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Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


IDiivil wrote:

Anna, I'd like to pose question here since I respect your input on here and find you both talented and professional... and I sincerely want to know! smile No challenge meant in any way:

Do you ask the MUA what his/her plan is regardless of whether it is trade/paid work?

In regards to specifically paid work, would you communicate a different look or slight alteration to the mua? Are there any circumstances where you would most definitely not offer your input to the mua regarding the look?

yes, I ask. shootconcepts are also discussed beforehand with a photographer, and most of the time the look for the muah is also kind of clear from that, but they stil have their freedom to create something within that idea.

Asking is partly to communicate, but also partly because it simply interests me. More like "so, what beautiful make up are we going to do today?". I don't think that is inaproppriate to do, paid or tf.

the only time where I would not say anything about the make up, is when I'm doing work through my agency. There I'm really just a doll they can play with smile. Sometimes they'll ask my opinion and then I'll give it, but not sooner. One thing I do though (even on agency business), is (if the opportunity is there), tell them something about how my face works or hair works. for instance, I have very thick and frizzy hair (I always comb it out before an assignment), but it can be curled or styled very easily.

so I'll get on set, take out my rubber hairband;
muah: wow, you have a lot of hair!
me: haha yes, I know, blame my parents, I had nothing to do with it wink
muah: it's a bit frizzy though. did you comb it out?
me: yes, I did this morning. Last time I washed it was 2 days ago. But normally my hair is very easy to curl or straighten, it takes really well
muah: okay, good to know

elaborate example, but you see where I'm going with this smile

It's no different I think than occasionally asking a photographer about his lighting, or up to where he's taking the shots (fullbody, halfbody,...). you can adjust your modeling according to what the rest of the team is doing right? not only the photographer, but also the muah.

as fa as slight alterations goes: for paid work I'll just stick to touch ups. sometimes the muah is busy doing all sorts of things and I'll notice something, and then I'll ask. "my lipstick has gotten a bit lumpy in the corners", "oh my concealer has faded a bit under my eyes" "I think this eyelash is coming of a bit, do you see it in the pictures?". stuff like that. For tf shoots, I'll sometimes go as far as really making suggestions. If I really don't like the lipstick colour, I'll voice my concerns. but always respectful.

hope that answers your question smile

May 02 13 12:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,453
Paris, Île-de-France, France


The OP asked if it happens that the before make up is often better than the after ( sort of).

Make up is a palette of colors or not, to embellish one's traits or recreate.

What is art always a question with the only answer what is art to you.

As Anne said before it's all done communication is key of knowing the desired results.

Where most go wrong, is each one's separate desires for a result that cannot happen if none of the team communicate or perform to get the result.

Many too many MUAs miss the point by a long shot in this respect. I work weekly with MUAs doing big name magazine work who still miss the point.

Most of the time models don't want to speak up, and say their peace. They just keep quiet, even when they see it is not going the direction they want.

In the case of the OP, I've seen this happen too often, the mu is just wrong for the girl and or the idea that anyone had of what is beautiful or not.

Surprisingly when suggesting that a mua takes a look in the actual light and explaining that the make up room lights should be played down, the reaction is sometimes, like I'll do it here it has to be right.
Wrong.

Each element combined can make or break pictures and quickly.
I'm terrible at communication so much of what I do is luck, and faith in the team, mua in particular.

Yet times when working with less experienced MUAs I've cringed with the after mu and knew it was too late.

It is easy to see in a MUAs portfolio if they know how, well if their style is your idea of good. If you look as a model at a MUA's portfolio and you see way too much, no natural looks, nothing that says I could make you beautiful with retaining something of the persons character, and nothing that is not Photoshopped , I'd say you're out of luck, it ain't going to happen.
May 02 13 01:14 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


oh, and what Neil said smile
May 02 13 01:25 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Lindsey Sharon
Posts: 306
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada


Anna Adrielle wrote:
...Edited to save space!... smile

I can't speak for other MUAs, but personally I find a model asking about what I'm planning to do to be a good idea. It gives me a chance to realize the model may not be very comfortable with my current choices and I'm able to re-evaluate and modify the plan from there or to explain why I'm making that choice.  Sometimes I lose myself in what I'm doing as well and the models able to bring me back to earth.

An example; this weekend I worked on a model with very deep, gorgeous skin. She saw me grab my bright blushes and asked about them. It was really obvious by her pointing the colours out that they scared her a little. I informed her that on her skin the colour wouldn't show as strong, about how it would compliment her skin tone, ect and after talking I personally felt she was more comfortable with my decisions from then on and she loved the look when I was finished.  If she hasn't been as dark, I would have grabbed a different blush pallet simply because I knew she was worried.  I did end up changing my mind to a much deeper lipstick then I had planned because I realized she would prefer it.

May 02 13 01:36 am  Link  Quote 
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 3,988
Burbank, California, US


Anna Adrielle wrote:
-snip for space -

This really helps. Thank you, Anna. I can read a clear and detailed explanation of how you communicate and interact with your makeup artists. It's definitely respectful and gives more knowledge to your artist on how to work with your face/hair.

