Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Cherrystone wrote:
Your only fault was not walking immediately.
"I don't get MUA/hair on Mondays" is a crock of shit. It's somewhere between bizarre and absurd. But it's also something that was at least as important to mention as what specific attire he wanted. Especially since he apparently promised MUA and hair, and scheduled the shoot on a Monday.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Personally, I think "internet" and "drama" together is an oxymoron. But anyway...
To clarify, the reason why I asked about this was because the photographer was pretty convinced that this whole thing was my fault. Since it's a modeling issue, MM seems like an appropriate place to ask if it was and find out why. Oxymoron?
Photographer
Flex Photography
Posts: 6470
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada
AaronPawlak wrote:
You could (or should) have asked that he pay for your time that he wasted.
As far as I can see, he still owes you the 20/hr, for whatever number of hours it was to be. You showed up and ready to work. Sounds like, with another model coming at 10:30, he only expected to pay $30 for an hour and a half.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Hector Pachas wrote:
You should get in the habit of have either a contract or release that specifies all those details, and have it signed before you even start shooting, it's just a good business practice.
Good luck, Yeah, that'll work.
Photographer
Jude S-R Photography
Posts: 33
Syracuse, Indiana, US
Art of the nude wrote:
Oxymoron? Mike, she answered this on the first page. 
Photographer
eybdoog
Posts: 2647
New York, New York, US
I agree that you were in the right also. It is the photographers job to have all details for the shoot laid out and planned. Yes, there are some shoots where people will just bring a ton of clothes and shoot until they get something good, but if he wanted something very specific, it is his responsibility to clarify and communicate this. Also, his lack of respect for you stating your rates for nudes is very questionable. If he wanted nudes, he should have said so from the get go and that is the time to talk about rates.... NOT when you get into the studio and he can't make up his mind on wardrobe because of lack of communication. You did the best you could under the circumstances and kudos to you for standing up for yourself.
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 18832
Albany, New York, US
Gary Melton wrote:
Telling you that there will be a MUA, then not having one and just blowing it off as no big deal...not cool, very unprofessional and simply dishonest. You cannot always control what someone else does.
Sometimes despite ones best efforts, shit happens.
Gary Melton wrote:
Booking you for a clothed shoot at one rate, then telling you that it will be a nude shoot instead, and at the same rate...not cool, very unprofessional and simply dishonest. You (or the llama) has never been inspired to go off-script? I pity you. Some of my best stuff has happened that way.
I was always taught that you can ask anything you want, it is up to the other party to accept, reject, or make a counter-proposal.
Gary Melton wrote:
When you run into these kinds of situations, there's really no point in remaining. If these are his opening games...what can you expect next? It sucks that there are guys like this out there, but unfortunately, all you can do is leave immediately and suck it up. Why is it always the "shifty" photographer's fault?
I sympathize with the llama. But should she not simply chalk it up as a learning experience
Photographer
Marin Photo NYC
Posts: 7348
New York, New York, US
You should have left sooner. Sounds like he was toying with you.
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3971
Seattle, Washington, US
As soon as you know that you're being jerked around, lied to, and the person in question has no intention of following through with their agreement, you leave, and don't feel the least bit bad about it.
Sounds like the photographer planned on trying to get you to do nudes for your clothed rate from the beginning.....but he could have been a little smarter about it, what lame excuses. Changing plans can be okay, but if he decided he wanted to shoot nudes, the agreement would have needed to be changed, and he would have needed to to compensate you accordingly(pay your nude rates)-not make excuses why he wouldn't, and blame it on you.
I would have been okay with the MUA not being there, and even the other model (if the photographer's paying, I figure they have the right to change plans that affect their own images). The fact that he tried to get you to do nudes when it was never discussed, and for your clothed rate- that would have been the deal-breaker for me.
Photographer
Solas
Posts: 10390
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Wrong? Right? Whatever, it's done now..learn from it and know better for next time. For the immediate future; Stop doing low-ball work, sell yourself ...should've deleted the message as soon as $20/hr came up.
