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Model
Me_LanieLove
Posts: 5
Irvine, California, US


Okay everyone, models and photographers, I want to know your opinion on a certain situation that has happened to me recently.

A paid (body paint) photo shoot is scheduled, model shows up on time, shoot starts on time, everything goes greatly, and everyone is happy.

Model is promised copies of photos within the next week. Not on a cd, not via email, but via message on Facebook because the files are "too big" for any other method. This is agreed upon and both part ways.

Photographer loves the model SO much that he'd just love to shoot with her again while not having to pay next time.  He asks and asks again for her availability to do this although he's been turned down due to paid shoots being prioritized.

A week goes by and model asks when photos will be ready. Photographer then proceeds to tell her that his computer crashed and that he didn't back up the files. He then asks if she would be able to re-shoot all of the content.

Now without knowing what model chose to do, what is your reaction? What do you do, model? Photographer, who's fault is it and what is expected of them? And as a photographer, what are your exact words to the model? I'm just dying to know other opinions on this and whether I was wrong in my reaction.

Thanks in advance!
May 14 13 08:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
T-D-L
Posts: 9,985
Los Angeles, California, US


Well, it sucks...but it does happen.  Model was paid so it wasn't a complete loss.  Move on and get over it would be my advice to said model.
May 14 13 08:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
udor
Posts: 21,043
New York, New York, US


Me_LanieLove wrote:
A week goes by and model asks when photos will be ready. Photographer then proceeds to tell her that his computer crashed and that he didn't back up the files. He then asks if she would be able to re-shoot all of the content.

Don't assume ill-will!

Shit happens!

Last year in April... my external hard drive crashed with 650 GB photos, about a week or two before I wanted to get a back up drive...

Lost it ALL!!!

Even real specialists couldn't recover the files...

May 14 13 08:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photoguy35
Posts: 895
Goodyear, Arizona, US


Usual question  - were the images part of the shoot agreement?  If they were, photographer should compensate the model for the reshoot time or lost images.  If they were a nice gesture (money, not money and prints, was the agreed to compensation for the model), then its a toss up as to whether you think a reshoot is in your best interests (pics looked awesome, great concept, etc).

Also, since its only been a week or two, the photographer may still have the images on the original CF/SD cards from the camera.  I know I tend to not erase the camera cards until I need to, just in case there is a computer crash after a shoot but before a periodic backup.
May 14 13 08:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
A N D E R S O N
Posts: 2,553
Garden Grove, California, US


Well if the model was paid their full rate I don't think they should expect images, unless it was a reduced rate + images, or images were promised in the initial deal. Not a "oh I love these so far, I'll totally send them to you!" during the shoot. Maybe the photographers lighting or some other technical aspect was off during the shoot and after a closer look in post nothing was usable, it happens when you take risks and try something new. If the photographer was paid then they definitely owe a re-shoot or money back. Sending retouched images via Facebook is very odd to me...
May 14 13 08:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RennsportPhotography
Posts: 17,936
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US


Accidents do happen... that is the reason for backups and redundancy and lots of memory cards.
May 14 13 08:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hi_Spade Photography
Posts: 797
Darlington, South Carolina, US


A N D E R S O N wrote:
Well if the model was paid their full rate I don't think they should expect images, unless it was a reduced rate + images, or images were promised in the initial deal. Not a "oh I love these so far, I'll totally send them to you!" during the shoot. Maybe the photographers lighting or some other technical aspect was off during the shoot and after a closer look in post nothing was usable, it happens when you take risks and try something new. If the photographer was paid then they definitely owe a re-shoot or money back. Sending retouched images via Facebook is very odd to me...

+1.

May 14 13 08:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 31,696
Lodi, California, US


Shit happens, but the photographer should prepare for it.

I tend to split a shoot across several cards, in case a card goes bad. And once the images are uploaded to my PC, I don't work on any of the images before I do a full backup of the set onto another hard drive.


Me_LanieLove wrote:
Not on a cd, not via email, but via message on Facebook because the files are "too big" for any other method.

That's absolute nonsense.

May 14 13 08:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
C2C Images
Posts: 40
Naples, Campania, Italy


The photographer insistence on using FB necause the image files are too big makes him either a liar or an idiot!   I am therefore doubting the loss of images as well.
May 14 13 08:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Paul Ferris
Posts: 3,490
New York, New York, US


Yeah the files too big for CD but not too big for Facebook seems a bit fishy as well.
May 14 13 09:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
zaxpix
Posts: 1,988
New Brunswick, New Jersey, US


Hard drives do seem to die ignoble deaths at the most inopportune of times. If he hasn't overwritten the memory card, there are apps to recover those files, but after reading this..

