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first12
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:

That's an excellent point.

What would be going through the minds of NK troops as they see the prosperity and abundance in SK? Might they start to wonder how badly they've been lied to by Dear Leader?

Quite a few will be looking for a change of clothes I suspect.

Mar 31 13 01:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rfordphotos
Posts: 4,614
Antioch, California, US


You know, I think many folks are seriously underestimating NKorea's technology, and "war-making" capacity.

It is popular in the west to see NK and its leaders as almost cartoon like characters.

They are not. They are deadly serious.

Western propaganda would like to paint a picture of a backwards people- Nothing could be farther from the truth.

They have ~4th largest army in the world. Estimates are that they have nearly 1.25 million in their armed forces. Their weaponry ranges from WWII vintage to the most modern day Soviet and Chinese weapons. (A WWII handgun still works fine, no need for a new version.) They have over 4000 tanks. Yeah, we can kill their tanks, but we will have to kill 4000 of them.......

And, lets not forget... These cartoon characters have managed to cobble together working nuclear bombs. They may not be elegant, state of the art, high tech missile deliverable packages, but they still can kill millions....

In 1994 the Soviets sold NK 10 Golf class missile submarines, capable of launching Scud class ballistic missiles... making our coast line vulnerable... Diesel-electric subs are still very hard to detect.....

We have very poor actual "intelligence" regarding the attitudes of the NK people. We know they have faced severe hardship, some fairly widespread famine, the economy is in tatters.

But the society is closed. For 60 years the state has been the primary source of info. For 60 years, the west has been blamed for the hardships faced by the people. Generations of North Koreans have grown up "knowing" that the west is holding them back, starving them, that the State is the only thing preventing them from being made slaves to a foreign govt.

That deep an "education" would no doubt have a SERIOUS impact on the dedication of their armed forces.

And, if we have learned ANYTHING in the past few decades, our technology is NOT the deciding factor in modern warfare. We can be more efficient, we can kill more folks.  But decisive "victory" still comes down to one on one, face to face in the village.

We have been in Afghanistan for more than a decade. All the technology our nation could provide hasnt much changed that situation. A conventional ground war in N.Korea wouldnt be much different.

North Korea wouldnt be a push over. If China chose to back them like they did 60 years ago-- ??
Mar 31 13 02:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Body Painter
Eric Mayhem
Posts: 443
Seattle, Washington, US


Where can I get one of those giant hats like the officers wear?
Mar 31 13 02:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kyle T Edwards
Posts: 416
St Catharines, Ontario, Canada


Al Lock Photography wrote:
AOL are idiots. N. Korea has been in a "state of war" since 1950.

True, and I wouldn't be surprised that, without allied support on either side, North Korea could take South Korea.  However, South Korea has some strong allies, and North Korea, as others have mentioned, has a very pissed off China who wants them to back the hell down.  Going the distance with the Republic of Korea is one thing; lasting the first round against the People's Republic of China is another!

The truth is, China doesn't even have to exert their military might on the DPRK; all they have to do is cut off all trade and "suggest" that others not trade with them, either.  China is such a large global trading partner and DPRK is such a comparatively small one, that other countries in the area that are currently friendly with both would be forced to side with China, in order to maintain trade lines with China.  China will increase its regional trading power, it'll save money by not having to mobilize its military, and it'll increase its global reputation by resolving a military confrontation, peacefully.  Overall, this can work out quite well for the PRC!

Mar 31 13 02:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


North Korea has a very large military.  I know all about it.  I've been to Korea.  But the vast majority of their military is infantry.  A big infantry stopped being useful 60 years ago.  I'm sure they could do some damage, but who couldn't.  Most of what the media does with North Korea is common fear mongering.  It's just like people worried about Iran dropping an atomic bomb on New York City.  What are they going to do?  Deliver it on the back of a camel that knows how to swim?

Any war North Korea goes into on their own would be a very short war.  There are too many other countries who depend on economic stability in the region.  North Korea's regime would be taken out in months and North Korean's would be enjoying their Big Macs within a year.

