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Photographer
irphotovision
Posts: 34
Covina, California, US


Just purchase a new nikon D800, i checked the shutter count and it showed a count of 160, is that to many for a new camera?
Mar 26 13 10:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,304
Salem, Oregon, US


i'd worry if it were a couple thousand but 160 doesn't sound all that bad. maybe they do some test fires at the factory? and then maybe a couple guys tried it in the store?

so far i've never broken a shutter and i've done a lot of shoots. but if it's something that could impact resale value then that's a concern.
Mar 26 13 10:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Steven Bodo
Posts: 453
Seattle, Washington, US


irphotovision wrote:
Just purchase a new nikon D800, i checked the shutter count and it showed a count of 160, is that to many for a new camera?

Contact Nikon customer service and ask them.

Mar 26 13 10:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
-The Dave-
Posts: 8,615
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


When I got my D800, I took a test shot then checked and it said 1
Mar 26 13 10:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
irphotovision
Posts: 34
Covina, California, US


I know 160 is a small number but i paid for a new camera not a demo that other people played with.
Mar 26 13 10:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Raoul Isidro Images
Posts: 6,084
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Your camera has been used and should NOT be passed on as a new unit.

Demand a replacement from the store. (or a discounted used price with the difference in amount credited to you)

It's not about the "newness" or shutter count.

It's about the principle of ethical behaviour and honesty of business practice.

The consumer have the rights to be sold a new product when the vendor says they are selling a new product.

Even if it says shutter count "1", someone used the thing before you did.

Consult/report this matter to a consumer protection group in your area if the store gives you a hard time replacing it.

http://www.dca.ca.gov/

.
Mar 26 13 11:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L A U B E N H E I M E R
Posts: 8,482
Seattle, Washington, US


new is new. 

you wouldn't pay full price for a partially eaten cheeseburger would you?
Mar 27 13 04:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Had one like this just recently - it went off-track quite quickly with comparisons to cars being test-driven etc.

IMO - If it's a mail-order camera, there is no reason for the shutter count to be anything other than '0' - the myth that factories test every single camera coming off the production line is just that: a myth. they test a sample every now and again.

If the camera has come from a dealer, then they may have used it as a shop-demo model, in which case, I'd regard it as a 'demo' model and thus qualifying for a discount.

If I buy 'new' I expect 'new' and untouched by human hand (factory workers wear gloves)...
Mar 27 13 04:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bob Helm Photography
Posts: 18,159
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US


New means not previously owned.
Demo is a piece used for general demonstration to customers. That may vary somewhat with where you buy it. A big store will have a model on display for the life of a model. Small store may have one boxed to sell and take it out as needed to show to customers.

With the small markup in cameras the only way anyone will discount a demo is if it was on display for a long time and has signs of wear. Small stores have enough of a problem competing with the Best Buys and the internet to discount a camera because someone clicked the shutter. New does not mean a virgin untouched by human hands outside the factory.

One time I had a customer who wanted a new model with limited availability that we did not have on display. He wanted to see it so we unboxed one and after looking at it...just looking, he decided he wanted it and wanted another one that had never been out of the box! Fortunately we had ONE more in stock.

Look at it from the positive POV you know it works and was not DOA for as someone pointed out they may not test every camera. I had more than one case where the new boxed model was DOA and the customer got the display which we knew worked and was glad to get it.
Mar 27 13 06:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


RennsportPhotography wrote:
New means not previously owned.
Demo is a piece used for general demonstration to customers. That may vary somewhat with where you buy it. A big store will have a model on display for the life of a model. Small store may have one boxed to sell and take it out as needed to show to customers.

With the small markup in cameras the only way anyone will discount a demo is if it was on display for a long time and has signs of wear. Small stores have enough of a problem competing with the Best Buys and the internet to discount a camera because someone clicked the shutter. New does not mean a virgin untouched by human hands outside the factory.

One time I had a customer who wanted a new model with limited availability that we did not have on display. He wanted to see it so we unboxed one and after looking at it...just looking, he decided he wanted it and wanted another one that had never been out of the box! Fortunately we had ONE more in stock.

Look at it from the positive POV you know it works and was not DOA for as someone pointed out they may not test every camera. I had more than one case where the new boxed model was DOA and the customer got the display which we knew worked and was glad to get it.

I understand a retailer's reasoning for doing this - but that's hardly the customer's problem is it?
You mentioned right there that a customer - after looking at a camera demanded another one in an unopened box - if there was no issue why not insist that he took the one he was originally shown? I'll tell you why - because the Customer Is Always Right - we have the option to go elsewhere if the service isn't what we demand.

OP - you're obviously bothered by it enough to start a post asking about it - maybe return it and demand a refund if it bothers you that much...?

