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Model
Tiffany Bond
Posts: 76
West Jordan, Utah, US


Have you ever had a photo shoot with a more or less amateur photographer that used possibly one of the worst pictures of you in the entire reel to put on his/her public profile? I'm talking the lighting is bad, the angle is unflattering, the focus is off... just... nothing good could come of this photo.

Do you say anything? Is it rude? I wonder if photographers ever have the opposite problem. Then again, they usually hold the reins as far as what pictures they edit/keep and which ones they don't. So if they don't like a photo, they have control over getting rid of it.

Just wondering if this is common, or if I'm just being overly-self-critical?
Apr 24 13 10:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Aimee LaSourire
Posts: 41
Heilbronn, Baden-W├╝rttemberg, Germany


Hi,
yes I had a similar experience, photographer wasnt amateur but not super experienced. And I knew the photographer would put it on because we flipped through the pictures after the shoot together and did the
like=keep
nope=delete
thing and we had a different opinion on almost every picture!

After that I had some conversations with other photographers and we figured it might be different views of male/female.

I think that if you are worried that this could affect your appearance on mm I would talk to the photographer and maybe suggest another pic that you like more or ask him why he chose that particular one. Or just tell him that you dont like yourself on it, but better on another one. Theres always a non rude way to tell people!

Hope I could help.

All the best,
Aimee
Apr 24 13 10:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Aimee LaSourire
Posts: 41
Heilbronn, Baden-W├╝rttemberg, Germany


Ps love your unique look, great port!
Apr 24 13 10:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Scarlett de la Calle
Posts: 414
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


Yes and I am credited under them. I would ask the photographer to remove your credit! That's what I was going to do when I realised hmm. Mind you i was a very amateur model as well as the photographer being amateur back then too
Apr 24 13 10:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
kl-photographics
Posts: 296
Lemgo, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


men n  women for sure have a different way to see pictures, i always discuss pics with my wife. she chooses the hell different pics from a shot then me. same as doing pics from her. it always ends in arguing.
Apr 24 13 10:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Charlie-CNP
Posts: 2,623
New York, New York, US


depends on what is agreed to at the beginning of the shoot. Opinions on photographs are just as subjective as opinions of ice cream flavors. What you see as "the worst photograph ever", he could see as the best he might have ever shot. That said, I honestly go meh to about 95% of what I see (takes a lot to wow me), but it doesn't make other peoples art any less valuable, or their photographs the worst photographs ever. It is simply my opinion. As you go on shooting as well, there will be many shoots where the teams all do not agree on a singular image as "the one". It is simply a matter of plugging on and creating more new work. good luck
Apr 24 13 10:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Light and Lens Studio
Posts: 1,343
Sisters, Oregon, US


Tiffany Bond wrote:
Have you ever had a photo shoot with a more or less amateur photographer that used possibly one of the worst pictures of you in the entire reel to put on his/her public profile? I'm talking the lighting is bad, the angle is unflattering, the focus is off... just... nothing good could come of this photo.

Do you say anything? Is it rude? I wonder if photographers ever have the opposite problem. Then again, they usually hold the reins as far as what pictures they edit/keep and which ones they don't. So if they don't like a photo, they have control over getting rid of it.

Just wondering if this is common, or if I'm just being overly-self-critical?

Well, I'm not a model, but I have dealt with a lot of models and looked at hundreds and hundreds more portfolios.  There is an old saying: "If only we could see ourselves as others see us".   

Your feelings about the referenced photo are obviously subjective.  Someone else might look at the photo and think it was lovely.  I have seen lots and lots of ports where models have posted terrible images of themselves in their portfolios and not infrequently have selected their worst image for their avatar. 

The point of all this is that why don't you either post the pic here in the forum or have a trusted friend look at it and see if the friend or the forum participants agree with your assessment.  Out of focus, poorly lit, poorly posed photographs are pretty commonly found here in ports.  Not my style, definitely, but some folks seem to like them.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to approach the photographer in a non-confrontational way and explain your discomfort with the photo he is displaying.  You might even suggest a photo off of the reel that you particularly do like.

Best of luck.

Apr 24 13 10:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,129
New York, New York, US


If he paid you, let it be. You took the chance to work with this person and well you got his money.

If it was trade then you should have said something when you first saw it. If you neglected to then you left the ball in his court.