I guess my problem is that a lot of my working conditions do ultimately reflect more of what you experience in your agency shoot situations... at least in regards to kind of staying out of the entire process. That isn't a bad thing and I don't mean to complain about my lack of input at all - it just gives me a different view of what expectations there are for a model on set, so I respond in threads like these from a totally different perspective.

Hrm! Gives me a lot to think about smile

Thank you again

May 02 13 01:45 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Lynz_Sharon wrote:

I can't speak for other MUAs, but personally I find a model asking about what I'm planning to do to be a good idea. It gives me a chance to realize the model may not be very comfortable with my current choices and I'm able to re-evaluate and modify the plan from there or to explain why I'm making that choice.  Sometimes I lose myself in what I'm doing as well and the models able to bring me back to earth.

An example; this weekend I worked on a model with very deep, gorgeous skin. She saw me grab my bright blushes and asked about them. It was really obvious by her pointing the colours out that they scared her a little. I informed her that on her skin the colour wouldn't show as strong, about how it would compliment her skin tone, ect and after talking I personally felt she was more comfortable with my decisions from then on and she loved the look when I was finished.  If she hasn't been as dark, I would have grabbed a different blush pallet simply because I knew she was worried.  I did end up changing my mind to a much deeper lipstick then I had planned because I realized she would prefer it.

that's great smile. nice to hear you're not offended by polite questions too! I think a lot of models are afraid of offending the muah (who will then make them look awful), but there's nothing wrong with communicating with eachother.

oh and sometimes, I do ask questions just because it's interesting! I want to know what all the different brushes are for and stuff. Not that I'm asking questions all the time, but if I see the muah looking for a weirdlooking brush I will ask. I also appreciate it when a muah tells me what she's going to do. Like, the powder you put under the eyes before you put on eyeshadow sometimes? to catch any flakes of eyeshadow so it doesn't get smeared all over the face? and then afterwards you remove the white powder? I had no idea what it was the first time someone put it on me, was kind of scared that it was going to be part of the final look... happy she explained it to me smile

May 02 13 01:47 am  Link  Quote 
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 3,988
Burbank, California, US


Anna Adrielle wrote:

that's great smile. nice to hear you're not offended by polite questions too! I think a lot of models are afraid of offending the muah (who will then make them look awful), but there's nothing wrong with communicating with eachother.

oh and sometimes, I do ask questions just because it's interesting! I want to know what all the different brushes are for and stuff. Not that I'm asking questions all the time, but if I see the muah looking for a weirdlooking brush I will ask. I also appreciate it when a muah tells me what she's going to do. Like, the powder you put under the eyes before you put on eyeshadow sometimes? to catch any flakes of eyeshadow so it doesn't get smeared all over the face? and then afterwards you remove the white powder? I had no idea what it was the first time someone put it on me, was kind of scared that it was going to be part of the final look... happy she explained it to me smile

To be fair, I rarely communicate save to ask about the occasional bits and pieces (usually from someone I've worked with more than once) ... and I'd /like/ to think that most of what is done turns out pretty well >___>

*Kept her mouth shut on all her portfolio shots, for example*

May 02 13 01:53 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


IDiivil wrote:

To be fair, I rarely communicate save to ask about the occasional bits and pieces (usually from someone I've worked with more than once) ... and I'd /like/ to think that most of what is done turns out pretty well >___>

*Kept her mouth shut on all her portfolio shots, for example*

hahaha :p

well, everyone is different smile. I like communication. Not that I talk all the time, but I like discussing a shoot beforehand and communicating during the prepwork. then during the shoot it's time to shoot ofcourse.

if you are satisfied with the way your shoots go and the results turn out, there's really no need to change anything is there smile?

May 02 13 01:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15,376
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


There are MUA who are highly trained in their craft and there are those who work behind a counter selling make up and occasionally applying it with basic training.


I suspect models and photographers who have had bad experiences with MUA have worked with the latter of the two.
May 02 13 02:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,554
Salinas, California, US


Jennifer Yi wrote:
OMG don't get me started on my hair!! idk... even when i go to those dry bars/blow out salons (where they only blowout your hair...), i always show photos of what style i want etc (most of the time big loose sexy curls; basic stuff)and the final look is nothing what i asked for/wanted!!!! ok so my hair is thick and long..does that mean my hair is uncapable of having big loose curls etc???

Wow!  You have a lot of complaints!  I can tell you with the limited experience I have had in the hair/MU industry that your hair is not easy to create the those big loose curls you want and make them stay long enough for the shoot.  Those people doing the "blow outs" are often still in training themselves as the real experienced pros will be doing all the other stuff from cutting to coloring.  A "professional" should be able to do it though.

As a paying photographer, I would not like it if you were changing the make up or hairstyle that I just paid someone to do on you.  It's actually not a good thing that you've admitted to it on this public forum.  You do have a couple choices ... one is to hold your tongue and not say anything, or the other is to talk with the person paying you and the MUA.  What I would want you to do is communicate your concerns with me about it!   

