Good Egg Productions wrote:
offer them something they want.




yes, it's that simple.

I know there are much more talented photographers out there, but I assume if they have booked with me, they have looked over my work, agreed on the concept we are shooting, and they have already decided I can offer something they want? If not, why book with someone in the first place?

Good Egg Productions wrote:
offer them something they want.




yes, it's that simple.

Sorry......kinda, but it doesn't always work that way.

Cherrystone wrote:

Good Egg Productions wrote:
offer them something they want.




yes, it's that simple.

Sorry......kinda, but it doesn't always work that way.

I think that it does.
If we're talking a working professional model, she wants to be paid.  So pay her rate, and the likelihood that she will flake is very low.
If we're talking trade shooting, then offering a model something so interesting or rare that she can't just get it everywhere else and she will show up.  That could be an amazing secret location, an incredible idea, a piece of wardrobe, or even just a place to stay while she's traveling through on a tour.

Look.  It's really not that difficult.  If you're going to just offer them 10 finished images of your shoot, that might not be enough if that shoot is just some fashion look against a paper drop.  However, if you make it clear to the model that it's going to be a team of people, makeup, hair and wardrobe to put her in a couture gown in a mansion with a lighting tech for publication submission, a model might consider that a higher priority than having to walk her dog.

Also, getting the details to the model early and having a working phone number for her helps.

Good Egg Productions wrote:
offer them something they want.




yes, it's that simple.

Gotta disagree with you that its as simple as....give them what they want.

Why would they agree to shoot in the first place if pictures with you isn't what they want.

I agree somewhat that if they want to bad enough they will not flake but I would add its much more about communication then just the simple want to do a shoot. Find models that act more professionally in their communication and attitude towards their modelling with you, they tend to take it more seriously and genuinely want to be doing this. Some from MM on both sides of the camera are here just to say yea I'm a *insert model, photographer, or whatever here* but don't really care to go out and produce work as much as claim they do, and its usually not very difficult to figure out who these are based on the communication you have with them before the shoot day.

Gerard  wrote:

I know there are much more talented photographers out there, but I assume if they have booked with me, they have looked over my work, agreed on the concept we are shooting, and they have already decided I can offer something they want? If not, why book with someone in the first place?

The minute you stop asking yourself why people do what they do, the more peaceful you will be.

DarrylPascoePhotography wrote:

Gotta disagree with you that its as simple as....give them what they want.

Why would they agree to shoot in the first place if pictures with you isn't what they want.

I agree somewhat that if they want to bad enough they will not flake but I would add its much more about communication then just the simple want to do a shoot. Find models that act more professionally in their communication and attitude towards their modelling with you, they tend to take it more seriously and genuinely want to be doing this. Some from MM on both sides of the camera are here just to say yea I'm a *insert model, photographer, or whatever here* but don't really care to go out and produce work as much as claim they do, and its usually not very difficult to figure out who these are based on the communication you have with them before the shoot day.

Yes, I oversimplified it.  But at the end of the day, isn't that why we ALL do what we do?  Because we want to enough.

So I stand by my opinion that if you offer something that a person wants enough, they will do it.

Why do you go to your job?

Russ Turner Photography wrote:
Check references.  Network with other photographers in your area and find out who they recommend booking with.  Look for models with a number of shoots under their belt - They tend to be more serious about it.

Paying is another possibility but (in my experience) not a guarantee - if you're going to pay still look for models that take their modeling (and reputation) seriously.

This is a pretty key point.  Don't ask the models for references, go to their portfolio, find the photographers they've worked with and ask them how the model was to work with.

Network the forums- there's a lot of models who frequent the forums (or used to be, I've been kind of in and out for the past 2 years) that it's obvious that they work hard and are quality employees for a shoot.

If you really want to work with someone who is in, say... Michigan- find out if they'd be willing to trade for travel.  You can often get a round trip plane ticket for what a 2-3 hour shoot would cost you.  If you can put the model up for a day or two so she can find other work in your market, and get a half or full day of shooting with her in return for the investment, you can quickly build up a book full of exceptional models.

George Ruge wrote:
Never, never, never, book a shoot with someone you have not spoken with by phone!!!! Texts, emails, PM's... are all worthless!!! If they won't talk about the shoot, they won't show up for a shoot. Pre-shoot communication is so important.

^^^ False.  Most of my shoots are booked without ever talking on the phone, and I've *never* flaked.  A lot of very successful models and photographers (who aren't flakes) rarely have phone conversations with anyone.

Good Egg Productions wrote:
Offer them something they want enough, and they will not flake.

