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Photographer
Phil Jones Photography
Posts: 30
Basildon, England, United Kingdom


Models, I'm very interested to know when it's time for you to update your book how do you choose which photographer you would like to work with?

Have you ever paid a photographer to create new images for you or do you always look for a TFP agreement?

I'm a UK photographer who works on commissions and TFP. Any insight you can give me would be much appreciated.
May 09 13 09:58 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Koryn
Posts: 36,193
Boston, Massachusetts, US


I've offered to pay people before. Most never respond.

I found someone I really wanted to shoot with in 2011, and sent a message inquiring about how much he would request for a shoot. I was very polite, and specific about what I was interested in. He responded by saying something along the lines of, "For a model, you can write and spell well," then asked me to friend him on Facebook. I never heard from him again. Not really a very nice person, obviously.

Otherwise, I only did TFP for acquiring portfolio updates, but that is what worked for me. I got more responses, and more interest. I just had to shoot a lot more frequently in other to get useful photos, because with trade, it's about numbers and volume of shoots.
May 09 13 10:19 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,381
London, England, United Kingdom


When i'm working my portfolio is usually being updated all by itself. So neither.

The only time i ever really consciously think 'I need to update my portfolio' is when I haven't been working for a long while. And in those situations i usually just sort something out with someone i've already worked with.
May 09 13 10:45 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Dekilah
Posts: 4,880
Detroit, Michigan, US


Phil Jones Photography wrote:
llamas, I'm very interested to know when it's time for you to update your book how do you choose which photographer you would like to work with?

In the past I would approach someone I was interested in working with and generally offer a trade and we would collaborate on the concept. Or I would simply accept TF offers that looked beneficial to me and most times I got something I could use in my portfolio even if it was not some I had specifically been searching for.

Right now almost all of my portfolio updates with other photographers are via local shooting event called the DEAC (Detroit Erotic Art Collaborative). I schedule one hour (sometimes two hour) slots with a variety of photographers in whatever location has been booked for the event. This gives me two or three updates a year and anything else is just a bonus.

Have you ever paid a photographer to create new images for you or do you always look for a TFP agreement?

I tried to book a photographer or two once back in East TN. But I needed someone who could shoot a specific style/level (I only contacted those who had that style and level in their port) and who had access to a good MUA. I got very few responses and of the ones who did, they either did not have access to a good MUA or were dealing with wedding season or personal concerns.

I think llamas in general can be a poor source of income for photographers because many of us either cannot afford the investment (no matter how beneficial it might be), or we just do not need to pay for portfolio updates. Some newer llamas who have outside financial income or very successful llamas looking to shoot with very skilled photographers are probably the two more common instances llamas paying photographers, though I am sure there are other cases as well.

May 09 13 11:03 am  Link  Quote 
Model
B R E N N A N
Posts: 4,093
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


Phil Jones Photography wrote:
Models, I'm very interested to know when it's time for you to update your book how do you choose which photographer you would like to work with?

Someone who can deliver what I need and has a relatively quick turnaround time on images.

Have you ever paid a photographer to create new images for you or do you always look for a TFP agreement?

Yes, and I still do when it's time to update my book. Solid commercial work is impossible to come by on a trade basis, and I've found it's much easier to just hire someone than dick around trying to tf for something very specific that isn't likely to benefit the photographer.

I'm a UK photographer who works on commissions and TFP. Any insight you can give me would be much appreciated.

Models aren't exactly a wealthy demographic; very, very few people do well shooting models alone.

May 09 13 11:13 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Sarah Lynn Modeling
Posts: 140
Asheville, North Carolina, US


I pay for shoots under certain circumstances:
1.  It's an excellent, talented photographer that can make gorgeous images that will benefit my portfolio and the photographer doesn't do TF.
2.  The shoot is my idea and I'm wanting the photos for personal reasons (for example, I wanted to do a shoot with my horse, I didn't feel right NOT paying a photographer to take those images even though he may have benefited from them).

I really believe that a lot of models could benefit from paying a really amazing photographer to take their photos. 