Me_LanieLove wrote:
Photographer loves the model SO much that he'd just love to shoot with her again while not having to pay next time.  He asks and asks again for her availability to do this although he's been turned down due to paid shoots being prioritized.

Not your fault that the files were "lost." Quote him your regular rate and see if he still loves you, SO much.

Z.

May 14 13 09:09 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 33,551
San Francisco, California, US


Sometimes things go wrong ... what do they say; "The best laid plans ..."
May 14 13 09:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 14,722
Orlando, Florida, US


Why not reshoot for the same rate he paid you the first time??  Seems like that's the best compromise.
May 14 13 09:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
allison mindy
Posts: 1,495
New York, New York, US


I've had this happen. The photographer rehired me for a reshoot so it worked out well on my end.
May 14 13 09:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
NicoleNudes
Posts: 3,729
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Good Egg Productions wrote:
Why not reshoot for the same rate he paid you the first time??  Seems like that's the best compromise.

this

May 14 13 09:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Charger Photography
Posts: 1,700
San Antonio, Texas, US


C2C Images wrote:
The photographer insistence on using FB necause the image files are too big makes him either a liar or an idiot!   I am therefore doubting the loss of images as well.

+1000

May 14 13 09:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


From what you wrote it sounds like the photographer had a problem with rejection. Not only did he want to shoot with you again he wanted to shoot for free and you turned him down which is your right so now his right is to not give you anything in return. Sounds to me you should have yes to reshooting with this photographer gotten your images and your pay then then given him the cold shoulder. Live and learn.
May 14 13 09:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
37photog
Posts: 692
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Brutally honest??   The photographer sounds like a wuss.  Does his paid shoot, asks to FB friend the model so he can send the images (WTF) cause they're too big to send otherwise?!  Gee, I didn't realize Facebook outdid Dropbox.com in file sending. Then, he asks to do more shoots with the model TFP and when she turns him down, he claims his computer crashes & he lost all the files & must no longer have them on his card still either.

Sure, it happens.  And models grandmothers do pass away the mornings of shoots, or their cars won't start, babysitters sick etc.

Point is, only you really know all the details of how the photog was at the shoot, how he worded the fact he wanted to FB you, and how he stated his computer crashed & was he more pissed off that his PC crashed & he lost all his stuff, or was he just "Oh my computer crashed & I no longer have the files".  That said, he sounds like he's just salty he got turned down & wanted a friend, not a shoot.

To answer more about your questions specifically, what should you do??  Well, sounds like a worthless fight. You probably aren't going to receive them, I'd just let it go.  That, or call him on the carpet about being salty about not shooting for free, but really just take the high road (my guess is you didn'twink.   As a photographer, what would I do?  Well, I'd be SOL.  But I'd also be pissed off my entire PC & stuff is gone, and need to pay good loot for a new one. Plus I'd be apologetic that I lost what work we had, but that would be a lesser concern of mine in the big picture.
May 14 13 09:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,064
Portland, Oregon, US


Me_LanieLove wrote:
Okay everyone, models and photographers, I want to know your opinion on a certain situation that has happened to me recently.

A paid (body paint) photo shoot is scheduled, model shows up on time, shoot starts on time, everything goes greatly, and everyone is happy.

Model is promised copies of photos within the next week. Not on a cd, not via email, but via message on Facebook because the files are "too big" for any other method. This is agreed upon and both part ways.

Photographer loves the model SO much that he'd just love to shoot with her again while not having to pay next time.  He asks and asks again for her availability to do this although he's been turned down due to paid shoots being prioritized.

A week goes by and model asks when photos will be ready. Photographer then proceeds to tell her that his computer crashed and that he didn't back up the files. He then asks if she would be able to re-shoot all of the content.

Now without knowing what model chose to do, what is your reaction? What do you do, model? Photographer, who's fault is it and what is expected of them? And as a photographer, what are your exact words to the model? I'm just dying to know other opinions on this and whether I was wrong in my reaction.

Thanks in advance!

My reactions:

1) Unless specifically part of the payment, receiving photos from a paid shoot is a perk, a bonus.  Were these photos promised as compensation or as gift/bonus/thank you?

The answer to would determine if the lack of photos is simply disappointing, an accidental breach of the agreement, or intentional breach.

2) Photos to be delivered by Facebook because the file are too big for any other method.  PURE bullshit.  One of the most ridiculous things I've heard in years.  That one statement alone makes me question someone's credibility and if serious, strongly suggests they don't know WTF they are talking about.

