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Model
Kora Alexandra Wilkes
Posts: 3
Lee's Summit, Missouri, US


Hello, I'm a fairly new model and I would like some advice. I have done several TFP shoots for portfolio building purposes and I have also done two paid shoots. Well, last night I got a message asking if I'd want to do another TFP shoot. However, this shoot is 2 hours from my home and they want me to work for four hours. It sounds like a fun shoot, but to me that sounds like a lot to expect out of me for something I won't get paid for. So, my question is, should I ask for payment for this, if so what's a good rate, and how do I go about asking that appropriately? He did say he'd pay 30$ for gas, but come on.. 30$ for a two hour drive? Not to mention getting back home. I feel like I'll be taking a loss (money wise) if I accept this as just a TFP. So what are your thoughts?
Mar 29 13 07:55 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2,014
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


For me, I base my decision to do TF work on the photographers port. When I look at their port, do I see any photos that I wish I was the model in, that I'd like to see in my port? If yes I do it, if not, I ask for pay or decline their offer to shoot TF.

It sounds like you have already decided that the photographers port is not strong enough to do this as TF.

$30 for gas would almost fill my tank. If I was offered $30 for gas, from a photographer with a strong port, I would find that fair. Money for gas is not the same as money for your time.
Mar 29 13 08:06 am  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,630
Los Angeles, California, US


Will the images improve your portfolio?

The answer to this question really depends on what the shoot is worth to you.

For good images, a 2 hour drive isn't that bad-- even if you WERE footing the cost of gas. It's definitely worth it if you're not.

For potentially beneficial images, I'd say the drive is still worth it. And the $30 is to cover your gas-- not your driving time. It might not be enough for my car (I drive a 1990 camaro), but for most it should be plenty.


For images you don't think will benefit you, I'd say that you aren't interested in trade with that amount of travel right now.
If he asks your rates, I'd do a flat rate that included travel. 4 hours is a half day, and since you have limited experience, I'd *personally* in your shoes charge something like $75-$100 including travel.
Mar 29 13 08:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,444
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


Personally, I think it's kind of tacky to request pay when offered TF.   If you feel the travel makes a TF shoot not worth your while, I'd just politely say exactly that.  If the photographer is willing to pay, he may come back at you with a paid offer.

Only you can decide what the value of the images is from a TF shoot and whether or not those images are worth your travel and time.
Mar 29 13 08:16 am  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,630
Los Angeles, California, US


Abbitt Photography wrote:
Personally, I think it's kind of tacky to request pay when offered TF.   If you feel the travel makes a TF shoot not worth your while, I'd just politely say exactly that.  If the photographer is willing to pay, he may come back at you with a paid offer.

Only you can decide what the value of the images is from a TF shoot and whether or not those images are worth your travel and time.

Agreed on this.

And my above post doesn't make that very clear, so I'm going to edit it now.

Mar 29 13 08:18 am  Link  Quote 
Model
FallenEcho
Posts: 1,177
Escondido, California, US


If you feel the photographers work won't benefit your portfolio by all means send him your rates, just don't expect him to accept it.

Actually $30 is quite fair for traveling costs.
Mar 29 13 08:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
sospix
Posts: 21,270
Orlando, Florida, US


Yep, as stated above, you just need to decide if the shoot will gain you usable images in a style you'd like to pursue  .  .  .  TF is supposed to be a barter like way for both parties to create images that benefit each of them, so it's not really like you're loosing money, you're just trading your time for theirs  .  .  .  now, how soon can ya drive to Florida, so we can do some shootin'  .  .  .  wink  Best of luck, hope things go well for you  .  .  .

SOS
Mar 29 13 08:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Imageography
Posts: 6,768
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada


Re-iteration I am sure, but the concept of TFP is to benefit both (or all) parties including MUA, Hair Stylist etc. Of course that is in a perfect world.

What I tell models, is that when you feel your port is of the quality where you do not need any more looks (after all your port is an advertisement for you), then you should start refusing TFP or at least limiting it based on whether it will fill a need for you or give you new images to further sharpen up your port.

I agree as well, the distance and all is worth it if you feel the images will benefit you, but if not, that is outside the realm of TFP and understandable not to at least ask for travel expenses (at least gas).

Again, the decision boils down to you. Like a pizza menu, if all the pizzas look yummy, you are ready to make a more logical decision on whether or not you need to add more pizza to the menu.