Photographer
Lost Coast Photo
Posts: 2691
Ferndale, California, US
If I take what you're saying at face value (there are two sides to every story and we're only hearing one of them), then it appears he did a bait and switch on you which at best is poor communication and at worst is consciously manipulative.
So let's take it outside of the specific situation and I'll make a more generic statement: If a photographer asks for something, or gives a very ambiguous description of what he/she expects from a model, and then that photographer asks for something clearly different than what was expressed in the original discussion... I'd call that a brand new negotiation. Things only need to move forward if both parties agree to the new terms. I think the model would be within her rights to decline something beyond the original agreement.
Photographer
kl-photographics
Posts: 296
Lemgo, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
honestly i dont know any model that is realy leaving the house with any make up in her bag, but anyway u were not supoused to bring that with u. he told that is all provided by him, so it's his god damn problem. n if he isnt specific in the clothes its also his problem. he paying, so hes ordering. u r also not calling to pizza hut n let the delivery guy choose ur pizza. hes just an stupid idiot who wanted to do nudes for a ridicious price. just dont bother anymore
Photographer
Expression Unlimited
Posts: 1408
Oceanside, California, US
Art of the nude wrote:
"I don't get MUA/hair on Mondays" is a crock of shit...
It's somewhere between bizarre and absurd. But it's also something that was at least as important to mention as what specific attire he wanted. Especially since he apparently promised MUA and hair, and scheduled the shoot on a Monday. I have no problem taking it that his MUA is not available on Mondays and thus that they probably changed the shoot from a previous date to a Monday, without him telling her that, or she missed that...
Mix ups do happen!
People also imagine things.
Case in point:
I scheduled a 4 hour $700 shoot
for 8 individuals recently - 30 mins each.
8 edits included.
I HAD agreed all the best images in private LR gallery would be of a useable size over 1000.
Then I had changed it and wrote clearly, that the shots to select from would not be included as usable files, that they would be proofs, only 450 size, for purchase only . . . .
Because she talked me down to $300 and changed the whole shoot to shooting 12, traveling, doing it in the wrong place / multiple locations, shooting team shots of more than 10 people, as well as shooting DESIGNER wear (that I had spelled out would always have to be a separate arrangement with a designer)
Still she's invented a situation expecting all the images from the shoot at full size on a ''CD'' for FREE
(despite beng told I have never done a CD but will do so, for her, no extra charge of all the TWELVE edited images when selected).
I even brought in a second photographer who's AWESOME and came FREE so that we would still get the people all done in 2 hours she asked for.
And she imagines SHE's been shafted!
Just goes to show.
BTW I give a lot of extras AFTER the ordering, to pleasantly surprise my clients.
Since she's stomped off thinking she's been taken advantage of without ordering - I don't even know what to do!
And I wrote it ALL down.
It's unpleasant to be forced to refer people to the contract or emails but the only way to make it clear sometimes.
Model
Rachel in GR
Posts: 1656
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Cherrystone wrote:
Your only fault was not walking immediately.
"I don't get MUA/hair on Mondays" is a crock of shit. This. I'd have walked off set immediately in this case. (I can do my own hair and makeup, and usually do, but don't bait-switch me and expect me to roll over and play dead.)
Model
Rachel in GR
Posts: 1656
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Thank you for your replies.
I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case? I always bring a small bag of makeup and some hair products that will create a versatile-enough "shoot look" when I'm told MUAH will be provided. You never know.
Photographer
Outa the Box
Posts: 25
Perth, Western Australia, Australia
dudes a douche. shame people feel they have to resort to such levels or at least think so levels are ok
Photographer
Valenten Photography
Posts: 265
Conflans-Sainte-Honorine, Île-de-France, France
Yeah, I think you were totally right. Indeed you might have asked him first what clothes to bring, but for the rest you're 100% right in my opinion. Good luck with the next shootings ^^ Valenten http://www.valentenphotography.com
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
ChiMo wrote:
Assuming the facts are as stated, the guy sounds like a dipshit. +1 ^
My initial reaction as well...
Model
shibaswindler
Posts: 205
Milton Keynes, England, United Kingdom
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Thank you for your replies.