The only time North Korea would be of concern to me is if they team up with another country like China or Russia.
Mar 31 13 02:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


I wouldn't compare it to being in Afghanistan either.  That's a war ruled by politics of just a couple countries.  We could have blown Al Qaeda off the face of the map in a period of several months had that been our politician's desire.  The Bush regime probably spread them out on purpose.
Mar 31 13 02:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rfordphotos
Posts: 4,614
Antioch, California, US


Will Snizek wrote:
[...]

Any war North Korea goes into on their own would be a very short war.  There are too many other countries who depend on economic stability in the region.  North Korea's regime would be taken out in months and North Korean's would be enjoying their Big Macs within a year.

The only time North Korea would be of concern to me is if they team up with another country like China or Russia.

Will, with all due respect, how many allies did Iraq have when the "coalition" went there in 2003? And---did the "coalition" prevail? Are they eating Big Macs there now?

And how well has the US done in changing the course in Afghanistan? Vietnam?

If we were talking about WWII style warfare, where you had a front, and captured land from your enemy...maybe you would be right.

But small nations like NK, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam etc know they cannot defeat the US led west in a conventional war... So you dont fight a war you know you cannot win...you fight a war you have a chance to win.

China has so far refused to take a very hard line with NK--China has its own agenda, and it is NOT well aligned with the agenda of the west.

As has been mentioned, it isnt just a matter of getting rid of the Kim dynasty, I have NO idea how far down in the NK leadership you might have to go to find someone open enough try and change the nation's mindset.

Mar 31 13 03:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 11,929
Maricopa, Arizona, US


rfordphotos wrote:
We have been in Afghanistan for more than a decade. All the technology our nation could provide hasnt much changed that situation. A conventional ground war in N.Korea wouldnt be much different.

You made some great points and then threw it all away with your comparison to 'stan which is a decentralized land of tribes. Nk is a super highly centralized joke. Take out Pyongyang's "dear" leader and a few generals and their military wouldn't know how to wipe their own asses if they had someone to help them do it. Well, that, and throw in some food for the people and you have a winner!

NK's greatest military strength is that they have thousands of super-hot chicks that can march with an Ak-47 and look **really** freaking **hot** while doing it. Other than that, Meh!

Mar 31 13 03:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


Nowadays they just go far down in line enough to find someone who can be bought kinda like Karzai in Afghanistan.  At the end of the day, lots of countries have tricks up their sleeves, but you can't really worry about it.  War will happen whenever there is a political, financial or religious reason to back it.  I worry far more about what our own government is doing to us than foreign powers.  With no support, North Korea's military is bulky but outdated.  You also have to keep in mind that the vast majority of their soldiers have full time civilian jobs.  These aren't battle hardened warriors by any means.

And fighting North Korea would be nothing like Vietnam or Afghanistan for sure.  North Korea is a much simpler situation than either.
Mar 31 13 03:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


rfordphotos wrote:

Will, with all due respect, how many allies did Iraq have when the "coalition" went there in 2003? And---did the "coalition" prevail? Are they eating Big Macs there now?

And how well has the US done in changing the course in Afghanistan? Vietnam?

If we were talking about WWII style warfare, where you had a front, and captured land from your enemy...maybe you would be right.

But small nations like NK, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam etc know they cannot defeat the US led west in a conventional war... So you dont fight a war you know you cannot win...you fight a war you have a chance to win.

China has so far refused to take a very hard line with NK--China has its own agenda, and it is NOT well aligned with the agenda of the west.

As has been mentioned, it isnt just a matter of getting rid of the Kim dynasty, I have NO idea how far down in the NK leadership you might have to go to find someone open enough try and change the nation's mindset.

I'm not honestly sure if they have Big Macs in Iraq yet or not....haven't been there in a decade but I do know they have a pretty good Hardee's in Kuwait.