An unflattering photo in a photographer's port has no effect on you. It may not get that person who sees it to your profile but it doesn't mean you suck....It means he does for making a bad choice....
Apr 24 13 10:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,259
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Marin Photography wrote:
If he paid you, let it be. You took the chance to work with this person and well you got his money.

If it was trade then you should have said something when you first saw it. If you neglected to then you left the ball in his court.

An unflattering photo in a photographer's port has no effect on you. It may not get that person who sees it to your profile but it doesn't mean you suck....It means he does for making a bad choice....

This very well could be the first time shes seeing it. We dont usually get to look through every single shot and approve it or delete it after a shoot, that would be ridiculous. We trust you guys to be able to determine good and bad shots...sometimes that trust turns out to be misplaced.


OP: You can say something if youd like. If you have no intentions of working with this guy again...no issue. If you would like to work with him again...be prepared not to if you think hes the type to throw a hissy fit.

Ultimately, there are going to be bad shots of you on the internet somewhere, no matter what. You could ask and he could refuse and youd still be stuck with it. Its easier to just accept and move on. Hopefully he'll do another shoot soon and replace it with something not of you.

Apr 24 13 11:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Outa the Box
Posts: 24
Perth, Western Australia, Australia


art is a very personal and subjective thing, but by the sounds of it this dude may need to update is glasses prescription. just tell him how you feel... whats the worst that can happen
Apr 24 13 11:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,129
New York, New York, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
This very well could be the first time shes seeing it. We dont usually get to look through every single shot and approve it or delete it after a shoot, that would be ridiculous. We trust you guys to be able to determine good and bad shots...sometimes that trust turns out to be misplaced.


OP: You can say something if youd like. If you have no intentions of working with this guy again...no issue. If you would like to work with him again...be prepared not to if you think hes the type to throw a hissy fit.

Ultimately, there are going to be bad shots of you on the internet somewhere, no matter what. You could ask and he could refuse and youd still be stuck with it. Its easier to just accept and move on. Hopefully he'll do another shoot soon and replace it with something not of you.

Ridiculous? Depends on who you work with doesn't it? What's ridiculous is people who shoot thousands of photos like a machine gun and praying for a good shot. I don't do that and I stop after each set and let the model choose what she likes. Most models don't have thousands of poses so I don't get why people do that!

When it's a trade shoot we both have a say.  If she disapproves she has a chance to say something. Also, what's ridiculous is not asking to see them. We aren't all that controlling crazy types hahaha...If I am paying I don't bother doing that so it doesn't matter.

I only shoot about 20 shots per look or less!

Apr 24 13 11:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Tiffany Bond
Posts: 76
West Jordan, Utah, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
This very well could be the first time shes seeing it. We dont usually get to look through every single shot and approve it or delete it after a shoot, that would be ridiculous. We trust you guys to be able to determine good and bad shots...sometimes that trust turns out to be misplaced.

It was the first time I saw it. He showed me a small handful as we were taking them (most photographers do) but I didn't get to flip through the whole lot of them. I've had photographers take hundreds of shots in one session. I think trying to look through that many and actually take the time to assess them would be difficult.

I'm probably not going to say anything, because for all I know, it's just (as others have said) my taste preference versus his (and male vs female outlook) and it's not as bad as I think it is. I can only hope.

Don't get me wrong, he's a nice guy, and one or two of the photos were actually something I could use. I don't want you to think he's atrocious. As a general rule though, most of the photos were shot at strange angles (strange in a bad way, not in an artful way) so I would say that shooting with him was a very mixed experience for me.

Apr 24 13 11:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Expression Unlimited
Posts: 1,125
San Diego, California, US


Yes

And it sucks!

If you guys have a better one in the set that is similar you can always hint you'd prefer he use that instead ... but f you were paid you have no real say

Now I'm behind the camera and mentoring, I always give and encourage others to give the models power of veeto .., expecially TFCD but I can tell you
re  ''I wonder if photographers ever have the opposite problem''
YES!

Models  and clients consistently pick 'the worst in the reel' often if one is out of focus they love it being ''soft focus'' and if the shot is a dud with a bad background or shadow on the face of course they suddenly love their expression in it and see nothing else. Etc.

;-)

I guess that's what we get for showing everything.

But TFCD or a paying client they should get to see what was shot, I think. And get to choose the images they like. Good luck with your guy!
Apr 24 13 11:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,129
New York, New York, US


I wouldn't worry about it Tiffany. Before you know it he would have moved on and replaced it.