What's the worst that can happen?  Maybe I'll agree with you?  Or maybe the MUA is doing the MU by specific request from me?  Maybe the MUA is testing, or I'm testing the MUA? There can be many reasons.  If I happen to agree with you, then it would be best to approach the MUA in a way to communicate better what the desired "look" is rather than go behind their back changing the make up yourself and not tell them. 

Communication is key!  If you go changing up the hair and/or make up without telling me after I just paid someone to do it, that is one good reason that I will not be calling you back to shoot again.  Either accept what has been done, or ask me to have a discussion about it privately.  Although your input is important to me, you are not the one making the final decision.

May 02 13 02:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,048
New York, New York, US


I don't believe it, your photos don't look horrible. You don't appear to have much make up on, although it is hard to tell with all that skin blurring going on....Maybe you can post a photo so we can see what you are talking about.
May 02 13 03:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,554
Salinas, California, US


IDiivil wrote:

I have mostly Asian eyes... some makeup artists are intimidated by mine at introduction because it is neither full Asian nor full Caucasian (such declaration of the intimidation is rare, but it has happened)... Still, I have never had such a problem with my makeup that I would change it - and I am working in LA. Same location as the OP. I've also worked in Ohio and Michigan, which could be argued as having far less of an Asian population to practice on to begin with...

Maybe I'm not working with the same makeup artists as the OP..? I still work with a LOT of different artists throughout my experience of being a model.

I just feel like there's more going on and it's not just some epidemic of ineptitude shown by every mua the OP has ever worked with :S

I love your eyes!  Your eyes give you more versatility in regards to your looks, but I can imagine that can be a problem for someone who is either not trained for biracial eyes, skin and facial structure.  I think mixed ethnicities make for some of the most beautiful women in the World!  Kimiko in my avatar is tri-racial.  I love California for being a blending of so many people of different nationalities, cultures, and ethnicities! 

When it comes to hiring MUA's, I like to notice who the models are getting their make up done by.  When I find a make up artist who I like working with, I stay committed to that person.   Some models tell me that they are good with their own hair and make up.  I'll look at what they've done, and depending on the purpose of the shoot, I may go with the model doing her own hair and make up.  It comes down to communication.

May 02 13 03:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,554
Salinas, California, US


Lynz_Sharon wrote:

I can't speak for other MUAs, but personally I find a model asking about what I'm planning to do to be a good idea. It gives me a chance to realize the model may not be very comfortable with my current choices and I'm able to re-evaluate and modify the plan from there or to explain why I'm making that choice.  Sometimes I lose myself in what I'm doing as well and the models able to bring me back to earth.

An example; this weekend I worked on a model with very deep, gorgeous skin. She saw me grab my bright blushes and asked about them. It was really obvious by her pointing the colours out that they scared her a little. I informed her that on her skin the colour wouldn't show as strong, about how it would compliment her skin tone, ect and after talking I personally felt she was more comfortable with my decisions from then on and she loved the look when I was finished.  If she hasn't been as dark, I would have grabbed a different blush pallet simply because I knew she was worried.  I did end up changing my mind to a much deeper lipstick then I had planned because I realized she would prefer it.

I like your style!  As if you can't tell, I'm a communicator.  If the model feels comfortable enough to talk with you directly, that's fine.  I know I just said for the model to talk with me if she has a complaint or issue with her make up, but then I would decide how best to handle it tactfully depending on what the purpose was for the make up in the first place.  Pulling the MUA to the side for a meeting to discuss it, or perhaps nothing needs to be said at all.  If she feels comfortable enough to ask you questions and discuss her thoughts on what you are doing, that's even better!

May 02 13 03:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5,086
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


IDiivil wrote:
Camerosity, I'm not sure if it's the retouching that is the main issue since the OP claims everyone else's makeup but hers is good... or claims that everyone's makeup is bad so they changed it.

In other words, the problem is before all the selection/processing.

Yes, I saw that. It’s not clear to me whether the OP is saying that the models came out of the dressing room looking good or that they came out looking good in the photos. Anyway, that doesn't eliminate the possibility that...

...different MUA's worked with different models, which in my experience is quite common with groups of models (so that models don't have to stand around and wait for one MUA to do three other models).

...the OP has seen finished photos of the other models (possibly the same photos she was in) and is basing her judgment more on how the retouched photos looked than how the makeup looked in person.

...the OP has seen the finished photos in which she appeared but only saw the other models' makeup in real life and is comparing how her makeup looks in the retouched photos to the way she recalled that the other models' makeup looked to her during the shoot.

If the model is comparing the way she looked in the photos to the way the other models looked in real life, that’s comparing apples and oranges to some extent.


Most likely the OP saw her own makeup briefly when it was finished – but there’s no way of knowing whether there were light bulbs all around the mirror or whether there was one light 20 feet behind her. And it’s reasonable to assume that after the makeup was done, the OP spent more time looking at other models (and their makeup) than looking at herself in a mirror during the shoot.