When choosing a photographer to pay to update my portfolio, I choose based on the images in his or her portfolio and that person's experience.  There is one photographer I'm particularly impressed with where I live.  She is a fantastic photographer for new models because she knows exactly how pose women to get their best angles, and as part of her photography fee, it also includes hair and makeup services.  Her before and after shots are stunning.  She charges a lot of money, but for a new model, I think it's money well spent.  Not only will a model get fantastic photos from a good photographer, but also a lesson in posing and angles.
May 09 13 11:34 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 2,435
Muncie, Indiana, US


I have never paid a photographer for a photoshoot. I suppose I would if I thought they were fantastic and I had the money.

I have worked TF in the past, just not lately.

It's really not all that complicated.
May 09 13 01:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Courtney Virginia
Posts: 201
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Before I knew about this website I payed for pictures. I guess you have to start somewhere.

I certainly never would do it again.
May 09 13 01:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Phil Jones Photography
Posts: 30
Basildon, England, United Kingdom


Thanks so much to you all for your feedback.

In my experience it has been new models who pay for photoshoots who want to kick start their career. Most of the models I have worked with are signed with agencies and they just happen to be on MM too.

I was very interested to read your replies. I know working models who update their portfolio through working, they also want a certain image so test or organise TFP shoots.

I've made some fantastic friendships with models who I keep in contact with on a regular basis and feel very privileged when they ask me to work with them again to create a particular image for their portfolio.

I love helping models build their portfolio's and I'm very passionate about creating quality images in a commercial style. I'm also very keen to explore new areas and produce very creative work. My speciality is People and Lifestyles and lifestyle shots are what a lot of UK agencies seem to be asking for at the moment.

Hypothetically speaking, would you ask me to create images for you? Be honest! smile
May 09 13 02:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Meghan Hale
Posts: 335
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada


I've never paid and never will. I'm a model and I think I can help a photographer benefit his portfolio as well, so I always do TFP.

But I honestly would work with you in a heartbeat.
May 09 13 02:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Devereaux
Posts: 603
Portland, Oregon, US


Simple - if the model wants to use them commercially outside of their portfolio and self marketing - then they should pay like any other client.
May 09 13 02:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Lynn Elizabeth
Posts: 1,336
Coral Springs, Florida, US


When I first decided to get into modeling I paid photographers in order to build a portfolio. Which I suggest to all new models just starting out.

Since then I have not paid a photographer. If I was to rebuild my portfolio I put up a TFP casting and see where that goes. I don't have much as far as income so paying is difficult. However, if I did have the money there are a bunch of photographers I would love to work with that don't shoot my look for trade. I completely understand that and I would not expect or demand anything different.

But if I am paying I would work with a photographer that had a MUA that had great work as well.
May 09 13 02:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Twila Jean
Posts: 56
Portland, Oregon, US


I have had friends pay for shoots when they were starting out to get a solid portfolio started... and it benefited them greatly. I got really lucky and had a photographer friend who needed my help on a project so, I got my start for free.

I have a short list of photographers I would pay if I were in their area.. but they are regularly published ... and thats sort of my aim wink
May 09 13 02:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,628
Los Angeles, California, US


B R E N N A N wrote:

Phil Jones Photography wrote:
Models, I'm very interested to know when it's time for you to update your book how do you choose which photographer you would like to work with?

Someone who can deliver what I need and has a relatively quick turnaround time on images.

Have you ever paid a photographer to create new images for you or do you always look for a TFP agreement?

Yes, and I still do when it's time to update my book. Solid commercial work is impossible to come by on a trade basis, and I've found it's much easier to just hire someone than dick around trying to tf for something very specific that isn't likely to benefit the photographer.


Models aren't exactly a wealthy demographic; very, very few people do well shooting models alone.

All of this.

I pay when I want more control. Control over what the images are, when (and if) I receive them, etc.

May 09 13 03:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
James Ogilvie
Posts: 6,643
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Interesting thread!
May 09 13 03:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Devereaux
Posts: 603
Portland, Oregon, US


Twila Jean wrote:
I have had friends pay for shoots when they were starting out to get a solid portfolio started... and it benefited them greatly. I got really lucky and had a photographer friend who needed my help on a project so, I got my start for free.