Great statement to make and to a point sure, but again really oversimplifies the situation....can you guarantee when they say they want it, and agree to it.....that its "enough"?

Did you in your situation book the 8 girls expecting them all to show? or did you book 8 in the hopes that at least * number of girls show.

That is what the OP is asking about..those who claim to want it, it all gets arranged, and then they do not show up. They wanted it enough...right up until the day or whatever? He offered it, they claimed they wanted it enough to book the shoot, and did flake.

You cannot avoid flakes 100%, but by working with llamas who seem to be serious about what they do and in watching for that in the communication process you can avoid many of those that are flakes.

Gerard  wrote:
Your description of the Mud shoot, doesn't sound too different from the way the majority of us probably book our models.  And once again, if they have gone through the back and forth, agreed on a concept and then booked, aren't they already thinking you are giving them something they want?

I've had two people message me with the basic premise that flaking on MM is the rule rather than the exception.  I've not quite found that to be the case, but it is getting close to that.

You need to understand that MM is not what it used to be.  There used to be a better vetting process for models AND photographers to join the site.  Since they were purchased by IB, they have become a revenue generator, and it's become the facebook of modeling.

I believe that there is a huge influx of people who really aren't that serious or interested in following through with things.  I know from my own casting calls that I used to get scores of interested people, and now I only get a dozen or two.  What that tells me is that the serious models are not using the site like they once did and the thousands of new "models" simply don't know how to use it.  Or, they create a profile and quickly forget about it.

Many of the people who have been around for a while had a fear that this would follow in OMP's footsteps, and it truly feels like that fear is becoming a reality.

More of my work and interested models are finding me and scheduling through Facebook than here in the last 12 months.

MelissaAnn  wrote:
^^^ False.  Most of my shoots are booked without ever talking on the phone, and I've *never* flaked.  A lot of very successful llamas and photographers (who aren't flakes) rarely have phone conversations with anyone.

Yes, but you're not a flake. The question was "how to avoid" flakes. Some llamas, including yourself, wouldn't flake regardless of the form of communication, compensation, etc.

I think George was adding something that could help minimize the risk of flaking, or at least recognize a possible red flag.

And even though you've worked a lot of shoots that didn't include a phone conversation, I have to believe if the photographer/client required that you would oblige. I can't see you ever ignoring a correspondence.

M Pandolfo Photography wrote:
Yes, but you're not a flake. The question was "how to avoid" flakes. Some models, including yourself, wouldn't flake regardless of the form of communication, compensation, etc.

I think George was adding something that could help minimize the risk of flaking, or at least recognize a possible red flag.

And even though you've worked a lot of shoots that didn't include a phone conversation, I have to believe if the photographer/client required that you would oblige. I can't see you ever ignoring a correspondence.

Yes, and my point is that if you assume a model won't show up simply because she won't talk on the phone, you're making a mistake of grand proportions, and will be missing out on the opportunity to work with many very responsible and reputable models.

DarrylPascoePhotography wrote:

Great statement to make and to a point sure, but again really oversimplifies the situation....can you guarantee when they say they want it, and agree to it.....that its "enough"?

Did you in your situation book the 8 girls expecting them all to show? or did you book 8 in the hopes that at least * number of girls show.

That is what the OP is asking about..those who claim to want it, it all gets arranged, and then they do not show up. They wanted it enough...right up until the day or whatever? He offered it, they claimed they wanted it enough to book the shoot, and did flake.

You cannot avoid flakes 100%, but by working with models who seem to be serious about what they do and in watching for that in the communication process you can avoid many of those that are flakes.

To answer your question, I did not expect all 8 to show, but I was prepared for it, and they did.  I did not purposely overbook.

While it's true that you can't avoid flakes 100%, there are lots of threads that list tips you can follow to drastically reduce them.  There's also the definition of flake that's an argument.  To me, a flake isn't a cancel that morning or the day before.  A flake is confirming at 10am for a 2pm shoot and then NEVER hearing from the model after that.

The best thing I do to avoid it is to confirm a shoot with a week to go if the shoot was scheduled more than 2 weeks out, then confirm 48 hours away, then confirm the day of.  If I don't get a confirmation, I assume the shoot is off.  I make sure to get at least two ways to contact a model, one being their phone number.  I cover my bases.

But I encourage the OP to research the literally hundreds of other flake threads on MM for more tips for success.

Gerard  wrote:
I know it is a constant often discussed topic but I am really looking for advice on how to increase my chances of avoiding the flakey model.

By the popular definition of flakes according to MM, I've had 3. My definition is a "tad" broader than no call/no show, which would bring me up to 6-7, since 2001.