Mar 27 13 06:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


Any count above 0 technically means it is used.  Depends on how much of a deal it is to you personally.
Mar 27 13 06:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
pullins photography
Posts: 5,877
Troy, Michigan, US


irphotovision wrote:
Just purchase a new nikon D800, i checked the shutter count and it showed a count of 160, is that to many for a new camera?

Nikon says there is no way to count shutter actuations. How are you getting that bit of info?

Mar 27 13 06:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
pullins photography
Posts: 5,877
Troy, Michigan, US


Steven Bodo wrote:

Contact Nikon customer service and ask them.

I have contacted Nikon customer service about that "shutter actuations" and they have told me, there is no way to know what that is. They do not have software which keeps track of such things

Mar 27 13 06:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,052
New York, New York, US


Will Snizek wrote:
Any count above 0 technically means it is used.  Depends on how much of a deal it is to you personally.

Exactly! It obviously bothers you. Take it back to the store. I would. New means "not used".  Zero count is new!

Mar 27 13 06:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bob Helm Photography
Posts: 18,159
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US


RKD Photographic wrote:

I understand a retailer's reasoning for doing this - but that's hardly the customer's problem is it?
You mentioned right there that a customer - after looking at a camera demanded another one in an unopened box - if there was no issue why not insist that he took the one he was originally shown? I'll tell you why - because the Customer Is Always Right - we have the option to go elsewhere if the service isn't what we demand.

OP - you're obviously bothered by it enough to start a post asking about it - maybe return it and demand a refund if it bothers you that much...?

No, the customer is not always right but they are the customer.

Why pick a fight over something insignificant if you do not have to. We had another so we did what he wanted. That was 30 years ago but I remember it clearly because it was so unusual, If we didn't have another I would have told him it was my only one and he could either take that one or I would order another from our wharehouse or another store along with an estimate of how long that would take and then let him decide. He could of course choose to go elsewhere and face the same limited availability. At the time we had six good competitors with five miles and a ten minute drive. Now there are none and the nearest good camera stores (and there are only three IMO in the Phila area) are a 45 min drive from each other. It is about choices and that applies to both the customer and the retailer.

Back then you did not have EXIF data to check shutter counts and usually you never used the supplied batteries to demo a camera as someday it would have to be sold.

Mar 27 13 06:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,490
Houston, Texas, US


ontherocks wrote:
i'd worry if it were a couple thousand but 160 doesn't sound all that bad. maybe they do some test fires at the factory?

This is true for guns and cars, but not cameras.

Mar 27 13 06:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


pullins photography wrote:
I have contacted Nikon customer service about that "shutter actuations" and they have told me, there is no way to know what that is. They do not have software which keeps track of such things

Of course there is - look in the full EXIF info in an editing program such as Photoshop - it's right there.

For this shot of my coffee-mug, I look in the RAW Data panel under 'file info', scroll down and I can see that whereas this is frame number RK_9396, the 'raw' image number (shutter-count) is actually 60174.

aux:ImageNumber>60174

Mar 27 13 06:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carl Blum Photography
Posts: 544
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


I bought a new camera back in '05 had a 6 count on it. I saw the box come directly to the camera store, and opened it along with the salesclerk, Direct from the manufacturer. I asked... WTF?
He told me in plain english. "Quality Assurance"
I was happy with that answer.
Since, I have purchased, I dunno maybe 6 more cameras with Counts ranging from 1 to 83, No big deal.....
Mar 27 13 07:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Bots
Posts: 5,626
Kingston, Ontario, Canada


Doesn't affect the warranty.  That's time based.

No big deal. Should last well past 100,000 anyway.
Mar 27 13 07:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Steven Bodo
Posts: 453
Seattle, Washington, US


pullins photography wrote:

I have contacted Nikon customer service about that "shutter actuations" and they have told me, there is no way to know what that is. They do not have software which keeps track of such things

Does it mean that Nikon doesn't know if 160 clicks in a "new" camera is normal or not. That sounds like a terrible answer you got from them.

Mar 27 13 09:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Steven Bodo
Posts: 453
Seattle, Washington, US


Michael Bots wrote:
Doesn't affect the warranty.  That's time based.

No big deal. Should last well past 100,000 anyway.

For me it's not about the shutter life. Of course 160 is nothing compared to 100,000.
One reason why it matters is the principle as someone mentioned earlier. They charge you for a new camera, you should receive a new one.
Two, you never know what happens when they "just look at it". They take it out of the box, they may drop it that will cause an internal problem even if there is no scratch on the outside. They remove the cap from the body, some debris may fall in.  A big hair or chunk of plastic may sit behind the mirror for a few days and start making problems once you bought the camera. Just headache for you when it shouldn't be.
New should be new.