Of course I do not think models are really pizzas, that would be silly, but it's the best analogy I can come up with after just waking up.
Mar 29 13 08:34 am  Link  Quote 
Model
V for Victory Modeling
Posts: 436
Roseville, California, US


Kora Alexandra Wilkes wrote:
Hello, I'm a fairly new model and I would like some advice. I have done several TFP shoots for portfolio building purposes and I have also done two paid shoots. Well, last night I got a message asking if I'd want to do another TFP shoot. However, this shoot is 2 hours from my home and they want me to work for four hours. It sounds like a fun shoot, but to me that sounds like a lot to expect out of me for something I won't get paid for. So, my question is, should I ask for payment for this, if so what's a good rate, and how do I go about asking that appropriately? He did say he'd pay 30$ for gas, but come on.. 30$ for a two hour drive? Not to mention getting back home. I feel like I'll be taking a loss (money wise) if I accept this as just a TFP. So what are your thoughts?

It costs me about $30-$35 to my moms and back which is 2 1/2 hours each way. So basically, he's paying you nearly the exact amount of the gas you would use during the trip. That doesn't factor in your time and wear and tear on the vehicle. I would probably pass unless I happen to be in the area. It depends on how badly you want the shoot.

Mar 29 13 09:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Kora Alexandra Wilkes wrote:
I feel like I'll be taking a loss (money wise) if I accept this as just a TFP. So what are your thoughts?

If the images you're likely to receive are not worth the cost of obtaining them, then don't agree to the shoot.

If you don't want the images but would do the shoot for money then offer to send your rates.

If you're undecided then it's probably best not to bother.


Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Mar 29 13 09:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,331
Salem, Oregon, US


it's a negotiation. the current offer is $30 for the entire shoot. if it's not an acceptable offer you have 3 choices:

* say "no thanks"
* say nothing
* respond with a counter-offer of what you need to make it worth your while

only you can decide if it's worth it. i had a model and her mom drive 3.5 hours to shoot with us on trade but we did have one of the best MUAs onboard.

$30 is normally what i offer when i'm covering traveling costs. maybe it's just for gas but at least it's something.
Mar 29 13 10:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,674
Atlanta, Georgia, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
Will the images improve your portfolio?

The answer to this question really depends on what the shoot is worth to you.

For good images, a 2 hour drive isn't that bad-- even if you WERE footing the cost of gas. It's definitely worth it if you're not.

For potentially beneficial images, I'd say the drive is still worth it. And the $30 is to cover your gas-- not your driving time. It might not be enough for my car (I drive a 1990 camaro), but for most it should be plenty.


For images you don't think will benefit you, I'd say that you aren't interested in trade with that amount of travel right now.
If he asks your rates, I'd do a flat rate that included travel. 4 hours is a half day, and since you have limited experience, I'd *personally* in your shoes charge something like $75-$100 including travel.

Exactly right, myself I have spent hundreds just producing a single image for my portfolio and have some that we're next to nothing (it's never really free).  So what is it worth to you.

Mar 29 13 10:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jose M Granados
Posts: 8
Merced, California, US


Well look i say if you gonna do a two hour drive you should get paid atleast $80 but like every one said check his profile and see if thats what you wanna shoot.. If you like their work maybe its something to sacrifice..
Mar 29 13 10:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


While this is primarily a hobby for most people involved in the beginning, I think everything is a business decision.  If you need more quality images for your port and you like the photographer's style, that's a valuable benefit.  TF arrangements should be mutually beneficial.  If you personally feel like the photographer is getting the majority of the benefit, then payment could be in order.
Mar 29 13 10:40 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Sierra McKenzie
Posts: 710
Seattle, Washington, US


If you aren't super stoked for it don't do it.

Trade for things that you really need in your port. Charge for everything else.

Send an offer. If they say no, they say no. Move on to the next offer.
Mar 29 13 11:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


First off your 16 years old what are you doing takeing offers to do shoots without the concent of your parents. Also who would want to shoot a teen who lives such a long distance as you to the photographers location.  $30.00 or any amount at your age is not worth the trouble of what a Creep can do to you.

Dont do it.
Mar 29 13 11:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
Will the images improve your portfolio?

The answer to this question really depends on what the shoot is worth to you.

For good images, a 2 hour drive isn't that bad-- even if you WERE footing the cost of gas. It's definitely worth it if you're not.

For potentially beneficial images, I'd say the drive is still worth it. And the $30 is to cover your gas-- not your driving time. It might not be enough for my car (I drive a 1990 camaro), but for most it should be plenty.


