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Photographer
Mad Hatter Imagery
Posts: 1,292
Buffalo, New York, US


A physics person once told me that the sky is largely a white color, but our brains exaggerate the amount of blue that there is in order to perceive contrast between a sunny or clear day. But basically if you have a neutral piece of technology to determine what color it is, it should appear largely to be white.

Has anyone else ever heard of this?
Apr 28 13 08:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eastfist
Posts: 3,534
Green Bay, Wisconsin, US


If DSLRs don't lie, then I'll have to agree with the day sky being mostly white (blown out?). But strangely enough, though, night shots give deep blue skies.
Apr 28 13 08:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 16,096
New York, New York, US


Particles in the air....

Oakland Fires... I was there; the sky was a red as could be. Incredibly beautiful.
Colorado sunsets, much lighter per elevation.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb … lusky.html
Apr 28 13 08:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 32,828
Los Angeles, California, US


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Why_is_the_sky_blue.jpg/220px-Why_is_the_sky_blue.jpg

The sky scatters blue at lets red-orange pass. Just like this opalescent glass does.

That's why the sky is blue and sunsets are orange.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_scattering
Apr 28 13 08:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,351
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


Apr 28 13 08:30 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


The sky as you're thinking of it (like some kind of celestial object) does not exist, any more than a rainbow exists. It's just particles and atmosphere.
It's not a color, really, and whatever color you're viewing it as is valid to apply to the concept of "sky".
Apr 28 13 08:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eastfist
Posts: 3,534
Green Bay, Wisconsin, US


I wonder if we really are just a giant bubble in space just like what is shown in the endings of the Men in Black movies? Is space blue or pitch black?
Apr 28 13 08:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 16,096
New York, New York, US


NASA breaks it down.
So does Pink Floyd.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c61/jbilotta/image_zps50db836f.jpg

http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/blue-sky/
Apr 29 13 04:52 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 16,096
New York, New York, US


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:
http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/blue-sky/

Ahh, NASA.

Apr 29 13 04:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AdelaideJohn1967
Posts: 12,574
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia


Rick OBanion Photo wrote:
http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/blue-sky/

That was cool thankyou

Apr 29 13 05:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Decay of Memory
Posts: 580
Asheville, North Carolina, US


Mad Hatter Imagery wrote:
A physics person once told me that the sky is largely a white color, but our brains exaggerate the amount of blue that there is in order to perceive contrast between a sunny or clear day. But basically if you have a neutral piece of technology to determine what color it is, it should appear largely to be white.

Has anyone else ever heard of this?

Actually all color, all shape, all light and dark, are created in your mind and exist nowhere else. Yes there are waves and a physical reality outside of yourself but anything you "see" is purely created inside your mind.

Apr 29 13 05:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Decay of Memory
Posts: 580
Asheville, North Carolina, US


Eastfist wrote:
If DSLRs don't lie, then I'll have to agree with the day sky being mostly white (blown out?). But strangely enough, though, night shots give deep blue skies.

Just adjust the exposure and color balance on your camera if you'd like for it to "tell the truth" by showing a blue sky.

Apr 29 13 05:42 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 16,096
New York, New York, US


I checked this time to see if anyone posted this first

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_a … 0529c.html
Apr 29 13 06:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Music N Pics
Posts: 352
San Diego, California, US


Something that I love doing is shooting outdoors after a storm. The sky usually looks extra blue, and if youre shooting at the beach the water looks awsome.
Apr 29 13 08:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AdelaideJohn1967
Posts: 12,574
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia


Jules NYC wrote:
I checked this time to see if anyone posted this first

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_a … 0529c.html

That was interesting.

Apr 29 13 08:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mad Hatter Imagery
Posts: 1,292
Buffalo, New York, US


Jules NYC wrote:
Particles in the air....

Oakland Fires... I was there; the sky was a red as could be. Incredibly beautiful.
Colorado sunsets, much lighter per elevation.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb … lusky.html

I understand that at different times of day the sky will have more of one color from the visible spectrum than others, but my question is about to what degree the mind fools us.

Apr 29 13 10:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mad Hatter Imagery
Posts: 1,292
Buffalo, New York, US


Eastfist wrote:
I wonder if we really are just a giant bubble in space just like what is shown in the endings of the Men in Black movies? Is space blue or pitch black?

We are pretty small. In our own solar system we are a very small planet, and even within the universe we can see from earth (which probably isn't much), the largest star we can see is a billion times larger than our own sun, and our own sun is probably about a million times larger than Earth. So yeah, quite small. Not sure if that should be uplifting or depressing. lol.

Apr 29 13 10:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mad Hatter Imagery
Posts: 1,292
Buffalo, New York, US


Decay of Memory wrote:

Actually all color, all shape, all light and dark, are created in your mind and exist nowhere else. Yes there are waves and a physical reality outside of yourself but anything you "see" is purely created inside your mind.