Retouching is just one example of something besides the makeup that could be a factor. Another possibility is the lighting. There is lighting that “enhances” the makeup and lighting that works against it. There’s lighting that requires more retouching and lighting that requires less retouching.

That doesn’t necessarily mean that lighting that requires more retouching is “bad lighting.” When I use a 3-foot silver-lined Octobox without a fabric diffusion panel, I know that it’s going to require more retouching than if I’m using a 4x6-foot softbox with inner and outer diffusion panels.

When I use small strip lights as kickers, I know that they’re likely to cause “excess” skin texture in the areas of the face that they light, largely because of the angle and the strips’ smaller size. But (with exceptions such as beauty shots) the reasons for using a certain type of lighting have more to do with attaining a look or setting a mood than enhancing the makeup and the model’s skin.

Even if multiple models in a photo are lit by the same lights, the lighting will fall on them from different angles, the models likely will be facing different directions, the models’ distances from specific lights will be different, and because of this the lighting ratio (ratio of main light to fill light) will be different – which can cause one model to be lit more harshly than another. And these variables (angles and distances) can change with each pose.

There are other possibilities. For example, age and skin condition could be factors. Or the OP could have stayed up late partying and drinking the night before the shoot. I have no reason to believe that to be the case. It’s just yet another possible explanation.

If a model is wearing a burnt orange (or yellow or green or red or whatever) jacket, for example, light reflected by the garment can cause burnt orange-ish (or yellowish or greenish or reddish or whateverish) color casts on the model’s face – especially if the garment has long sleeves and the model’s hands and arms are near her face.

None of these color casts enhances the skin or makeup, and none of them has much to do with the makeup itself. These pesky color casts are very difficult to get rid of. I’ve seen tutorials – but I haven’t seen a method that works most of the time.

I'm just saying that we shouldn't assume that the OP has been blacklisted by the Makeup Artists Association. If this is something that has happened repeatedly with multiple MUA’s, it’s just possible that there are multiple causes.

May 02 13 06:31 am  Link  Quote 
Model
- Aina -
Posts: 735
Redlands, California, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
For the record, I've had MUAs do horrible makeup on me.

Sometimes they don't have the right color for my skin, or they really suck at color combinations. It looks bad in person, and then when I get the photos, it still looks horrible, and I can only use the b/w.

Still, I would NOT tell them it sucked, and I would NOT touch it or do the makeup myself. Unless I am the creative director for the shoot, that is not my job. It sucks to waste your time and not get good photos, but it isn't worth ruining your rep.

The most I'll do is suggest what might be good for the next look, or say something like, "Hey, my agency actually wants some more natural stuff for my book; do you think we could do something light for the next look?" Etc. Insult the MUA and there's a much better chance that if she does crap, it's personal.

Yes, yes, professionals shouldn't be that petty, and should do their job no matter what the model does, but guess what-- if there are multiple models and limited time, the MUA is probably going to spend more of his/her time on the pleasant people than the unpleasant ones.

This.

May 02 13 06:54 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jennifer Yi
Posts: 30
Los Angeles, California, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:

Wow!  You have a lot of complaints!  I can tell you with the limited experience I have had in the hair/MU industry that your hair is not easy to create the those big loose curls you want and make them stay long enough for the shoot.  Those people doing the "blow outs" are often still in training themselves as the real experienced pros will be doing all the other stuff from cutting to coloring.  A "professional" should be able to do it though.

As a paying photographer, I would not like it if you were changing the make up or hairstyle that I just paid someone to do on you.  It's actually not a good thing that you've admitted to it on this public forum.  You do have a couple choices ... one is to hold your tongue and not say anything, or the other is to talk with the person paying you and the MUA.  What I would want you to do is communicate your concerns with me about it!   

What's the worst that can happen?  Maybe I'll agree with you?  Or maybe the MUA is doing the MU by specific request from me?  Maybe the MUA is testing, or I'm testing the MUA? There can be many reasons.  If I happen to agree with you, then it would be best to approach the MUA in a way to communicate better what the desired "look" is rather than go behind their back changing the make up yourself and not tell them. 

Communication is key!  If you go changing up the hair and/or make up without telling me after I just paid someone to do it, that is one good reason that I will not be calling you back to shoot again.  Either accept what has been done, or ask me to have a discussion about it privately.  Although your input is important to me, you are not the one making the final decision.

k i don't think i have alot of complaints; sorry for trying to share my feelings and experiences....also, i don't have alot of experiences with diff "muas"...only like around a handful and only one was for a paid shoot the rest were for some contests etc

May 02 13 12:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jennifer Yi
Posts: 30
Los Angeles, California, US


Camerosity wrote:
Yes, I saw that. It’s not clear to me whether the OP is saying that the llamas came out of the dressing looking good or that they came out looking good in the photos. Anyway, that doesn't eliminate the possibility that...

...different MUA's worked with different llamas, which in my experience is quite common with groups of llamas (so that llamas don't have to stand around and wait for one MUA to do three other llamas).

...the OP has seen finished photos of the other llamas (possibly the same photos she was in) and is basing her judgment more on how the retouched photos looked than how the makeup looked in person.