For images you don't think will benefit you, I'd say that you aren't interested in trade with that amount of travel right now.
If he asks your rates, I'd do a flat rate that included travel. 4 hours is a half day, and since you have limited experience, I'd *personally* in your shoes charge something like $75-$100 including travel.

Are you aware this girl is only 16 years old. And is not even concern if her parents are involved in this shoot.

Mar 29 13 11:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mask Photo
Posts: 1,398
Fremont, California, US


Bravo Magic Images wrote:
Are you aware this girl is only 16 years old. And is not even concern if her parents are involved in this shoot.

QFT. OP, do NOT drive 2 hours to shoot with someone without your parents along. Who will sign the model release and/or usage license? you can't do it. If it's someone who doesn't use paperwork, i'd be even more cautious. You'll want someone there who's of legal age and responsible for you since these issues can be complex.

Mar 30 13 03:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gene Cannon
Posts: 84
Wendell, North Carolina, US


Usually, If I am doing a TF shoot with a model and she comes to my location then I will offer her a reasonable amount for fuel. It all depends on the photographer. If I am going to her location I do not ask for fuel expenses. The model must remember that the photographer has perhaps invested thousands of dollars in photography equipment which he does not recoup any monetary amount that he has invested.
Mar 30 13 03:46 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachel-Elise
Posts: 1,650
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
Will the images improve your portfolio?

The answer to this question really depends on what the shoot is worth to you.

For good images, a 2 hour drive isn't that bad-- even if you WERE footing the cost of gas. It's definitely worth it if you're not.

This. I've considered a $2500.00 plane ticket for awesome images with a photographer who has phenomenal connections.

Mar 30 13 04:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,102
New York, New York, US


Depends on the supply and demand. If you have lots of other offers with good photographers stay home. If you don't, then consider doing it for the experience depending on his portfolio. Also, if you do, bring a parent!
Mar 30 13 04:53 am  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,630
Los Angeles, California, US


Bravo Magic Images wrote:

Are you aware this girl is only 16 years old. And is not even concern if her parents are involved in this shoot.

Well, while I didn't notice that, her parents COULD be involved, we don't know either way.

But yes, OP, you should not go to a shoot alone. You should have a parent/ guardian present.

But aside from that, my advice still stands.

Mar 30 13 06:47 am  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,630
Los Angeles, California, US


Bravo Magic Images wrote:
First off your 16 years old what are you doing takeing offers to do shoots without the concent of your parents. Also who would want to shoot a teen who lives such a long distance as you to the photographers location.  $30.00 or any amount at your age is not worth the trouble of what a Creep can do to you.

Dont do it.

Where did you get this from?

How do you know she doesn't have her parents' consent?

And plenty of legitimate photographers shoot 16 year old models... That age makes up the majority of professional models, actually, and wanting to shoot one doesn't make a photographer a "creep." 2 hours is not that far. I have traveled 16 hours for the right shoot with someone I wanted to work with.

Mar 30 13 06:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 17,955
Albany, New York, US


Why not just explain the situation (maybe that you'd be interested in it as a TF* shoot) but the traveling 2 hours without travel compensation gives you pause?
Mar 30 13 07:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brian Scanlon
Posts: 789
Encino, California, US


Kora Alexandra Wilkes wrote:
Hello, I'm a fairly new llama and I would like some advice. I have done several TFP shoots for portfolio building purposes and I have also done two paid shoots. Well, last night I got a message asking if I'd want to do another TFP shoot. However, this shoot is 2 hours from my home and they want me to work for four hours. It sounds like a fun shoot, but to me that sounds like a lot to expect out of me for something I won't get paid for. So, my question is, should I ask for payment for this, if so what's a good rate, and how do I go about asking that appropriately? He did say he'd pay 30$ for gas, but come on.. 30$ for a two hour drive? Not to mention getting back home. I feel like I'll be taking a loss (money wise) if I accept this as just a TFP. So what are your thoughts?

You also have to consider what else you might be doing with your time.  Do you have other offers for TFP that are closer?  Do you have other paid work that you cold take?  Would this preclude you from engaging in some other activity that you really want to do?  Basically do you have anything better to do?  You may do it to just to keep shooting.  It is said that you don't become any good at anything until you have been at it for a couple thousand hours.

