Will Snizek wrote:

Being a forum bully doesn't do much for someone's image either!  Definitely another form of repellant.

Spouting misinformation is waaaay worse.

Will Snizek wrote:

Being a forum bully doesn't do much for someone's image either!  Definitely another form of repellant.

you're new here aren't you?

Fred Gerhart wrote:
Wrong on so many levels. Paid work goes unanswered as well.... When I was paying models it would take weeks before a shoot gelled.

If one is either a model or photographer they had best get their head screwed on straight and then get on with the work regardless of trade or paid. Trade work for photographers is both important and EXPENSIVE. We too have costs that have to be meet.  The money sword has two edges and cuts both ways...

If a model or photographer books trade and then prioritizes money shoot over the trade shoot they should be banned from this system. A promise is a promise and a person is only as good as their word.

If models are ignoring your paid requests, then look at what you are doing.  You are either asking for too much for too little money, or your communication skills are lacking. For example, I have a strict policy of never shooting with someone who I think is difficult or is just simply an ass.  It's not worth any amount of money to me.  Have someone review your emails and how you communicate with models.  Maybe they just don't want to work with you at any price.

Farenell Photography wrote:
I guess maybe our experiences are different but I haven't remotely found that to be the case.

If a person is going to bail on a shoot or never setting a shoot date when prompted, it'll happen regardless of what the pay rate is.

Then maybe they were never fully invested to begin with.  They didn't care enough about what you were shooting, or about the concept, about you, and/or about the amount of money.

But, my post was only about the original subject of models who don't ever set a shoot date.

Will Snizek wrote:

Being a forum bully doesn't do much for someone's image either!  Definitely another form of repellant.

It isn't bullying to repeatedly tell you to stop spreading bad information to newbies.

In the past 48 hours you've claimed that NYC is a land of magical milk and honey that has tons of modeling work for those under 5'5" who don't shoot nudes to make a full time living. To compound the tragedy, you gave this sage advice to a 5'0 girl in rural Michigan.

I pulled your card. You know nothing of NYC, and spreading contextless misinformation is misleading and potentially harmful to any newbie who might waste time and money following your terrible advice, because they don't know better

You have never worked as a casting agent or photographer in NYC, and decided to pass on 3rd party hearsay as gospel.

In the same thread, you claimed Suicide Girls was a good option for shorter girls who didn't want to shoot nude.

Suicide Girls is a softcore site that REQUIRES nudity.

This morning you were lecturing another newbie on Suicide Girls procedures and contracts.

You don't even correctly know that they require nudity, have never shot for them, but again....3rd party info passed off as practical advice.

I advised them to PM Jojo, who has modeled for SG, as a better source of info.


Your definition of bullying is apparently being called out on your misrepresentation and ignorance, and being asked to stop.

glumpy wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how many times I contact a model on a site such as this or they contact me and we have a discussion where they tell you how much they love your work and are keen to shoot with you,right up till the time you ask when they are free?

The thought of being a model is thrilling, but actually doing so can lead to "stage fright".

This is why there is often enthusiastic conversation before flaking, and it takes a degree of seriousness and maturity to actually go through with it.

landofy wrote:
It's not a model problem, it's a unprofessional people problem. I experienced exactly the same thing with photographers when I was a model.

It's much the same for photographers, but on average are better at following through than models.

Paige Morgan wrote:
This belongs in OT

Although it's a tired topic, it still seems appropriate for General Industry IMHO.

Nigel Jourdain wrote:
90% chance their lack response- or pro flake ism, is due to who they've worked with recently. They generalize you with the last guy. He bagged and fought for their time, just as you, but after his wife was finally out shopping and she sat in his garage for 2 hours listening to the 'oh yeah.... thats hot' (heavy breathing) the 'model' is over it. Move on to the next model.

I'm thinking that not getting images from photographers turns off more models than bad shoot experiences.

Paige Morgan wrote:
Making bitter rants in the forum is also an excellent model repellent.

The flake models don't generally read them, and you'll throughly annoy the reliable ones who make use of them.