I have a short list of photographers I would pay if I were in their area.. but they are regularly published ... and thats sort of my aim wink

Twila, you nailed it on the head. If the photographer has the skills, look and publicity that you absolutely must have in your portfolio paying them to get the images you want. You are the customer then and deserve it. That said, it is the same for photographers, if I am not paying the model then if the model fails to deliver on hair, skin, posing or anything else I, as a photographer, just need to suck it up and hire a professional paid model next time.

May 09 13 03:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,545
Salinas, California, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
I pay when I want more control. Control over what the images are, when (and if) I receive them, etc.

Exactly!  Especially before the Internet, I've been paid by models when they are starting out and need to create a portfolio.  I still get some of those jobs, but I also have gotten paid rather well for shooting content for models who own their websites.  Since I have websites too, I like to pay models for their work.  I am also happy to TFP with those models I enjoy working with and am willing to share the use of the images with.  With trade, I give what I feel is representative of our shoot, but not more than that.  When I pay models, I might still give "use" of images, but I feel less obligated to provide as much.  If you pay me, you will receive the images for sure!  Most of the models I've worked with would say I am very generous.  wink

May 09 13 03:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
NicoleNudes
Posts: 3,801
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I've paid photographers before.

If I really really really want to work with them, know their work is going to improve my portfolio, they don't want to TF with me/only do paid work and their rate is reasonable and something I can afford; I pay them.

My thing is, photographers pay me all the time to shoot. So if it's someone that I want to work with and they are only shooting paid work and I can afford their rate, why not pay them?

I'll never understand the people who say, "I'll never pay!"

Even if modeling is your hobby - hobbys cost money. I just paid $200 to pay soccer for the summer. If it's something you enjoy and someone you want to work with, I don't see the problem in investing in it and getting something you want and would be worthwhile out of it.

I've paid people to make my portfolio better - which in turn makes other people pay me because they see those photos and want to hire me.
May 09 13 04:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8,095
Tucson, Arizona, US


I payed for my very first one. It was a well known, awesome photographer and it was worth it. There are a few I'd pay if I had the funds, but I'm a poor college student.
May 09 13 04:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Wynd Mulysa
Posts: 8,597
Berkeley, California, US


99% of the shoots I have done in the past seven years have been with photographers paying me.  I have done less than ten TF* shoots.  I have never paid a photographer.

It doesn't seem like I need to.  hmm.  [Even if my portfolio isn't the best, it is getting me consistent work.]
May 09 13 05:14 pm  Link  Quote 
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Model
Koryn
Posts: 36,193
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Phil Jones Photography wrote:
In my experience it has been new models who pay for photoshoots who want to kick start their career. .

My personal experience has been the opposite. When I was new to photography modeling (I'd already been a studio art model for years prior to doing photo shoots), I got much more benefit from TFP, than I was able to after I'd shot professionally for several years.

By the time I was weighing the decision to "retire" from modeling, I was finding that I NEEDED to pay people to get portfolio updates, because the trade I could get was staying at about the same level, while my own skill level had continued to grow and change. 3-4 years in was when I needed to find someone to pay to shoot me the most. Prior to that, I could still manage to "trade up." It would have taken paying a few people to make that next level change up for me, in terms of work quality and portfolio advancement.

In general though, that was the point where I found people who were on the next tier up in skill level (people I would feel justified to pay), were mostly disinterested in shooting me -- with or without financial compensation.

I think, mostly, if someone doesn't want to shoot you for TFP, they won't be particularly interested in shooting you for a couple hundred bucks either. *shrug*

May 09 13 05:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
B R E N N A N
Posts: 4,093
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


James Ogilvie wrote:
Interesting thread!

Indeed. The caliber of the portfolios between the "I have paid/would pay" and the "would never pay" is interesting as well.

May 09 13 05:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BIP
Posts: 3,691
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


courtney virginia  wrote:
Before I knew about this website I payed for pictures. I guess you have to start somewhere.