Mar 30 13 11:34 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,243
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Kora Alexandra Wilkes wrote:
Hello, I'm a fairly new model and I would like some advice. I have done several TFP shoots for portfolio building purposes and I have also done two paid shoots. Well, last night I got a message asking if I'd want to do another TFP shoot. However, this shoot is 2 hours from my home and they want me to work for four hours. It sounds like a fun shoot, but to me that sounds like a lot to expect out of me for something I won't get paid for. So, my question is, should I ask for payment for this, if so what's a good rate, and how do I go about asking that appropriately? He did say he'd pay 30$ for gas, but come on.. 30$ for a two hour drive? Not to mention getting back home. I feel like I'll be taking a loss (money wise) if I accept this as just a TFP. So what are your thoughts?

It's only too much to be expected to do without payment (money) if you're not getting any payoff from the images either.

If the photos are worth it, shoot TF
If the photos are not worth it, ask for payment

Many of us have traveled hours and hours out of state, worked for hours and hours, and done all sorts of ridiculous things for a good photo that will enhance our portfolios, and not once thought "I ought to be getting paid to do this"

You won't get anywhere asking for money if you don't have a strong portfolio.

Mar 30 13 12:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Harold Rose
Posts: 2,925
Calhoun, Georgia, US


Kora Alexandra Wilkes wrote:
Hello, I'm a fairly new model and I would like some advice. I have done several TFP shoots for portfolio building purposes and I have also done two paid shoots. Well, last night I got a message asking if I'd want to do another TFP shoot. However, this shoot is 2 hours from my home and they want me to work for four hours. It sounds like a fun shoot, but to me that sounds like a lot to expect out of me for something I won't get paid for. So, my question is, should I ask for payment for this, if so what's a good rate, and how do I go about asking that appropriately? He did say he'd pay 30$ for gas, but come on.. 30$ for a two hour drive? Not to mention getting back home. I feel like I'll be taking a loss (money wise) if I accept this as just a TFP. So what are your thoughts?

It is your judgment call!    Is it worth it.. if not say so...  A simple yes or no  should tell the story.;.

Mar 30 13 12:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Heather LeStabbityDeath
Posts: 22,608
Des Moines, Iowa, US


Bravo Magic Images wrote:
First off your 16 years old what are you doing takeing offers to do shoots without the concent of your parents. Also who would want to shoot a teen who lives such a long distance as you to the photographers location.  $30.00 or any amount at your age is not worth the trouble of what a Creep can do to you.

Dont do it.

Most commercial and fashion models are under 18.  If the photographer in question is shooting portraits, fashion, commercial, or lifestyle photos, shooting a 16 year old is perfectly normal.   
Now go put your suit of armor away and brush out your white horse, kthanks.

Mar 30 13 12:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 4,018
Los Angeles, California, US


TF is as important as paid (for me). TF is an investment that leads to money by giving me images that I can sell myself with.

Of course, this is under the assumption the TF shoot will give significantly stronger images than what is currently had.

So if the TF shoot is worth it, do it. If you don't feel it's worth it, skip out on it.

If you can't afford the gas but still want to do the TF shoot, mention it to the photographer and see if you can't get a tenner or something tossed your way to help cover costs. Maybe try booking a paid shoot in the same area instead of asking the TF photographer if you are worried about offending them, etc.

Lot of different things you can do... smile

Edit: I've driven over 12+ hours round trip and flown to a totally different state on top of that for TFP, so IMO, no distance is too far...! Just depends on the person and circumstances smile
Mar 30 13 03:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dark Shadows
Posts: 2,269
Miami, Florida, US


Good images would easily be worth a 2 hour drive or more (I think nearly every full-time model would agree with this).

If his portfolio is good, do the shoot. If his portfolio is mediocre or below that, say no.

Easy decision, I would think.
Mar 30 13 07:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,864
Olivet, Michigan, US


Kora Alexandra Wilkes wrote:
Hello, I'm a fairly new model and I would like some advice. I have done several TFP shoots for portfolio building purposes and I have also done two paid shoots. Well, last night I got a message asking if I'd want to do another TFP shoot. However, this shoot is 2 hours from my home and they want me to work for four hours. It sounds like a fun shoot, but to me that sounds like a lot to expect out of me for something I won't get paid for. So, my question is, should I ask for payment for this, if so what's a good rate, and how do I go about asking that appropriately? He did say he'd pay 30$ for gas, but come on.. 30$ for a two hour drive? Not to mention getting back home. I feel like I'll be taking a loss (money wise) if I accept this as just a TFP. So what are your thoughts?

I've had several models travel about four hours one way for a trade shoot with me, two hours is normal.  Some come farther.  The farthest I've gone for a trade shoot is 1700 miles round trip.  It depends on what the benefits are, and whether you can afford it.

