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Photographer
Mad Hatter Imagery
Posts: 1,292
Buffalo, New York, US


I was wondering if most models out there know someone who is willing to edit their photos for them at no cost? I am a photographer that typically does no editing unless for the few images I include eventually in my portfolio. I suspect most models would prefer the photographer give her/him a copy of images that hide her/his flaws, but I am simply not very good at editing. I was wondering if most models know someone to make the changes they desire, or at least do most models prefer getting the original raw image because it would be the most flexible file to work with?
May 02 13 10:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brian Scanlon
Posts: 789
Encino, California, US


If you give that responsibility to the model then who knows what the results are.  No one will assume that the crazy photoshop job was the model's doing, they will assume that it is the doing of the photographer.  Your ultimately responsible for the image.  If your not good at photoshop then strike up a relationship with a retoucher.  There are many aspiring retouchers on this board, reach out to them.  Also work on your basic retouching skill.
May 02 13 10:15 am  Link  Quote 
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3,876
Seattle, Washington, US


No, I don't.  I've worked with very few photographers who would consider letting anyone else retouch their images.

If you want to do photography, you should really learn how to retouch your own images.....at least the basic stuff.
May 02 13 10:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


Some do, but I'd prefer it if they didn't.  If a bad retoucher gets their hands on one of your images, they can make your photography look really bad.
May 02 13 10:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Decay of Memory
Posts: 580
Asheville, North Carolina, US


There's a good number of photographers that would view that as the equivalent of a model being "mobbed up."
May 02 13 10:52 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,243
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I personally dont want raw files and I dont want to have to find a third party to edit for me (or edit myself)

But along that same line I also dont work TF with people who arent going to finish an image unless we're shooting something like polaroids, which is rare.


So, either a) get better at editing, b) be prepared to not shoot very often, and/or c) be ready to hand raw files over and lose all control of what happens to them.
May 02 13 11:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Designit - Edward Olson
Posts: 1,631
Eureka, California, US


Mad Hatter Imagery wrote:
I was wondering if most models out there know someone who is willing to edit their photos for them at no cost? I am a photographer that typically does no editing unless for the few images I include eventually in my portfolio. I suspect most models would prefer the photographer give her/him a copy of images that hide her/his flaws, but I am simply not very good at editing. I was wondering if most models know someone to make the changes they desire, or at least do most models prefer getting the original raw image because it would be the most flexible file to work with?

I think the point is that if you aren't interested in retouching, but don't mind someone else retouching your work, let the models you are working with know that it is okay with you.

Other photographers may not be okay with it but in your case that doesn't matter.

May 02 13 11:17 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


my boyfriend is a photographer, so I always have someone to turn to to edit pictures.

however, I hardly ever do that. The few times I asked him, I made sure I had permission of the photographer first, and showed him the endresult before posting it online, asking if he was okay with it.
May 02 13 11:18 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Dekilah
Posts: 4,883
Detroit, Michigan, US


I have shot with photographers who will hand me a bunch of unedited images and tell me I can do what I want. This has started happening mainly since I started shooting self portraits, for which I do very, very simple editing. I can take out spots, and sometimes I make color/tone/contrast adjustments. But as for real retouching, smoothing, cleaning up the background, and other stuff... I am just not very good at it. And I like my editing style for my self portrait work because it fits with my artistic goals, but when it comes to someone else's photos, even photos of me, I really do not know where to begin.

Which is why I usually post photos as I am given them. If I do not like them as is, I do not use them.
May 02 13 11:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,319
Orlando, Florida, US


Anna Adrielle wrote:
my boyfriend is a photographer, so I always have someone to turn to to edit pictures.

however, I hardly ever do that. The few times I asked him, I made sure I had permission of the photographer first, and showed him the endresult before posting it online, asking if he was okay with it.

And it's a REALLY good idea that if any other models are thinking of doing it, they get permission from the photographer in question.  I would be a little put off if other people were editing my images.  It's happened, and while I'm largely passive aggressive about it, I don't demand they take them down, but I do request that they remove any trace that I had anything to do with the image.

