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Photographer
Francisco Castro
Posts: 1,649
Cincinnati, Ohio, US


Models! Please do not be surprised if I refuse to work with you again after I prematurely ended a shoot with you before, because your escort got in the way of the shoot.

You can plead your case that, "It's not [your] fault!", because it is. You chose to bring the escort, you picked who the escort was going to be, and you allowed him to interfere with the shoot after I specifically told you he was interfering.

Remember, you are responsible for your escort's actions. Everything they do, is also on you.

End of rant.
Mar 28 13 10:46 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 3,776
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Good to know
Mar 28 13 10:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


I understand why an amateur would bring an escort in this day and age of Internet safety, but the practice of having escorts (particularly boyfriends, etc.) is not a professional action for adult models.  It's not tolerated by the most serious photographers. I allow escorts currently, but I will probably be changing that in the future.
Mar 28 13 10:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Francisco Castro wrote:
You chose to bring the escort

And YOU chose to allow one.

Don't blame the model for what was basically your mistake.





Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Mar 28 13 10:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 17,911
Orlando, Florida, US


Francisco Castro wrote:
Models! Please do not be surprised if I refuse to work with you again after I prematurely ended a shoot with you before, because your http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/88-90_Ford_Escort_Wagon.jpg/120px-88-90_Ford_Escort_Wagon.jpg got in the way of the shoot.

You can plead your case that, "It's not [your] fault!", because it is. You chose to bring the http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/88-90_Ford_Escort_Wagon.jpg/120px-88-90_Ford_Escort_Wagon.jpg, you picked who the http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/88-90_Ford_Escort_Wagon.jpg/120px-88-90_Ford_Escort_Wagon.jpg was going to be, and you allowed him to interfere with the shoot after I specifically told you he was interfering.

Remember, you are responsible for your http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/88-90_Ford_Escort_Wagon.jpg/120px-88-90_Ford_Escort_Wagon.jpg's actions. Everything they do, is also on you.

End of rant.

Why don't you message the model this directly instead of posting a thread. We are not the model in question so telling us  does absolutely nothing.

Mar 28 13 11:09 am  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,489
Los Angeles, California, US


I still know super experienced and super pro photographers that allow escorts. Though they don't tend to be active on MM.

But while I'm not much for escort or rant threads, I think this IS important--if you decide to bring someone with you, they are then your liability. Even if you personally do nothing wrong, if they mess up it's on you. So, if you're a model and you decide you need someone with you at shoots, choose very wisely.
Mar 28 13 11:10 am  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
veypurr
Posts: 214
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Francisco Castro wrote:
Models! Please do not be surprised if I refuse to work with you again after I prematurely ended a shoot with you before, because your escort got in the way of the shoot.

You can plead your case that, "It's not [your] fault!", because it is. You chose to bring the escort, you picked who the escort was going to be, and you allowed him to interfere with the shoot after I specifically told you he was interfering.

Remember, you are responsible for your escort's actions. Everything they do, is also on you.

End of rant.

How did the escort interfere? How do escort's usually interfere? I am preparing to hire a string of models and some of these prospective models have mentioned bringing escort's. Should I take on a policy of no escort's?

Mar 28 13 11:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SitronStudio
Posts: 1,056
Venice, Florida, US


I rarely have a model tell me they're bringing an escort, they often just show up with one. It's usually just a friend who came along for the ride, and I usually put them to work. Never really had a problem with one. I did cancel a shoot when the model informed me they'd be arriving with their "manager" and "assistant". This was someone with only cell pics.
Mar 28 13 11:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 26,745
Dearborn, Michigan, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
I still know super experienced and super pro photographers that allow escorts. Though they don't tend to be active on MM.

But while I'm not much for escort or rant threads, I think this IS important--if you decide to bring someone with you, they are then your liability. Even if you personally do nothing wrong, if they mess up it's on you. So, if you're a model and you decide you need someone with you at shoots, choose very wisely.

If a model needs someone with her then I don't need the model.  Fortunately I have not had this problem.

