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Photographer
JaneyGarnet
Posts: 85
Portland, Oregon, US


I'm curious as to whether this is standard practice.

I answered a model's casting call for Zivity photographers. My profile states that I only do TF, and the model must have looked at it, because I got a message back saying she only did paid shoots.

It was a polite message, and I'm not at all offended, but I am surprised. I can't remember the current percentages, but Zivity models make significantly more off a set than the photographers do.

Are there really that many photographers so desperate for Zivity sets that they would pay a model for a set that the model would earn more from than they would?
Apr 22 13 05:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Supply & demand.

In this case, if the model is offering reduced rates for shooting Zivity sets (because she potential stands to gain financially from having them on Zivity) then that may be worthwhile for some shooters who would otherwise have to pay her full rates.

With Zivity payouts as they are though, the likelihood of a model making as much from a TF Zivity set as from charging her full rate for shooting that set is probably pretty low unless she happens to be one of the top 10 most popular Zivity models or you happen to be one of the top 5 Zivity photographers. So I can see why a model would consider charging people to shoot Zivity sets. They're not by any means a license to print money, even for popular models.

While a few of the very popular models can make a worthwhile amount from Zivity, the reality is that most of the models on there are probably lucky to make $20 from a set and the photographers half of that.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com
Apr 22 13 05:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Volition Graphics
Posts: 428
Seattle, Washington, US


I had the same thing me happen to me.
I was like, thanks, but no thanks.
Apr 22 13 05:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JaneyGarnet
Posts: 85
Portland, Oregon, US


I understand the model's motivation. What I don't understand is why this would be an attractive offer for a photographer.
Apr 22 13 06:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


JaneyGarnet wrote:
I understand the model's motivation. What I don't understand is why this would be an attractive offer for a photographer.

If it's cheaper than paying her full rates...

Or, if she's popular on Zivity, some photographers may feel it's worth paying to shoot a set with her to potentially increase their appeal to other Zivity models.

As far as I can see, the only difference between this and a 'normal' paid vs. TF negotiation is that the model also potentially stands to make a few $$ (although probably not much) from the pictures, whereas normally it's only the photographer who has the option to do so if he/she can market the images in some way.



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Apr 22 13 06:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4,344
Asheville, North Carolina, US


JaneyGarnet wrote:
I understand the model's motivation. What I don't understand is why this would be an attractive offer for a photographer.

How bad do they want that model? How bad do they want to keep their budget down? If you want the model at the price, it's attractive.

Apr 22 13 06:24 am  Link  Quote 
Model
NicoleNudes
Posts: 3,858
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
Supply & demand.

In this case, if the model is offering reduced rates for shooting Zivity sets (because she potential stands to gain financially from having them on Zivity) then that may be worthwhile for some shooters who would otherwise have to pay her full rates.

With Zivity payouts as they are though, the likelihood of a model making as much from a TF Zivity set as from charging her full rate for shooting that set is probably pretty low unless she happens to be one of the top 10 most popular Zivity models or you happen to be one of the top 5 Zivity photographers. So I can see why a model would consider charging people to shoot Zivity sets. They're not by any means a license to print money, even for popular models.

While a few of the very popular models can make a worthwhile amount from Zivity, the reality is that most of the models on there are probably lucky to make $20 from a set and the photographers half of that.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

This is it exactly.
I find photographer like to try and use Zivity as a way to get a model who normally wouldn't TF with them - to TF with them. They then get offended when I offer them a reduced rate.

If I can't use the images for my portfolio, it's not worth it for me to trade - even if it's for Zivity. Considering I'm not one of the popular models, I'll maybe make $20 off a set - if I'm really lucky.

So, in essence, when a photographer is asking me to shoot a Zivity set for TF, they are asking me to shoot with them (for images I probably won't be able to use), usually for 1-2 hours for less than $20. Thanks, but no thanks.

Apr 22 13 06:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Azimuth Arts
Posts: 1,489
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


JaneyGarnet wrote:
I'm curious as to whether this is standard practice.

I answered a model's casting call for Zivity photographers. My profile states that I only do TF, and the model must have looked at it, because I got a message back saying she only did paid shoots.