Mar 31 13 03:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 11,929
Maricopa, Arizona, US


Will Snizek wrote:
Nowadays they just go far down in line enough to find someone who can be bought kinda like Karzai in Afghanistan.  At the end of the day, lots of countries have tricks up their sleeves, but you can't really worry about it.  War will happen whenever there is a political, financial or religious reason to back it.  I worry far more about what our own government is doing to us than foreign powers.  With no support, North Korea's military is bulky but outdated.  You also have to keep in mind that the vast majority of their soldiers have full time civilian jobs.  These aren't battle hardened warriors by any means.

And fighting North Korea would be nothing like Vietnam or Afghanistan for sure.  North Korea is a much simpler situation than either.

Chuckles. Yeah, but we do have to really worry about them thousands of super-hot Korean chicks that can march in formation with an Ak-47 and look **really** freaking **hot** doing it (how the hell do they get their legs so high). American libido and all that - could be a game changer lol

Mar 31 13 03:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


Lohkee wrote:

Chuckles. Yeah, but we do have to really worry about them thousands of super-hot Korean chicks that can march in formation with an Ak-47 and look **really** freaking **hot** doing it (how the hell do they get their legs so high). American libido and all that - could be a game changer lol

I agree.  The North Koreans would kick our asses big time in a marching competition.

Mar 31 13 03:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 11,929
Maricopa, Arizona, US


Will Snizek wrote:

I agree.  The North Koreans would kick our asses big time in a marching competition.

Yeppers.

Mar 31 13 03:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Broughton
Posts: 2,172
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


i say carpet bomb every major population center in north korea... with tiny, easily-concealed, hand-cranked radios.
Mar 31 13 04:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rfordphotos
Posts: 4,614
Antioch, California, US


Will Snizek wrote:
[...]North Korea is a much simpler situation than either.

What makes you say that?

Mar 31 13 04:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


rfordphotos wrote:
They have ~4th largest army in the world. Estimates are that they have nearly 1.25 million in their armed forces. Their weaponry ranges from WWII vintage to the most modern day Soviet and Chinese weapons. (A WWII handgun still works fine, no need for a new version.) They have over 4000 tanks. Yeah, we can kill their tanks, but we will have to kill 4000 of them.......

Same argument was used for Iraq in both Gulf wars.

The North Koreans will likely be good for one big offensive blow. And they'll be vulnerable to one hell of a counterstrike, both in the offensive formation and in the homeland.

And, lets not forget... These cartoon characters have managed to cobble together working nuclear bombs. They may not be elegant, state of the art, high tech missile deliverable packages, but they still can kill millions....

They have nuclear bombs that can be loaded onto tractor-trailer combos. Not a particularly effective offensive/preemptive weapons package.

In 1994 the Soviets sold NK 10 Golf class missile submarines, capable of launching Scud class ballistic missiles... making our coast line vulnerable... Diesel-electric subs are still very hard to detect.....

No way in hell will they make the west coast vulnerable. Diesel-electrics have a short range on electric and they're easily trackable when they're surfaced to charge batteries. Any subs approaching the west coast would be intercepted long before they get into Scud range. If they have any chance of effectiveness, it would be in suicide runs on American fleets in Asian waters.

North Korea wouldnt be a push over. If China chose to back them like they did 60 years ago-- ??

The world -- and especially China -- is very different from sixty years ago. The last thing China wants is a war on its porch, especially with Japan, SK and the US. Back North Korea? China's more likely to move in through the back door and stage a coup in Pyongyang to stabilize the peninsula.

Mar 31 13 05:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
tonyfromsyracuse
Posts: 374
Syracuse, New York, US


I never understood how such a small country as germany could cause so much destruction in the world.....occupying so many places,taking on 3 enemys and losing millions of soldiers in russia.germany seems so small.

it seems like the equivelent of if montana had an army and it started to invade other areas. how is that possible it was able to conquer so much?
Mar 31 13 06:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


tonyfromsyracuse wrote:
I never understood how such a small country as germany could cause so much destruction in the world.....occupying so many places,taking on 3 enemys and losing millions of soldiers in russia.germany seems so small.

it seems like the equivelent of if montana had an army and it started to invade other areas. how is that possible it was able to conquer so much?

