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1234last
Photographer
Ava Photography
Posts: 117
San Francisco, California, US


Please pardon me but I do not know how else to describe the issue succinctly in the subject line.

Issue 1

I have had several experiences while responding to female models who post casting calls for TFP photographers.  When I respond, the female model answers that she is not doing TFP but seeking paid work.

While I am at it...

Issue 2

Equivalent if not worse are some female models who cast for photographers on a "negotiable" basis which often seems to turn out to mean that the she wants to negotiate a fee for her services as a model from the photographer, not vice versa.  I think the female models who do this may be abusing the intent of the MM casting call posting feature and should really be using the MM availability notice posting feature.

Both of these issues interfere with photographers who are seriously interested to find female models legitimately interested in TFP or paid photographer services on MM.

If these are well known issues, then why do they persist?  If they are actually not issues, I would appreciate being informed as to the actual intent of the casting call and availability notice MM features.  Thanks.
May 01 13 12:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
sdgillis
Posts: 2,434
Portland, Oregon, US


cam them.
May 01 13 12:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,080
Miami, Florida, US


report them and the casting call...that simple
May 01 13 12:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MB JenB
Posts: 2,977
Clarksville, Tennessee, US


Hi,

I've encountered photographers, wardrobe and muaha respond to a tf casting and offering their fees too.

Jen
May 01 13 12:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,620
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


May 01 13 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 36,397
Columbus, Ohio, US


Casting calls have been out of control for a long time....a very long time.
Good luck CAM'ing them.
May 01 13 12:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25,351
Portland, Oregon, US


Cherrystone wrote:
Casting calls have been out of control for a long time....a very long time.
Good luck CAM'ing them.

yeah, last I read they got angry at some people for CAMing too much to clean up that area.

May 01 13 12:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 7,562
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Cherrystone wrote:
Casting calls have been out of control for a long time....a very long time.
Good luck CAM'ing them.

+1

May 01 13 12:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hi_Spade Photography
Posts: 897
Darlington, South Carolina, US


Cherrystone wrote:
Casting calls have been out of control for a long time....a very long time.
Good luck CAM'ing them.

+1000. It's so bad here that I don't even bother looking at the castings any more.

May 01 13 12:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 54,057
Buena Park, California, US


Ava Photography wrote:
Please pardon me but I do not know how else to describe the issue succinctly in the subject line.

Issue 1

I have had several experiences while responding to female models who post casting calls for TFP photographers.  When I respond, the female model answers that she is not doing TFP but seeking paid work.

While I am at it...

Issue 2

Equivalent if not worse are some female models who cast for photographers on a "negotiable" basis which often seems to turn out to mean that the she wants to negotiate a fee for her services as a model from the photographer, not vice versa.  I think the female models who do this may be abusing the intent of the MM casting call posting feature and should really be using the MM availability notice posting feature.

Both of these issues interfere with photographers who are seriously interested to find female models legitimately interested in TFP or paid photographer services on MM.

If these are well known issues, then why do they persist?  If they are actually not issues, I would appreciate being informed as to the actual intent of the casting call and availability notice MM features.  Thanks.

Or the engagement, wedding, or pregnancy photos on a TFP basis.

MM's casting calls are not much better than Craigslist.

May 01 13 12:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 36,397
Columbus, Ohio, US


Patchouli Nyx wrote:

yeah, last I read they got angry at some people for CAMing too much to clean up that area.

And yet they once permabanned someone for admittedly casting for paid work.

May 01 13 12:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Meghan Hale
Posts: 335
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada


Well, one of the rules about casting calls, is that you cannot post a casting if you're looking to be paid. So, they obviously don't read the rules or are just money-craving wannabees.
May 01 13 12:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hi_Spade Photography
Posts: 897
Darlington, South Carolina, US


Meghan Hale wrote:
Well, one of the rules about casting calls, is that you cannot post a casting if you're looking to be paid. So, they obviously don't read the rules or are just money-craving wannabees.

Really?? I thought they could post castings for paid work as long as it was listed under the "paid" section in the castings.

May 01 13 12:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marc Damon
Posts: 6,562
Biloxi, Mississippi, US


I agree the castings on MM have serious problems. But remember that TF should be beneficial to everyone involved. When a model posts a casting for TF it doesn't mean she's willing to work with every wannabe photographer that just bought his first dslr. The same is true in reverse. Not every photographer with years of true commercial experience wants to work TF with every wannabe model with 4 crappy cell phone pics.
May 01 13 12:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Charlie-CNP
Posts: 2,620
New York, New York, US


hmm... if only some people actually posted what they actually mean on the internet.... (ie. I'll trade you pictures for green Benjamin's). big_smile
May 01 13 12:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
T A Y L O R
Posts: 2,977
Austin, Texas, US


I usually use negotiable to mean that I'll work TF with select photographers, but if I'm not interested in doing a trade shoot with them I'll send them my rates. I usually state as much, too.

