managed and escorted by her parents. I have never had a problem with that type of arrangement.

Mar 23 13 01:07 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 21,713
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


ontherocks wrote:
i've hired a few models who were so busy it was really hard to communicate with them. might have been easier if they had a manager. but i guess i'd be paying more for that?

Even they didn't need a "manager". They possibly needed an answering service and / or a secretary. But NOT a "manager."

Studio36

Mar 23 13 01:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25,351
Portland, Oregon, US


JOEL McDONALD wrote:
"All offers will be reviewed by my manager and I will bring an escort to all first shoots. "

This sentence is on the profile of a model that recently responded to a Casting Call.

Does a "manager" strike anyone as an odd thing for a 5'3" newbie. What does a model manager actually do that an Agency can't?

I've read on Forum threads that these "managers" can often get in the way of the model/photographer relationship and creativity.

Anyone have experience, pro/con with this?

manager == sluggo/boyfriend

Mar 23 13 01:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DBVE Imaging
Posts: 1,907
Fort Worth, Texas, US


Next...
Mar 23 13 01:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,178
Portland, Oregon, US


ForeverFotos wrote:
We've both been through this argument before, and I will reiterate my previous reply here.....

Model "managers" are illegal on MM.

First off, managers are not "illegal" on MM.  From the "Membership Requirements":

   You Must Be You
   We do not allow profiles to be set up or managed by people other than the profile
   owner. Passwords and login information should always be kept private.


Which does not preclude someone from being assisted by a manager with regards to checking out people, negotiating deals, being an escort, or what have you.  The only requirement is that the person creating a profile must be the person represented by the profile -- there is nothing that prevents that person from getting help.


ForeverFotos wrote:
They are only perceived to be needed if the model is completely immature and :

...  unable to make the proper decisions to stay safe,
...  unable to remember her own appointments by using a calendar,
...  unable to negotiate her own fair deals,
...  unable to make sure she arrives prepared & on time,
...  unable to take responsibility for her own training and practice,
...  unable to make sure she gets appropriate rest,
...  unable to provide her own transportation,
...  etc.

So, does this mean that MM should welcome only adult & experienced models?  We have no room here for beginner models who want to give modeling a try to see if they like it?  If so, that's sad.

Again, Model Mayhem's Mission Statement:  Connect, create, inspire, indulge - we aim to bring the modeling community together.  When did we prohibit the beginners?  And if there are no beginners allowed on the site, there will be fewer TF* models, yes?


ForeverFotos wrote:
I have no desire to work with "models" who have never learned to be an adult and need to rely on a "manager".

I can see that.  I can support that.  But who says that your way is the only way permitted on MM? 


ForeverFotos wrote:
I will make exceptions for the under 18 model, who is usually managed and escorted by her parents. I have never had a problem with that type of arrangement.

Again, you can do whatever you wish.  But the issue here is what is and is not to be permitted for everyone on MM?

Mar 23 13 02:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rieni Otten
Posts: 193
Auxerre, Bourgogne, France


JOEL McDONALD wrote:
Pretty girl. Great build. But all her port images were uploaded in 2009.

Avoid!

Mar 23 13 02:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,621
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
First off, managers are not "illegal" on MM.  From the "Membership Requirements":

   You Must Be You
   We do not allow profiles to be set up or managed by people other than the profile owner. Passwords and login information should always be kept private.

Please note the emphasis on the phrase "managed by" in your quotation of the rules. That includes behind the scenes management of the model by a "manager". Let me re-phrase my statement here, model managers are against the model mayhem terms of service agreement.


ForeverFotos wrote:
They are only perceived to be needed if the model is completely immature and :

...  unable to make the proper decisions to stay safe,
...  unable to remember her own appointments by using a calendar,
...  unable to negotiate her own fair deals,
...  unable to make sure she arrives prepared & on time,
...  unable to take responsibility for her own training and practice,
...  unable to make sure she gets appropriate rest,
...  unable to provide her own transportation,
...  etc.
Looknsee Photography wrote:
So, does this mean that MM should welcome only adult & experienced models?  We have no room here for beginner models who want to give modeling a try to see if they like it?  If so, that's sad.

Again, Model Mayhem's Mission Statement:  Connect, create, inspire, indulge - we aim to bring the modeling community together.  When did we prohibit the beginners?  And if there are no beginners allowed on the site, there will be fewer TF* models, yes?

No, I, just like most other members of this site welcome new models. I am personally a member of "The List", a photographer group dedicated to helping new models in building their ports. Our group has also been vetted by senior membership of this site as being both professional and model safe. Our group also holds weekly contests to introduce new models through new portfolio work. See: https://secure.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=503930

There is a second group that is similar in purpose to help new models. They are dedicated "Mentors for New Models". Take a look at the thread: http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=342128

These are senior, experienced models on MM who have volunteered their time and knowledge to assist new models. Why do you think models need a "manager" when both of these groups are available to help them without charging them a dime?


ForeverFotos wrote:
I have no desire to work with "models" who have never learned to be an adult and need to rely on a "manager".
Looknsee Photography wrote:
I can see that.  I can support that.  But who says that your way is the only way permitted on MM?

Please re-check model mayhem's Terms of Service Agreement, which you quoted above. 

The only function actually performed by "managers" on this site is to try to insert themselves between models and photographers for the sake of making a few dollars from them or to fulfill some perverse sense of being a "big daddy" to new models.

Mar 23 13 02:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,580
Salinas, California, US


Patchouli Nyx wrote:
manager == sluggo/boyfriend

This is actually a very good thread and comment too! 

I do hope that Joel CAM'd the profile!  I sure would have! 