This belongs in OT

That's a big +1.

glumpy wrote:
A.
Ask them when they are available to do a shoot.

Never ceases to amaze me how many times I contact a model on a site such as this or they contact me and we have a discussion where they tell you how much they love your work and are keen to shoot with you,right up till the time you ask when they are free?

After that, Crickets.

I'm about double most models age so I'm wondering if asking " When are you available to shoot?" is some modern day sort of code for " I'm a criminally insane deviot who wants to hack your body into little pieces" and I missed that somewhere along the line.

I agree that the scenario you describe is silly and frustrating, but that's not the point.  Airing your dirty laundry in a public forum is bad form and a possible turn-off to potential collaborators, no matter who is in the wrong.  It might make you feel a little better in the short term, but in the long term it's not worth it.

I could write a book for everyone to read on the professional frustrations I've experienced over the years, but it would serve absolutely no purpose.

Richard Dubois wrote:
I agree that the scenario you describe is silly and frustrating, but that's not the point.  Airing your dirty laundry in a public forum is bad form and a possible turn-off to potential collaborators, no matter who is in the wrong.  It might make you feel a little better in the short term, but in the long term it's not worth it.

I could write a book for everyone to read on the professional frustrations I've experienced over the years, but it would serve absolutely no purpose.

A newbie is entitled to a "Mulligan" or two, but OP has been here since 2008.

Paige Morgan wrote:
Making bitter rants in the forum is also an excellent model repellent.

The flake models don't generally read them, and you'll throughly annoy the reliable ones who make use of them.


This belongs in OT

Will Snizek wrote:
Being a forum bully doesn't do much for someone's image either!  Definitely another form of repellant.

No, she is correct, and she is not being a bully in saying the truth.  Ranting is a repellent to a lot of things.  THIS SHOULD BE IN OT!

The very people this rant is aimed towards are not likely to be the ones reading it either.   To the OP:  People socialize, say nice things like "you have nice work, it'd be great to shoot with you ..." without actually meaning that they are ready to book a shoot right then and now.  There are a several hundred models on my "friends" list on this very site that I would love to shoot with, but I'm not ready for them. 

The solution?  Be honest!  If the person is evasive about being committed to a date and time, then just ask something to the effect of "So you are not ready to book a date and time yet?"  And for those who are afraid that they'll miss out on a shoot by not committing, simply be honest and say "I'd love to shoot, but I can't commit to a date right now ... but perhaps in a couple months?"  Or something to that effect.

I normally will book a shoot a week out ... and no further out that a couple weeks.  I find that when I start booking a month or more in advance, things happen to make it necessary to change the commitment time or date.  Only legal court dates, and doctor appointments are booked further in advance than my shoots.

Paige Morgan wrote:
Making bitter rants in the forum is also an excellent model repellent.

The flake models don't generally read them, and you'll throughly annoy the reliable ones who make use of them.


This belongs in OT

Will Snizek wrote:
Being a forum bully doesn't do much for someone's image either!  Definitely another form of repellant.

Well, since Paige isn't a Forum bully, that may explain why so many people respect her and her advice...

She's one of the more helpful and knowledgeable folks in the forums, and many will agree.

Click Hamilton wrote:
OK, ... back to the crickets.


Some people avoid saying "no" because they don't want to reject or offend. Some people are wishy-washy, not knowing what they themselves want to do. At the moment of truth, some people are nervous and get cold feet.


We should say "yes" ... "no" ... or "I'm not available at this time."



It's too confusing when we have to guess because we are left hanging with an open-ended  non-answer.

Yes, people can be very noncommittal towards booking too far out in the future.   Others maybe just being polite, but timid about shooting with that person.  Once again!   It's ALL ABOUT COMMUNICATION!!!!!

Instead of ranting in the forums, be direct with the people that you are trying to communicate with, as this will get the answers you are looking for.  Learning how to ask the right questions will help reduce the chances of flakes, "llama herders"  and evasive answers to booking commitments or any number of problems.   It seems with all this wonderful technology we now have to communicate with ... we've forgotten how to communicate?  Doe anyone practice the "art of conversation" anymore?