May 02 13 11:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ShotbyRon
Posts: 767
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Well the only way to get good at something is by practice. And even if the model did have someone edit their photos for them, I wouldn't allow it. Good or bad! That is your name out there.
May 02 13 11:37 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Good Egg Productions wrote:

And it's a REALLY good idea that if any other models are thinking of doing it, they get permission from the photographer in question.  I would be a little put off if other people were editing my images.  It's happened, and while I'm largely passive aggressive about it, I don't demand they take them down, but I do request that they remove any trace that I had anything to do with the image.

I've never done that, and I never will wink

May 02 13 11:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,331
Salem, Oregon, US


don't know if i'd say most but i do know that some of my models have editing capability (heck, some have become photographers as well) or friends who edit.

look in the mayhem marketplace for inexpensive retouchers.

and lynda.com and kelbytraining.com are good online resources

it takes a while to get good at retouching but i think it's worth it if you are a photographer so you can have control over the final outcome. it's all about finding a workflow that makes sense for you and learning the basic tools and techniques (healing/cloning/patch and friends). unless you shoot in-camera jpegs with settings cranked pictures can come out kind of flat and need to be punched up (along with possible skin cleaning/smoothing, etc.)

look in retoucher portfolios at the before/afters

there are tools like imagenomic portraiture and portrait professional to help not to mention a zillion tools like radlab and collections from nik (cheap now that google bought them) and alienskin and onone.
May 02 13 11:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,959
Portland, Oregon, US


Mad Hatter Imagery wrote:
I was wondering if most models out there know someone who is willing to edit their photos for them at no cost? I am a photographer that typically does no editing unless for the few images I include eventually in my portfolio. I suspect most models would prefer the photographer give her/him a copy of images that hide her/his flaws, but I am simply not very good at editing. I was wondering if most models know someone to make the changes they desire, or at least do most models prefer getting the original raw image because it would be the most flexible file to work with?

There are more and more models who are pursuing developing retouching skills, especially those that are also developing an interest in photography.

There do seem to be many photographers who are condescending or arrogant towards models by default when it comes to the ability to use Photoshop (or other retouching software), but it really isn't good to prejudge or generalize, because while some have no clue about retouching some are quite skilled at it.

That said, ultimately it is probably safest and you'll have the fewest problems if you keep more control over your images, so if you can develop your retouching skills (or have a working/established relationship with a retoucher) that is less risky option.

May 02 13 12:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eva Marx
Posts: 40
West Hollywood, California, US


I've never gotten raw images alone from photographers. The choice pictures are always retouched, and I may get all the original photos as well.

I wouldn't consider it a good thing for your models to have the responsibility of retouching it themselves or having a friend do it. If they screw it up, it may reflect back on you. sad
May 02 13 12:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mad Hatter Imagery
Posts: 1,292
Buffalo, New York, US


Well the main thing is I know often models complain about how long it takes for photographers to return their image for them (which in many cases is perfectly understandable), so I pride myself in getting them their images quickly. Within a couple days usually. Also when I look at other people's portfolios it occurs to me how easy it is to do a horrible job editing. Particularly when it comes to over sharpening eyes that are not even looking at the camera. It just looks odd, and it seems too common. Something about keeping as much from the raw image as possible appeals to me. I don't like to destroy the cander that was there at the start. If anything I'd prefer to merge together many untouched photos into the same scene to create a collage effect that contains more information that my camera couldn't create in one shot.