Mar 28 13 11:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,177
Salem, Oregon, US


i was asked for a recommendation and highly recommended a model to another photographer. he wound up ending the shoot after 15 minutes because her escort got  on his nerves (whereas i found the guy very helpful).

i've never had a major problem with escorts (pretty much anything goes with us) but i'm aware that others have. we've had a few boyfriends where we were a little unsure but in one case they hadn't had any sleep and were just tired. and there are possible strategic reasons for not allowing escorts.

generally i find the more experienced models don't have escorts.

anyway, think you make a good point. the model should be careful about her choice of escort when working with photographers who allow them. it probably only takes one bad experience and that photographer won't allow them any more.
Mar 28 13 11:18 am  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,489
Los Angeles, California, US


Jerry Nemeth wrote:

If a model needs someone with her then I don't need the model.  Fortunately I have not had this problem.

While that may be the case, and while it may not be popular in MM forums, here are plenty of models that require escorts, and plenty of photographers that allow them.

Remember, though, that much of the advice we give about escorts and how checking reference and such is the better way to stay safe applies mostly to those with at least SOME experience.

Many inexperienced photographers allow escorts, and it's not just because they are inexperienced-- some of them understand that there is no way to check their references, because they haven't really worked with models yet. There is no way to see their full body of work. Not saying I'm advocating escorts, just giving a different point of view that doesn't apply to pretty much anyone who is a frequent forum poster.

Mar 28 13 11:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,177
Salem, Oregon, US


we've done maybe 75 model shoots and we still allow escorts. for the most part i've found them helpful and we just haven't had any major problems. we've had mom and son babysit our studio while we were out shooting daughter nearby. we work with a lot of more casual models and their family probably hears all the negative things about internet modeling on the news.

as for being a frequent forum poster i think i need an intervention on that. lol.

i've seen advice that not allowing escorts will get you a more reliable model who is more likely to show up. but as you mentioned at the beginning when we're unknown it's not like we get to call the shots and more experienced models may not be available unless you pay them.

and we've had some very experienced models (100+ shoots) show up with an escort. so it's only partly true that experienced photographers and models don't allow/use escorts.

K I C K H A M wrote:
Not saying I'm advocating escorts, just giving a different point of view that doesn't apply to pretty much anyone who is a frequent forum poster.

Mar 28 13 11:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eros Fine Art Photo
Posts: 2,558
Torrance, California, US


Francisco Castro wrote:
Models! Please do not be surprised if I refuse to work with you again after I prematurely ended a shoot with you before, because your escort got in the way of the shoot.

You can plead your case that, "It's not [your] fault!", because it is. You chose to bring the escort, you picked who the escort was going to be, and you allowed him to interfere with the shoot after I specifically told you he was interfering.

Remember, you are responsible for your escort's actions. Everything they do, is also on you.

End of rant.

I'll make sure to inform CNN, MSNBC and FOX News to ensure no one misses out on this highly riveting breaking news. 

Quick!  someone get me the president!

Mar 28 13 11:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl JW Johnston
Posts: 9,313
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


fail
Mar 28 13 11:27 am  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,489
Los Angeles, California, US


veypurr wrote:

How did the escort interfere? How do escort's usually interfere? I am preparing to hire a string of models and some of these prospective models have mentioned bringing escort's. Should I take on a policy of no escort's?

Your policy is your choice.

Most models want to bring escorts because of one or many of the following reasons:
*They are new and inexperienced.
*They cannot check references on the photographer, because the photographer is also new and inexperienced, but perhaps the same model would do a shoot without an escort were it with someone she could check up on.
*They feel that modeling is unsafe, but having someone with them will make them safer.

Reasons why many photographers don't allow escorts:
*They have had equipment broken by escorts.
*They have had equipment stolen by escorts.
*They have had issues keeping the model's attention, because the model was too pre-occupied worried about the escort (what they're doing, what they'll think, etc.)
*They don't like the idea that they are seen as a threat or unsafe, and would prefer to work with someone that has a level of trust.
*They have been threatened or physically assaulted by escorts.
*If the escort is there to protect the model, who is there to protect ME?

I remember setting up a shoot a while back with a model, as a photographer. She wanted to bring an escort. Her "manager" (I believe boyfriend). 6'2' 180 lbs dude. To protect her. I am a female, 5'8 and 115 lbs. That made me uncomfortable and I declined the shoot, feeling that I would have at very least been uncomfortable and unable to properly focus.

Mar 28 13 11:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 26,745
Dearborn, Michigan, US


K I C K H A M wrote:

While that may be the case, and while it may not be popular in MM forums, here are plenty of models that require escorts, and plenty of photographers that allow them.

Remember, though, that much of the advice we give about escorts and how checking reference and such is the better way to stay safe applies mostly to those with at least SOME experience.