I will tell you this....if you consistently get flakes over an extended period of time, it ain't them....it's you. You're being blind to what's happening in front of you.

It can be lousy choices, it could be a field of red flags waving in front of you that you're not seeing.

It could be something you're doing yourself.

I'll give you one example of what I do. Rarely do I work with 18-20 yr olds, with a heavy emphasis of rare in the first two years in that age group, when it comes to folks off MM.

I guess that is more of what I'm asking for, what are the red flags? And I know we are painting with broad strokes here, but some of my most enthusiastic llamas have been young, at that age group is useful to me since I can use them for my Senior Shoot portfolio.

MelissaAnn  wrote:

^^^ False.  Most of my shoots are booked without ever talking on the phone, and I've *never* flaked.  A lot of very successful models and photographers (who aren't flakes) rarely have phone conversations with anyone.

You may be the exception.

The people (in general, not just models/photographer) who flake on me the most are the ones who text but never pick up the phone.

Gerard wrote:
I guess that is more of what I'm asking for, what are the red flags? And I know we are painting with broad strokes here, but some of my most enthusiastic models have been young, at that age group is useful to me since I can use them for my Senior Shoot portfolio.

I've shot a lot of seniors, juniors & kids......not off MM though. If you're shooting seniors, why do you not use the choice ones you get, rather than trying to get them off here?

I gave you one legit example, which I know damn well has lessened my flake chronicles over the years. If they're not flakes, the drama factor increases proportionately as age decreases. I don't have much use for that either.
But you discounted it.

Common sense & logic, along with a dose of psychological awareness should be your guide to flakes. I could write a book, but I'm not about to do that on here.

Shitty, half baked communication. Ask 5 questions, and get half an answer in an incomplete sentence.

An overabundance of enthusiasm...."OMG, I cannot wait to shoot, can we do this day after tomorrow", while meanwhile they're ignoring your questions too.

They ask YOU the same question 27 times. Ever get the feeling your talking to a wall?

No email addy or cell number after I ask twice....and I will only ask twice. Asking twice is a flag in itself.

Ad infinitum, ad naseum.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
1)  Check references.

2)  Do better at checking references -- specifically, get to know your local photographers & models, and let them know you.  Be a positive resource for your local community.  Share references.  Share resources.  Share recommendation.  Host get togethers.  Undertake group projects.  Share locations.  Etc.  Once they get to know you, they'll be more likely to share reference information with you.

3)  Work with experienced models who have a known track record.  And yes, that sometimes means paying them.

4)  Work with traveling models who are dependent upon their good reputation to continue their modeling career.  And yes, that sometimes means paying them.

5)  Don't invest a lot of time, money, or energy on new-to-you models -- your first session with a new-to-you model should simply be a "get acquainted" session.  Do your more elaborate sessions with models who have a good track record with you.

6)  Be the best & most influential photographer in your area.

7)  Be more polite & respectful than the model expects.  (Sadly, this is exceedingly easy to do).

8)  Communicate clearly & succinctly.

9)  Don't try to be the model's best friend.  Don't flirt.  Don't try to be clever.  Don't be overly enthusiastic.  Be business like.  You are looking to engage their services.  Do not frighten the model away by your attitude.

^^^ Also very good advice.

George Ruge wrote:
Never, never, never, book a shoot with someone you have not spoken with by phone!!!! Texts, emails, PM's... are all worthless!!! If they won't talk about the shoot, they won't show up for a shoot. Pre-shoot communication is so important.

What nonsense.  I've shot with dozens of people I never spoke with beforehand, and I've never once had a no-show.  Some of the most professionally-minded traveling models I've met don't like to talk on the phone because 1) it can get expensive, and 2) they prefer to avoid the pre-shoot prattle that many hobbyist photographers are prone to.  They don't need your life's story.

Seems to me that the best way to avoid flakes is to follow MelissaAnn's and Looknsee's excellent advice.

George Ruge wrote:
Never, never, never, book a shoot with someone you have not spoken with by phone!!!! Texts, emails, PM's... are all worthless!!! If they won't talk about the shoot, they won't show up for a shoot. Pre-shoot communication is so important.

I don't know about that.  Most people don't like talking on the phone these days.  They prefer a paper trail of conversations which makes total sense.

George Ruge wrote:
Never, never, never, book a shoot with someone you have not spoken with by phone!!!! Texts, emails, PM's... are all worthless!!! If they won't talk about the shoot, they won't show up for a shoot. Pre-shoot communication is so important.

I also have to disagree! I've never spoken on the phone and have shown to ALL of my shoots.