How much does a cheap retoucher cost usually? Mind you I don't expect to make any money at all from my work.
May 02 13 12:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LA StarShooter
Posts: 1,819
Los Angeles, California, US


I use Lightroom and Photoshop. Lightroom is Adobe Raw made smoother, with a good filing system for photo collections. You can make your own presets. If after reading previous comments you have become persuaded to master cleaning up images, adjusting exposure, etc. I recommend those two programs. Portrait Professional is barely okay, as far as I'm concerned. Photoshop is really very good. I don't let anyone but me edit the images, unless a client stipulates they wish to use a retoucher.
May 02 13 12:33 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,068
New York, New York, US


There are those who would say that I'm not very good at photoshop (and some who'd say I'm really lousy) but even so I try to give the model a range of pictures that have at least had a basic clean up.  And that's all she's allowed to post as per our agreement.  If there's a picture or two that I've overlooked that she really wants edited, I'm happy to do so for her and on a very few occasions where I've known the model had access to qualified retouching, I've said go ahead, but subject to my final approval.

I've never had a model abuse the privilege.
May 02 13 12:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


DougBPhoto wrote:
There do seem to be many photographers who are condescending or arrogant towards models by default when it comes to the ability to use Photoshop (or other retouching software), but it really isn't good to prejudge or generalize, because while some have no clue about retouching some are quite skilled at it.

It's not condescending or arrogant when it's your name on the image and you find out the model or her buddy just discovered masking and the saturation slider.

I've given permission to one model who asked nicely well in advance and who demonstrated some serious PS chops. I told her to give me credit for the original image and herself for editing. It worked out very nicely.

However, I've got some horror stories about other models deciding to make their images look kewl.

May 02 13 01:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,959
Portland, Oregon, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:
It's not condescending or arrogant when it's your name on the image and you find out the model or her buddy just discovered masking and the saturation slider.

I've given permission to one model who asked nicely well in advance and who demonstrated some serious PS chops. I told her to give me credit for the original image and herself for editing. It worked out very nicely.

However, I've got some horror stories about other models deciding to make their images look kewl.

It is condescending and arrogant to presume/assume that models cannot have retouching skills, which is what I was saying.

Whether your name is on an image or not is a completely different issue to what I was saying about how so many photographers by default think that models don't know what they are doing.

Of course, there are plenty who do not know what they are doing, but to assume that all don't know what they are doing or that a model can't do as good of a job or even a superior job of retouching compared to a photographer is, an arrogant assumption.

The question of if there are models who don't know what they are doing and can utterly butcher an image, that is a completely different issue, as there are, without a doubt those who fall into that category as well... just as there are photographers who don't know what the hell they are doing also.

Those who will butcher things are typically going to do that no matter what you give them.

To assume things about an entire class or group of people based on the worst example and leap to the conclusion of being superior to the entire class, is exactly what I said, judgmental and arrogant.

Bottom line, if you want your images worked on, the person doing so should demonstrate the necessary proficiency to do what is needed, and it does not matter whether that person's label or title is a photographer, retoucher, model, or whatever.

May 02 13 01:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Tiffany Bond
Posts: 76
West Jordan, Utah, US


I prefer to do my own retouching most of the time, so I know I'm getting exactly what I want.
May 02 13 01:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,573
Salinas, California, US


Tiffany Bond wrote:
I prefer to do my own retouching most of the time, so I know I'm getting exactly what I want.

I don't like having to do a lot of retouching, so I enjoy working with models who are good at retouching their own images.  However, I shoot like I did with film in an effort to not have to do much in the way of retouching.  If it's a matter of cropping or color and density corrections, then it's not that big a deal for me to do it.   I have paid MUA's from $75 to $500 to help me avoid having to use Photoshop.  It's worth it to me since I refuse to pay for photoshop ... unless it's a graphic arts piece that I wish to commision.  I want my stuff to come out of the camera looking good ... even raw!

May 02 13 02:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Marlow Rae
Posts: 111
Seattle, Washington, US


I am my own. I was into retouching long before I got into modelling. HOWEVER, permission must always be asked first.
May 02 13 03:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


I've had only one model ask me to give her the original images because she wanted to do the retouching herself.  I actually felt slightly relieved by that because it meant I didn't have to rush to edit the photos, which is often the longest and most tedious part of photography.  However, all of the other models seemed to expect that I would retouch the images before handing them over, and I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.  It would be kind of like a photographer before the prevalence of digital photography and photo-editing software just handing a model a roll of film or slides and telling her to develop them herself.  I just see editing as a standard part of modern digital photography.

