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first12
Photographer
Dean Johnson Photo
Posts: 56,031
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Moderator Note!
Photographers, please stop hijacking this thread.

Thanks
Apr 29 13 05:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
binaryian
Posts: 18
København, Hovedstaden, Denmark


In Balance Photography wrote:
By publishing intermediate results (as well as the commenting here) are you concerned that independent of actual effect that it would provide more data for those that question the objectivity of study?

Again, as previously mentioned: the study is actually participant-observation and data collection for the bulk of it is over (ie. all my modeling work), so this survey is just part of a small chapter. You can read more about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participant_observation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grounded_theory

Apr 29 13 05:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,365
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


DayneH wrote:
rather than attempting to give me an education in my own field in a model forum.

I don't believe statistical research is your field.  Anyone with a background in surveys or research would have addressed the issues with your survey I previously mentioned.

I'm not trying to hijack anything. You stated you hope this survey will let you known about the harm that comes to models.  That is a good intention,  but your survey will not give you any objective information in that regard, and to report that it does is a great disservice to those who do seek objective information regarding the risk models face.

Had you said nothing about your objectives, I would not have said anything here, but you stated you hope this will prove something about the harm models face.(clearly from photographers)  By stating your objectives, you open the door to a discussion about whether or not your survey actually measures those objectives, and since it clearly implicates photographers, it would be incredibly biased to not let photographers point out the biases or other problems with your survey.

I would love to see the results of a good, objective survey about the frequency and severity of harm that actually comes to models during shoots, as well as the same regarding any harassment, etc.   However, your survey is not that.  By claiming you will draw conclusions about the harm coming to models from this survey, you invite criticism of whether or not your survey is biased or actually measures the results you state you will report.  I feel it would be a disservice to this community recognize the bias inherent in your methodology and not point it out.

Again, you specifically stated what you hope this survey will show you.  If you state that, you should be prepared to hear how your survey does not measure that which you hope to report.

I do not claim to be an expert in statistical research.  However, for the past 25 years I have been very involved in risk management and measuring the risks people face with various activities.  You claim this if your field, but I'm sorry, your survey is the worst I've ever seen a measuring such risks.

Apr 29 13 07:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
salvatori.
Posts: 3,714
State College, Pennsylvania, US


Dean Soapbox Killer Photo wrote:
Photographers, please stop hijacking this thread.

Thanks

Dean,

Did you read the questions? Many of them are directed at how models are made to feel pressured, coerced, etc., by photographers.

Many of the people reading and replying to the OP (myself included) question the integrity and agenda of the survey.

Since the OP has said that her interest is in seeing how she can help fewer models 'get hurt' (her words), presumably by photographers, I don't see why we can't react and speak out.

I thought one of the rules around these fora was that all the threads were open to everyone. If you want to brig someone for threadjacking, that's your right, but IMHO, that isn't happening here.

Again, IMHO

Apr 29 13 07:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
binaryian
Posts: 18
København, Hovedstaden, Denmark


I appreciate the concern again, but nowhere in there does it say "photographer"; it says employer. I think you are projecting.

As per other objections, it's fine that some random guy on the internet doubts I am competent at my job, but if you would care to read again that it's a preliminary 10-question inquiry, and also participant-observation, that would be great. The stats derived will be presented as self-reports, but the data is mostly in the descriptive/interview portions, as it is the culture that is interesting in a participant-observation project. Also, you are looking at one question, whereas the other questions are "how safe do you feel at work." Clearly that one question isn't the bulk of it.

I am really only interested in addressing concerns/questions models may have from this point, as this is a model forum.
Apr 30 13 04:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
salvatori.
Posts: 3,714
State College, Pennsylvania, US


DayneH wrote:
I appreciate the concern again, but nowhere in there does it say "photographer"; it says employer. I think you are projecting.

As per other objections, it's fine that some random guy on the internet doubts I am competent at my job, but if you would care to read again that it's a preliminary 10-question inquiry, and also participant-observation, that would be great. The stats derived will be presented as self-reports, but the data is mostly in the descriptive/interview portions, as it is the culture that is interesting in a participant-observation project. Also, you are looking at one question, whereas the other questions are "how safe do you feel at work." Clearly that one question isn't the bulk of it.

I am really only interested in addressing concerns/questions models may have from this point, as this is a model forum.

I am not projecting. I am a photographer. This is a photographer/model site. I am participating in the context that is germane to the situation.

Yes, this is the model's forum, but unless you recently purchased the site from Censoring Assholes, I will participate in it as I desire. You are free to either ignore my replies or turn to PMs to individual models to gain your insights.

Apr 30 13 05:46 am  Link  Quote 
Model
binaryian
Posts: 18
København, Hovedstaden, Denmark


Ok. Well I am still waiting for any one of these brilliant armchair researchers and statisticians to realise I have a database with the email addresses of any models who have reported any of these conditions, and I can follow up with them with further targeted surveys about things like frequency and severity because this initial probe garnered a respectable sample size.