Many inexperienced photographers allow escorts, and it's not just because they are inexperienced-- some of them understand that there is no way to check their references, because they haven't really worked with models yet. There is no way to see their full body of work. Not saying I'm advocating escorts, just giving a different point of view that doesn't apply to pretty much anyone who is a frequent forum poster.

I understand what you are saying.  I don't need any possible problems  I just want to have a good shoot.  If other photographer want to risk having an escort it's their problem.  I have been fortunate to work with great problem free models.   smile

Mar 28 13 11:28 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,433
San Francisco, California, US


I allow escorts.  Sometimes it works out fine, sometimes it does not.  When it goes south, I just write it off and move onto the next model.

I understand all the reasons why photographers don't want them.  Generally it isn't a problem, but when it is, it can be a real problem.  On the other hand, there are a lt of models that I want to work with.  I don't want to be forced to pass because there is a chance there will be a problem.

So, I just don't worry about it.  When it goes bad, it goes bad.  On balance, I regret it far less often than I do.
Mar 28 13 11:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 26,745
Dearborn, Michigan, US


GPS Studio Services wrote:
I allow llama herders.  Sometimes it works out fine, sometimes it does not.  When it goes south, I just write it off and move onto the next model.

I understand all the reasons why photographers don't want them.  Generally it isn't a problem, but when it is, it can be a real problem.  On the other hand, there are a lt of models that I want to work with.  I don't want to be forced to pass because there is a chance there will be a problem.

So, I just don't worry about it.  When it goes bad, it goes bad.  On balance, I regret it far less often than I do.

You need a constant flow of models more than I do.  It is no problem for me to pass.  So far I have not needed to pass.

Mar 28 13 11:39 am  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
veypurr
Posts: 214
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


K I C K H A M wrote:

Your policy is your choice.

Most models want to bring escorts because of one or many of the following reasons:
*They are new and inexperienced.
*They cannot check references on the photographer, because the photographer is also new and inexperienced, but perhaps the same model would do a shoot without an escort were it with someone she could check up on.
*They feel that modeling is unsafe, but having someone with them will make them safer.

Reasons why many photographers don't allow escorts:
*They have had equipment broken by escorts.
*They have had equipment stolen by escorts.
*They have had issues keeping the model's attention, because the model was too pre-occupied worried about the escort (what they're doing, what they'll think, etc.)
*They don't like the idea that they are seen as a threat or unsafe, and would prefer to work with someone that has a level of trust.
*They have been threatened or physically assaulted by escorts.
*If the escort is there to protect the model, who is there to protect ME?

I remember setting up a shoot a while back with a model, as a photographer. She wanted to bring an escort. Her "manager" (I believe boyfriend). 6'2' 180 lbs dude. To protect her. I am a female, 5'8 and 115 lbs. That made me uncomfortable and I declined the shoot, feeling that I would have at very least been uncomfortable and unable to properly focus.

I agree with you not being able to focus. A model I shot recently brought her grandmother who did not physically interfere ( and spoke almost no english) but did give me dirty looks the entire time and it was distracting. Also I felt the model made sure that she did not do anything (too sexy) as to not offend her grandmother.

Mar 28 13 11:39 am  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
veypurr
Posts: 214
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


GPS Studio Services wrote:
I allow escorts.  Sometimes it works out fine, sometimes it does not.  When it goes south, I just write it off and move onto the next model.

I understand all the reasons why photographers don't want them.  Generally it isn't a problem, but when it is, it can be a real problem.  On the other hand, there are a lt of models that I want to work with.  I don't want to be forced to pass because there is a chance there will be a problem.

So, I just don't worry about it.  When it goes bad, it goes bad.  On balance, I regret it far less often than I do.

How are the common ways that it goes south?

Mar 28 13 11:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
37photog
Posts: 692
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


OP, I dunno. I see your point.  I probably wouldn't want to shoot with her again either.  Oh the other hand I take it she did reach out to you and ask to shoot again, so imho it depends how she worder it.  If it was very matter of fact, when do you want to reschedule, then I would blow it off.   But if she was apologetic & sorry they wasted your time & she would come again without said guy, then I would think about it.

