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1234last
Photographer
Incubus Portrait Studio
Posts: 15
Newport News, Virginia, US


Just had a few things to say and I wanted to create a small discussion about it. Unfortunately this kinda pertains to the VA and NC area. This will possibly have some regard to other areas too so please join the discussion.

This is more aimed at the huge amount of "models" in this area that are part of the modeling industry that not only don't shoot nudes but condemn other girls for doing so. First off anytime you come across a profile that has to specifically state that they "don't do anything pornographic" that is unfortunately a very subjective statement. What your idea is of something pornographic maybe completely different from another opinion.

But that's not the main reason I'm writing this. The multiple "models" websites I stumble upon are always so judgmental. "I respect my body", "I don't need to share my body with everyone", " I care about myself why would I shoot that way?" "I don't do shots like those girls in hustler" " I'm not a skank, like that" this isn't a quite but apparently 90% of these particular "models" are going to run for office in the next few years also.

This is not a bash on models that genuinely are not into shooting that way, that's totally fine but you may want to find another profession. Not to say you can’t make it without doing nudes and I don't think anyone should *have* to please understand that. But if you’re not comfortable with your body, modeling in high fashion or most any other genre may not be for you.

Societies in America are still very sexually repressed and actually in this area and areas like it are even worse. I'm fine with that, but don't down other people for their decisions. If shooting nude or implied, or anything else of the sort is not your cup of tea, that’s fine. But if it’s because you think your taking "the moral high ground" you’re poorly mistaken. If you think it’s just because the photographer just wants to see you naked than that's just sad. (Check your references before shooting always bring an escort, be comfortable, if you’re scared you won’t do well anyway.) If you think it’s because the photographer is going to do "naughty stuff" with your photos, please be honest with yourselves if you have ever taken a naked picture its somewhere you don't want it to be, unless you own it. Get a contract signed and see above for checking references.

Just wanted to state this and I do want some feedback. Hopefully it’s not a bad read and please understand this is not to insult anyone it’s to explain my point of view and I would like to understand other points of view on this subject.
Apr 01 13 08:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,803
Olivet, Michigan, US


If someone doesn't want to shoot nudes, find a different model.  If there are no models in the area who will shoot with you, either move / travel, or reconsider what it is that you're doing.
Apr 01 13 08:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 36,212
Columbus, Ohio, US


Incubus Portrait Studio wrote:
Just had a few things to say and I wanted to create a small discussion about it. Unfortunately this kinda pertains to the VA and NC area. This will possibly have some regard to other areas too so please join the discussion.

This is more aimed at the huge amount of "models" in this area that are part of the modeling industry that not only don't shoot nudes but condemn other girls for doing so. First off anytime you come across a profile that has to specifically state that they "don't do anything pornographic" that is unfortunately a very subjective statement. What your idea is of something pornographic maybe completely different from another opinion.

But that's not the main reason I'm writing this. The multiple "models" websites I stumble upon are always so judgmental. "I respect my body", "I don't need to share my body with everyone", " I care about myself why would I shoot that way?" "I don't do shots like those girls in hustler" " I'm not a skank, like that" this isn't a quite but apparently 90% of these particular "models" are going to run for office in the next few years also.

This is not a bash on models that genuinely are not into shooting that way, that's totally fine but you may want to find another profession. Not to say you can’t make it without doing nudes and I don't think anyone should *have* to please understand that. But if you’re not comfortable with your body, modeling in high fashion or most any other genre may not be for you.

Societies in America are still very sexually repressed and actually in this area and areas like it are even worse. I'm fine with that, but don't down other people for their decisions. If shooting nude or implied, or anything else of the sort is not your cup of tea, that’s fine. But if it’s because you think your taking "the moral high ground" you’re poorly mistaken. If you think it’s just because the photographer just wants to see you naked than that's just sad. (Check your references before shooting always bring an escort, be comfortable, if you’re scared you won’t do well anyway.) If you think it’s because the photographer is going to do "naughty stuff" with your photos, please be honest with yourselves if you have ever taken a naked picture its somewhere you don't want it to be, unless you own it. Get a contract signed and see above for checking references.

Just wanted to state this and I do want some feedback. Hopefully it’s not a bad read and please understand this is not to insult anyone it’s to explain my point of view and I would like to understand other points of view on this subject.

Reserved for comments after thought....

First thought...
I know a ton of nude models in VA & NC and shot with more than one of them. Why don't you just seek them out, rather than worrying about what someone else thinks or does?

Because really....you're not going to change them, and kinda puts you on their level on the reverse side of the coin.

Second thought....
Oh oh, now we have a cowbell alert.