3) Computer crashes do happen, and backups are not always done as quickly/timely as they should be.  It does happen, so not that far fetched.

4) Photographer asking for free shoot and being turned down, then computer magically fails is quite coincidental, but it should not be very tough to see if photos from that shoot magically appear online.

As others have said, a reshoot should be paid again at the same rate OR if the photos were to be part of the compensation, then perhaps a higher rate due prior issues with delivery of photos.

Sounds like photographer was butthurt that the model would not agree to another shoot for free, somehow thought needing to redo would fix the problem, not realizing it makes photographer look even more shady.

Given the information presented, I would presume the model would decide to only work with the photographer in the future for full pay, or would either stop working with the photographer all together.

As to the other question "who's fault is it"...   whose fault for what?

May 14 13 10:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christy Yarbrough
Posts: 42
Huntsville, Alabama, US


There is a lot going on here and some of it sounds fishy. The files would never be to big for a disk or thumb drive and you be able to post the on Facebook. Facebook is such a unreliable source to get copies of your work.

I lost a whole shoot one time, the same way. Ran a recover program (that I downloaded free by the way) the next day and recovered all my lost files in a few hours. It was amazing. After that, I am always more careful.  So there are ways of recovering lost files.

I do hope you did not re-shoot for free though. I would never redo a shoot. I would simply write it down as a lesson learned, take my money and move on.

But I do hate this happen to you, It is always heart breaking not to get copies of work you have done.  Best of Luck.
May 14 13 10:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
White Lace Studios
Posts: 1,719
Mesa, Arizona, US


I guess I am confused. The photographer paid the model. Pics were part of the agreement (hoping the rate was reduced - but their arrangement, fine.).

So model is paid
photog, for whatever reason, lost the images
Model wants a reshoot, to be paid (again) so she can get the images.

Am I reading this wrong?

If the photog was paid, then I would reshoot at my expense.

If I paid the model, I wouldn't have promised images to begin with (she was paid), but let's say I did. I wouldn't pay her again so just I could give her the images.
May 14 13 10:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photographer Tim
Posts: 173
Saint Michael, Minnesota, US


Photographer here... I would have hard UN-deniable proof of professionals attempt to retrieve my data from my "crashed" computer. More times than not it is not really lost. It is just addressed wrong. I have a son that does computer security. I asked him  "If I want to ensure no one can get info off my old disc can I drive a nail through it and feel safe?".....response "Just one nail?". So there is that part. Also the Facebook crap....is crap. And even if his computer burned to the ground, good recovery people could get files off his camera discs even if they have been shot over or formatted. Plus and here is the big one. any photographer that does not back up on and again off site....is a GWC...guy with camera. Make him pay for your time AND re-shoot. Models that do not show up for me...never work in the state again or pay my time @ $60 an hour.
May 14 13 10:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photographer Tim
Posts: 173
Saint Michael, Minnesota, US


Time lost to re shoot is still time and should be paid by the party that screwed up. Plus all other incidental expenses
May 14 13 10:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
T-D-L
Posts: 9,985
Los Angeles, California, US


Just a thought, but maybe when they said they'd deliver the images via facebook they didn't mean actually upload and send that way....

I actually send models files all the time via facebook....although technically it's a hidden link on my website with a zip of the files, but I do use facebook for communication as it's easier for me than email in the grand scheme of things.
May 14 13 10:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The Shoeplay Warehouse
Posts: 66
Washington, District of Columbia, US


I had this happen to me twice. My memory card, after two shoots on the same day, overheated and all the data was lost. I couldn't even get the bloody thing to operate.

It lost me some good people too. But, forward unto the horizon I say.

However there are free online storage spaces where he could link you the photos and you can download them.

Uploading.com is one I OFTEN use. Just don't go above their 1 gb  free limit per file.
May 14 13 11:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KonstantKarma
Posts: 2,512
Hickory, North Carolina, US


Shit does happen. The photos should not be erased off the memory card until they're backed up in multiple locations. A broken or corrupted CF card before download is possible. I myself purchased a USB card reader that corrupted the CF card (reliably, I tried it more than once) when plugging it in.

But the facebook thing is wtf; uploading multiple large files through FB is not the smartest way to go about it. Ergo, there is weirdness.

At least you were paid. Pay some bills with it and move on, and given the lost images and the facebook comment, wouldn't work with him again.
May 14 13 11:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,064
Portland, Oregon, US


White Lace Studios wrote:
I guess I am confused. The photographer paid the model. Pics were part of the agreement (hoping the rate was reduced - but their arrangement, fine.).