I think if you talk to him he will probably take it down. Suggest a replacement.
Apr 24 13 11:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,129
New York, New York, US


Expression Unlimited wrote:
Yes

And it sucks!

If you guys have a better one in the set that is similar you can always hint you'd prefer he use that instead ... but f you were paid you have no real say

Now I'm behind the camera and mentoring, I always give and encourage others to give the models power of veeto .., expecially TFCD but I can tell you
re  ''I wonder if photographers ever have the opposite problem''
YES!

Models  and clients consistently pick 'the worst in the reel' often if one is out of focus they love it being ''soft focus'' and if the shot is a dud with a bad background or shadow on the face of course they suddenly love their expression in it and see nothing else. Etc.

;-)

I guess that's what we get for showing everything.

But TFCD or a paying client they should get to see what was shot, I think. And get to choose the images they like. Good luck with your guy!

This is exactly why I shoot slow and take my time. I get to delete those soft focus ones! haha

Apr 24 13 11:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wolfy4u
Posts: 1,093
Grand Junction, Colorado, US


There are two types of terrible photos.

1. The photo is terrible but you can tell the model knows what she is doing, it
was just captured in a way that's not good.
2. The photo is shot is such a way that makes the model look terrible.

If your photo is in category one, don't worry about it. Everyone will know that you were doing your best.
The second category is a bigger problem, but keep in mind that if the photographer is not that good, he'll probably have few people viewing his portfolio.
Apr 24 13 11:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
T-D-L
Posts: 10,303
Los Angeles, California, US


Just ask that you not be credited.  What he/she uses for their book is up to them.  Just because you don't like it has nothing to do with whether or not they feel that's an image that is representative of the type of work they'd like to show.
Apr 24 13 11:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Philip from Scotland
Posts: 195
Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom


I get this as a photographer.  The model wants to look beautiful, but that isn't always how I want to photograph her.

I did a zombie picture, I know the model didn't like it, but I actually think it would have been a good addition to her portfolio, showing versatility in what she could portray.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid … =3&theater
Apr 24 13 11:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Designit - Edward Olson
Posts: 1,632
Eureka, California, US


I often cringe sigh when a model picks what I think are the "worst" of the best, but since I don't show them anything that I would hate for them to pick, it is okay.
Apr 24 13 11:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3,883
Seattle, Washington, US


Marin Photography wrote:
Ridiculous? Depends on who you work with doesn't it? What's ridiculous is people who shoot thousands of photos like a machine gun and praying for a good shot. I don't do that and I stop after each set and let the model choose what she likes. Most models don't have thousands of poses so I don't get why people do that!

When it's a trade shoot we both have a say.  If she disapproves she has a chance to say something. Also, what's ridiculous is not asking to see them. We aren't all that controlling crazy types hahaha...If I am paying I don't bother doing that so it doesn't matter.

I only shoot about 20 shots per look or less!

What's ridiculous is questioning (or putting down) the methods that other talented and successful photographers use to get their images.  I've shot with people who only got a few hundred images, and several who got 2000+. Amazing results can be achieved either way. A good image is a good image, and nobody cares how many frames it took to get there.

I've never sat down with a photographer and reviewed all the images from a shoot before I left.  I can't see that ever happening unless it was discussed and agreed upon in advance, and I suspect very few photographers would be willing to do it. I've never had anyone offer such a thing, and I consider many of the photographers I've worked with to be quite generous. In most situations, such a process would be time consuming, and not necessarily beneficial to either party.

To the OP: Yes, I've had the situation you described happen.  Ask nicely for him to take it down, or at the very least, not to credit you.  Don't question his taste, just let him know that you're not comfortable with how you look in the image, and you would be extremely appreciative if he was willing to consider choosing a different image to post.  The worst thing that could happen is that he'll say no, but it's definitely worth asking.

Apr 24 13 11:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


How much did you pay him?

You can only really expect editorial control if you're the client and this is part of the contract. Otherwise, you takes your chances....

As others have said, you could try asking very nicely if he would mind using a different shot - but be prepared for a refusal and possibly a hissy fit too. We photographers can be a touchy lot! big_smile




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com
Apr 25 13 12:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Paul Ferris
Posts: 3,504
New York, New York, US


A model will like pictures that show her features best.
A photographer will like photos that have good composition and lighting.
A MUA will like the photos where the make up looks good
A stylist will like the photo where the clothes are showcased well.