Does negotiate mean negotiating rates to pay a photographer? Where's that stated?
May 01 13 12:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ava Photography
Posts: 117
San Francisco, California, US


Meghan Hale wrote:
Well, one of the rules about casting calls, is that you cannot post a casting if you're looking to be paid. So, they obviously don't read the rules or are just money-craving wannabees.

Thanks.  I found the casting call rules here (by selecting the "Show all rules [+]" button-- please note that normally it does not show):

http://www.modelmayhem.com/casting/newcasting

Rules: Violations will be taken down and members may lose privileges.
Casting calls MUST be filled out with basic job information (Date, time, location, pay rate, etc). Posts that state "contact me for details" are not allowed.
TF* casting calls that require PAY are NOT allowed.
Casting calls for agencies, model groups, or bikini teams are NOT allowed.
Posting for events, classes, workshops, etc. are NOT allowed.
Studio rental postings are NOT allowed (please use MM market forum).
PAID: labeling a post PAID means that you are looking to hire and PAY someone. Bartering of any kind is not considered pay. Deferred payments of any kind is not considered pay. Paid casting does not mean you want someone to pay you.
All other site rules apply.

... evidently this is insufficient to prevent substantial abuse, resulting in the lack of ability to use the feature as originally intended by both legitimate female models and legitimate photographers.  Perhaps a change is needed-- something such as increasing the penalty for abuse to removing the account of the poster upon a verifiable instance of the rules violation.  Also, I think it might help if the rule shows every time one uses the feature to create and modify a casting call.

May 01 13 12:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ava Photography
Posts: 117
San Francisco, California, US


Marc Damon wrote:
I agree the castings on MM have serious problems. But remember that TF should be beneficial to everyone involved. When a model posts a casting for TF it doesn't mean she's willing to work with every wannabe photographer that just bought his first dslr.
[...]

I do not dispute that.

However, it is also true that the model is able to respond to the photographer and let the photographer know that she is passing on the photographer's offer because the photographer's portfolio does not seem to her a good fit for her vision for the shoot.
In practice, I have occasionally received such messages, and I appreciate them.  At worst, the female model can simply ignore the photographer inbox message.  However, I am specifically addressing the issue of the false pretense and the subsequent loss of potentially excellent opportunities by parties on both sides of the casting call function simply because of the prevailing abuse patterns by less than scrupulous models interfering with the original intent of the MM casting call feature.  I am at the point of giving up myself on checking the casting calls because of this issue (hence my original post).

May 01 13 01:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
Chain Reaction
Posts: 529
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


They all have a "Report this casting" link on them. Just use that if they are not following the rules.
May 01 13 01:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,137
Portland, Oregon, US


If you don't want to pay them, you don't have to.
If they don't want to pay you, they don't have to.
All else is unnecessary drama.
May 01 13 01:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ava Photography
Posts: 117
San Francisco, California, US


T A Y L O R  wrote:
I usually use negotiable to mean that I'll work TF with select photographers, but if I'm not interested in doing a trade shoot with them I'll send them my rates. I usually state as much, too.

To me that seems like an abuse, since the rules indicate that all respondees may expect either some form of payment or unpaid barter, but that "casting calls that require some form of pay are not allowed."  By sending someone who responds to your casting call your fee schedule, you are explicitly asking that person who responded for pay, which is unconditionally "not allowed" in casting calls.  I would appreciate clarification including appropriate citation(s) from appropriate rule(s) if I am in fact mistaken on this.

This is IMHO a classic example of the abuse.  What part of "require... pay... not allowed" allows requiring the casting call respondee to pay, under any conceivable circumstances??

T A Y L O R  wrote:
Does negotiate mean negotiating rates to pay a photographer? Where's that stated?

As alluded to earlier in the thread after your response, the casting call rules are here (by selecting the "Show all rules [+]" button-- please note that normally it does not show):

http://www.modelmayhem.com/casting/newcasting

Rules: Violations will be taken down and members may lose privileges.
Casting calls MUST be filled out with basic job information (Date, time, location, pay rate, etc). Posts that state "contact me for details" are not allowed.
TF* casting calls that require PAY are NOT allowed.
Casting calls for agencies, model groups, or bikini teams are NOT allowed.
Posting for events, classes, workshops, etc. are NOT allowed.
Studio rental postings are NOT allowed (please use MM market forum).
PAID: labeling a post PAID means that you are looking to hire and PAY someone. Bartering of any kind is not considered pay. Deferred payments of any kind is not considered pay. Paid casting does not mean you want someone to pay you.
All other site rules apply.

Granted the rules do not show by default.  A casting call is (at least to me) an advertisement for a (paid or volunteer) job position.  I believe that it should be common sense that you don't respond to a job posting with an expectation that you will be asked to pay for the privilege of filling the job position.