Germany's not that small of a country and it's got a lot more population and industry than Montana.

Mar 31 13 06:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AdelaideJohn1967
Posts: 12,337
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia


Seniorbrucio wrote:
I imagine the Chinese arent too pleased.


Simply a fat man trying to flex his un-visible muscles.

Russia says it will back NK

Mar 31 13 06:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Seniorbrucio
Posts: 104
Dubai, Dubai, United Arab Emirates


rfordphotos wrote:
You know, I think many folks are seriously underestimating NKorea's technology, and "war-making" capacity.

It is popular in the west to see NK and its leaders as almost cartoon like characters.

They are not. They are deadly serious.

Western propaganda would like to paint a picture of a backwards people- Nothing could be farther from the truth.

They have ~4th largest army in the world. Estimates are that they have nearly 1.25 million in their armed forces. Their weaponry ranges from WWII vintage to the most modern day Soviet and Chinese weapons. (A WWII handgun still works fine, no need for a new version.) They have over 4000 tanks. Yeah, we can kill their tanks, but we will have to kill 4000 of them.......

And, lets not forget... These cartoon characters have managed to cobble together working nuclear bombs. They may not be elegant, state of the art, high tech missile deliverable packages, but they still can kill millions....

In 1994 the Soviets sold NK 10 Golf class missile submarines, capable of launching Scud class ballistic missiles... making our coast line vulnerable... Diesel-electric subs are still very hard to detect.....

We have very poor actual "intelligence" regarding the attitudes of the NK people. We know they have faced severe hardship, some fairly widespread famine, the economy is in tatters.

But the society is closed. For 60 years the state has been the primary source of info. For 60 years, the west has been blamed for the hardships faced by the people. Generations of North Koreans have grown up "knowing" that the west is holding them back, starving them, that the State is the only thing preventing them from being made slaves to a foreign govt.

That deep an "education" would no doubt have a SERIOUS impact on the dedication of their armed forces.

And, if we have learned ANYTHING in the past few decades, our technology is NOT the deciding factor in modern warfare. We can be more efficient, we can kill more folks.  But decisive "victory" still comes down to one on one, face to face in the village.

We have been in Afghanistan for more than a decade. All the technology our nation could provide hasnt much changed that situation. A conventional ground war in N.Korea wouldnt be much different.

North Korea wouldnt be a push over. If China chose to back them like they did 60 years ago-- ??

Japan is a better comparable than anything really. The Japanese learnt real quick that the war was now over.

NK on the other hand does have some limited strike back capability of the nuclear variety but they'd be desperate to get to that point because well US et al have a whole lot more.

Mar 31 13 08:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Seniorbrucio
Posts: 104
Dubai, Dubai, United Arab Emirates


AdelaideJohn1967 wrote:

Russia says it will back NK

Russia says a lot of things. Usually the opposite of what the US says.

They were also backing Syria no?

Mar 31 13 08:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 11,929
Maricopa, Arizona, US


Mar 31 13 08:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


AdelaideJohn1967 wrote:
Russia says it will back NK

China may have something to say about Russia backing a war on China's border.

Mar 31 13 08:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rieni Otten
Posts: 193
Auxerre, Bourgogne, France


Orca Bay Images wrote:

If they're scared to death of the leadership, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll fight to the death for Dear Leader. It could also mean that they'll surrender at the first opportunity. Especially if they catch the scent of food coming from behind the enemy lines.

Look at how bravely and tenaciously the Iraqis fought for Saddam in Desert Storm. Iraqi troops were surrendering to journalists.

True.

Apr 01 13 03:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AdelaideJohn1967
Posts: 12,337
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia


Orca Bay Images wrote:

China may have something to say about Russia backing a war on China's border.

That's a very good point. Then again as another poster pointed out Russia also is backing Syria.

Apr 01 13 05:49 am  Link  Quote 
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