Mar 27 13 09:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photoshutter
Posts: 257
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Just return it back to seller, new must be 0 count, this is a open box camera or maybe demo.
Mar 27 13 09:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gulag
Posts: 1,232
Duluth, Georgia, US


pullins photography wrote:

Nikon says there is no way to count shutter actuations. How are you getting that bit of info?

this site:
Just tell those Monkeys at Nikon check out its shutter count here:

http://www.myshuttercount.com/

Mar 27 13 09:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
irphotovision
Posts: 34
Covina, California, US


Its just that i could have purchased a demo unit for $600 less.
Mar 27 13 10:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
pullins photography
Posts: 5,877
Troy, Michigan, US


RKD Photographic wrote:

Of course there is - look in the full EXIF info in an editing program such as Photoshop - it's right there.

For this shot of my coffee-mug, I look in the RAW Data panel under 'file info', scroll down and I can see that whereas this is frame number RK_9396, the 'raw' image number (shutter-count) is actually 60174.

aux:ImageNumber>60174
Mar 27 13 10:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
pullins photography
Posts: 5,877
Troy, Michigan, US


Steven Bodo wrote:

Does it mean that Nikon doesn't know if 160 clicks in a "new" camera is normal or not. That sounds like a terrible answer you got from them.

If a manufacturer says "Sorry, we do not have software in out cameras that tell us how many times the shutter has been fired," then how can they say that his count of 160 is valid?

Mar 27 13 10:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brian Scanlon
Posts: 789
Encino, California, US


Steven Bodo wrote:

For me it's not about the shutter life. Of course 160 is nothing compared to 100,000.
One reason why it matters is the principle as someone mentioned earlier. They charge you for a new camera, you should receive a new one.
Two, you never know what happens when they "just look at it". They take it out of the box, they may drop it that will cause an internal problem even if there is no scratch on the outside. They remove the cap from the body, some debris may fall in.  A big hair or chunk of plastic may sit behind the mirror for a few days and start making problems once you bought the camera. Just headache for you when it shouldn't be.
New should be new.

When is the last time that you bought a new car and the odometer read zero.

Mar 27 13 10:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Brian Scanlon wrote:
When is the last time that you bought a new car and the odometer read zero.

...and here we go with the car analogies again - cameras are not cars...

Cars do not come in small boxes, they have to be driven from factory to car-transporter, from car-transporter to long-term storage, back onto the transporter and finally to the showroom. Often you will get up to 15 miles delivery mileage on a car - we accept that.

Cameras, do not have to be hand-carried with someone's finger on the shutter-button from the factory to the dealer.
The only acceptable shutter count for a NEW camera is '0'...

Mar 27 13 11:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


Brian Scanlon wrote:

When is the last time that you bought a new car and the odometer read zero.

The last new car I bought had 300 miles on it and I had them knock off more of the price because of it.  If you pay for something in this country, you get exactly what you want or you can go somewhere else because there's always going to be someone else more willing to please you.  I like new things and if I feel something has been used enough to make it not new, I don't pay new prices.  It's all about what you personally care about and nearly every business transaction is negotiable if you know how to negotiate.

This goes for everything in life too.  That's why I don't buy new video games at GameStop, because the employees get to take a game home with them at night, put it back in the package the next day and still sell it as new.

Mar 27 13 11:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,529
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


pullins photography wrote:

If a manufacturer says "Sorry, we do not have software in out cameras that tell us how many times the shutter has been fired," then how can they say that his count of 160 is valid?

put a brand new card in your camera.  take a shot. read the filename.  if it says DSC00160 then its at least that.  it may be that plus a full rollover or two but it is at least 160.  Nikon's answer might be technically correct (im betting it isnt after looking at some exif) but it is disingenuous to say the OP cant tell its not new.

Mar 27 13 11:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


pullins photography wrote:
Nikon says there's no such thing as a way to count shutter actuations. Why should I believe otherwise?

Because I just proved it to you. Duh!

Nikon didn't tell you - someone at Nikon told you - someone who either doesn't know you can, or does know but can't be bothered to find out the name of the software.

Mar 27 13 11:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,452
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


pullins photography wrote:

I have contacted Nikon customer service about that "shutter actuations" and they have told me, there is no way to know what that is. They do not have software which keeps track of such things

Nikon is CTA. There is no way to be sure you have an accurate count. But with Nikon EXIF data will give a very close approximation. But close, not necessarily exact. Canon, forget about it.

Just went through a search of info for a friend.

Mar 27 13 11:49 am  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
GRMACK
Posts: 1,774
Bakersfield, California, US


I believe one NYC shop allows for returns up to a count of 200.  What they probably do is repackage and sell them again as new - if they check them out at all.  Returning them to Nikon for a fix costs them money and down time to sell it off so most dealers will let the customer fight for a warranty to save the dealer some pocket cash (I know this because I worked in such a store at one time.).  They should sell them as used or re-boxed although many don't.

