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This thread was locked on 2013-04-01 09:17:49. Reason: Off-topic doesn't mean posters can act like a swarm of piranha.
Forums > Off-Topic Discussion > What has happened to Professionalism in MD Search   Reply
Photographer
Pictures That Pop
Posts: 3
Glen Burnie, Maryland, US


I've been shooting professionally for years (weddings, commercial, landscapes, architecture, etc).  Recently I decide to change direction and concentrate on portraits, glamor, and boudoir.

Living a suburb of Maryland I search for models willing to trade their time for my CDs of their images.  I was able to locate a few and contacted them.

Two have worked out nicely and there's another one I expect will also be great.

However, the majority of the models I've contact (including some who wanted payment) have no sense of professionalism.  They list themselves as Professionals and Very Experience, yet that can't use a calendar, can't tell time, and can ever engage in minimal communication skills via either phone, text, or email.

I just don't understated it.  I've contact models in Northern Virginia, Southern Pennsylvania, Washington, DC, Delaware, and Maryland.  About 2/3 of them fall into the above negative category. 

I just can't see how you can list yourself as very experience and Professional, yet can answer emails, tell time, or pick up a phone.

So far this has been very frustrating.  I know that has to be models in their areas willing to trade their time and my images, but where are they?''

Reb Orrell, III
Reb Orrell Photography
Apr 01 13 05:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
salvatori.
Posts: 3,709
State College, Pennsylvania, US


With all due respect, you have been on this site for just a few months and this is your first forum post.

Do you actually think that ranting about how bad models are is going to get them to work with you?

And IMHO, ranting about it is just as unprofessional as the behavior that you see as so rampant.

And a tip... rants belong on OT. Rant against models in the model forum is not a good idea.

Again, IMHO
Apr 01 13 05:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SME
Posts: 20,847
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Moderator Note!
Moving this to the Off Topic forum.
Apr 01 13 05:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 2,887
Royal Oak, Michigan, US


"So far this has been very frustrating.  I know that has to be models in their areas willing to trade their time and my images, but where are they?''

You assume that your offer is better than the 25+ trade offers that good models get every week from the 6000+ photographers in your area.  When you provide a great offer of publication, unique images, or $$$-your response rate will get better.
Apr 01 13 05:46 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


I like that professionalism has officially just become being willing to work with someone.
Apr 01 13 05:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,781
Olivet, Michigan, US


Damianne wrote:
I like that professionalism has officially just become being willing to work with someone.

Well, willing to work with HIM, for "a CD of images".  It's not necessarily professional to work with OTHER photographers.  Or, say, actual money.

Apr 01 13 06:05 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


Art of the nude wrote:

Well, willing to work with HIM, for "a CD of images".  It's not necessarily professional to work with OTHER photographers.  Or, say, of actual money.

Exactly.

Apr 01 13 06:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Caradoc
Posts: 19,509
Scottsdale, Arizona, US


Art of the nude wrote:

Well, willing to work with HIM, for "a CD of images".  It's not necessarily professional to work with OTHER photographers.  Or, say, actual money.

borat

Apr 01 13 06:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 17,857
Albany, New York, US


Amateurs on an amateur website expecting professional conduct. What did you REALLY expect was going to happen?
Apr 01 13 06:30 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Kithos
Posts: 359
York, Pennsylvania, US


I don't think it's one particular area or just certain models, but the industry as a whole that has changed. These days I am lucky to ever get a "no thank you I am unavailable" from photographers. Correspondences get replied to several months later and sometimes even years later. A lot has changed in the internet model industry since when I started in 2001. Newer models are more lazy and most wont even give the respect of using complete sentences. Photographers have adopted this attitude that models need the money bad enough to wait for them to decide when to get into contact. There is no common respect amongst professionals anymore because simply people dont care to be professionals. The industry is flooded with "photographers" who really want a stripper and "models" who just want to pay their bills. Neither party has any interest in learning their trade.
Apr 01 13 06:33 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Kithos
Posts: 359
York, Pennsylvania, US


Farenell Photography wrote:
Amateurs on an amateur website expecting professional conduct. What did you REALLY expect was going to happen?

Hahaha loving this comment!

Apr 01 13 06:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPRINGHEEL
Posts: 38,022
Gibraltar, Michigan, US


reborrell wrote:
yet that can't use a calendar

lol

Apr 01 13 06:34 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Robb Mann
Posts: 10,006
Baltimore, Maryland, US


Its much harder to find models willing to do TF in this market/economy than it was a few years ago. If you have an idea or a project that needs a model you might find someone thats excited to work with you; if you're looking for gals to stand nekid in front of seamless that will be a much harder sell as a TF idea.

I suggest networking, attending local M&G events, etc. We have one of the most supportive and collaborative mayhem communities in the country here, leverage that.

Oh, and don't publicly rant about how unprofessional local models in your area are -- they might not know how to use a calendar, but they can read. wink
Apr 01 13 08:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,206
Salem, Oregon, US


have you tried the casting section? i've done two castings. i got zero responses on one, but two on the second.

aside from paying traveling models, i generally just shoot with models who contact me or that i meet either through working with other photographers or buying my phone at costco or whatever.

if they aren't responding maybe you need to make the deal more compelling. money might be one way to do that.

you could also try CL and omp.

and if you get good enough to be one of the best in your area i imagine the models will start finding you.
Apr 01 13 08:47 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachel-Elise
Posts: 1,650
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Loki Studio wrote:
"So far this has been very frustrating.  I know that has to be llamas in their areas willing to trade their time and my images, but where are they?''