It was a polite message, and I'm not at all offended, but I am surprised. I can't remember the current percentages, but Zivity models make significantly more off a set than the photographers do.

Are there really that many photographers so desperate for Zivity sets that they would pay a model for a set that the model would earn more from than they would?

I agree with the others, a model who normally makes maybe $200-300 for a shoot is not likely to earn that much on Zivity, even if you get 4-5 sets.  So shooting for a discounted rate offers the photographer a chance to work with that model cheaper, and he can still make a few dollars from Zivity.  Also Zivity does not require exclusive rights so as a photographer you can still sell the images (though if they are on Zivity you might not make much from them elsewhere).

Apr 22 13 06:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 18,022
Albany, New York, US


JaneyGarnet wrote:
I answered a model's casting call for Zivity photographers. My profile states that I only do TF, and the model must have looked at it, because I got a message back saying she only did paid shoots.

I would not remotely assume that ANYONE reads anybody else's profile here on this site.

Apr 22 13 07:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,381
Portland, Oregon, US


I believe that anyone has the right to request whatever compensation they want.
Everyone else has the right to accept, decline, or make a counter offer.
No one has the right to criticize anyone doing the above.

A person's rates are mostly determined by the supply & demand of suitable talent.  In particular, modeling (and photography) is a competitive business, and if a model demands more money than the other local models, she is likely to be disappointed.
Apr 22 13 08:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,533
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
If it's cheaper than paying her full rates...

Or, if she's popular on Zivity, some photographers may feel it's worth paying to shoot a set with her to potentially increase their appeal to other Zivity llamas.

As far as I can see, the only difference between this and a 'normal' paid vs. TF negotiation is that the llama also potentially stands to make a few $$ (although probably not much) from the pictures, whereas normally it's only the photographer who has the option to do so if he/she can market the images in some way.



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

that logic doesnt work.  if you shoot an image as part of a zivity set you cant turn around and use it elsewhere.  They do demand exclusivity for those images and it makes sense. After all people are paying.   So you are basically left with the out takes from the zivity set.  or shooting something else.

Apr 22 13 11:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SME
Posts: 20,952
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


It's actually against the rules to post casting calls seeking payment.  Casting calls should be posted by those with work to offer.  If a model (or anyone) is looking for work, they should be posting either a travel notice or an availability notice, as applicable to their situation.

If you come across casting calls asking to be paid, please flag them for moderator review.
Apr 22 13 11:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,428
Salem, Oregon, US


i've never paid a zivity model. to me that's not the nature of zivity. it's a collaboration and both the photographer take the risk of not knowing if they will get any votes at all.

for that model maybe you could have said "i'll pay you exactly what i earn from your sets". if she's a top 10 model maybe she can pull in several hundred votes. but even if she gets zero votes you aren't out of pocket on the shoot.

if someone is brand-new to zivity and needs a model to get their account established (and they can't get a model on trade) then that's where maybe paying could make sense.

or if someone is already paying the model then maybe they can throw up a zivity set based on that shoot to see what happens (assuming the model is willing).
Apr 22 13 11:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,428
Salem, Oregon, US


i do whatever i want with my zivity photos, especially after the initial votes are in on the set. did i misread the contract? if they have an exclusive i probably wouldn't shoot any more sets for them unless i was working with a top model who was pretty much guaranteed several hundred votes just for showing up or if the model paid me upfront.

AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
that logic doesnt work.  if you shoot an image as part of a zivity set you cant turn around and use it elsewhere.  They do demand exclusivity for those images and it makes sense. After all people are paying.   So you are basically left with the out takes from the zivity set.  or shooting something else.

Apr 22 13 11:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


Sita Mae wrote:
It's actually against the rules to post casting calls seeking payment.  Casting calls should be posted by those with work to offer.  If a model (or anyone) is looking for work, they should be posting either a travel notice or an availability notice, as applicable to their situation.

If you come across casting calls asking to be paid, please flag them for moderator review.

Thank you. I was surprised that little detail wasn't brought up before this.

Apr 22 13 11:48 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,321
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


JaneyGarnet wrote:
I understand the model's motivation. What I don't understand is why this would be an attractive offer for a photographer.

Its not, really.

However...