Perhaps this response can be useful to illustrate that the rules need to be included up front in the page for the MM models using the casting call feature who do not bother to check the rules before posting.

Taylor, imagine you are a model looking for either for TFP or legitimate paid work, but that a million photographers posting casting calls informing casting call model respondees upon initial contact that they are almost always -- at least in your case -- seeking money from you.  Does that make you want to continue trying to use MM casting calls to seek paid work? Or would it begin to seem like a waste of your time since so many of the photographers are in practice actually looking for you to pay them?

Also IMHO it should not matter if you state "no TFP" or "paid only" somewhere else, such as in your profile, since at best you are then putting out inconsistent information, and you put all the responsibility on the reader to sort out in which cases you are serious about something, and when you are not.

This is why I put such models who respond like that to my casting call inquiry in a no fly zone, because they abuse the intent of the site, disregard communication rules on behalf of their own self interest to the detriment of the community as a whole, and apparently do not have sufficient capability to empathize with the predicaments of other MM users to realize the issues that they cause.  Evidently at least a few female models (one example appears earlier in the thread) have no problems understanding and applying these same rules in the manner that the rules seem intended to be understood and applied.  By contrast, if I take up a female model's counteroffer for the female model to receive payment for what was originally a photographer casting call, then I am actually encouraging that female model and others like her to continue to abuse the MM casting call feature by using it like some kind of disguised availability notice feature, as well as selectively disregard MM rules when it suits their own self interest to the detriment of the MM community as a whole.

May 01 13 01:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Abigail Rose Hill
Posts: 538
Newcastle upon Tyne, England, United Kingdom


I've specifically posted UNPAID test castings and been quoted rates before.

Sh1t happens.
May 01 13 02:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


From what I hear its a pretty common practice.
May 01 13 02:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,630
Los Angeles, California, US


Moderator Note!
Rather than CAM, hit the little flag at the bottom of the casting call!

Those come to us separately from CAMs and are much easier and faster for us to go through. smile
May 01 13 02:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,630
Los Angeles, California, US


T A Y L O R  wrote:
I usually use negotiable to mean that I'll work TF with select photographers, but if I'm not interested in doing a trade shoot with them I'll send them my rates. I usually state as much, too.

Does negotiate mean negotiating rates to pay a photographer? Where's that stated?

Yes. Negotiable means the pay you are offering is negotiable.

You cannot ask for pay in casting calls, period.

May 01 13 02:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
Rather than CAM, hit the little flag at the bottom of the casting call!

Those come to us separately from CAMs and are much easier and faster for us to go through. smile

That only works if the model actually asks for pay in the casting.

There's one casting in my area that I've reported three times to no effect. The casting specifies compensation negotiable and she sounds like she's open to TF, but in contacting the model she explains the "negotiable" is how much pay she'll work for. I've told her that's not how casting calls work and that "negotiable" means she's flexible on how much she'll pay the photographer. The casting remains unchanged and is still active.

May 01 13 02:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,630
Los Angeles, California, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:

That only works if the model actually asks for pay in the casting.

There's one casting in my area that I've reported three times to no effect. The casting specifies compensation negotiable, but in contacting the model she explains the "negotiable" is how much pay she'll work for. I've told her that's not how casting calls work and that "negotiable" means she's flexible on how much she'll pay the photographer. The casting remains unchanged and is still active.

Can you report the message? There's a new-ish feature where you can hit a flag on a message and choose to share it with the mods.

Yeah, it's hard when they don't actually ask in the casting, but in that case CAMing or reporting the message (my preferred option) is better.

May 01 13 02:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WMcK
Posts: 5,268
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom


Hi_Spade Photography wrote:
Really?? I thought they could post castings for paid work as long as it was listed under the "paid" section in the castings.

No "paid" means that the person posting the call pays, not the one who responds to it.

May 01 13 02:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


K I C K H A M wrote:

Can you report the message? There's a new-ish feature where you can hit a flag on a message and choose to share it with the mods.

Yeah, it's hard when they don't actually ask in the casting, but in that case CAMing or reporting the message (my preferred option) is better.

Her disclosure was in a non-MM email.

May 01 13 02:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,630
Los Angeles, California, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:

Her disclosure was in a non-MM email.

Unfortunately, CAMing is the only good option in that specific case. It is harder when it's he-said she-said, but if multiple people report it, it gets easier.

May 01 13 02:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ava Photography
Posts: 117
San Francisco, California, US


Abi Hill wrote:
I've specifically posted UNPAID test castings and been quoted rates before.

[...]

Immaterial.  Totally different issue; also you are not asserting that you or your respondees disregarded any MM forum rules.