You assume that your offer is better than the 25  trade offers that good llamas get every week from the 6000  photographers in your area.  When you provide a great offer of publication, unique images, or $$$-your response rate will get better.

This.

Do you have any idea how many times a week I get offered to "form an ongoing 'muse' relationship"?????

I no longer care about being a MUSE. After working in this industry for 12 years, I feel that I deserve to be paid by these people. After all, most offering trade--or worse, the "muse relationship"--can't even provide images that would be of any value to my portfolio.

Search out the full-time llamas in your area. Offer them something that will be of value to THEM (usually money). Then you will have success.

Apr 01 13 08:51 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 15,621
New York, New York, US


Learning how to pick models for trade is as good as paying an agent to provide a model from an agency (if you even have to pay for a test).

Freelance models not signed with anyone can be as professional as any agency model.

With that said, learn how to weed out what you don't want.
Apr 01 13 08:51 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 15,621
New York, New York, US


Rachel-Elise  wrote:

This.

Do you have any idea how many times a week I get offered to "form an ongoing 'muse' relationship"?????

I no longer care about being a MUSE. After working in this industry for 12 years, I feel that I deserve to be paid by these people. After all, most offering trade--or worse, the "muse relationship"--can't even provide images that would be of any value to my portfolio.

Search out the full-time models in your area. Offer them something that will be of value to THEM (usually money). Then you will have success.

Muse to me was the magical element to all artistry.
Now it has become, 'model who doesn't have to worry about bills and is available to satiate your creative whim on a moment's notice.'

Oh that's right, I won't pay for your 4-dollar a gallon gas either.
Being an artist myself means I have to be a cheap bastard.

smile

Apr 01 13 08:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BYS
Posts: 11,614
Paris, Île-de-France, France


define professionalism
Apr 01 13 08:54 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 15,621
New York, New York, US


BYS wrote:
define professionalism

Does job exceedingly well
Gets paid for this excellence (look to definition above... One can be professional and not get paid)
On time
Experienced demeanor: conversation/appt./scheduling
No personal drama

Etc.

Definition is in any abridged or unabridged dictionary.

& internet

Apr 01 13 08:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Caradoc
Posts: 19,509
Scottsdale, Arizona, US


Rachel-Elise  wrote:
Do you have any idea how many times a week I get offered to "form an ongoing 'muse' relationship"?????

I don't even have any idea what that phrase is supposed to mean.

"Muse relationship?" Sounds like a pick-up line from someone who thinks that having opposable thumbs and a camera means that women should be lining up in front of him.

Apr 01 13 09:02 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 15,621
New York, New York, US


Caradoc wrote:

I don't even have any idea what that phrase is supposed to mean.

"Muse relationship?" Sounds like a pick-up line from someone who thinks that having opposable thumbs and a camera means that women should be lining up in front of him.

Lol

Maybe this for -0-

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=dBVqGsZH … BVqGsZHWAs

Apr 01 13 09:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,206
Salem, Oregon, US


yeah, what's with those guys? how can you choose a muse before you've even worked with them? it kind of requires that both people are really invested in the thing and get a lot out of it.

Caradoc wrote:
"Muse relationship?" Sounds like a pick-up line from someone who thinks that having opposable thumbs and a camera means that women should be lining up in front of him.

Apr 01 13 09:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BYS
Posts: 11,614
Paris, Île-de-France, France


Jules NYC wrote:

Does job exceedingly well
Gets paid for this excellence (look to definition above... One can be professional and not get paid)
On time
Experienced demeanor: conversation/appt./scheduling
No personal drama

Etc.

Definition is in any abridged or unabridged dictionary.

& internet

this

Apr 01 13 09:06 am  Link  Quote 
Model
NicoleNudes
Posts: 3,788
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Damianne wrote:
I like that professionalism has officially just become being willing to work with someone.

Mmmhmm

Apr 01 13 09:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,978
Chicago, Illinois, US


Kithos wrote:
I don't think it's one particular area or just certain models, but the industry as a whole that has changed. These days I am lucky to ever get a "no thank you I am unavailable" from photographers. Correspondences get replied to several months later and sometimes even years later. A lot has changed in the internet model industry since when I started in 2001. Newer models are more lazy and most wont even give the respect of using complete sentences. Photographers have adopted this attitude that models need the money bad enough to wait for them to decide when to get into contact. There is no common respect amongst professionals anymore because simply people dont care to be professionals. The industry is flooded with "photographers" who really want a stripper and "models" who just want to pay their bills. Neither party has any interest in learning their trade.

I find this strange.   Most of the photographers I know would love to work with a model like you.  Is this TF or paid?   My guess is they are thinking you're looking for payment and feel they can't afford you or they don't pay.   However if its for trade... no reply would be odd.   While some of the MM shooters are goofs I've found that as a rule we are years to decades older then the models and we tend to act in a more professional fashion.   One example is many of the expensive workshops offered for photographers are sold out.   Videos produced by members here are bought by photographers along with books and software and pricey gear.   There are shooters here who fly models in to shoot and travel to them as well.   They buy clothes and make-up and rent studio space and hire MUA.   I know I have.   In fact one only need look at sites like Craigslist to see how many photographers go begging for models and these aren't creepy dudes.

Apr 01 13 09:12 am  Link  Quote 
Model
NicoleNudes
Posts: 3,788
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Also, I would just like to put it out there that I message photographer to shoot trade, or if I really love their work and want to work with them - offer to pay them and I still don't get a response either.

However, I don't bitch and moan about it. I move on with my life and focus on the people who do response to my messages.
Apr 01 13 09:15 am  Link  Quote 
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