Apr 01 13 08:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,949
Vineland, New Jersey, US


I understand you haven't been on the forums very long.  For that reason, I'm not going to say anything that might be deemed derogatory, inflammatory or otherwise not conducive to a good discussion.

  popcorn
Apr 01 13 08:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Incubus Portrait Studio
Posts: 15
Newport News, Virginia, US


Art of the nude wrote:
If someone doesn't want to shoot nudes, find a different model.  If there are no models in the area who will shoot with you, either move / travel, or reconsider what it is that you're doing.

I don't think you read the whole thing, and that may be because of my long winded-ness. I dont have an issues with getting models to shoot nudes. I have an issue with models slut shaming others who do.

Apr 01 13 08:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Incubus Portrait Studio
Posts: 15
Newport News, Virginia, US


First thought...
I know a ton of nude models in VA & NC and shot with more than one of them. Why don't you just seek them out, rather than worrying about what someone else thinks or does?

Because really....you're not going to change them, and kinda puts you on their level on the reverse side of the coin.

Second thought....
Oh oh, now we have a cowbell alert.

I agree that's why I asked a question friend. or multiple ones that was kinda long.

Apr 01 13 08:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Incubus Portrait Studio
Posts: 15
Newport News, Virginia, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:
I understand you haven't been on the forums very long.  For that reason, I'm not going to say anything that might be deemed derogatory, inflammatory or otherwise not conducive to a good discussion.

  popcorn

Thanks for that. I'm glad your so merciful and your correct this is my first time.

Apr 01 13 08:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Incubus Portrait Studio
Posts: 15
Newport News, Virginia, US


Still no one from my area of course. I guess I'll see what tomorrow brings.
Apr 01 13 08:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
NewBoldPhoto
Posts: 4,894
PORT MURRAY, New Jersey, US


Incubus Portrait Studio wrote:
I agree that's why I asked a question friend. or multiple ones that was kinda long.

There's a question in there?

Apr 01 13 08:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Evan Hiltunen
Posts: 3,113
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


I haven't met a "huge amount of models" that don't shoot nudes and condemn models that do.

Guessing there are a few out there that fit that profile, but I'm not seeing a big population. Perhaps, you are just unlucky and find people like that.
Apr 01 13 08:50 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


Also, I've been fired for nude modelling without some insane career choices, and I don't think nudity is a requirement for any kind of modelling, except nude modelling.

I really hate the implication that I'm making better choices than someone that chooses not to do nudes, because I'm not. I'm just making me-choices. They're not better or worse, and this whole rant is as offensive to me as the ones about what whores us nude models are.
Apr 01 13 08:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 36,212
Columbus, Ohio, US


NewBoldPhoto wrote:
There's a question in there?

+1
I didn't see a question, I saw an ask for feedback

OP do you realize how mobile some of us have been? Residing in NC or VA doesn't really have much relevance to your OP

Apr 01 13 08:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,803
Olivet, Michigan, US


Art of the nude wrote:
If someone doesn't want to shoot nudes, find a different model.  If there are no models in the area who will shoot with you, either move / travel, or reconsider what it is that you're doing.
Incubus Portrait Studio wrote:
I don't think you read the whole thing, and that may be because of my long winded-ness. I dont have an issues with getting models to shoot nudes. I have an issue with models slut shaming others who do.

So, you think it's unacceptable to judge the choices others make?

As it happens, I'm not a fan of people making negative statements about models who shoot nudes.  But, I'm not going to make rants about it, or attempt to draw conclusions about the nature of society from what 19 year old girls say in an online profile.

Apr 01 13 09:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,803
Olivet, Michigan, US


Evan Hiltunen wrote:
I haven't met a "huge amount of models" that don't shoot nudes and condemn models that do.

Guessing there are a few out there that fit that profile, but I'm not seeing a big population. Perhaps, you are just unlucky and find people like that.

I've had interactions with about five, out of perhaps 3,000 models I've had some sort of conversation with.  I've encountered a lot more who respect or admire models who are comfortable shooting nudes.

Apr 01 13 09:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Evan Hiltunen
Posts: 3,113
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Art of the nude wrote:

I've had interactions with about five, out of perhaps 3,000 models I've had some sort of conversation with.  I've encountered a lot more who respect or admire models who are comfortable shooting nudes.

Same here (with much smaller numbers that I've met and spoken with).

Many models, that don't shoot nudes, are very appreciative of well done nudes ... they just don't do them.

Apr 01 13 09:10 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Justin
Posts: 21,686
Fort Collins, Colorado, US


I'm trying not to say anything.

But in fighting a war with nudes, the nudes are probably going to lose. I mean, there's just a disadvantage there.
Apr 01 13 09:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RBM Photo
Posts: 557
Bellbrook, Ohio, US


OP, just do your own thing and dont waste any time over what other people say or do. Works good for me.
Apr 01 13 09:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
NewBoldPhoto
Posts: 4,894
PORT MURRAY, New Jersey, US


Justin wrote:
I'm trying not to say anything.