Zivity is just another networking site, like MM, FB, Tumblr, dA, etc. You happen to get paid (by which I mean you might make pizza money every couple of months, neither party is making bank) by fans on this one. If you do it right, you can use those fans for bigger payouts (selling prints, using zivity set votes for incentives [ie: vote 40 times and we send you a few shots not posted in the set... still only about 12 bucks but you can do that to an unlimited number of people for as long as the set is live...] get those fans to cross over onto other networking platforms, wishlists, whatever) but honestly youre there because everyone else and their brother is there and you want to be noticed.

If the both of you want to be a part of zivity, its not really a shitty deal, because frankly its not like youre paying her a hundred or so bucks and then shes going to go on to make several hundred more off zivity. Even though the model percentage is higher shes still going to be lucky to make 50 bucks a quarter, and shes going to need a lot more than just one set to do it, and will spend her every waking hour sucking up to fans. Fans respond better to the models than the photographers so even though youre getting paid pennies...shes doing the brunt of that work for you.


If YOU dont want to be a part of zivity...it of course does you no good.

Apr 22 13 11:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,428
Salem, Oregon, US


most of my votes have come courtesy of a top-10 model. otherwise i'm doing well to get into the double digits on votes. you either need a model who has a few big fans or appeals to lots of voters (including other photographers and models).

-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
While a few of the very popular models can make a worthwhile amount from Zivity, the reality is that most of the models on there are probably lucky to make $20 from a set and the photographers half of that.

Apr 22 13 11:57 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,321
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


ontherocks wrote:
i've never paid a zivity model. to me that's not the nature of zivity. it's a collaboration and both the photographer take the risk of not knowing if they will get any votes at all.

for that model maybe you could have said "i'll pay you exactly what i earn from your sets". if she's a top 10 model maybe she can pull in several hundred votes. but even if she gets zero votes you aren't out of pocket on the shoot.

if someone is brand-new to zivity and needs a model to get their account established (and they can't get a model on trade) then that's where maybe paying could make sense.

or if someone is already paying the model then maybe they can throw up a zivity set based on that shoot to see what happens (assuming the model is willing).

Ive been paid for several zivity sets by people who wanted to shoot zivity sets but couldnt get me something that was actually worthwhile for my main portfolio.

Honestly, "fans" go apeshit for okay photos. I dont know why...I have a lot of theories...but mediocre to just okay work gets them opening their wallets more than really amazing work does. So its no skin off my back to have just okay photos of me posted on that site even if I dont think theyre the best.....but I dont need them for my portfolio, and Im not going to shoot hundreds of photos just so I might make 50 bucks from zivity over the course of a year. Especially since its on me to do the work for networking with fans and honestly...I havent logged in to zivity in weeks

Apr 22 13 11:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,428
Salem, Oregon, US


i have a glamour book on shooting for "barely legal" type men's magazines and it basically says the same thing. if the look is overly polished then it won't resonate with the viewers. so they advise the photographer to intentionally make it look like the set was shot by an amateur. maybe then the viewer feels like it's something they could have shot? or it seems more real and voyeuristic?

Laura UnBound wrote:
Honestly, "fans" go apeshit for okay photos. I dont know why...I have a lot of theories...but mediocre to just okay work gets them opening their wallets more than really amazing work does.

Apr 22 13 12:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,614
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
Honestly, "fans" go apeshit for okay photos. I dont know why...I have a lot of theories...but mediocre to just okay work gets them opening their wallets more than really amazing work does. So its no skin off my back to have just okay photos of me posted on that site even if I dont think theyre the best.....but I dont need them for my portfolio, and Im not going to shoot hundreds of photos just so I might make 50 bucks from zivity over the course of a year. Especially since its on me to do the work for networking with fans and honestly...I havent logged in to zivity in weeks

This is so true. Through my stores (not zivity) I make significantly more money from under/overexposed, grainy, shitty color cast, poor composition nude photos than I do stuff that's technically correct.

Apr 22 13 12:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,614
Phoenix, Arizona, US


ontherocks wrote:
i have a glamour book on shooting for "barely legal" type men's magazines and it basically says the same thing. if the look is overly polished then it won't resonate with the viewers. so they advise the photographer to intentionally make it look like the set was shot by an amateur. maybe then the viewer feels like it's something they could have shot? or it seems more real and voyeuristic?