...the OP has seen the finished photos in which she appeared but only saw the other llamas' makeup in real life and is comparing how her makeup looks in the retouched photos to the way she recalled that the other llamas' makeup looked to her during the shoot.

If the llama is comparing the way she looked in the photos to the way the other llamas looked in real life, that’s comparing apples and oranges to some extent.


Most likely the OP saw her own makeup briefly when it was finished – but there’s no way of knowing whether there were light bulbs all around the mirror or whether there was one light 20 feet behind her. And it’s reasonable to assume that after the makeup was done, the OP spent more time looking at other llamas (and their makeup) than looking at herself in a mirror during the shoot.

Retouching is just one example of something besides the makeup that could be a factor. Another possibility is the lighting. There is lighting that “enhances” the makeup and lighting that works against it. There’s lighting that requires more retouching and lighting that requires less retouching.

That doesn’t necessarily mean that lighting that requires more retouching is “bad lighting.” When I use a 3-foot silver-lined Octobox without a fabric diffusion panel, I know that it’s going to require more retouching than if I’m using a 4x6-foot softbox with inner and outer diffusion panels.

When I use small strip lights as kickers, I know that they’re likely to cause “excess” skin texture in the areas of the face that they light, largely because of the angle and the strips’ smaller size. But (with exceptions such as beauty shots) the reasons for using a certain type of lighting have more to do with attaining a look or setting a mood than enhancing the makeup and the llama’s skin.

Even if multiple llamas in a photo are lit by the same lights, the lighting will fall on them from different angles, the llamas likely will be facing different directions, the llamas’ distances from specific lights will be different, and because of this the lighting ratio (ratio of main light to fill light) will be different – which can cause one llama to be lit more harshly than another. And these variables (angles and distances) can change with each pose.

There are other possibilities. For example, age and skin condition could be factors. Or the OP could have stayed up late partying and drinking the night before the shoot. I have no reason to believe that to be the case. It’s just yet another possible explanation.

If a llama is wearing a burnt orange (or yellow or green or red or whatever) jacket, fir example, light reflected by the garment can cause burnt orange-ish (or yellowish or greenish or reddish or whatever) color casts on the llama’s face – especially if the garment has long sleeves and the llama’s hands and arms are near her face.

None of these color casts enhances the skin or makeup, and none of them has much to do with the makeup itself. These pesky color casts are very difficult to get rid of. I’ve seen tutorials – but I haven’t seen a method that works most of the time.

I'm just saying that we shouldn't assume that the OP has been blacklisted by the Makeup Artists Association. If this is something that has happened repeatedly with multiple MUA’s, it’s just possible that there are multiple causes.

all the photos in my port the makeup etc were not done by any mua's...

May 02 13 12:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eva Marx
Posts: 40
West Hollywood, California, US


the lonely photographer wrote:
There was a MM  Ben Kanarek  that posts here regularly .. he did a shoot for a high end Magazine in China,  obviously they loved the model since they printed it. The asian model looked sick and pasty to me, but its an editorial with mostly unaffordable fashions (at least to people of my ilk). If they pay you to look like Frankenstein, take the money  and run..

+1

As many, many, many have said already, it's the photographer's vision. I've had MUAs do things to my face that I didn't enjoy looking at, but it's not up to me. If the photographer likes it for his work, that's all that matters.

Even if I look like a trailer trash clown. smile

May 02 13 12:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Abigail Rose Hill
Posts: 538
Newcastle upon Tyne, England, United Kingdom


I recently got given neon green eyes and barbie pink lips, all in the same look. Would I ever do that to myself? No. Is it my place to kick off when every other model got it as well? No. Did I sneakily change it? No.

I was being paid, they could have smeared warpaint on me for all I care. I just have to make it work.
May 02 13 01:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,554
Salinas, California, US


Jennifer Yi wrote:
k i don't think i have alot of complaints; sorry for trying to share my feelings and experiences....also, i don't have alot of experiences with diff "muas"...only like around a handful and only one was for a paid shoot the rest were for some contests etc

Alright, don't be sorry for sharing your feelings.  That's what these forums are for.   I did not know if these were paid shoots or not.   If it's for contests, or TFP, then that makes a difference to me, verses when I'm paying a MUA.  Sometimes I might be paying a MUA, but shooting the model TFP.  I do like to know what the opinion of the model is in those circumstances.  Not everyone is like me though.  If you are being paid, it might be better to not say anything.   I still say that communication is key!