These are rarely all in the same photo.

Fact of life.
Apr 25 13 12:19 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Tiffany Bond
Posts: 76
West Jordan, Utah, US


Philip from Scotland wrote:
I get this as a photographer.  The model wants to look beautiful, but that isn't always how I want to photograph her.

Oh, I definitely understand modeling not always being about "pretty" if anyone loves rawness in an image as far as image and expression goes, it's me. That's definitely not the issue. As someone who loves editing, photography, and modeling (and has delved a little into all three) I feel like I hopefully know what to look for. It's always hardest in your own images though.

-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
How much did you pay him?

You can only really expect editorial control if you're the client and this is part of the contract. Otherwise, you takes your chances....

As others have said, you could try asking very nicely if he would mind using a different shot - but be prepared for a refusal and possibly a hissy fit too. We photographers can be a touchy lot! big_smile




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

See, and that's sort of why I'm holding my tongue. I feel like ultimately, it's art... and who am I to say what someone else's idea of art should be? If I were a photographer, and someone told me I had a terrible eye, I would be inwardly insulted. He has decent images in his port (which is why appearing to be in the weakest image in said portfolio might be offputting), and it was tradework, not paid. I keep trying to go back and look at it and change my mind about it or keep an open mind at least...

Apr 25 13 12:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


Yes it happens yet every one leaves comments that are positive and encouraging for them to continue to post such images on their ports.
Apr 25 13 12:24 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Corbeau Lis
Posts: 12
Eastbourne, England, United Kingdom


i think it has probably happened to everyone, one shoot in particular i had, i didn't see back of cam or unedited pics, then he started sending the worst photos i have ever seen in my life, and he posted them!

I asked him to take them down but he never did.

he must have sent 12 images so far and every single one of them went from email straight to my recycle bin, awful awful.
Apr 25 13 12:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Camabs
Posts: 323
Utrecht, Utrecht, Netherlands


Paul Ferris  wrote:
A model will like pictures that show her features best.
A photographer will like photos that have good composition and lighting.
A MUA will like the photos where the make up looks good
A stylist will like the photo where the clothes are showcased well.

These are rarely all in the same photo.

Fact of life.

A good photographer will know this and select photos of all 4 categories (assuming it's a trade shoot)

Apr 25 13 01:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Nico Simon Princely
Posts: 1,770
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


I had a model choose one of my worst shots of her. After that experience I started culling all bad shots out and only let them choose from what I think is the best representation of my work.

But I have seen a shot just like you describe on here as someone's avatar they were trading comments for. I could not believe it did not get deleted and they put it up!
Apr 25 13 01:56 am  Link  Quote 
Model
T A Y L O R
Posts: 2,977
Austin, Texas, US


At the end of the day, besides the good advice here, you can control which "credited" photos you show. You can also opt out of showing your credited images.
Apr 25 13 02:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GNapp Studios
Posts: 6,201
Somerville, New Jersey, US


I wouldn't worry about it.

I think most photographers and clients will select you based on YOUR portfolio, not the photographers.
Apr 25 13 02:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tina Sun
Posts: 35
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


I think it's always different how you see yourself and how someone else sees you - but as a photographer i'd definitely want a model I worked with to let me know if they are unhappy with the work! So I dont' think it's rude at all, just let them know that you don't think it's flattering for XYZ reasons and if it was possible for them choose another shot which would be better for ABC reasons!

x
Apr 25 13 03:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Deletethisaccount
Posts: 79
Montreal, Quebec, Canada


Tina Sun wrote:
I think it's always different how you see yourself and how someone else sees you - but as a photographer i'd definitely want a model I worked with to let me know if they are unhappy with the work! So I dont' think it's rude at all, just let them know that you don't think it's flattering for XYZ reasons and if it was possible for them choose another shot which would be better for ABC reasons!

x

+1

Apr 25 13 04:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 34,421
San Diego, California, US


Tiffany Bond wrote:
Just wondering if this is common, or if I'm just being overly-self-critical?

Maybe a little of both

Apr 25 13 04:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,129
New York, New York, US


MelissaAnn  wrote:
What's ridiculous is questioning (or putting down) the methods that other talented and successful photographers use to get their images.  I've shot with people who only got a few hundred images, and several who got 2000+.