Patrick Walberg wrote:
The very people this rant is aimed towards are not likely to be the ones reading it either.

So often true yet so often forgotten.

Will Snizek wrote:

Being a forum bully doesn't do much for someone's image either!  Definitely another form of repellant.

!%!?" and "!%&* kinda words.

Siddy Pain wrote:
I think sometimes models get a bit scared of their own shadows. It's all fine and dandy talking about the possibility of a shoot but then when you want to set a confirmed date they flake hard like their courage just disappears.

I've been doing this for 8 years once a week on average, and still feel the fear before every shoot. It's all about learning to manage and overcome it.

The fear and the passion are closely related, and you can't have one without the other. In other words, if you feel no fear before a shoot, your heart isn't in it.

glumpy wrote:
A.
Ask them when they are available to do a shoot.

Never ceases to amaze me how many times I contact a llama on a site such as this or they contact me and we have a discussion where they tell you how much they love your work and are keen to shoot with you,right up till the time you ask when they are free?

After that, Crickets.

I'm about double most llamas age so I'm wondering if asking " When are you available to shoot?" is some modern day sort of code for " I'm a criminally insane deviot who wants to hack your body into little pieces" and I missed that somewhere along the line.

Yeah, it must be the llamas' fault.  Always.

landofy wrote:
It's not a model problem, it's a unprofessional people problem. I experienced exactly the same thing with photographers when I was a model.

+1
Talk for months even and then.. time for shoot then .....crickets. Just had it happen again. It's frustrating when I go out buy a special wardrobe get hair, nails, brows etc... done to the specs asked for then.......crickets. I could have filled that time with someone serious about shooting. Happens maybe 4-5 times a year. Thinking about getting a Deposit for big shoots from now on. I spent over 600.00 for this one.

Wildman Photo wrote:
I've talked with a couple of people that have told me that, like myself, they have noticed a sharp rise with models not returning messages.  There are a couple of models I work with regularly now because they realize I'm a nice guy hiring them to pose for photographs for a couple of hours and that's all.  I'm happily married and It's about the same as hiring someone to mow my lawn.   A lot of models make a lot more of it than they should.

I don't make messages or a lack of replying to messages a factor in my booking.  If I have not spoken to a model on the phone, I will not book that model.  I do not trust messaging as a sole form of communication. If I have not confirmed the date and time over the phone, it's not going to happen!

Paige Morgan wrote:

Some people are allergic to logic....on the plus side his personal attack/temper tantrum handily answered his own essential question regarding why he's having trouble getting models to follow through

Unfortunately YOUR logic is the one that's flawed.
I have been a Full time shooter longer than you have been alive. That comment made me really laugh. You shouldn't think that just because someone has better things to do than make thousands of posts here that a person hasn't been earning their full time living from Photography for a long time.
I think you are the one thats making comments that show your real mentality.

I don't have any problem getting people to work with me, that was never what I said. What I was talking about is the ones whom in contrast to others, are all excited right up to the point of going ahead with a shoot. The people that do follow through  are always happy to work with me again so once more you're logic is that which is flawed.

You shouldn't make Judgement based on what people say because it doesn't agree with the chip you carry round on your shoulder. But carry on because you clearly have a lot more personal attachment to the internet modeling game than I do.

Wildman Photo wrote:
I've talked with a couple of people that have told me that, like myself, they have noticed a sharp rise with models not returning messages.  There are a couple of models I work with regularly now because they realize I'm a nice guy hiring them to pose for photographs for a couple of hours and that's all.  I'm happily married and It's about the same as hiring someone to mow my lawn.   A lot of models make a lot more of it than they should.

Exactly.

If you went up to someone and asked them to mow your lawn, you would not expect them to just ignore you and not reply. You would not also expect they would say yes, that's great, can't wait to earn some money and then when you asked when they were free to come do it they would not answer.

Why this is accepted and defended in modeling I'm sure there are a bunch of far fetched answers for but in reality they are just rubbish excuses.

Schlake wrote:
I think the internet is how models get scared off.

