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first12
Retoucher
FKW
Posts: 194
Jakarta, Jakarta, Indonesia


A-M-P wrote:

and a lot of retouching

+1

Apr 12 13 03:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Peano
Posts: 4,106
Lynchburg, Virginia, US


We've probably reached a point where we might as well agree to disagree ...

Krunoslav-Stifter wrote:
To learn to retouch at a higher level How do I get... must be preceded by Why should I?

Must? I would say might be preceded. There's no pedagogical reason why a person can't learn techniques first and later gain insight and judgment about using those techniques. Children learn to stack blocks before they learn how to build cathedrals.

Principle based learning vs. Technique based learning.

Neither principle nor technique is pre-ordained as a "basis" for learning. One can readily move from one to the other, and back again, in shuttle fashion.

You are always there to provide the technique and unless they understand the principle behind what you did, than they will always be dependent on who ever showed them the technique. Namely you.

Always? That's a very sweeping empirical generalization. Are you sure you have the empirical evidence to support it? (I'm pretty sure you don't. You're making stuff up.)

Off course for full sucess you need both principle (why does it work) and the technique (how dose it work) to enforce that principle, otherwise its just a theory. But order of questions makes a lot of difference.

As I said, we can just agree to disagree about this. I would only point out how often you insert absolutes into your answers: must, always, never.

You seem to assume that when people ask, "How do I get this effect?" they are only going to paint by the numbers. I make no such assumption. They might follow the recipe like blind mice, or they might use it to achieve something brilliantly creative. I have no way of knowing and no need to know. When they ask a specific question, I give a specific answer. I make no guesses or assumptions about what they'll do with it -- or what they're capable of doing with it.

Apr 12 13 03:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 707
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain


Peano wrote:
We've probably reached a point where we might as well agree to disagree ...

Krunoslav-Stifter wrote:
To learn to retouch at a higher level How do I get... must be preceded by Why should I?

Must? I would say might be preceded. There's no pedagogical reason why a person can't learn techniques first and later gain insight and judgment about using those techniques. Children learn to stack blocks before they learn how to build cathedrals.

Principle based learning vs. Technique based learning.

Neither principle nor technique is pre-ordained as a "basis" for learning. One can readily move from one to the other, and back again, in shuttle fashion.

You are always there to provide the technique and unless they understand the principle behind what you did, than they will always be dependent on who ever showed them the technique. Namely you.

Always? That's a very sweeping empirical generalization. Are you sure you have the empirical evidence to support it? (I'm pretty sure you don't. You're making stuff up.)


As I said, we can just agree to disagree about this. I would only point out how often you insert absolutes into your answers: must, always, never.

You seem to assume that when people ask, "How do I get this effect?" they are only going to paint by the numbers. I make no such assumption. They might follow the recipe like blind mice, or they might use it to achieve something brilliantly creative. I have no way of knowing and no need to know. When they ask a specific question, I give a specific answer. I make no guesses or assumptions about what they'll do with it -- or what they're capable of doing with it.

+1

Apr 12 13 04:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15,216
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


MC Photo wrote:

Is that what you see?

I see more than one way to skin a cat.

Apr 12 13 05:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Krunoslav Stifter
Posts: 3,843
Santa Cruz, California, US


Peano wrote:
We've probably reached a point where we might as well agree to disagree ...

Yup. smile

Apr 12 13 06:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Rafael_Alexander
Posts: 82
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Why not ask Cristian Girotto #1341793 he retouched it...
Apr 12 13 08:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
mophotoart
Posts: 537
Wichita, Kansas, US


maybe learn to do it your way....what you might find is your magic....gets the look you want...second..learn what the customer wants if your getting paid....
Apr 12 13 08:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sergei Rodionov
Posts: 865
Dallas, Texas, US


I am with Krunoslav here..

Its difference in educational systems showing its ugly head once again.
Textbook/cookbook vs thinking up solution, using bits of knowledge.

While cookbook will get you there in a jiffy and thus you wouldnt have to think - you wont learn that there are more ways to get to 5 than to just do 2+2+1 (you can also do 2*3 - 1 & etc). Or what 42 is.

Its same in photography and its same in retouching. Many ways lead to to resulting image, but very few people got patience to learn basics. I am not exception, btw. I lack patience to do high end retouching and D&B like Krunoslav and Natalia do - my ADD kicks in like crazy after hour of attempting to do pixel level d&b , yet i am loving to learn basics of retouching one by one, sometime coming back and scrapping whole thing , so i can come up with technique that fitting what i got to do and want to do.

Overwise its always about buying super duper skillet to get fantastic meal cooked.
Apr 15 13 02:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Peano
Posts: 4,106
Lynchburg, Virginia, US


Sergei Rodionov wrote:
I am with Krunoslav here..

Its difference in educational systems showing its ugly head once again.
Textbook/cookbook vs thinking up solution, using bits of knowledge.

Just for the record, I have not defended "cookbook" approaches over "thinking" approaches. If you read what I said in in that light, you are badly mistaken.

Apr 15 13 02:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Feverstockphoto
Posts: 535
Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom


^ Reminds me of the krate kid scene, 'wax on wax off' when he got frustrated.., until the revelation of why he was doing what he was doing became evident. It can happen that way when you are learning something but not realy fully understanding and then the matrix moment, lightbulb/eureka moment happens.
Apr 15 13 05:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andrea Acailawen
Posts: 948
Tampa, Florida, US


Peano wrote:
Must? I would say might be preceded. There's no pedagogical reason why a person can't learn techniques first and later gain insight and judgment about using those techniques. Children learn to stack blocks before they learn how to build cathedrals.

+1

I think it's important to remember that there are different learning styles and what works for one person may not work for another. Some need to know the why/how behind a technique before they learn it. Their learning is linear and progressive, starting with the basics and working their way up. Others learn through deconstruction, analyzing a final product and breaking down the techniques used before deciding when those techniques are appropriate. Neither method of learning, or understanding, is necessarily better than the other. They're just different.

Apr 17 13 09:35 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
nobody frm nowhere
Posts: 25
Nottingham, Maryland, US


World Class Retoucher at it's BEST.

also,
Mr. Pratik Naik (solsticeretouch.com) did a tutorial on something alike in a work shop.
Apr 17 13 03:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Oscar Partida
Posts: 729
San Diego, California, US


Feverstockphoto wrote:
^ Reminds me of the krate kid scene, 'wax on wax off' when he got frustrated.., until the revelation of why he was doing what he was doing became evident. It can happen that way when you are learning something but not realy fully understanding and then the matrix moment, lightbulb/eureka moment happens.

+1

Apr 20 13 09:50 pm  Link  Quote 
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