Granted, the amount of retouching I do is very limited because, like you, I like to preserve as much of the original image as possible, otherwise I end up feeling more like I'm doing a digital painting than an actual photo.  Mostly I just do some tweaking of the contrast and the color balance, as well as desaturate to create black and white versions of the photos.  I'll also do some airbrushing if the model has some temporary blemishes or something like that, but I keep that to a minimum because I personally hate photos that are airbrushed to hell, like to the point where the model doesn't appear to have any pores or even human skin, but rather appears like some type of synthetic android.
May 03 13 02:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rosey Lee
Posts: 13
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada


I'm actually quite good with photoshop as I did take photography in college, however I've never edited any photos taken by other photographers of me.  Every photographer I've worked with does their own retouching.  I don't know if I'd feel comfortable editing a photographers image, especially since they'd be the ones booking shoots and getting credit for that photo/editing job, in no way does it benefit myself in booking shoots.
May 03 13 07:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
KBKRetouch
Posts: 3
Los Angeles, California, US


I'm actually a model who taught myself how to do retouching. Most photographers I work with retouch my photos for me, but if I worked with a photographer who didn't think they could properly retouch my photos or choose not too I wouldn't mind doing it myself if given the permission.
May 03 13 07:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,309
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I don't want RAWs. I do, however, want retouched photos out of a shoot. It doesn't need to be some crazy changes, just the basic. The people I work with usually provide me with them.
May 04 13 07:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,309
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Orca Bay Images wrote:

It's not condescending or arrogant when it's your name on the image and you find out the model or her buddy just discovered masking and the saturation slider.

I've given permission to one model who asked nicely well in advance and who demonstrated some serious PS chops. I told her to give me credit for the original image and herself for editing. It worked out very nicely.

However, I've got some horror stories about other models deciding to make their images look kewl.

Likewise, some photographers don't have very good PS skills.

May 04 13 07:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Scarlett de la Calle
Posts: 414
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


Mad Hatter Imagery wrote:
I was wondering if most llamas out there know someone who is willing to edit their photos for them at no cost? I am a photographer that typically does no editing unless for the few images I include eventually in my portfolio. I suspect most llamas would prefer the photographer give her/him a copy of images that hide her/his flaws, but I am simply not very good at editing. I was wondering if most llamas know someone to make the changes they desire, or at least do most llamas prefer getting the original raw image because it would be the most flexible file to work with?

I actually have an advanced diploma in graphic design that included photo editing and have worked for llamaing agencies editing for llama comp cards. I however have not photoshopped any images in my port (the photographers have) but if the photographer said that they did not wish to and were find with an outside part (not themselves) doing editing on their work I would do so. I would make sure to credit myself as the post editor though so no one thought that was the work of the photographer as they sometimes like to disassociate themselves from work that is not theirs

May 04 13 07:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Scarlett de la Calle
Posts: 414
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


Mad Hatter Imagery wrote:
Well the main thing is I know often models complain about how long it takes for photographers to return their image for them (which in many cases is perfectly understandable), so I pride myself in getting them their images quickly. Within a couple days usually. Also when I look at other people's portfolios it occurs to me how easy it is to do a horrible job editing. Particularly when it comes to over sharpening eyes that are not even looking at the camera. It just looks odd, and it seems too common. Something about keeping as much from the raw image as possible appeals to me. I don't like to destroy the cander that was there at the start. If anything I'd prefer to merge together many untouched photos into the same scene to create a collage effect that contains more information that my camera couldn't create in one shot.

How much does a cheap retoucher cost usually? Mind you I don't expect to make any money at all from my work.