I certainly never would do it again.
courtney virginia  wrote:
Before I knew about this website I payed for pictures. I guess you have to start somewhere.

I certainly never would do it again.

You could definitely benefit from working with better photographers
An you may need to pay them
I am not awesome but I get paid by models regularly to start or update there portfolios
True some super models never paid anyone, but lots of top level working models have paid along the way
Anyone who thinks they are too good to pay another creative talent will only limit there own potential

May 09 13 05:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Paige Morgan
Posts: 4,058
New York, New York, US


I've paid photographers in the past and will do so again in the future.

I have very specific needs for my portfolio from time to time, and paying a team who are very well versed in things that meet those needs is a worthwhile investment.

I can control the end result/art direct a bit as a client, and make sure to get precisely what my book is missing at the time, from top flight talents in those areas.

Trades are collaborations, and everyone involved needs to be considered for the maximum benefit of all parties.

When hiring, my individual image needs can take priority.
May 09 13 05:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LaurensAntoine 4 FHM
Posts: 339
San Diego, California, US


Meghan Hale wrote:
I've never paid and never will. I'm a model and I think I can help a photographer benefit his portfolio as well, so I always do TFP.

But I honestly would work with you in a heartbeat.

That's reasonable logic is you aren't working on becoming a professional model. But you'll only shoot with photographers that can benefit from you being in their book.

May 09 13 05:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BIP
Posts: 3,691
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Paige Morgan wrote:
I've paid photographers in the past and will do so again in the future.

I have very specific needs for my portfolio from time to time, and paying a team who are very well versed in things that meet those needs is a worthwhile investment.

I can control the end result/art direct a bit as a client, and make sure to get precisely what my book is missing at the time, from top flight talents in those areas.

Trades are collaborations, and everyone involved needs to be considered for the maximum benefit of all parties.

When hiring, my individual image needs can take priority.

Well said!

May 09 13 05:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
NYMPH
Posts: 615
Oakland, California, US


Not I, said the Nymph. Even when I was a wee little beginner, I stubbornly traded and worked with the best people I could.
May 09 13 05:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
255 West
Posts: 6,468
New York, New York, US


Meghan Hale wrote:
I've never paid and never will. I'm a model and I think I can help a photographer benefit his portfolio as well, so I always do TFP.

But I honestly would work with you in a heartbeat.

Interesting that I feel the same of myself. I'd guess most photographers with any experience would too.
I've seen models who admit to absolutely no experience modeling whatsoever, yet list that they only work for pay. I pass them over as clueless (or with out-of-touch-with-reality (aka daft) high opinions of themselves).

May 09 13 06:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,032
New York, New York, US


I've seen a lot of models pages state that they would never pay a photographer. I pass them on. Next.  That's a Diva in my opinion. For those that do and would consider hiring a photographer, even if it's not me, KUDOS!
May 09 13 06:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Meghan Hale
Posts: 335
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada


Some people have been claiming that me saying I'd never pay a photographer was a bit.... rude? But I am a 16 year old girl without a real job (though I am looking) so I cannot afford one even if I wanted to. But in the future I would. Just no time soon.
May 09 13 06:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Marissa St Claire
Posts: 98
Eugene, Oregon, US


I have not and will never pay a photographer. I do trade work or paid work. If the photographer is great or in a position that they can't offer money then I'm always up for a trade. Otherwise I require money for my time.

I understand that photographers have to put a lot of money into their equipment - however if they ask us to come shoot I expect something out of it. They have the rights to the photos and could sell every single good shot - so photographers who say they can't make money off photography and then expect to get paid for their time are just lame to me.

I get it when a photographer does things like wedding photography or senior portrait work because that is a job but that's the exception and I wouldn't go to that type of photographer to help me update anyways.
May 10 13 01:05 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Erica Jay
Posts: 151
New York, New York, US


Never have.
May 10 13 01:11 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Scarlett de la Calle
Posts: 414
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


I paid when I first started out it was the only way to get GOOD photographers interested in TFP
May 10 13 01:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Phil Jones Photography
Posts: 30
Basildon, England, United Kingdom


NicoleNudes wrote:
Even if modeling is your hobby - hobbys cost money. I just paid $200 to pay soccer for the summer. If it's something you enjoy and someone you want to work with, I don't see the problem in investing in it and getting something you want and would be worthwhile out of it.