So model is paid
photog, for whatever reason, lost the images
Model wants a reshoot, to be paid (again) so she can get the images.


Am I reading this wrong?

If the photog was paid, then I would reshoot at my expense.

If I paid the model, I wouldn't have promised images to begin with (she was paid), but let's say I did. I wouldn't pay her again so just I could give her the images.

I'm guessing you are reading it wrong, as the OP stated:

He then asks if she would be able to re-shoot all of the content.

However, I could be reading it wrong. wink

May 15 13 12:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 41,713
Salinas, California, US


Me_LanieLove wrote:
Okay everyone, models and photographers, I want to know your opinion on a certain situation that has happened to me recently.

A paid (body paint) photo shoot is scheduled, model shows up on time, shoot starts on time, everything goes greatly, and everyone is happy.

Model is promised copies of photos within the next week. Not on a cd, not via email, but via message on Facebook because the files are "too big" for any other method. This is agreed upon and both part ways.

Photographer loves the model SO much that he'd just love to shoot with her again while not having to pay next time.  He asks and asks again for her availability to do this although he's been turned down due to paid shoots being prioritized.

A week goes by and model asks when photos will be ready. Photographer then proceeds to tell her that his computer crashed and that he didn't back up the files. He then asks if she would be able to re-shoot all of the content.

Now without knowing what model chose to do, what is your reaction? What do you do, model? Photographer, who's fault is it and what is expected of them? And as a photographer, what are your exact words to the model? I'm just dying to know other opinions on this and whether I was wrong in my reaction.

Thanks in advance!

I am sorry that any photographer would "lose" any imagers of you!  Tragic things do happen though.  So I'll tell you something that happened to me and then what I think of all this.

I produced a video that was a spoof of like an American Idol show, but under a different name that was meant to promote a website I have that is under development.  I didn't have a lot of money, so I did it low budget with mostly volunteers that wanted to have some fun.   I had one guy who was my assistant in the production.  He brought his dad's camera, and some nice gear for recording audio.  I also had a couple other cameras so that most everything we shot was on at least two and sometimes three cameras.  We shot it all on tape with a separate audio track being recorded too since this was mostly about music and singing. 

The taping went well, and we were all excited about the results.  I gave the tapes to my assistant who was to edit and put together a finished product.  I went over to his house, and checked out some of the footage.  He impressed me when showing the difference between the audio from the cameras vs the audio made with his Protools on his laptop.  I thought this was going to be great! 

Then he calls me a week later to tell me that he lost everything when his computer hard drive crashed!  It was difficult hearing that, but I had no choice, but to believe him.  I would have been happy to have paid the other guy if he hadn't have lost the audio content he had recorded.  But he insisted that he was happy to have volunteered for my project.  So I got the tapes back from him and took 'em to another guy who I had worked with in the past, and paid him to pull it together into something from the on camera audio recordings and visual of course.

I'm not going to get into going over the past, what I could've or should've done ... but I learned from the experience.  About what happened with your shoot, you got paid, correct?  Be happy that you got some money from it.  Clearly if the photographer is lying or telling the truth, it does not matter.  The fact is that you are not going to get anything more from that shoot. 

My feelings are that you should not work with him "TFP" as perhaps that is his attempt to get you some pictures (or maybe not) but why would you want to work with him again anyway?  I am not going to work with the guy who was my assistant.  No need to explain, or get mad, just move on.  I kinda believe your photographer and my assistant because one of the hardest things for someone to do is admit when they lost an entire shoot.  It's a disaster, and there is no need to carry it further.  Move on, and best wishes!

May 15 13 01:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 41,713
Salinas, California, US


udor wrote:
Don't assume ill-will!

Shit happens!

Last year in April... my external hard drive crashed with 650 GB photos, about a week or two before I wanted to get a back up drive...

Lost it ALL!!!

Even real specialists couldn't recover the files...

That is terrible!!!  I understand why it's important to have back ups of back ups now!

May 15 13 01:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,726
London, England, United Kingdom


C2C Images wrote:
The photographer insistence on using FB necause the image files are too big makes him either a liar or an idiot!   I am therefore doubting the loss of images as well.
Paul Ferris  wrote:
Yeah the files too big for CD but not too big for Facebook seems a bit fishy as well.

Not really I send models the shoots in hi-res through Facebook all the time that are too big for CD

It's all down to how you use the English language and in how much I think the other person understands computers.

May 15 13 01:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 4,781
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


No way of knowing whether he's telling the truth. This happens often enough that I'd give him the benefit of the doubt unless you have some reason not to.