Most likely someone used yours and didn't like it for some reason and returned it.  I'd guess it was probably for the left-right auto-focus error which was/is the big issue with that model.  You might want to check that out, maybe use something like FoCal software to verify it isn't a big issue with yours.  However, FoCal takes a lot of actuations in running it so that could be an issue itself.

If it does exhibit that left-right error, I'd return it quickly for another since Nikon Service seems pretty inept at fixing that issue with any degree of certainty or accuracy.  Bad part is with a count that high, you may hit 200 (if it is the NYC store I'm thinking of) and then you are stuck with it and dealing with Nikon - and good luck with that!
Mar 27 13 11:49 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 35,152
San Francisco, California, US


pullins photography wrote:
I have contacted Nikon customer service about that "shutter actuations" and they have told me, there is no way to know what that is. They do not have software which keeps track of such things
Herman Surkis wrote:
Nikon is CTA. There is no way to be sure you have an accurate count. But with Nikon EXIF data will give a very close approximation. But close, not necessarily exact. Canon, forget about it.

Just went through a search of info for a friend.

You are both right.  It is possible to view the EXIF data to see what the count is on the current run, but there is no way to know what the actual count for the camera is.  Quite specifically, if the main board is ever replaced or the counter reset, Nikon has no way of knowing the actual count. 

I have a Nikon D70 with over 335,000 actuations on it.  The camera was totally rebuilt by Nikon and the counter reset.  The counter shows less than 25,000 actuations.  I believe that is what Nikon is saying.  They can tell you what the mainboard reports, they can't tell you how many actuations are actually on the camera.


It is no different than having speedometer replaced in your car.  When they do, they install a new odometer which is set to zero miles.

Mar 27 13 11:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


GPS Studio Services wrote:

pullins photography wrote:
I have contacted Nikon customer service about that "shutter actuations" and they have told me, there is no way to know what that is. They do not have software which keeps track of such things

You are both right.  It is possible to view the EXIF data to see what the count is on the current run, but there is no way to know what the actual count for the camera is.  Quite specifically, if the main board is ever replaced or the counter reset, Nikon has no way of knowing the actual count. 

I have a Nikon D70 with over 335,000 actuations on it.  The camera was totally rebuilt by Nikon and the counter reset.  The counter shows less than 25,000 actuations.  I believe that is what Nikon is saying.  They can tell you what the mainboard reports, they can't tell you how many actuations are actually on the camera.

What's the likelihood that a counter reset has been performed on a 'new' camera though?

Maybe on a used camera you take these things with a pinch of salt unless you know the seller, but on an out-of-the-box item? Hardly likely is it?

And it doesn't address the OPs issue - if the counter had been reset it would read '0'...

Mar 27 13 11:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,529
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


RKD Photographic wrote:

What's the likelihood that a counter reset has been performed on a 'new' camera though?

Maybe on a used camera you take these things with a pinch of salt unless you know the seller, but on an out-of-the-box item? Hardly likely is it?

And it doesn't address the OPs issue - if the counter had been reset it would read '0'...

it does address the NIkon response which was "there is no way to...:"

Mar 27 13 12:01 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 35,152
San Francisco, California, US


RKD Photographic wrote:
What's the likelihood that a counter reset has been performed on a 'new' camera though?

Maybe on a used camera you take these things with a pinch of salt unless you know the seller, but on an out-of-the-box item? Hardly likely is it?

And it doesn't address the OPs issue - if the counter had been reset it would read '0'...

I agree with you, the camera probably does have 160 actuations on it.  To me, it is a big yawn.  I have gotten a total of nine brand new DSLR bodies over the years. They were from Canon, Nikon and Olympus.  The shutter counts came in as low as zero (on just one camera) to as high as about 400 on another.  All the cameras were new though, right out of the sealed box.

To me, this is much adieux about nothing.  I can't tell you for sure, but I suspect, at least in some cases, it is just a question of whether QC resets the counter after they test the camera. 

As to the OP, the dealer could have opened the box and showed the camera to some customers, or not.   The OP hasn't told us if the original box was still sealed.

Mar 27 13 12:02 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 35,152
San Francisco, California, US


irphotovision wrote:
Its just that i could have purchased a demo unit for $600 less.

Actually, I probably would have bought the demo myself.  That sounds like a good deal.

Mar 27 13 12:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Raoul Isidro Images
Posts: 6,084
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Another situation:

If you have a brand new camera with "0" shutter count and put in a used memory card with images still in it, and the last one ending at "0159"...

When you first click the camera, the reading would be "0160".

Always load a newly formatted memory card on a brand new camera. (or format the card in the new camera first before taking the very first picture)

.
Mar 27 13 02:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Raoul Isidro Images
Posts: 6,084
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Also:

A camera could have 1659 shutter count and the store could just press a button to reset that at "0" again...

That can be done many, many times...

.
Mar 27 13 04:03 pm  Link  Quote 
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