I had a girl flake on me a couple months ago.  She was from outta state & had another 3 hour gig earlier that day but wanted more to piggyback with it, and I was also a paying gig.  So sure enough I get a call, she's tired, had a long shoot, and thinks she'll be back in town a few months later. Whatever, I just said ok bye.  Sure enough I get a message a few weeks later about "Hey, let's reschedule this when I'm back in town so I can officially put you on my books" or something??   WTF, was my previously scheduled paying gig not officially on her books??!  I just blew it off and never wrote back.
Mar 28 13 12:52 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 21,516
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


NOTICE: Escorts must remain in the waiting room until the shoot is completed

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/tdgossett/42-18350115.jpg

Studio36
Mar 28 13 01:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,706
Vineland, New Jersey, US


Mar 28 13 01:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The Signature Image
Posts: 12,055
Gorham, Maine, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:

And YOU chose to allow one.

Don't blame the model for what was basically your mistake.





Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

I recently shot a young lady who is 17. I asked her to bring a member of her family or a female friend to the shoot -- specifically not a BF. She brought her dad along and because of her age I am fine with that.

I think for future posts and OPs the term "escort" should be replaced with the word "bodyguard."

Excepting underage models I do not, will not and will stick needles in my eyes before I work with a bodyguard.

Mar 28 13 01:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,429
Salinas, California, US


OH PLEASE!   NOT ANOTHER llama herder THREAD!!!!!!!!

In my World, there is no such thing as an "llama herder!"

Always it is an "invited guest" or an "uninvited guest!"

Photographers and models need to discuss this among themselves. 
Don't bring someone to a shoot without asking first.
Communication is key to success! 

If you are so lazy that you don't check out references, talk on the phone or do any number of things to help you overcome your fear of other people, then you should not force yourself to shoot models OR pose as a model.  Find another hobby.  Get real!

Now if you wish to invite a guest because that person will help with make up, hair, lighting, carrying gear for the photographer and/or model, or just be there giving you a boost of confidence, THEN we can discuss that person(s) being there. 

I've shot with models who prefer that I be the only other person in the room, and I've shot with models who are fired up by an audience.  I'm great either way as I have no problem with concentration, and I enjoy directing people.  I manage my shoots.

I resolved the "llama herder" issue long ago.
Mar 28 13 02:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,429
Salinas, California, US


Karl Johnston wrote:
fail

People fail.  People fail to communicate properly before a photo shoot because they think that the other person should know and trust them based on exchanging a few emails or text messages.  People fail because they are afraid to speak to other people on the phone, or to actually meet someone at a coffee shop before committing to a shoot.  I do everything I can to build trust.  I rarely have any problems with uninvited guests or models flaking on me.

How did people survive before the Internet?

Mar 28 13 02:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,429
Salinas, California, US


The Signature Image wrote:
I recently shot a young lady who is 17. I asked her to bring a member of her family or a female friend to the shoot -- specifically not a BF. She brought her dad along and because of her age I am fine with that.

I think for future posts and OPs the term "escort" should be replaced with the word "bodyguard."

Excepting underage models I do not, will not and will stick needles in my eyes before I work with a bodyguard.

In the past, I've shot with MANY teenagers!   Some accompanied with a chaperone, and some by themselves.  In 30 years time ... never had a problem.

Mar 28 13 02:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,966
Chicago, Illinois, US


veypurr wrote:

How are the common ways that it goes south?

I could do a book on how but I'll start with a few examples.   I had a shoot where a model brought her man and assorted pals.   Things were going fine until said man jumped out of his car to announce his girls dress was too see through.   I stopped the shoot.   Another time a model brought her ex. there was tension between them and her mood soured as the shoot went on.   Models who have brought girlfriends have been a pain as well.   Take it from me.   Have them dropped off and picked up later.   You'll avoid some hassles, thefts and other bs that way.   I did a group shoot in Texas at South Padre Is.   Three models who each brought a friend and one brought three.   We looked like a circus as we drove around.

Mar 28 13 03:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,267
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Yet another llama herder thread... Yawn.
Mar 28 13 03:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 35,966
Columbus, Ohio, US


ontherocks wrote:
as for being a frequent forum poster i think i need an intervention on that.

+100
Yes, you should

Mar 28 13 03:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Park Avenue Pin-ups
Posts: 400
Waverly, New York, US


An escort is very handy if you're making a human centipede, saves you the work of finding one of the 3 people you need.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/human_centipede/
Mar 28 13 03:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herb Way
Posts: 1,472
Princeton, New Jersey, US


When I was a child (back when parents really did some parenting), my mother often warned that I would be judged by the company I kept. If an escort is an a-hole, it definitely says something about the model.
Mar 28 13 07:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Edward
Posts: 2,462
Dallas, Texas, US


You guys kill me.