Yes I understand my concept of the color blue or any color is only of my mind, and my blue maybe different from someone else's. But most people can tell the difference between what most call blue and what most call white. I asked an eye doctor once about the nature of the visible light spectrum and why we haven't developed mental concepts for things outside of our very small light spectrum. I mean dogs largely see in B&W but somehow have infrared in their spectrum, and bees have ultraviolet. But to my knowledge no organic life forms "see" beyond that range.

Apr 29 13 10:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GK photo
Posts: 27,736
Laguna Beach, California, US


Decay of Memory wrote:
Actually all color, all shape, all light and dark, are created in your mind and exist nowhere else. Yes there are waves and a physical reality outside of yourself but anything you "see" is purely created inside your mind.

and reversed horizontally and vertically as well.

Apr 29 13 10:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Guss W
Posts: 10,588
Clearwater, Florida, US


A kind of related question -
If I were in orbit above the atmosphere, what color temperature should my camera be set at?
Apr 30 13 09:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mad Hatter Imagery
Posts: 1,292
Buffalo, New York, US


Guss W wrote:
A kind of related question -
If I were in orbit above the atmosphere, what color temperature should my camera be set at?

Numerically i don't know. But I expect you'd need a very special expensive camera to handle all the radiation that would otherwise be blocked by the atmosphere. I assume all the light from the naked sun is all the light we are familar with as humans and would then be the purist white full spectrum that we can know of.

Apr 30 13 09:08 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 16,096
New York, New York, US


Mad Hatter Imagery wrote:

I understand that at different times of day the sky will have more of one color from the visible spectrum than others, but my question is about to what degree the mind fools us.

You mind or your eyeballs/retina?

Apr 30 13 09:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tropic Light
Posts: 7,259
Kailua, Hawaii, US


If you point your index finger towards the sun with thumb extended, then turn hand back and forth, your thumb will point to the bluest part of the sky.
Apr 30 13 09:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GK photo
Posts: 27,736
Laguna Beach, California, US


Guss W wrote:
A kind of related question -
If I were in orbit above the atmosphere, what color temperature should my camera be set at?

6000k

the sun is as white as the moon.

Apr 30 13 09:23 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 16,096
New York, New York, US


GK photo wrote:
6000k

the sun is as white as the moon.

"There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark."


- PF
'Eclipse'

Factoid for people who enjoy astronomy -

http://space.about.com/od/frequentlyask … f_moon.htm

Apr 30 13 09:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hero Foto
Posts: 878
Phoenix, Arizona, US


You Are on a Rock Floating through Space ...
Apr 30 13 09:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
hbutz New York
Posts: 3,178
Ronkonkoma, New York, US


Because if the sky was green we wouldn't know when to stop mowing the lawn.
Apr 30 13 12:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
sospix
Posts: 21,270
Orlando, Florida, US


I'm waitin' fer the green flash as the sun dips inta da ocean at sunset  .  .  .  course, all I have is a kiddie pool (and lotsa rhum), so we'll see what happens  .  .  .  wink

SOS
Apr 30 13 02:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
tonyfromsyracuse
Posts: 374
Syracuse, New York, US


I live in upstate NY. I see a grey sky most of the time.
Apr 30 13 02:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mad Hatter Imagery
Posts: 1,292
Buffalo, New York, US


Jules NYC wrote:

You mind or your eyeballs/retina?

Mind. I suspect retina is a simple machine that simply absorbs energy of a particular wavelength. The mind is what makes color. I am thinking it exaggerates the blue in the sky, which considering that human eyes are based on contrast and not on something like motion as with other animals.

Apr 30 13 07:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mad Hatter Imagery
Posts: 1,292
Buffalo, New York, US


tonyfromsyracuse wrote:
I live in upstate NY. I see a grey sky most of the time.

Huh. You am me both. Today it turned out well though. Too warm and humid however.

Apr 30 13 07:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Clarence Zimmerman
Posts: 4,048
Orlando, Florida, US


Decay of Memory wrote:

Actually all color, all shape, all light and dark, are created in your mind and exist nowhere else. Yes there are waves and a physical reality outside of yourself but anything you "see" is purely created inside your mind.

It took me a minute to understand what you were saying. You kinda said it funky...

This is the way I was taught: We do not see the actual objects in front of us we only see the light reflecting from those objects and our brains translate that into the "image" of what we see...

AND to top it off, we see colors based on the colors that the objects reflect or the light sources project. The sun projects all wavelengths of light and to the point of the OP the sky refracts certain wavelengths based on the particles in the atmosphere and angle of sun.

I'm sure that doesn't make it any less complicated, honestly it is a good thing for ANY photographer to study on and understand and a simple forum response is just not enough to do it any justice. smile

Apr 30 13 09:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Clarence Zimmerman
Posts: 4,048
Orlando, Florida, US


GK photo wrote:
6000k

the sun is as white as the moon.