It's nearly a "status" thing.  Some models want a manager, but they don't need a manager.  Unless it's someone with a modeling career who is making enough money to justify the need for a manager to deal with busy schedule, I see no need for one. 

Why do I turn my nose up at models who have "managers?"

(1)  Models with "managers" are more likely to flake.
   
(2)  Models may have higher pay rates because of splitting the money with their "manager."

(3)  An assistant can do anything a model needs help with, but a manager tends to create drama. 

(4)  Communication is more likely to get lost or misinterpreted due to going through a third party.

That's enough reasons for me.

Mar 23 13 09:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DarrylPascoePhotography
Posts: 471
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


ForeverFotos wrote:
Please note the emphasis on the phrase "managed by" in your quotation of the rules. That includes behind the scenes management of the model by a "manager". Let me re-phrase my statement here, model managers are against the model mayhem terms of service agreement.

Not that I agree with the whole manager thing, I tend to agree that its probably just a controlling boyfriend most often etc. However you bolded only part of the statement to twist it to make a point.....you missed the part about it being the profile that cannot be in anyone elses control other then the owner of that profile.

You Must Be You
   We do not allow profiles to be set up or managed by people other than the profile owner. Passwords and login information should always be kept private.


All this is saying is that the model him or herself has to be the one using the profile and in control of it. That's all. Says nothing about a model who has a manager managing any other areas of her modelling being allowed to be on this site. It just cant be the manager using her profile or corresponding using it on behalf of her. basically as long as she's the only one that uses her profile she can have 10 managers for everything else as far as model mayhem is concerned. You are incorrect about a site claiming control of anything behind the scenes, it's just a site.

Mar 23 13 10:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photosbydmp
Posts: 3,808
Shepparton-Mooroopna, Victoria, Australia


Jay Farrell wrote:
My response would be something like....All offers I made have been withdrawn....have fun with your sluggo and your stooge escort, next llama please!

1.

Mar 23 13 10:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,621
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


DarrylPascoePhotography wrote:
Not that I agree with the whole manager thing, I tend to agree that its probably just a controlling boyfriend most often etc. However you bolded only part of the statement to twist it to make a point.....you missed the part about it being the profile that cannot be in anyone elses control other then the owner of that profile.

You Must Be You
   We do not allow profiles to be set up or managed by people other than the profile owner. Passwords and login information should always be kept private.


All this is saying is that the model him or herself has to be the one using the profile and in control of it. That's all. Says nothing about a model who has a manager managing any other areas of her modelling being allowed to be on this site. It just cant be the manager using her profile or corresponding using it on behalf of her. basically as long as she's the only one that uses her profile she can have 10 managers for everything else as far as model mayhem is concerned. You are incorrect about a site claiming control of anything behind the scenes, it's just a site.

Try re-reading all of the rules, not just the part quoted previously.....

Here's an excerpt from the membership requirements section:

"General Requirements

-----snip-------

Must Be In A Member Category
Your profile must clearly fit into one of the member categories listed upon sign up.

Here are a few profile types that we are not currently allowing:

    Agencies/managers/recruiters/bookers/scouts/promoters"


Please reference the entire document at: http://secure.modelmayhem.com/help/rule … quirements

Mar 23 13 10:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
EdwardKristopher
Posts: 3,375
Tempe, Arizona, US


Marin Photography wrote:
The manager is usually daddy or the boyfriend!...I would pass on any profile like that.

+1

Mar 23 13 10:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DarrylPascoePhotography
Posts: 471
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


ForeverFotos wrote:
Try re-reading all of the rules, not just the part quoted previously.....

Here's an excerpt from the membership requirements section:

"General Requirements

-----snip-------

Must Be In A Member Category
Your profile must clearly fit into one of the member categories listed upon sign up.

Here are a few profile types that we are not currently allowing:

    Agencies/managers/recruiters/bookers/scouts/promoters"


Please reference the entire document at: http://secure.modelmayhem.com/help/rule … quirements

Try re-reading all of the original post, it said nothing about the manager having a profile, it said the model had a manager and stated that fact in her profile.

Mar 23 13 10:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,621
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


DarrylPascoePhotography wrote:
------ snip ------

All this is saying is that the model him or herself has to be the one using the profile and in control of it. That's all. Says nothing about a model who has a manager managing any other areas of her modelling being allowed to be on this site. It just cant be the manager using her profile or corresponding using it on behalf of her. basically as long as she's the only one that uses her profile she can have 10 managers for everything else as far as model mayhem is concerned. You are incorrect about a site claiming control of anything behind the scenes, it's just a site.
DarrylPascoePhotography wrote:
Try re-reading all of the original post, it said nothing about the manager having a profile, it said the model had a manager and stated that fact in her profile.

My answer to you was not in regard to the OP, it was referencing the bolded part of your above post.

Mar 23 13 10:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DarrylPascoePhotography
Posts: 471
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


ForeverFotos wrote:
My answer to you was not in regard to the OP, it was referencing the bolded part of your above post.
DarrylPascoePhotography wrote:
Says nothing about a model who has a manager managing any other areas of her modelling being allowed to be on this site. .

You have misread the statement you refer to...

a model......... who has a manager managing any other areas of her modelling.......... being allowed to be on this site. A model who has a manager is allowed to be on this site. Nothing wrong with what is written. You read it as the manager being allowed, though I suppose comma's would have helped you read it better.

Mar 23 13 10:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,178
Portland, Oregon, US


ForeverFotos wrote:
Please note the emphasis on the phrase "managed by" in your quotation of the rules. That includes behind the scenes management of the llama by a "manager". Let me re-phrase my statement here, model managers are against the llama mayhem terms of service agreement.
Looknsee Photography wrote:
So, does this mean that MM should welcome only adult
Mar 24 13 08:49 am  Link  Quote 
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