But in fighting a war with nudes, the nudes are probably going to lose. I mean, there's just a disadvantage there.

The only problem with that statement is that one can't actually declare war on nudes- nor drugs or terror for that matter... something about the definition of war.

Apr 01 13 09:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art Silva
Posts: 9,051
Santa Barbara, California, US


Can We All Just Get Along... Naked  tongue
Apr 01 13 09:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Incubus Portrait Studio
Posts: 15
Newport News, Virginia, US


Art Silva Photography wrote:
Can We All Just Get Along... Naked  tongue

One of the smarted people on the whole post. Its sad how many people are angry about this. I'm rather sure none of you have read it through. But that is fine I was making a statement and all statements should be open to constructive and well some times quite destructive criticism.

Apr 01 13 09:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Incubus Portrait Studio
Posts: 15
Newport News, Virginia, US


Damianne wrote:
Also, I've been fired for nude modelling without some insane career choices, and I don't think nudity is a requirement for any kind of modelling, except nude modelling.

I really hate the implication that I'm making better choices than someone that chooses not to do nudes, because I'm not. I'm just making me-choices. They're not better or worse, and this whole rant is as offensive to me as the ones about what whores us nude models are.

In your case its understandable to not shoot nude. but isnt that the actual issue, what is wrong with nudity? I'm sure you were doing your job perfectly and they notice you shoot nudes, and decided to get rid of you. Its a shame its not right and as I said they should stop with the slut shaming. as it turns out people don't like when you point out their faults.

Apr 01 13 09:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Incubus Portrait Studio
Posts: 15
Newport News, Virginia, US


NewBoldPhoto wrote:

The only problem with that statement is that one can't actually declare war on nudes- nor drugs or terror for that matter... something about the definition of war.

It was just a name to get attention to the post, and it seems that it worked quite well.

Apr 01 13 09:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Incubus Portrait Studio
Posts: 15
Newport News, Virginia, US


RBM Photo wrote:
OP, just do your own thing and dont waste any time over what other people say or do. Works good for me.

100% agree, people can choose not to answer this post or not. If any one takes offense, that was not my initial intention, but this has been fun so far.

Apr 01 13 09:47 pm  Link  Quote 
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Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


Incubus Portrait Studio wrote:

In your case its understandable to not shoot nude. but isnt that the actual issue, what is wrong with nudity? I'm sure you were doing your job perfectly and they notice you shoot nudes, and decided to get rid of you. Its a shame its not right and as I said they should stop with the slut shaming. as it turns out people don't like when you point out their faults.

You're pointing out others' faults and I don't like it.

You're not thinking very competently and that's offensive to me.

Apr 01 13 11:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Incubus Portrait Studio
Posts: 15
Newport News, Virginia, US


Come on, really people are flagging my profile just because you dont like what I said? now that is a shame.
Apr 01 13 11:34 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


Incubus Portrait Studio wrote:
Come on, really people are flagging my profile just because you dont like what I said? now that is a shame.

Nope, pretty sure you just posted a novel of a rant and mods keep tabs on those threads because they never turn out well, and are consequently noticing that your lack of grammar is accompanied by a disregard for rules.

Apr 01 13 11:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Calypso Moon
Posts: 848
Banning, California, US


I think it's definitely accurate to say that there is a stigma against nudity in certain contexts, while there are inexplicable allowances made in some cases by the media and society at large -- such as in the case of celebrities who pose "implied" on magazine covers or who get snapped sans clothes by the paparazzi.

The fact of the matter is there will always be people who assign moral value to nudity and others who do not.  The models who feel strongly that nudity is wrong have an opinion that should be respected, just as I would hope they would respect those of us who choose to shoot nudes. 

You can't change their minds any more than they could hope to change ours.  Thankfully, there are more than enough models and photographers who don't share the anti-nude opinion and that don't wax poetic on the professional choices of others that they don't agree with.
Apr 01 13 11:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPRINGHEEL
Posts: 38,133
Gibraltar, Michigan, US


Incubus Portrait Studio wrote:

One of the smarted people on the whole post.

Thats lovely

Apr 02 13 12:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,902
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Damianne wrote:
Also, I've been fired for nude modelling without some insane career choices, and I don't think nudity is a requirement for any kind of modelling, except nude modelling.

I really hate the implication that I'm making better choices than someone that chooses not to do nudes, because I'm not. I'm just making me-choices. They're not better or worse, and this whole rant is as offensive to me as the ones about what whores us nude models are.