This is something that is said to me a lot by friends and family, especially when I work for TFP and they find it hard to understand why I work for free.

Interesting that all the feedback so far is from models based in the USA and Canada, no UK models where I'm based.

Thanks for the feedback and being so open and honest. I'll make sure I will have a look at everyones portfolio soon so I can see the quality and type of images you have in your portfolio.

May 10 13 01:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Oscar Partida
Posts: 730
San Diego, California, US


B R E N N A N wrote:

Indeed. The caliber of the portfolios between the "I have paid/would pay" and the "would never pay" is interesting as well.

Definitely

May 10 13 01:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Drew Smith Photography
Posts: 5,209
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom


B R E N N A N wrote:

Indeed. The caliber of the portfolios between the "I have paid/would pay" and the "would never pay" is interesting as well.

borat

Yes, isn't it ironic.

May 10 13 01:55 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Cre8tvegrl
Posts: 969
Honolulu, Hawaii, US


i've only been doing this for about a little less than a year now. i've paid one photographer, been paid by many, and have a few photographers in mind that i would definitely pay to work with. No one wins when EVERYONE is participating TF. Photographers and models, both, can't make a living shooting. i truly believe that in order for photog/model economy to be maintained, money must be exchanged someplace, and that we should all be willing to pay according to certain rules:

If a photographer has more publications, a larger social network, a better portfolio (to include credits), and really knows her/his equipment, then the model can rely on her/him to produce photos of great quality, even if the poses, wardrobe, or environment aren't superb.

If a model "has a name" in the industry, knows her/his best angles, what poses best suit her/his body type, and how to work with items presented in the environment, then inexperienced photographers can count on the model to give them a few good shots in less than ideal lighting or camera settings.

Money goes in the direction of the individual who is delving out the production. wink
May 10 13 02:19 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


I do one good paid test every year, to update my book with the kind of thing I just can't get tf at that quality. The rest is tf, and pictures from booked work smile
(agencymodel)
May 10 13 02:37 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Scarlett de la Calle
Posts: 414
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


NicoleNudes wrote:
I've paid photographers before.

If I really really really want to work with them, know their work is going to improve my portfolio, they don't want to TF with me/only do paid work and their rate is reasonable and something I can afford; I pay them.

My thing is, photographers pay me all the time to shoot. So if it's someone that I want to work with and they are only shooting paid work and I can afford their rate, why not pay them?

I'll never understand the people who say, "I'll never pay!"

Even if modeling is your hobby - hobbys cost money. I just paid $200 to pay soccer for the summer. If it's something you enjoy and someone you want to work with, I don't see the problem in investing in it and getting something you want and would be worthwhile out of it.

I've paid people to make my portfolio better - which in turn makes other people pay me because they see those photos and want to hire me.

agree with this I am looking to possibly pay a photographer on whom I love who may be traveling to my area (aslong as he isn't getting here while I am overseas.

He isn't offering TFP only offers TFP for his exhibitions which he has completed shooting for for his current one and is amazing with his lighting. If I was just like "I will never pay" I loose out on that opportunity. I also agree that it should be an investment I currently put $400 down for a 2 day hair course with an award winning hairstylist and I am going to pay a MAU that often work with and works really well with my skin tone to take me through a few makeup workshops so I am able to provide professional makeup when traveling. Models will pay photographers but not as often as photographers probably want. I find a few photographers benefit from shooting with me because my friends ask me to recommend photographers to go to for personal shoots.

May 10 13 02:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Julian W I L D E
Posts: 1,811
Los Angeles, California, US


When models say "I've never paid for a photographer,"  I usually always agree, after looking at their port.   ;-)
May 10 13 02:46 am  Link  Quote 
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