That would be what "preliminary" means. Please consider either reading my previous comments, or the links provided to the basic methodology.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I do not claim to be an expert in statistical research.  However, for the past 25 years I have been very involved in risk management and measuring the risks people face with various activities.  You claim this if your field, but I'm sorry, your survey is the worst I've ever seen a measuring such risks.

I'm not in risk assessment. I work in a labour/public health research think tank. My education is in social science. This is a preliminary survey on self-reports, with qualitative data.

Apr 30 13 06:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
salvatori.
Posts: 3,714
State College, Pennsylvania, US


DayneH wrote:
I appreciate the concern again, but nowhere in there does it say "photographer"; it says employer. I think you are projecting.

I re-read the survey and now have decided to call bullshit and call this survey even more phoney that I thought originally.

You say 'employer' and claim I am projecting by claiming 'photographer.'

Yet, the survey has words like 'model' 'photographer' 'photography studio' and you ask questions directed at genres of modeling, for God's sake.

You are either delusional or completely and blatantly misleading everyone on your intentions.

I know I am risking the brig, but you are so ridiculously insulting with the survey and your replies here; and for some un-Godly reason, you have the Mods and this site on your side.

I can't possibly be the only one that feels this way about your position. I'm so totally baffled; you can feel confident I will most likely not say a whole lot more, out of a respect for my own sanity.

O_o

Apr 30 13 06:27 am  Link  Quote 
Model
KathTea Katastrophy
Posts: 76
Kuala Lumpur, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia


salvatori. wrote:

I re-read the survey and now have decided to call bullshit and call this survey even more phoney that I thought originally.

You say 'employer' and claim I am projecting by claiming 'photographer.'

Yet, the survey has words like 'model' 'photographer' 'photography studio' and you ask questions directed at genres of modeling, for God's sake.

You are either delusional or completely and blatantly misleading everyone on your intentions.

I know I am risking the brig, but you are so ridiculously insulting with the survey and your replies here; and for some un-Godly reason, you have the Mods and this site on your side.

I can't possibly be the only one that feels this way about your position. I'm so totally baffled; you can feel confident I will most likely not say a whole lot more, out of a respect for my own sanity.

O_o

What part of DON'T hijack the thread do you not understand?

May 01 13 04:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


salvatori. wrote:

OP,

Surely you understand that this statement alone shows that there is certainly bias and an agenda in your survey, don't you?

There's an "agenda" behind everything.  People aren't generally in the habit of doing things for no reason.  There's an "agenda" behind your comment.  There's an "agenda" behind mine.  Sorry, but I just hate when people throw the word "agenda" around to imply some sort of sinister motive.

And the only real bias in this is that models who have experienced some type of abuse are more likely to take the survey than those who have not.  And that bias isn't contained in the survey itself, but the manner in which it is being presented.  This bias is present any time you ask a group of people to choose to take a survey, regardless of the content or motive of the survey.  The only way to remove that bias is to ask people individually to take the survey; and I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect the OP to go around messaging models on MM randomly to take the survey.

May 01 13 06:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
neeeep
Posts: 238
Los Angeles, California, US


DayneH wrote:

As I posted above, I am doing a series here with informal reports on progress, and also just article drafts/sketches.
http://insidermodel.wordpress.com/

After that it's material for a thesis, so I will put a link up to the full published study on the blog once it's properly vetted.

thank you so much.

May 01 13 10:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C
Posts: 7,884
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


salvatori. wrote:
So you admit there is no such thing as accurate, random or unbiased research, but are doing a survey anyway. Got it.

O_o

And this line cracks me up: 'If models haven't experienced any of these negative things, they skip the question...'

Why don't you just go to the local Woman's Center and be done with it? You agenda is pretty clear (considering you aren't even interested in hearing from people who haven't had negative experiences), so I'll save you the trouble...

Yes, most all male photographers buy a shitload of expensive equipment, train for years at their craft, all to see lady bits and fondle women.

I think the questions reasonable.
If the majority of models haven't experienced harrasment then the sample will reflect that and give her a percentage. It is similar to others I have seen in a variety of working environments.

Women can get harassment in many working environments and I think it interesting that someone is attempting to see if it is common for models by gaining some actual data. If the answer is a low percentage compared to other studies she can cite in other working environments then that will add credibility to the idea for example that models don't require escorts.

It is surely better than heresay and anecdote and escort threads which is all we normally see on MM which may give many models a faulty sense of insecurity. Let's see some data.

May 02 13 04:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,365
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


deleted - I agree - let it run it's course.  Any criticisms regarding the conclusions drawn from the data collected can be addressed at that time.
May 02 13 09:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Vindictive Images
Posts: 373
Houston, Texas, US


DayneH wrote:
Ok. Well I am still waiting for any one of these brilliant armchair researchers and statisticians

I am actually a social science researcher, and I am interested in your findings once they are published. I presume that your survey has already been vetted by an IRB?

In Balance Photography wrote:
This study needs to run its course - if there are problems with the research I am sure they will come up during the peer review process.

Bingo. I am amused by the people who feel this is an attack on their profession though.

May 02 13 09:22 am  Link  Quote 
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