The color temp of the sun (on earth within our atmosphere) ranges between 5500 and 6000, Most bulbs are rated for 5500 K there is a good chart on wiki for color temps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature

however he asked about what if he were in space? in orbit above the atmosphere I would think if you were taking a picture of the earth you would want that 5500-6k because that should be what is reflecting back at you (he said with a question mark) ?

but what if he was taking a picture of a NASA model standing next to the white space station in her hot new white space suit with the "white" sun over his shoulder? from looking further online it seems the answer is around 6500k.

Here is a crash course on this very thing. It was created apparently for cinematography http://www.ryanpatrickohara.com/downloa … rature.pdf

Apr 30 13 09:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Clarence Zimmerman
Posts: 4,048
Orlando, Florida, US


Mad Hatter Imagery wrote:

Mind. I suspect retina is a simple machine that simply absorbs energy of a particular wavelength. The mind is what makes color. I am thinking it exaggerates the blue in the sky, which considering that human eyes are based on contrast and not on something like motion as with other animals.

within our eyeballs are photo-receptors which are rods and cones and if your eyes are "normal" than the color you see will be the exact same color anyone else sees all our eyes are biologically the same. Some people ARE however color blind because they have problems with their cones or nerves or brain etc. The cones are the only ones that are color sensitive. These cones send signals through your nerves to our brains telling the brain what color it has received. here is a good article on it that discusses it in more detail.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb … dcone.html

Apr 30 13 10:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Clarence Zimmerman
Posts: 4,048
Orlando, Florida, US


Black objects appear black because they absorb all wavelengths of light
White objects? They reflect all wavelengths of light.
Red? Reflect red absorb the rest

and so-on

Now translate that to what does a blue filter on your lens do?

or what does an orange diffuser do when you place it over your flash?

No, I'm not going to teach you everything I know about color... you must learn your own kung-fu! smile

^^^ stuff I don't think about much anymore and new by heart years ago... digital age has really dumbed me down and I must think about this when it comes up anymore... smile
Apr 30 13 10:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Clarence Zimmerman
Posts: 4,048
Orlando, Florida, US


Should this really be in off-topic? tongue
Apr 30 13 10:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 16,096
New York, New York, US


Clarence Zimmerman wrote:

within our eyeballs are photo-receptors which are rods and cones and if your eyes are "normal" than the color you see will be the exact same color anyone else sees all our eyes are biologically the same. Some people ARE however color blind because they have problems with their cones or nerves or brain etc. The cones are the only ones that are color sensitive. These cones send signals through your nerves to our brains telling the brain what color it has received. here is a good article on it that discusses it in more detail.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb … dcone.html

I threw out that link too.

It's not your mind; it's the mechanics that just happen to be in your head.

May 01 13 03:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18,144
Orlando, Florida, US


Eastfist wrote:
If DSLRs don't lie, then I'll have to agree with the day sky being mostly white (blown out?). But strangely enough, though, night shots give deep blue skies.

I don't know when I expose for the sky with my dslr with correct exposure it comes out blue. Unless is a cloudy day.

May 01 13 04:36 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mad Hatter Imagery
Posts: 1,292
Buffalo, New York, US


Clarence Zimmerman wrote:

within our eyeballs are photo-receptors which are rods and cones and if your eyes are "normal" than the color you see will be the exact same color anyone else sees all our eyes are biologically the same. Some people ARE however color blind because they have problems with their cones or nerves or brain etc. The cones are the only ones that are color sensitive. These cones send signals through your nerves to our brains telling the brain what color it has received. here is a good article on it that discusses it in more detail.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb … dcone.html

I shouldn't have to tell you that there is no proof of people seeing colors the same. I might actually see green when refering to blue, but I've defined it as blue, and so long as I make the distinction that it is blue than nobody can prove that I don't see color the same as they do. Perception and what retina was designed to do are very different things. I have an old psych textbook on perception.

May 01 13 08:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Clarence Zimmerman
Posts: 4,048
Orlando, Florida, US


Mad Hatter Imagery wrote:
I shouldn't have to tell you that there is no proof of people seeing colors the same. I might actually see green when refering to blue, but I've defined it as blue, and so long as I make the distinction that it is blue than nobody can prove that I don't see color the same as they do. Perception and what retina was designed to do are very different things. I have an old psych textbook on perception.

well; I guess that depends on how you look at the problem (no pun intended...)

Philosophically? Biologically? or Psychologically? I bet we could even apply mathematics to it too. smile

we call this :
http://decoymagazine.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/red-300x300.jpg

RED, mathematically it is a specific wavelength of color. Our photoreceptors receive this information and our brains report it to us.

Technically speaking you are correct that we can each see that same color differently if our photoreceptors or the receiving end of our brain are not working properly. However in my comment I mentioned this. If our brains and eyes are biologically "perfect" we do see the same way and obviously the world is not a perfect place including human biology. smile

Here is a good and much more precise read on this from UC Santa Barbara http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=719

May 01 13 08:07 pm  Link  Quote 
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