I copy files to my desktop PC, then to an external drive attached to my laptop - but I know photographers who have lost their photos to a hard drive crash. I've never had this exact scenario, but I have had two CF cards fail - and two CF cards mysteriously disappeared after a shoot about a year and a half ago, before I got back to St. Louis.

The suggestion that you reshoot at the same rate seems like a reasonable approach.
May 15 13 01:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bernadette Newberry
Posts: 105
Cincinnati, Ohio, US


It hasn't happened to me (knock on wood) but I've heard horror stories about losing images... CF card corruption, computer/hard drive... stuff like that. It does happen.
May 15 13 01:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bernadette Newberry
Posts: 105
Cincinnati, Ohio, US


Me_LanieLove wrote:
Model is promised copies of photos within the next week. Not on a cd, not via email, but via message on Facebook because the files are "too big" for any other method. This is agreed upon and both part ways.

Wha... what?

May 15 13 01:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wolfy4u
Posts: 1,046
Grand Junction, Colorado, US


This is not a question of how you should protect against losing photo files, it's a question about a photographers credibility.

There are many ways to send large files of photos. Facebook is not one of them. Dropbox of sites such as SendSpace can send at least up to 300mb files.

I think the photographer was using the photo files as bribery to get the OP to shoot free. Having said that, normally if you get paid to model, images are a bonus, not a right. If the OP thinks the photographer is capable of professional work she should do the free shoot, be more careful, but mainly set it up that she can bring a flash drive or laptop to the shoot and get copies of the files at the shoot (As a safety backup for the photographer).
May 15 13 02:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,726
London, England, United Kingdom


Wolfy4u wrote:
There are many ways to send large files of photos. Facebook is not one of them. Dropbox of sites such as SendSpace can send at least up to 300mb files.

True,  but the point that TDL and I are making is that you can send large files via Facebook,  which is different to claiming to STORE the files in Facebook for transfer.

Dropbox is one of the many storage mediums I use to send Zip files,  but all links a delivered in a Facebook message. I rarely use CDs or USB sticks.

Considering the model believed it,  tells me the model may not be that IT literate.

May 15 13 10:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eros Fine Art Photo
Posts: 2,452
Torrance, California, US


Model got paid for her time; end of story. 

Move on and don't shoot with the photographer again, if you don't feel you can trust him at this point.
May 15 13 10:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photographe
Posts: 2,350
Bristol, England, United Kingdom


He was asking for a re-shoot before losing the pictures.

Maybe get re-hired or move on.

I usually have posted something to at least one website before a week has gone by, or at least sent a few low res images to people. It's a shame everything was lost and he was unable to recover any data at all, it seems the worst possible result. I find that bit strange, because people are gagging for a glimpse of their pictures, even low res, well before a week has gone by.
May 15 13 10:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Schlake
Posts: 2,038
Socorro, New Mexico, US


Darren Brade wrote:

True,  but the point that TDL and I are making is that you can send large files via Facebook,  which is different to claiming to STORE the files in Facebook for transfer.

Dropbox is one of the many storage mediums I use to send Zip files,  but all links a delivered in a Facebook message. I rarely use CDs or USB sticks.

Considering the model believed it,  tells me the model may not be that IT literate.

Facebook actually works astoundingly well for sending images through the messaging system.  Their software butchers the colors and compression if you upload it to a gallery, but big images pass untouched through facebook messages.  And facebook has tremendous storage and bandwidth and is sadly ubiquitous, so is an easy and acceptable way to move images around one at a time.

May 15 13 10:27 am  Link  Quote 
Model
winking_wonder
Posts: 5,325
New York, New York, US


White Lace Studios wrote:
I guess I am confused. The photographer paid the model. Pics were part of the agreement (hoping the rate was reduced - but their arrangement, fine.).

So model is paid
photog, for whatever reason, lost the images
Model wants a reshoot, to be paid (again) so she can get the images.

Am I reading this wrong?

If the photog was paid, then I would reshoot at my expense.

If I paid the model, I wouldn't have promised images to begin with (she was paid), but let's say I did. I wouldn't pay her again so just I could give her the images.

You misread. The PHOTOGRAPHER wants a re shoot, so that HE can get the images. It was not specified whether the re shoot would be paid or not.

May 15 13 10:29 am  Link  Quote 
Model
sasweets
Posts: 397
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada


I know two photographers that have done that and the models just re-shot the whole thing because they really liked the theme and the quality of how they shoot. As long as they provide everything all over again, I would re-shot. Depends on the model though.
May 15 13 10:29 am  Link  Quote 
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