May 02 13 02:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jennifer Yi
Posts: 30
Los Angeles, California, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:

Alright, don't be sorry for sharing your feelings.  That's what these forums are for.   I did not know if these were paid shoots or not.   If it's for contests, or TFP, then that makes a difference to me, verses when I'm paying a MUA.  Sometimes I might be paying a MUA, but shooting the model TFP.  I do like to know what the opinion of the model is in those circumstances.  Not everyone is like me though.  If you are being paid, it might be better to not say anything.   I still say that communication is key!

of course if i being paid then i don't say anything!! because i'm thinking, i doubt the client/photog/etc would want a bad shoot/product/model etc!!~

May 03 13 12:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15,376
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


Patrick Walberg wrote:

Alright, don't be sorry for sharing your feelings.  That's what these forums are for.   I did not know if these were paid shoots or not.   If it's for contests, or TFP, then that makes a difference to me, verses when I'm paying a MUA.  Sometimes I might be paying a MUA, but shooting the model TFP.  I do like to know what the opinion of the model is in those circumstances.  Not everyone is like me though.  If you are being paid, it might be better to not say anything.   I still say that communication is key!

Commissioned or non commissioned the same effort and standards should apply.

May 03 13 02:57 am  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
Tiffany_B
Posts: 1,324
Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, US


Abi Hill wrote:
I recently got given neon green eyes and barbie pink lips, all in the same look. Would I ever do that to myself? No. Is it my place to kick off when every other model got it as well? No. Did I sneakily change it? No.

I was being paid, they could have smeared warpaint on me for all I care. I just have to make it work.

This is the attitude that you're going to have to adopt when you shoot if you're being paid or if the make-up is for a fashion show or other event.

In the event that the shoot is TF* the person who organized it and is acting as the art director usually has final say over things, same goes for when the shoot is an unpaid submission.

In the event that you're paying for the MUA and you're paying for the images or set up the trade then you personally have a little more leeway. If this is the case I suggest that you communicate your vision beforehand and if possible schedule a personal consult including a trial of the look. The MUA may charge for this so be prepared.

Finally, if you truly feel like every MUA is doing something that makes you look/feel unattractive then you may want to truly consider why that is. It could be something as simple as the fact that the make-up may feel heavier on your skin than when you do it, or you may be focusing on how the other models look. I don't really know and honestly only you can answer that question. But I suggest seriously considering it.

May 03 13 07:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Stefano F
Posts: 4
Milan, Lombardy, Italy


Dear Jennifer
When your photographer will learn how to use Photoshop you for sure will looks better.. give a peek to the your picture with the white bikini....... the skin retouchs overcome the tissue lol..
May 03 13 08:43 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Lindsey Sharon
Posts: 306
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada


Patrick Walberg wrote:
I like your style!  As if you can't tell, I'm a communicator.  If the model feels comfortable enough to talk with you directly, that's fine.  I know I just said for the model to talk with me if she has a complaint or issue with her make up, but then I would decide how best to handle it tactfully depending on what the purpose was for the make up in the first place.  Pulling the MUA to the side for a meeting to discuss it, or perhaps nothing needs to be said at all.  If she feels comfortable enough to ask you questions and discuss her thoughts on what you are doing, that's even better!

I want to be an artist people want to work with.  Skills will only get someone so far.  Being open and reasonable will help me get that much farther.

I do however suggest talking to the photographer/creative director as they have the final say in most cases.  If the makeup is really bad, or the artist just doesn't have the skills or experience to see the errors, talking to them may not do much more than upset them.  I'd do the same thing if the model was causing issues.

May 03 13 12:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Lindsey Sharon
Posts: 306
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada


Jennifer,

I apologize.  I had thought that the makeup in your photos was what you were complaining about.  It turns out we are looking at 2 completely different things.  I wish you had mentioned that in your original post.

My history with these kinds of shoots is that it's usually students, hobbyist or people who just aren’t very skilled doing swim suit competitions and things similar due to the fact that people are rarely willing to pay us at this style of events.  The artists are doing it to improve their skills (that's why I did them) or to get photos for their portfolios.  This increases the amount of artists you will be running into that may not know how to work with your eyes or just want photos that show their makeup style regardless of how it affects the photo as a whole.

Although there is the chance the event has brought in skilled, experienced artists, there's a much greater chance you are working with amateurs.  I know of a lot of artists that have never had a chance to work on someone whose race was different from their own and a lot of people who REFUSE to because they don't think they would be able to do it.  I’m not sure how many of your artists have been Asian, but if that amount is low, this may be one of the reasons you haven’t had good luck.

See if you can find a skilled MUA that will TF with you.  Compare how you look after that, but don't judge until you see the finalized photos.  Be open to bit stronger of a look since what you have in your portfolio already is very light.  You have gorgeous cheek bones that would look amazing with a good blusher.
May 03 13 01:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
the lonely photographer
Posts: 1,875
Beverly Hills, California, US


Lynz_Sharon wrote:
Jennifer,

I apologize.  I had thought that the makeup in your photos was what you were complaining about.  It turns out we are looking at 2 completely different things.  I wish you had mentioned that in your original post.

My history with these kinds of shoots is that it's usually students, hobbyist or people who just aren’t very skilled doing swim suit competitions and things similar due to the fact that people are rarely willing to pay us at this style of events.  The artists are doing it to improve their skills (that's why I did them) or to get photos for their portfolios.  This increases the amount of artists you will be running into that may not know how to work with your eyes or just want photos that show their makeup style regardless of how it affects the photo as a whole.