My mantra with the stuff I'm selling is to intentionally make it look like her boyfriend shot it.

I'm also noticing that I make more money from mediocre looking girls than I do super hot ones.

Apr 22 13 12:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
Ive been paid for several zivity sets by people who wanted to shoot zivity sets but couldnt get me something that was actually worthwhile for my main portfolio.

Honestly, "fans" go apeshit for okay photos. I dont know why...I have a lot of theories...but mediocre to just okay work gets them opening their wallets more than really amazing work does. So its no skin off my back to have just okay photos of me posted on that site even if I dont think theyre the best.....but I dont need them for my portfolio, and Im not going to shoot hundreds of photos just so I might make 50 bucks from zivity over the course of a year. Especially since its on me to do the work for networking with fans and honestly...I havent logged in to zivity in weeks

It's the same reason amateur porn makes more money.  I think it's because it seems more realistic and less staged to people.  We also live in a society that in general doesn't value quality so that has to be taken into account.  In ways, the better your product is, the smaller your market becomes.  That doesn't apply to everything in photography, but definitely applies to nude photography.

I see it on Suicide Girls all the time.  When a set is shot really well and is very creative and artistic, the love % tends to be low and the set doesn't get purchased.

Apr 22 13 12:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 27,667
Dearborn, Michigan, US


John Jebbia wrote:

This is so true. Through my stores (not zivity) I make significantly more money from under/overexposed, grainy, shitty color cast, poor composition nude photos than I do stuff that's technically correct.

Interesting!

Apr 22 13 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 27,667
Dearborn, Michigan, US


John Jebbia wrote:

My mantra with the stuff I'm selling is to intentionally make it look like her boyfriend shot it.

I'm also noticing that I make more money from mediocre looking girls than I do super hot ones.

More interesting!!   smile

Apr 22 13 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
that logic doesnt work.  if you shoot an image as part of a zivity set you cant turn around and use it elsewhere.  They do demand exclusivity for those images.

I think you're thinking of SG.

Either you don't shoot for Zivity or they've changed their T&Cs since I last did so about a year ago.

Personally, I only do it as a favour to models I want to test with who also happen to be on Zivity - as yet, I haven't given Zivity my payment details to receive any of the massive $15.26 royalties they probably owe me big_smile



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Apr 22 13 01:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JaneyGarnet
Posts: 85
Portland, Oregon, US


I just went back and looked at the casting notice, and it specifically said TF.
Apr 22 13 02:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
James Ogilvie
Posts: 6,643
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Sounds to me like this Zivity thing isn't worth bothering with.  smile
Apr 22 13 02:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,321
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


JaneyGarnet wrote:
I just went back and looked at the casting notice, and it specifically said TF.

was it clear you were actually replying to her casting, or did you just send a "Id like to shoot you" message?

Is the casting current?

Do you actually have a zivity account?

Apr 22 13 02:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,321
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
I think you're thinking of SG.

Either you don't shoot for Zivity or they've changed their T

Apr 22 13 02:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,533
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:

I think you're thinking of SG.

Either you don't shoot for Zivity or they've changed their T&Cs since I last did so about a year ago.

Personally, I only do it as a favour to models I want to test with who also happen to be on Zivity - as yet, I haven't given Zivity my payment details to receive any of the massive $15.26 royalties they probably owe me big_smile



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

lol dont insult me. Id never shoot for SG.  you cannot use zivity content elsewhere. its been the case for ever. Think about it. who would pay to see stuff they could see for free?  if its part of the uploaded set, its theirs. and you get your beer and pizza money direct to your paypal. no more embarrassing checks for $9.94 to cash anymore.

Apr 22 13 02:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JaneyGarnet
Posts: 85
Portland, Oregon, US


Laura UnBound wrote:

was it clear you were actually replying to her casting, or did you just send a "Id like to shoot you" message?

Is the casting current?

Do you actually have a zivity account?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Apr 22 13 02:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,533
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Laura UnBound wrote:

Zivity doesnt require exclusive content. A lot of SG sets wind up on zivity if theyre not bought and the restriction runs out on them. Ive got zivity photos posted all over the damn place.

after the 2 years runs out or before?