I'm in my 40s.  The girls going to the local college are in their teens and early 20s.  Every one of them I've walked up to and said "I have a bag of handcuffs and a digital camera.  Would you like to go out to the desert with me?" has gone out to the desert with me.  I've never been turned down or stood up*.  On the other hand, contacting models with a clear description of a non-pornographic paid photoshoot that doesn't involve taking her out to the desert with a bag of handcuffs is pretty much a recipe for failure.

*) There was a Chinese girl though, whom I thought was a grad student, but who turned out to be 18 and didn't speak English well enough to understand what I had said.  She still went out to the desert with me, but was a bit weirded out by the handcuffs so we didn't use them.

I have found much the same.
Go up to a pretty girl in the street, hand her a card, tell her you are a photographer and you'd like to shoot her and you will give her some pictures in return for her time, There's my details, get back to me if you're interested, is infinitely more productive than trying to find people on model sites.

40% I never hear from. 50% of the rest will contact me and then tell me they aren't interested once I explain what I am looking to do.  Of the ones that say they are keen, I can't remember a single one flaking out or not replying after everything has been discussed and they have said they are interested or disappearing after I have asked when they are available to shoot. It just hasn't happened unlike so many time wasting so called models from web sites.

If my approach, mannerisms or the bloodied chainsaw I carry round with me don't cause these girls to fall over when I ask them when are they available to shoot, I can't see any logical and reasonable explanation why models from web sites should be any different.

glumpy wrote:
Unfortunately YOUR logic is the one that's flawed.
I have been a Full time shooter longer than you have been alive. That comment made me really laugh. You shouldn't think that just because someone has better things to do than make thousands of posts here that a person hasn't been earning their full time living from Photography for a long time.
I think you are the one thats making comments that show your real mentality.

I don't have any problem getting people to work with me, that was never what I said. What I was talking about is the ones whom in contrast to others, are all excited right up to the point of going ahead with a shoot. The people that do follow through  are always happy to work with me again so once more you're logic is that which is flawed.

You shouldn't make Judgement based on what people say because it doesn't agree with the chip you carry round on your shoulder. But carry on because you clearly have a lot more personal attachment to the internet modeling game than I do.

Of course I'm attached and invested....anything worth doing is worth doing well and with care.

If you are making a living on photography, hire vetted agency girls and spare yourself the crapshoot and stress.

As far as this specific community.....there's been a lot of identical threads on this subject. Hundreds, maybe thousands.


NEVER has it resulted in a flood of repentant flakes posting in tongues and praising the wisdom of the OP for showing them the sacred light and the Tao of freelance modeling and inspiring the unprofessional people into changing their flaky ways and pledging allegiance to the flag and Saint Dean Johnson.

The flakes keep on being flakes, and not logging in or checking messages or following up or reading forum threads.

The rest of us have to listen to the same story of crappy behavior that we don't engage in in the first place.

Personally attacking me repeatedly or meaningless chest thumping regarding your experiences isn't going to change that fact.

If one or two models flake on you, it's probably them. If your flake rate is 50% or higher, you most likely need to look in the mirror, and switch up your methodology when casting and communicating.

Paige Morgan wrote:
If one or two models flake on you, it's probably them. If your flake rate is 50% or higher, you most likely need to look in the mirror, and switch up your methodology when casting and communicating.

This I would certainly agree with you on with almost anything else.

Unfortunately in the modeling game, I don't believe it holds true.
The models whom I approach/recruit on the street have never given me an ounce of the mucking around, grief and frustration that internet models have not only given me, but endless others.

I'm the " Constant" in the equation. Same person, mannerisms, folio of work to show, shoot ideas etc.  The variable is the place I find people to work with.  One variable is as I would think things should be, straightforward and uncomplicated.
Real world manners, behaviours and common courtesies apply. People say they are interested and they follow through right to the point of turning up on time. No complications, laughable excuses, dying grandmothers, double talk or anything else found in the net modeling world.

The other, well it's basicaly a fking nightmare thats more trouble than it's worth unless you are some desperate that will do anything to get attention from a female.
And there sure is plenty of them on these places.
Recruiting from this arena is like trying to work in an upside down alternate universe or dealing with martians from the planet Zorg.