I am not putting down anyone but "spraying and praying" isn't a method! LOL  The Op is referring to a Noob photographer as am I.  So how am I insulting this lovely community?

If someone was insulted I am sure I would have heard from them by now...

Apr 25 13 04:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,129
New York, New York, US


DP
Apr 25 13 04:22 am  Link  Quote 
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3,883
Seattle, Washington, US


Marin Photography wrote:
Ridiculous? Depends on who you work with doesn't it? What's ridiculous is people who shoot thousands of photos like a machine gun and praying for a good shot. I don't do that and I stop after each set and let the model choose what she likes. Most models don't have thousands of poses so I don't get why people do that!

When it's a trade shoot we both have a say.  If she disapproves she has a chance to say something. Also, what's ridiculous is not asking to see them. We aren't all that controlling crazy types hahaha...If I am paying I don't bother doing that so it doesn't matter.

I only shoot about 20 shots per look or less!
Marin Photography wrote:
I am not putting down anyone but "spraying and praying" isn't a method! LOL  The Op is referring to a Noob photographer as am I.  So how am I insulting this lovely community?

If someone was insulted I am sure I would have heard from them by now...

Experienced photographers that shoot thousands of photos aren't usually ever "spraying & praying." Shooting many images in a short amount of time vs. taking forever to get a single image is just a difference in style, preference, and yes, *method*. Are you assuming that amateur photographers are the only one's who take hundreds/thousands of images in a single shoot?  If so, that is a very inaccurate assumption.

method: a procedure or process for attaining an object. (dictionary definition).
By that definition, "spraying and praying" as you like to call it, is in fact a method.  It might not be yours, but that doesn't mean it isn't valid.  Many talented and well-known fashion photographers use what you call the "spray and pray" method with pretty damn amazing results.

I'm glad nobody was insulted, but I had to point out that just because it's not your way, doesn't necessarily make it "ridiculous." The amount of images taken during a shoot has nothing to do with the quality of the images themselves.

Apr 25 13 04:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,129
New York, New York, US


MelissaAnn  wrote:

Marin Photography wrote:
I only shoot about 20 shots per look or less!

I'm glad nobody was insulted, but I had to point out that just because it's not your way, doesn't necessarily make it "ridiculous." The amount of images taken during a shoot has nothing to do with the quality of the images themselves.

Well you are right. I shouldn't have said that because it isn't my way. I have seen hundreds of videos of the pros at work, sports shooters shoot lots understandably. Maybe it's just me, I don't see the value of hundreds of shots of one model when she isn't moving in a pose. I try and get the look and pose I want then shoot. Maybe I'm crazy!?....

Apr 25 13 05:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
How much did you pay him?

You can only really expect editorial control if you're the client and this is part of the contract. Otherwise, you takes your chances....

As others have said, you could try asking very nicely if he would mind using a different shot - but be prepared for a refusal and possibly a hissy fit too. We photographers can be a touchy lot! big_smile




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

I totally agree.  A client has some editorial control, but if the photographer isn't being paid, I think it's a pretty general standard that he's got the editorial control.  Photography is very subjective.  I know some models who hate their very best photos.

Apr 25 13 06:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,740
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Paid or not doesn't really matter, the photographer uses what they use.  It's no reflection on the llama if the shot is bad (unless it's the pose or expression).  I would just suggest moving on, it's not worth it as long as you have some you like.
Apr 25 13 06:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 8,220
Olney, Maryland, US


GNapp Studios wrote:
I think most photographers and clients will select you based on YOUR portfolio, not the photographers.

+1

Tiffany Bond wrote:
... one or two of the photos were actually something I could use...

Did you get copies of the ones that you like?

Apr 25 13 07:06 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,098
New York, New York, US


If it really bothers you, you can always ask the photographer to remove the credit and/or the picture, but I'd suggest making the request based on a matter of personal preference rather than the quality of the work.  Something like "The picture is in a style that doesn't reflect the image that I'm trying for in my personal development." rather than "Your photography sucks!"  Makes it a lot easier for him to comply with the request. 

But overall, even if he leaves it up, it's unlikely to affect  you in any way other than your own ego.  The people looking at his portfolio are far more likely to be thinking of working with him than working with you, anyway.  And should they decide to follow up and review your portfolio, they will quickly see the difference in the work you have posted there.

All IMHO as always, of course.
Apr 25 13 07:06 am  Link  Quote 
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