May 01 13 02:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hi_Spade Photography
Posts: 897
Darlington, South Carolina, US


K I C K H A M wrote:

Unfortunately, CAMing is the only good option in that specific case. It is harder when it's he-said she-said, but if multiple people report it, it gets easier.

What if they give you a e-mail address and tell you to send a e-mail. Then you send a e-mail and they send you their rates. If you still have the e-mails as proof should we still CAM them?

May 01 13 03:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ava Photography
Posts: 117
San Francisco, California, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
Unfortunately, CAMing is the only good option in that specific case. It is harder when it's he-said she-said, but if multiple people report it, it gets easier.

This is why I think MM system changes such as making the rules more clear and difficult for users to ignore would be more effective.

I believe that such system MM changes would at least help attenuate the abuse of the female models who are gaming the casting call MM feature to troll for paid gigs, and those who female models who have or claim lack of awareness of the existing (but currently hidden) casting call rules and 'unintentionally' use some or all of the responses they get to troll for paid gigs.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, etc.

May 01 13 03:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,630
Los Angeles, California, US


Hi_Spade Photography wrote:

What if they give you a e-mail address and tell you to send a e-mail. Then you send a e-mail and they send you their rates. If you still have the e-mails as proof should we still CAM them?

Yes, please do. smile

May 01 13 03:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,630
Los Angeles, California, US


Ava Photography wrote:
This is why I think MM system changes such as making the rules more clear and difficult for users to ignore would be more effective.

I believe that such system MM changes would at least help attenuate the abuse of the female llamas who are gaming the casting call MM feature to troll for paid gigs, and those who female llamas who have or claim lack of awareness of the existing (but currently hidden) casting call rules and 'unintentionally' use some or all of the responses they get to troll for paid gigs.

We do pay attention to repeat offenses, but if you have ideas for how to make the site/ site rules better, go here!
http://www.modelmayhem.com/t.php?forum_id=4

May 01 13 03:12 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,064
New York, New York, US


Hi_Spade Photography wrote:

Really?? I thought they could post castings for paid work as long as it was listed under the "paid" section in the castings.

"Paid" in a casting call means that the poster plans to pay the respondent.  Same for "negotiable"--it means that the poster is willing to negotiate anywhere from TF* to whatever the respondent's rates are.  If the poster wants to be paid they have to post an availability notice. 

I don't think it's so much a problem of people trying to circumvent the rules as it is one of people not bothering to read them.  I seem to see this error most often when the model is brand new to MM or is just starting out on the traveling model trail.

All IMHO, as always.

May 01 13 03:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


K I C K H A M wrote:

Unfortunately, CAMing is the only good option in that specific case. It is harder when it's he-said she-said, but if multiple people report it, it gets easier.

How about screen-captures of the email?

May 01 13 03:34 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,064
New York, New York, US


Ava Photography wrote:
This is why I think MM system changes such as making the rules more clear and difficult for users to ignore would be more effective.

I believe that such system MM changes would at least help attenuate the abuse of the female models who are gaming the casting call MM feature to troll for paid gigs, and those who female models who have or claim lack of awareness of the existing (but currently hidden) casting call rules and 'unintentionally' use some or all of the responses they get to troll for paid gigs.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, etc.

At one time I almost posted a suggestion that newbies be blocked from posting in the forums until they'd been members for at least three months and answered a short quiz on the rules.  I didn't because it would be too cumbersome and impractical and would just make people resentful and unwilling to post at all.

How much trouble is it to accept the fact that no matter how well constructed the rules may be, there will always be people who will break them, whether intentionally or inadvertently, and realizing that, to simply reply "No thanks", and then go on to the next one.  Or if the breach is obviously intentional, CAMing them?  Seems to me that this would be an easier and more productive approach than getting all worked up about it.  In the words of the famous philosopher, Ron White, "You can't fix stupid," so why agitate yourself trying? 

All IMHO as always, of course.

May 01 13 03:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gavin Poh
Posts: 229
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


Hi_Spade Photography wrote:
Really?? I thought they could post castings for paid work as long as it was listed under the "paid" section in the castings.

When a user puts up a "cast" they are seeking a service. When a another user responds, they typically have a service to offer that matches the cast.

The "service provider" doesnt pay the caster.

Person seeking a service pays for the service or should make it clear they are seeking this service for a mutually beneficial trade.

Its almost like asking a the kid next door to come clean your pool, then expecting him to pay you for the privilidge.

May 01 13 03:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ava Photography
Posts: 117
San Francisco, California, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
We do pay attention to repeat offenses, but if you have ideas for how to make the site/ site rules better, go here!
http://www.modelmayhem.com/t.php?forum_id=4

done:

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=890108

however, now that i know where to look, i note that the previous site thread on the topic

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=846091

noted the problem well and included some ideas, but did not seem to result in any changes.

May 01 13 03:45 pm  Link  Quote 
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