I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case? Always! That's what I do 
And it wasn't your fault at all x
Photographer
Gary Melton
Posts: 6680
Dallas, Texas, US
Farenell Photography wrote:
You cannot always control what someone else does.
Sometimes despite ones best efforts, shit happens. Yes - like telling the llama there will be a MUA, then when she gets there, saying that he never hires MUA's on Mondays (after scheduling the shoot for a Monday).
Farenell Photography wrote:
You (or the llama) has never been inspired to go off-script? I pity you. Some of my best stuff has happened that way.
I was always taught that you can ask anything you want, it is up to the other party to accept, reject, or make a counter-proposal. Absolutely I've gone off-script before...but if I schedule a clothed shoot, then want to shoot nudes...I will pay the llama's fee differential. I won't try to manipulate her into doing it for the same rate as clothed (and sorry...but the whole "stripper rates" argument is ludicrous).
Farenell Photography wrote:
Why is it always the "shifty" photographer's fault?
I sympathize with the llama. But should she not simply chalk it up as a learning experience
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 953
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US
Something I wanted to bring up...
A lot of people on here are quick to call the photographer in this case "douchey", "manipulative", and "shifty", just to name a few.
While this could have been the case (after all, I'm not a mind reader and don't *really* know what his intentions were) I got the feeling when I was there that he meant well, but was kind of airheaded. He mentioned at one point when I was going over the details of the shoot that he sends out the same message that he copies and pastes to all models that he contacts, and because he contacts so many he can't always keep track of them and the specifics to the shoot.
Of course if he uses the same message of "hair/MUA provided, $20/hr, clothed editorial" you'd think he'd remember those details better... but I digress.
He openly admitted to often biting off more than he could chew and mixing up people a lot. Again, I obviously don't know how honest he was being, but he didn't give off a manipulative kind of vibe, though he was very defensive of his shooting practices to the point of trying to discredit me as a model.
Overall, we left the shoot on friendly terms. We shook hands and smiled and I told him "I'm sorry this didn't work out".
Photographer
Kezins Photography
Posts: 1389
Beckley, West Virginia, US
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Something I wanted to bring up...
A lot of people on here are quick to call the photographer in this case "douchey", "manipulative", and "shifty", just to name a few.
While this could have been the case (after all, I'm not a mind reader and don't *really* know what his intentions were) I got the feeling when I was there that he meant well, but was kind of airheaded. He mentioned at one point when I was going over the details of the shoot that he sends out the same message that he copies and pastes to all models that he contacts, and because he contacts so many he can't always keep track of them and the specifics to the shoot.
Of course if he uses the same message of "hair/MUA provided, $20/hr, clothed editorial" you'd think he'd remember those details better... but I digress.
He openly admitted to often biting off more than he could chew and mixing up people a lot. Again, I obviously don't know how honest he was being, but he didn't give off a manipulative kind of vibe, though he was very defensive of his shooting practices to the point of trying to discredit me as a model.
Overall, we left the shoot on friendly terms. We shook hands and smiled and I told him "I'm sorry this didn't work out". It's entirely possible he wasn't malicious and just has a flighty head, but that's part of photography he'll need to work on. While photography is lots of fun, it's also a business for many people and people expect a certain level of professionalism.
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 18832
Albany, New York, US
Gary Melton wrote:
Absolutely I've gone off-script before...but if I schedule a clothed shoot, then want to shoot nudes...I will pay the model's fee differential. I won't try to manipulate her into doing it for the same rate as clothed (and sorry...but the whole "stripper rates" argument is ludicrous). That's YOUR business practice. Not everyone works that way.
If I have an idea, ANY idea, & any point in time I see fit. It doesn't matter if it was a clothed shoot or a nude shoot or something in between. It is up to the model to accept, reject, or make a counter-proposal. Because I've OFTEN had clothed-only shoots where I've pitched one of those crazy-ass ideas & the model has not only gone for it but back for future shoots because (to use their words) I "didn't treat them like a piece of meat like so many others have."