Like.

Put the Escort in the other room.

What do when he goes outside, and the neighbors see him trying to peek in the window?

It's happend.

Next.

Send her home.

What do you do when the escort gets in your face, and demand she gets paid for the whole session?

That's what escorts do, screw it up, then make demands.

Or, if for whatever reason, you'd just send the model home.

Some guy get's in your face, and demands, she gets paid, for failing to do the job.

So.

Basically, you just set yourself up, for a democratic vote, and you are going to get outvoted, 2 to 1.

What she does, what she wears, how she poses, and well, Everything. They also vote, that no matter what your agenda, or what you get to, or were trying to shoot, They Decide, what she is going to get paid.

Or my all time best escort horror story.

I showed up at a high class hotel next to a park, and the models BF, decided to do "Donuts," with his truck, on the hotels groomed, sodded, backyard, while they were waiting.

Second place, goes to the Escort, who showed up a week later, saying the Dallas Police Department was going to call me, and please tell them he was supposed to have three pages out of the middle of my checkbook, from my office.

Third place goes to the escort, who "Had To Go To The Bathroom," every three minutes, so he could walk by the living room where I was shooting.

Unless it's your hot sister, your Milf Mom, or your bi curious roommate. I'll pass.

Your mileage may vary.
Mar 28 13 09:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotticelli
Posts: 11,988
Lorton, Virginia, US


Francisco Castro wrote:
Models! Please do not be surprised if I refuse to work with you again after I prematurely ended a shoot with you before, because your escort got in the way of the shoot.

Are you going to be surprised that they don't want to work with you again because they didn't like the pictures from the first shoot?

Mar 28 13 09:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Francisco Castro
Posts: 1,649
Cincinnati, Ohio, US


Fotticelli wrote:

Are you going to be surprised that they don't want to work with you again because they didn't like the pictures from the first shoot?

I won't when it happens eventually. No photographer is 100% on the ball 100% of the time.

To quote Anchorman, "60% of the time, it works every time."

The point of this post is not to rail against escorts, to make it clear that models are responsible for the people they chose to bring. Their guests are their responsibility.

Apr 01 13 12:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


Francisco Castro wrote:

I won't when it happens eventually. No photographer is 100% on the ball 100% of the time.

To quote Anchorman, "60% of the time, it works every time."

The point of this post is not to rail against escorts, to make it clear that models are responsible for the people they chose to bring. Their guests are their responsibility.

An escort is 100% the model's responsibility.  I allow them in some cases, but if you run into someone who brings a boyfriend/escort to every shoot they do, you gotta realize you aren't dealing with someone who acts professional or like the responsible type.  Even amateurs should act responsibly, but you can't expect it these days I think.  All you can really do is put your gear back in your car and go home.

Apr 01 13 12:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,363
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
I still know super experienced and super pro photographers that allow escorts. Though they don't tend to be active on MM.

That doesn't mean that they aren't the exception rather than the rule. Most of the "super experienced" and "super-pro" shooters that I know do not allow them...and I don't know any models that use them, whether they are active on MM or not.

Apr 01 13 12:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,363
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


SitronStudio wrote:
I rarely have a model tell me they're bringing an escort, they often just show up with one. It's usually just a friend who came along for the ride, and I usually put them to work. Never really had a problem with one.

Escorts aren't usually a problem until you have a bad experience with one. When your favorite lens "walks away" during an escorted shoot, or the escort threatens you for posing their girlfriend too provocatively, you might re-think your escort policy.

And using them as free labor is a great idea, until one of them accidentally knocks over your favorite light stand, or stumbles and shatters his/her kneecap. 

SitronStudio wrote:
I did cancel a shoot when the model informed me they'd be arriving with their "manager" and "assistant". This was someone with only cell pics.

That's usually the type of model that insists on escorts.

Apr 01 13 12:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sophistocles
Posts: 21,320
Seattle, Washington, US


You might find you have better results if you hire a professional escort.

Sluggo Model Management Escort Service
Apr 01 13 12:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The F-Stop
Posts: 1,423
New York, New York, US


waiting room.. sit in the car.. send em out ofr coffee n lug your all your shit around n they leave pronto.

You ahve to tell em to stay off the set n if not then end the shoot.
Apr 01 13 03:31 pm  Link  Quote 
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