Although there is the chance the event has brought in skilled, experienced artists, there's a much greater chance you are working with amateurs.  I know of a lot of artists that have never had a chance to work on someone whose race was different from their own and a lot of people who REFUSE to because they don't think they would be able to do it.  I’m not sure how many of your artists have been Asian, but if that amount is low, this may be one of the reasons you haven’t had good luck.

See if you can find a skilled MUA that will TF with you.  Compare how you look after that, but don't judge until you see the finalized photos.  Be open to bit stronger of a look since what you have in your portfolio already is very light.  You have gorgeous cheek bones that would look amazing with a good blusher.

Jennifer will find that "right" MUA/HS.

May 03 13 01:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18,091
Orlando, Florida, US


I had some artists do awful jobs  at shoots and I have decided to take on the make up task for all my shoots now because photos end up unusable because no matter if I asked the artist to fix it they were unable to get the result I was looking for.

And for makeup on myself  I paid a MUA to do my makeup and it was awful I have extremely hooded eyes  and they seem to not now how to do makeup that flatters my features some are only used to doing makeup on perfect almond shape eyes.
May 03 13 01:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,554
Salinas, California, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:
Alright, don't be sorry for sharing your feelings.  That's what these forums are for.   I did not know if these were paid shoots or not.   If it's for contests, or TFP, then that makes a difference to me, verses when I'm paying a MUA.  Sometimes I might be paying a MUA, but shooting the model TFP.  I do like to know what the opinion of the model is in those circumstances. Not everyone is like me though.  If you are being paid, it might be better to not say anything.   I still say that communication is key!
c_h_r_i_s wrote:
Commissioned or noncommissioned the same effort and standards should apply.

Chris, I made sure to state that not everyone is like me.  I don't care what the "efforts and standards" are when it comes to hearing honest opinions and critiques.  I do care what models think of a MUA's work.  It does not mean that I will agree with the model.  I just like direct communication if it avoids talking behind backs.

May 03 13 07:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jennifer Yi
Posts: 30
Los Angeles, California, US


Lynz_Sharon wrote:
Jennifer,

I apologize.  I had thought that the makeup in your photos was what you were complaining about.  It turns out we are looking at 2 completely different things.  I wish you had mentioned that in your original post.

My history with these kinds of shoots is that it's usually students, hobbyist or people who just aren’t very skilled doing swim suit competitions and things similar due to the fact that people are rarely willing to pay us at this style of events.  The artists are doing it to improve their skills (that's why I did them) or to get photos for their portfolios.  This increases the amount of artists you will be running into that may not know how to work with your eyes or just want photos that show their makeup style regardless of how it affects the photo as a whole.

Although there is the chance the event has brought in skilled, experienced artists, there's a much greater chance you are working with amateurs.  I know of a lot of artists that have never had a chance to work on someone whose race was different from their own and a lot of people who REFUSE to because they don't think they would be able to do it.  I’m not sure how many of your artists have been Asian, but if that amount is low, this may be one of the reasons you haven’t had good luck.

See if you can find a skilled MUA that will TF with you.  Compare how you look after that, but don't judge until you see the finalized photos.  Be open to bit stronger of a look since what you have in your portfolio already is very light.  You have gorgeous cheek bones that would look amazing with a good blusher.

thanks!! you are so kind!~

May 04 13 11:58 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jennifer Yi
Posts: 30
Los Angeles, California, US


the lonely photographer wrote:

Jennifer will find that "right" MUA/HS.

:-D

May 04 13 11:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BrooklynHill
Posts: 4,790
Los Angeles, California, US


The common denominator is...you. Wait, you're not that ugly hmm
May 04 13 12:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
liddellphoto
Posts: 1,800
London, England, United Kingdom


A lot of women have a pre-conceived idea of how they look and how their makeup should be done and when makeup is done to change that they don't like it. Part of being a llama is realising you are going to be transformed into different looks (whether you think they are 'pretty' or not), being ok with that and acting it in front of the camera.
May 04 13 01:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


liddellphoto wrote:
Part of being a model is realising you are going to be transformed into different looks (whether you think they are 'pretty' or not), being ok with that and acting it in front of the camera.

+1

Although this will come as news to many of the 'models' on this site big_smile




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

May 04 13 02:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,871
Santa Ana, California, US


In studio I primarily shoot tethered, one of the advantages of that is that initially on the first few shots, the MUA can see exactly what the camera sees of her/his work under the actual lighting.

But having said that, although it's useful for little corrections, as long as the makeup area is daylight balanced, a competent MUA won't need that as a crutch. But it's always useful none-the-less.
May 04 13 02:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
NolaChick
Posts: 337
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


I have definitely been in your shoes. I usually stick to a very "simple" look: earthy toned eyes, some light contouring and a red lip. I have dealt with MUAS who decide that THEY are going to be the one to do something different with me. A few weeks ago I had a make up artist actually put black lipstick on me. She said she wanted to do a "gothy" thing with my pale skin. Uh...no. It was wiped off immediately. Unless you are paying me, you are not going to make me look like crap.