Apr 01 13 08:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JOEL McDONALD
Posts: 608
Portland, Oregon, US


I will offer $30-40 for gas for a TF shoot I want if the model is traveling more than 100 miles one way. I consider it just a matter of fairness.
Apr 02 13 06:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Heather LeStabbityDeath
Posts: 22,608
Des Moines, Iowa, US


I frequently travel to Minneapolis and Kansas City to shoot, as my work schedule allows, which are 3-4 hours each way, and I can't always book paid shoots at the same time as my trade shoots, but I'm pretty cool with that.
Apr 02 13 09:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DarrylPascoePhotography
Posts: 471
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Kora Alexandra Wilkes wrote:
Hello, I'm a fairly new llama and I would like some advice. I have done several TFP shoots for portfolio building purposes and I have also done two paid shoots. Well, last night I got a message asking if I'd want to do another TFP shoot. However, this shoot is 2 hours from my home and they want me to work for four hours. It sounds like a fun shoot, but to me that sounds like a lot to expect out of me for something I won't get paid for. So, my question is, should I ask for payment for this, if so what's a good rate, and how do I go about asking that appropriately? He did say he'd pay 30$ for gas, but come on.. 30$ for a two hour drive? Not to mention getting back home. I feel like I'll be taking a loss (money wise) if I accept this as just a TFP. So what are your thoughts?

Ive had llamas that travelled that kind of distance and spent all day with me much less 4 hours at payment of images. That being said they felt as though the shoot was worth that time. If you really want to do the shoot and its something that will benefit you despite it being TF do it for the images, if you feel as though its not worth it to you...then ask for the fee that makes it worth your time and see if they are willing to pay it. A good rate is one someone is willing to pay no matter how high or low it is.

Apr 02 13 10:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15,406
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


The op should ask herself ' what makes a good model '. And 'what skills do I have '.

The op needs to prove herself before she can ask for any pay.
Apr 03 13 05:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 34,386
San Diego, California, US


Kora Alexandra Wilkes wrote:
So, my question is, should I ask for payment for this, if so what's a good rate, and how do I go about asking that appropriately? He did say he'd pay 30$ for gas, but come on.. 30$ for a two hour drive? Not to mention getting back home. I feel like I'll be taking a loss (money wise) if I accept this as just a TFP. So what are your thoughts?

It depends on how famous he is as a photographer and how important his photos are to you.

You are trading a full work day of your time, plus travel expenses, less $30 for those photos.

Anything you decide is perfectly fine, fair and justifiable.


"Opportunity Cost" is defined as the cost of not using your time and money to do something else that is a better use of your resources.


I never charge models for my time. I am always TFP. I do this for reasons that can not be measured by money. However, each day of my time is very precious, so there must be other valuable reasons why I use my time for photo shoots, preparation and editing. It's a trade off and I must use my time wisely or I will collapse my schedule with the wrong kind of work.

(So, I ask myself, why am I here now reading this forum and posting at 5:30am on a Wednesday morning?)

Apr 03 13 05:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Harold Rose
Posts: 2,925
Calhoun, Georgia, US


Kora Alexandra Wilkes wrote:
Hello, I'm a fairly new model and I would like some advice. I have done several TFP shoots for portfolio building purposes and I have also done two paid shoots. Well, last night I got a message asking if I'd want to do another TFP shoot. However, this shoot is 2 hours from my home and they want me to work for four hours. It sounds like a fun shoot, but to me that sounds like a lot to expect out of me for something I won't get paid for. So, my question is, should I ask for payment for this, if so what's a good rate, and how do I go about asking that appropriately? He did say he'd pay 30$ for gas, but come on.. 30$ for a two hour drive? Not to mention getting back home. I feel like I'll be taking a loss (money wise) if I accept this as just a TFP. So what are your thoughts?

I pick up on the fact that you are  16,  is this true....does the photographer know this.

Apr 03 13 05:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,864
Olivet, Michigan, US


Bravo Magic Images wrote:
First off your 16 years old what are you doing takeing offers to do shoots without the concent of your parents. Also who would want to shoot a teen who lives such a long distance as you to the photographers location.  $30.00 or any amount at your age is not worth the trouble of what a Creep can do to you.

Dont do it.

I shot an (almost) 16 year old who came about four hours one way to the shoot.  She brought her mother, or rather her mother brought her, and I wouldn't have dreamed of doing it otherwise.  Most of the planning was with the mother, and the whole shoot was very innocent, although I did do a swimsuit image:

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4006/5094924018_1c6f026fec_z.jpg

Apr 03 13 06:55 am  Link  Quote 
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