This

Apr 02 13 12:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Decay of Memory
Posts: 572
Asheville, North Carolina, US


Sorry about the judgmental prudes and models with headache reasons for not getting naked. I don't see either as going away any time soon, even with your sternly worded message.
Apr 02 13 02:36 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
T-D-L
Posts: 10,166
Los Angeles, California, US


I think far too much emphasis is placed on the subject of nudity as a whole on this website, which in turn further reinforces most people's perceptions that this is a site full of creepers who only want to see some titties.  This probably has a lot to do with these girls who are extremely defensive (and at times combative) when it comes to expressing their thoughts and limits with regards to nudity.  It's a cycle that isn't likely to be broken given the atmosphere here.  Think about it:

noob model joins site wanting to "make it" or even just have a fun hobby with no intention of shooting nudes

like sharks, certain photographers will stalk the browse feature for new models and begin asking if they'll get naked

model sticks with it, tries to ignore the shoots she doesn't want to do and sift through all the nude offers for things she is comfortable with

model notices after a while that it's never going to stop

model decides a more stern approach, usually involving something that derides nude photography/modeling in an attempt to curtail the nude requests

sad thing is this probably doesn't stop even after that.

On a tangent, if the model talks to others in her area she'll find that this is common.  Now it probably seems like an epidemic of photographers bugging girls for nudes. 

And let's hope she doesn't join the forums where she'll see such topics as this, the infinite escort debates, the new trend of "safety on shoots" threads, the recent "MM is in the news for disappearing models" and "MM photog guilty of sex attack", as well as the weekly "Waaaahhh, models have nudes in their portfolio but say No Nudes :'("


ETA: Also, the Main Page Announcements which are full of "New nudes!  Check out my work!" and "Looking for hot nude models" etc etc.

Shoutbox: From what I remember the last time I visited regularly was full of sexually suggestive and crass talk.

I think a better question would be: Can you really blame them?
Apr 02 13 03:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lazyi Photography
Posts: 1,224
Columbus, Ohio, US


Justin wrote:
I'm trying not to say anything.

But in fighting a war with nudes, the nudes are probably going to lose. I mean, there's just a disadvantage there.

less places to carry weapons...

Apr 02 13 04:16 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 15,921
New York, New York, US


To some, letting anyone see their body is a very intimate, special thing.
A stranger's eyes seeing one's body would be upsetting as it would be sharing unwarranted familiarity and intimacy.

Nudity in this light can be seen as pornographic to one who may uphold these beliefs.
Can't really change the core of a person's creed.

Why take offense?
Apr 02 13 04:25 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 15,921
New York, New York, US


As for my take -

I am no problem with nudity and I enjoy seeing a well done nude.
Now, let me force everyone to think exactly like I do!
Apr 02 13 04:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
alessandro2009
Posts: 7,360
Florence, Toscana, Italy


Incubus Portrait Studio wrote:
Just wanted to state this and I do want some feedback.
...
Hopefully it’s not a bad read and please understand this is not to insult anyone it’s to explain my point of view and I would like to understand other points of view on this subject.

I think it is not worth starting discussions on certain topics on the web, not only because they may easily be misunderstood (since is used a write form and usually is present also a lack of attention during the reading) but also because the perceptions as well as beliefs, etc. are factors outside our control.
So my very pragmatic tips is just focus your energy on what you can manage without wasting time on these type of discussions despite certain attitudes can be frustrating and in the case of Usa on that topics the problems may be greater.

Apr 02 13 04:34 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 15,921
New York, New York, US


Is spreading your vag spread eagle with a lens seeing your uterus pornographic?

Just curious.

P.S. I read your entire post.
Comments like that are probably as annoying as the Adult section that is in the 'Talent' section of Craigslist to me.
Apr 02 13 04:45 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 15,921
New York, New York, US


Random thought on sexual repression...


Guys that have an issue with women being too good in bed have major issues.
Apr 02 13 04:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jim McSmith
Posts: 757
Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom


People have different ideas about what is acceptable. I refer people to the law and what is legal. If it's legal and you don't like it then tough. There are lots of things I don't like but it goes on and doesn't get stigmatized. For example, I don't like cruelty to animals and yet it goes on domestically and commercially all the time and mostly legally. I don't go ranting at hunters, trappers, circuses or seaworld even though what they often do is disgusting. Same goes for the military. They are often to be found killing innocent women and children with impunity. How many complain to the Department of Defence? What about the child slaves working for big global corporations in Asia? How many complain about these children being forced to work 15 hour shifts 7 days per week the product of which can be found on the shelves of Walmart? So the thing to do is ignore the bigots.
Apr 02 13 11:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,916
Buena Park, California, US


Maybe you just need to step up your game.  then those that said no might suddenly say yes.
Apr 02 13 12:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,916
Buena Park, California, US


Incubus Portrait Studio wrote:

I don't think you read the whole thing, and that may be because of my long winded-ness. I dont have an issues with getting models to shoot nudes. I have an issue with models slut shaming others who do.

oh well that makes sense. I hate those model sluts too!!  Damn sluts!!  Sluts that don't pose n00d should be perma-banned from MM.

Apr 02 13 12:45 pm  Link  Quote 
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