Apr 22 13 03:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,321
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
after the 2 years runs out or before?

The moment one of my sets goes live on zivity, I post a photo or two that are part of that set on Tumblr, FB, Twitter, dA, anywhere I want to drum up views. There is nothing in the Zivity paperwork that says you cant use YOUR zivity sets anywhere else you wish, including other paysites. You dont transfer copyright, zivity the company buys nothing from you, fans merely donate (vote) money to you. The only thing you grant zivity is the right to use your photos in their own promo material (banners, ads, icons, articles, etc)

Its not smart to post the entire set anywhere else, because then youre giving it away for free, but its wise to post one or two "teaser" shots and then direct viewers to zivity to see the rest.


SG sets are submitted to be BOUGHT by SG, if they dont buy it, if it doesnt go "live" in however many days your set sits in a queue...you can take that set back and submit it anywhere else you want. There are an assload of SG girls who also use zivity and cross-post their photos.


Edit: I have my photographer agreement in my lap right now. There are two different sections regarding image submission.

SETS are not exclusive and zivity does not own them. You license them to zivity for two years. You can elect to remove them after two years, or theyll automatically renew.

There is a second section regarding ADDITIONAL images submitted to zivity (i.e.: if they run a "we need a new banner" contest, etc) wherein it says that if they accept your image(s) then they will be referred to as a "zivity image".

Still, nowhere does it require exclusive content or claim actual transferred ownership of the images.

Apr 22 13 04:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,321
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


JaneyGarnet wrote:
Yes, yes, and yes.

-shrug- so shes nuts. it happens.

Probably works for her though.

Apr 22 13 04:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
CSDewitt Photography
Posts: 22
Atlanta, Georgia, US


ontherocks wrote:
i've never paid a zivity llama. to me that's not the nature of zivity. it's a collaboration and both the photographer take the risk of not knowing if they will get any votes at all.

for that llama maybe you could have said "i'll pay you exactly what i earn from your sets". if she's a top 10 llama maybe she can pull in several hundred votes. but even if she gets zero votes you aren't out of pocket on the shoot.

if someone is brand-new to zivity and needs a llama to get their account established (and they can't get a llama on trade) then that's where maybe paying could make sense.

or if someone is already paying the llama then maybe they can throw up a zivity set based on that shoot to see what happens (assuming the llama is willing).

1

Apr 22 13 04:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
You cannot use zivity content elsewhere.

You have no idea what you're talking about so why are you embarrassing yourself by continuing to post in this thread?

It is also against forum rules to post incorrect information.



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Apr 22 13 04:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Laura UnBound wrote:
Zivity doesnt require exclusive content.

That's what I said. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? big_smile




Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Apr 22 13 04:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,321
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:

That's what I said. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? big_smile




Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

agreeing, of course. tongue

Apr 22 13 05:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Keith Allen Phillips
Posts: 3,485
Sacramento, California, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
lol dont insult me. Id never shoot for SG.  you cannot use zivity content elsewhere. its been the case for ever. Think about it. who would pay to see stuff they could see for free?  if its part of the uploaded set, its theirs. and you get your beer and pizza money direct to your paypal. no more embarrassing checks for $9.94 to cash anymore.

You have no idea what you're talking about.
I've got a ton of stuff on Zivity that I most definitely would NOT have posted there if there were any restrictions on what else I could do with it. (ETA: except those restrictions Mariah just mentioned below. It's been a long time since I posted a set so those must be something fairly new. Still not a problem though. They wouldn't stop me from doing exactly what I normally do.)

Apr 22 13 05:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

lol dont insult me. Id never shoot for SG.  you cannot use zivity content elsewhere. its been the case for ever. Think about it. who would pay to see stuff they could see for free?  if its part of the uploaded set, its theirs. and you get your beer and pizza money direct to your paypal. no more embarrassing checks for $9.94 to cash anymore.

You're wrong.

Zivity only has 90 days exclusivity on full sets.
They DO allow up to 3 images of each set to be used as advertising.
After the 90 days you are free to redistribute and even SELL the images anywhere else.

Apr 22 13 05:11 pm  Link  Quote 
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