A secondary reason being is that I'm a believer that lightning never strikes twice. If I don't at least ask, the person's answer will ALWAYS be a "no." & when that person does reject my idea, I move on. With being a witness, that's the sense I got in the OP's situation.
Gary Melton wrote:
Yes, it appears that the model here may not have done enough due diligence to learn that the guy was dishonest and manipulative. It appears that she may not have been 100% faultless in this (the wardrobe), but since he had assured her that there would be a MUA - her not bringing makeup is not HER fault (though I will admit that makeup is something that a model should probably bring to every shoot, just to be on the safe side). The info may be buried within this thread but from the OP's original post, its an entirely fair question to ask.
No, having one do their due diligence won't 100% entirely weed out the skeezebags (no matter which side of the camera is on), nor do I think it was ever meant to. But had she done that (which, again, is not to say she didn't...we just don't know that), she might have gotten a clue that this guy was as air-headed as he seems.
Gary Melton wrote:
Guys like this make the rest of us look bad, so I honestly don't understand why you would defend his behavior... I'm "defending" this guy because I've had shoots where (admittedly) the communication could have been a lot better on everyone's part. This is how I read, & still do, the OP's situation. Sometimes shit happens.
I'm "defending" this guy because he's not here to give his side of the story. Maybe he is as much of a dolt as he seems, maybe he isn't. But I've only got the model's interpretation of the events.
I'm "defending" this guy because I've been in situations where the model will say one thing at a shoot, in how much she enjoyed herself, how much respectful I was, how well she liked what I delivered to them afterwards. Only to do a complete 180 degrees not because they didn't like the product that was delivered but because she didn't get enough of them (not my problem, I delivered what I said I was going to deliver).
I'm "defending" this guy because from my own personal experience, some model who I have never COMMUNICATED WITH, let alone worked with, was saying how much of a shit-bag & creep I was. When I discovered & confronted her, she said she was just repeating what another model said (the aforementioned one that didn't get enough pictures) & wanted to protect others from that happening.
I'm "defending" this guy because I'm a believer in trying (& often failing) to be a constructive voice. We can't offer solutions to this photographer's problem, he's not here & likely isn't going to be because that would "out" him & that would be against MM rules. What we can offer are solutions for the model in ways she can hopefully avoid something like this again.
Photographer
KonstantKarma
Posts: 2513
Campobello, South Carolina, US
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Thank you for your replies.
I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case? A little late to this party, but yeah, as a professional model you should always be over-prepared versus under-prepared.
Same with a photographer. Suppose we're meeting outdoors and having to bring stuff, we may not need a reflector or backup camera or that roll of film, but it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
Makeup Artist
Cynna Stylz MUA
Posts: 217
New York, New York, US
I saw this video years ago. It is part of our ( we as women) have to deal with things as we go on with our daily lives. Although this is about dating, It may be the smart way of how to deal with some of the people you come across. Just go with your guts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF8gGqbe0uU You did the right thing. In fact in NYC ( and anywhere else) he is scum. NEVER drop your clothes if you didn't agree to. Don't feel bad for sticking to your guns Protect yourself any way you can for right now and 100 years from now. My best to you....I'm in NYC too Cyn
Photographer
alessandro2009
Posts: 8091
Florence, Toscana, Italy
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Am I at fault here? Or was I in the right in walking out? Based on what you said, you was right.
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
just ignore him and give a bad reference +1
when asked.
Artist/Painter
Art of Vincent Wolff
Posts: 2925
Wheaton, Illinois, US
Chain Reaction wrote:
Sounds like bait and switch. I don't blame you for walking. I agree.....
Photographer
Matt Knowles
Posts: 3592
Ferndale, California, US
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
As a general rule, I do not like surprises when I'm working. Just quoting this because of the other thread. How ironic.
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 953
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US
Matt Knowles wrote:
Just quoting this because of the other thread. How ironic. Ironic how?
If you want to make a reply post to me that concerns the other thread, I suggest that you do so in the other thread. It gets your point across much more clearly, and is more practical than your chosen method of dancing around your point with no solid direction.
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