I went off on kind of a rant, but my point is; talk to them about what you are looking for as far as your look goes, and unless they are paying you, don't be afraid to speak up and tell them if you don't like what they have done.
May 06 13 11:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
Tiffany_B
Posts: 1,324
Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, US


NolaChick wrote:
I have definitely been in your shoes. I usually stick to a very "simple" look: earthy toned eyes, some light contouring and a red lip. I have dealt with MUAS who decide that THEY are going to be the one to do something different with me. A few weeks ago I had a make up artist actually put black lipstick on me. She said she wanted to do a "gothy" thing with my pale skin. Uh...no. It was wiped off immediately. Unless you are paying me, you are not going to make me look like crap.

I went off on kind of a rant, but my point is; talk to them about what you are looking for as far as your look goes, and unless they are paying you, don't be afraid to speak up and tell them if you don't like what they have done.

I never understand when models have this type of attitude when working with other people in any situation. I understand that when shooting TF you want something that will benefit you but what good is the trade situation to someone else if they're not also getting what they need/want for their own portfolios? Consider that unless you're paying the MUA their job on set isn't simply to do your bidding. Beyond that just because it's not something you'd normally do doesn't mean it'll look bad. If you look in my port there are models in clothes that they'd likely never wear while heading out to get groceries or even for an evening out but each of them understood that as a model the wardrobe wasn't about suiting their personal tastes but about showcasing the work of the designer.

Maybe I'm missing something crucial but it's my understanding that on every set everyone there has a role and while I doubt most models would call into question the way a photographer held their camera there seems to be a lot of opinion/attitude when it comes to the MUAs, hairstylists and wardrobe stylists. Unless someone is doing something unsanitary and/or something that's harming you, your role on set isn't to question the art direction which quite frankly should have been discussed before anyone agreed to do anything. Also if the shoot idea isn't yours to begin with there's also the need to be respectful of the original vision that you agreed to shoot. I know that when I set up shoots I send out detailed information regarding the vision BUT I know enough to know I'm not an MUA or a hairstylist or a photographer and as such tweaks may need to be made on set.

My point is that if a model can't handle not being 100% in control at all times and does things like remove or alter make-up then maybe they shouldn't work in situations where they're not paying everyone to do what they want.

May 07 13 02:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Makeup Hair by Dani B
Posts: 729
Seattle, Washington, US


If I worked with a model who attempted to change or alter my work in any way I would know that person was not a professional and would alert the CD/AD that the model had done so right then. She would not be hired again. Professional models are more concerned with their work than everybody else's in my experience.

Professional MUA/Hs (i.e. those who do it full time and make all their living off of it) are capable and competent regardless of what hair type/texture or skin type/color they are working with. They don't need models to tell them how to do their makeup or hair. Outside of allergies/medications that may affect results, they can figure out the rest without assistance. Just as models don't need the MUA/Hs to suggest poses or techniques. Whether or not a model "likes" the look is irrelevant. As long as the client is happy, that's all that should matter to everyone.

It sounds like the OP is not working with professionals. That probably explains a lot. In which case the OP needs to perhaps be more involved in the next project leading up to the work day, or hire a professional.
May 10 13 09:34 am  Link  Quote 
Model
The Original Sin
Posts: 13,894
Louisville, Kentucky, US


Makeup by Dani B wrote:
If I worked with a model who attempted to change or alter my work in any way I would know that person was not a professional and would alert the CD/AD that the model had done so right then. She would not be hired again. Professional models are more concerned with their work than everybody else's in my experience.

Professional MUA/Hs (i.e. those who do it full time and make all their living off of it) are capable and competent regardless of what hair type/texture or skin type/color they are working with. They don't need models to tell them how to do their makeup or hair. Outside of allergies/medications that may affect results, they can figure out the rest without assistance. Just as models don't need the MUA/Hs to suggest poses or techniques. Whether or not a model "likes" the look is irrelevant. As long as the client is happy, that's all that should matter to everyone.

It sounds like the OP is not working with professionals. That probably explains a lot. In which case the OP needs to perhaps be more involved in the next project leading up to the work day, or hire a professional.

Yeah, this.

If a photographer hires someone to do my face- guess what- THEY do my face.
If I'm specifically trading for something I don't have in my book- I give my MUA free reign and wait to see what happens.
And if I'm paying  an MUA, guess what?  I'm either getting married or I need something very specific for some project that I can't do on my own.  If a model decided to alter what I had asked the MUA to do, she'd be asked to leave the set immediately and I'll just find a new model.

May 10 13 09:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kincaid Blackwood
Posts: 23,319
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Cole Morrison wrote:
if the client is happy, then your own opinion doesnt matter. if you are being paid, your own opinion doesnt matter. you are being paid to perform and showcase their work.
Tiffany_B wrote:
the MUA their job on set isn't simply to do your bidding. 

My point is that if a model can't handle not being 100% in control at all times and does things like remove or alter make-up then maybe they shouldn't work in situations where they're not paying everyone to do what they want.

This is worth seeing again.

May 10 13 09:55 am  Link  Quote 
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