IF all my approaches to people resulted in the same outcome, I'd fully agree, the problem would be mine. As there is a marked difference in the results I get which solely comes down to people from the net or from the street, Then to me that makes it clear where the issue actually is.
Of course the other fly in the ointment is that I don't get any grief from paying clients either.

At worst one will have to reschedule at which time I have always got the maximum notice, apologies profuse and a new shoot date very quickly if not immediately. The only time I had a " Flake" was when a client was rushed to hospital the morning we were going to shoot and spent the next 3.5 months there. even so, her friend rang me that afternoon to let me know what happened and the woman herself rang me the day after she got out of hospital to apologise for wasting my time!!

Furthermore, plenty of other people have found the same thing with models Vs off the street contacts so it's not an unusual or a typical Scenario.
From this i'm bloody sure the problem is nieth my own or the majority of other shooters. That Kind of narrows things down a bit doesn't it?


As for listening to the same stories, If you don't want to hear them, why are you engaging in the threads in the first place? If the tides were turned the advise would be move on to the next one so perhaps that would be the wiser course of action for you.

Is it your assertion that only topics that haven't been discussed previously are allowed to be mentioned so you don't become bored or frustrated?

That will certainly slow some people's post tallys down a bit!  :0)

glumpy wrote:
A.
Ask them when they are available to do a shoot.

If that question is either preceded or followed by "TF?" that might be your issue.

Nico Simon Princely wrote:
The truth is it's an attractive female thing. Anyone that has worked with and been around attractive women will tell you how flighty, flaky and inconsiderate most of them are and how they think nothing of blowing people off and flaking.

I'm an artist in addition to a model. I hire models to work from regularly, including "attractive" females. I have never once had a problem like this that was specific to how a girl looked. Namely, I think that's because I don't enter a situation with the expectation that if a girl is pretty that she blows people off. I find that when you do have those expectations and make a blatantly misogynist post about it in the forums that the models who do fall under your category of "attractive" will be 8479320687364 times less likely to work with you. So there you go.

MoRina wrote:
I am going to assume you are offering TF to these llamas, although, if you are offering a small amount of pay or just gas money, this still applies.

When you are dealing with hobbyists, you are fighting against all the other things that make demands on that person's time - family, friends, work/school, their other hobbies, etc.  When you contact a llama, she looks at your portfolio, and thinks "sure, why not?" and thinks it would be nice to shoot with you.  When you try to pin down a date, that's when the reality of prioritizing all the other things in her life has to start. 

Before the actual commitment has to be made, there's not a huge investment.  When it comes time to make the commitment, that's when she is going to look twice and three times again at your portfolio, maybe check a few references, and figure out does she REALLY REALLY want to shoot with you, because it means giving up something else.  At this point she is looking for a reason NOT to shoot with you.

When you pay a llama a reasonable rate, she will prioritize the shoot with you and choose to shoot over getting together with her family or friends, because there is an obvious reason to do so.  Shooting trade is a crap shoot...there is no guarantee a llama is going to get anything of value from a trade shoot.

Rather than bitch about this happening over and over, look at your actions and what you can do to overcome it.  Either pay llamas and/or work harder to get them interested in shooting with you - share your concept with them, tell them why you chose them, specifically, for the concept.  Make them feel like an integral part of the shoot.  Fill your portfolio with shots that flatter the llamas, so they see what they can gain from trading with you.

Lots of insight here about how llamas (and women in general) slice and dice their free time.  'Not to mention that llamas are often dealing with more than one photographer at any given time.

narie wrote:
This... its not exclusively a model problem.

Photographer contacts me, I say that's great, what ideas you got? Sounds good, I'm generally available __ and ____ but with enough notice I could do a day you really want to do. So when are you available?


*silence*

I've even chased a few up like "Hey hope you haven't forgot me after contacting me!"... reply "Oh yeah sorry haha so when are you available?" .... *facepalm*

Point being its to do with the person not really whether they are a model or not.

This happens to me really frequently - glad I'm not the only one :-/