As a model I do not expect my photos in a couple of weeks especially for TFP. It is nice when a photographer gives a sneak peak (a quick retouch) within the first week but I never expect it. I have waited a few months at time and sometimes photographers hold off on releasing images or sneak peaks because it is for an exhibition or to be released on a special occasion. It can take months for me to see the final photos and I am happy with that and they are usually happy informing me why. If I asked what was happening with my images and a photographer told me "Sorry I am just learning to edit and I want to make sure that they look true to my image" I would respect that and be grateful the photographer is putting that effort in to make it their own. I think you need to give yourself that time to practice rather than relying on someone else to do the work for you especially when you just said up there what you don't like about photos being retouched.

May 04 13 07:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Light Echoes
Posts: 29
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


I've had models ask and the answer is always NO.
May 04 13 08:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Silver Mirage
Posts: 1,560
Plainview, Texas, US


Mad Hatter Imagery wrote:
I was wondering if most models out there know someone who is willing to edit their photos for them at no cost? I am a photographer that typically does no editing unless for the few images I include eventually in my portfolio. I suspect most models would prefer the photographer give her/him a copy of images that hide her/his flaws, but I am simply not very good at editing. I was wondering if most models know someone to make the changes they desire, or at least do most models prefer getting the original raw image because it would be the most flexible file to work with?

Almost everyone these days knows someone who does photoshop. In fact, most of the models I work with have at least minimal editing skills. A few are very good and I don't mind them editing my photos, but a lot of them are anywhere from "not so hot" to awful.

More to the point, if you are going to be a photographer these days you need to get good at editing -- or hire someone who is. You may not choose to do a lot of it -- unless I'm being paid I don't spend my time any but the best photos from a session -- but you have to keep up with the competition.

May 05 13 11:42 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Kelleth
Posts: 2,512
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I have no interest in receiving raw images from photographers.
May 05 13 01:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 2,498
Muncie, Indiana, US


I have zero retouching skills. I know someone who is quite good at photoshop but I would never ask him to work for free. As a photographer you need to know the basics and not depend upon a model to do the work for you.
May 05 13 02:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24,078
Toulon, Provence-Alpes-Côte-d'Azur, France


I've given models the raw files before for them to retouch or have someone retouch. Saves me the issue of working on shots I don't want to do, and it's not like they are going to ruin my image or anything.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com
May 05 13 02:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24,078
Toulon, Provence-Alpes-Côte-d'Azur, France


Orca Bay Images wrote:
It's not condescending or arrogant when it's your name on the image and you find out the model or her buddy just discovered masking and the saturation slider.

I've given permission to one model who asked nicely well in advance and who demonstrated some serious PS chops. I told her to give me credit for the original image and herself for editing. It worked out very nicely.

However, I've got some horror stories about other models deciding to make their images look kewl.

Yes, but a lot of the photographers who make the biggest stink about this are some of the ones who really aren't all that great at retouching or even shooting. It's like they grasp at "these are my images" and "copyright law" to cover up that they really aren't all that creative or produce great images.

If they put that much effort into learning how to retouch and produce good quality work then they wouldn't run into a lot of the crap they complain about.



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

May 05 13 02:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,397
London, England, United Kingdom


Yes, a few and I can do it myself. It's rarely needed though. Most of the time photographers retouch perfectly well and/or are willing to make any minor adjustments I request. Occasionally I offer to do it/have it done if I want a particular picture and the photographer doesn't seem fussed on the image, they are usually fine with it if they get the final say.
May 05 13 02:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Richard Tallent
Posts: 7,092
Beaumont, Texas, US


Mad Hatter Imagery wrote:
I am simply not very good at editing.

Either put in your dues and learn how to do some basic editing (it's not THAT hard), or hire a professional retoucher.

The whole point of sites like these is to get better at your craft, not to pawn your responsibilities off onto the model.

You should respect your own work, not to mention the model's time, enough to see it through to completion.

May 05 13 05:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
GingerMuse
Posts: 369
STUDIO CITY, California, US


yes...MYSELF!
I spent hours and hours and hours teaching myself photoshop.
I am quite proficient in it now and have often edited my own photos (with the photographers permission of course) as well as photos for other photographers and photos that I take of other models.
May 16 13 10:47 pm  Link  Quote 
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