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Photographer
Kalen Lea
Posts: 119
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


On TFCD shoots, I use to let the model choose up to a certain number of images that I would put through to editing for a finished product, and then along with those, would give them all of the raw images from the shoot. Doing this, I've come across bad edits and no credits with those images. Lesson learned.

Now, I let the model choose up to a certain number of photos (10) to be put through for processing into a finished product, and only send him/her web versions and printable versions on a CD. But only the finished products. I figure 10 photos is enough to help a portfolio and give enough photos to choose from and change out, etc.

Do models expect to only get finished products on a CD or do they expect all of the photos from the shoot since it was TFCD?

Models, does this seem fair to you? Up to 10 finished photos that YOU chose?

Photographers, what is your way of dealing with the photos after a shoot?

EDIT: I have a page on my site that explains what a model can expect before and after a shoot, how many photos she/he will get, and a time frame they will get them in. Just fyi. I always tell a model to read pretty much in the beginning of contact.
May 16 13 09:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,300
San Diego, California, US


More than fair. I send out about 3-5.

Something you'll notice as you move along-
Newer, less experienced models will want "all the photos, all RAW files, blah, blah "
More experienced models will want quality over quantity.
May 16 13 09:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kalen Lea
Posts: 119
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


ChiMo wrote:
More than fair. I send out about 3-5.

10 = bad thing?
I figure if they work hard for free, why not be more generous since their photos ARE their payments. If that makes sense, at all.

Maybe 5 would be better. It's not 1, but it's not a bunch of the same shoot.

May 16 13 09:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
GingerMuse
Posts: 369
STUDIO CITY, California, US


If it's TFCD you generally would provide a copy of all images on CD.
If you don't want to provide all images on CD, then don't call it "TFCD."
Make sure to let the model know what you are going to provide prior to the start of the shoot and there shouldn't be an issue. smile
May 16 13 09:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,620
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


I never, ever give models all of the images from a TFP shoot. Depending on the success of the shoot, and number of looks, I will give them 20 to 25 edited pics on a CD. I give them the work in two sizes, one web sized (and watermarked) for online portfolio use and another set full sized, and watermarked, for printing. I've never had any complaints about this number of images.
May 16 13 09:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hi_Spade Photography
Posts: 897
Darlington, South Carolina, US


I think its more than fair. There is no way in hell I would give any RAW pics to the llama unless I was getting paid very well. 10 edited pics is plenty to give to the llama. If she wants more then we start negotiations about pay.
May 16 13 09:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kalen Lea
Posts: 119
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


GingerMuse wrote:
If it's TFCD you generally would provide a copy of all images on CD.
If you don't want to provide all images on CD, then don't call it "TFCD."
Make sure to let the model know what you are going to provide prior to the start of the shoot and there shouldn't be an issue. smile

What would I call it? I am trading their time for images on a cd since that is what I provide for the finished photos. I do, no worries on that! I have a page on my site that explains how I work and what to expect after the shoot, how many photos they will get, time frame for return of the photos, all that good stuff. smile

May 16 13 09:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
DLatrice
Posts: 217
Columbus, Ohio, US


I think that's fair. Seeing as they get to choose the images, they have no reason to complain. I rather get 10 good/edited/finished pictures than 50 ok/unfinished ones
May 16 13 09:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
GingerMuse
Posts: 369
STUDIO CITY, California, US


Kalen Lea wrote:

10 = bad thing?
I figure if they work hard for free, why not be more generous since their photos ARE their payments. If that makes sense, at all.

No it's not bad.
It partially depends on how long it takes you to edit and how many looks.

When I am the photographer at a shoot I generally provide the model/mua/hair/etc. with 2-4 fully retouched images per look. But if it's beauty it could take me up to 5 hours to edit depending on how well the makeup was done, the models skin, etc.

May 16 13 09:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kammeron
Posts: 77
Fremont, California, US


10 photos of models' choosing is very fair. 

It is important to discuss what you are offering to the model before the shoot so they are aware what to expect.  And how long you expect those edits to take after they have chosen them. 

Some models may not have the time to pick ten photos and may prefer you pick what you think are the best ones.  It all just depends, and that's why it's important to keep in good communication with them.
May 16 13 09:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kalen Lea
Posts: 119
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


ForeverFotos wrote:
I never, ever give models all of the images from a TFP shoot. Depending on the success of the shoot, and number of looks, I will give them 20 to 25 edited pics on a CD. I give them the work in two sizes, one web sized (and watermarked) for online portfolio use and another set full sized, and watermarked, for printing. I've never had any complaints about this number of images.

Oh wow, you're very generous. I haven't had any complaints either. I think they appreciate the number of photos since they were not paid.

May 16 13 09:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Spring
Posts: 192
London, England, United Kingdom


GingerMuse wrote:
If it's TFCD you generally would provide a copy of all images on CD.
If you don't want to provide all images on CD, then don't call it "TFCD."

LOL

May 16 13 09:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Spring
Posts: 192
London, England, United Kingdom


Michael Spring wrote:

LOL

Sorry, got carried away.... but all images, really? Why would you want 1000 images on 15 discs?

May 16 13 09:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
GingerMuse
Posts: 369
STUDIO CITY, California, US


Kalen Lea wrote:

What would I call it? I am trading their time for images on a cd since that is what I provide for the finished photos. I do, no worries on that! I have a page on my site that explains how I work and what to expect after the shoot, how many photos they will get, time frame for return of the photos, all that good stuff. smile

Just call it "trade" or "trade for images."
I don't know about models in other areas of the country/world, but if someone tells me or my model friends TFCD, we assume we are getting ALL images on CD following the shoot.

May 16 13 09:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,609
Los Angeles, California, US


As a professional, I have no use for raw images- I don't have enough time to edit, and wouldn't want to.  I also have no interest in the negotiation process needed to gain the rights to edit someone else's work, even if I had the time.

I don't need shots of me blinking, talking, or any other thing that I can't use to promote myself.  Give me the finished product.

10 is a lot.  Sometimes that many is wonderful- lots of options.  Sometimes, if the images are not drastically different...10 could be too many.

Also, as others have mentioned- don't use wording that is dated, or that you don't fully own up to.

"trade" works for me.  I know it's not trade for ponies, bikes, or a yacht.  If you really want to clear it up, "trade for images" will do.
May 16 13 09:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kalen Lea
Posts: 119
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


Kammeron wrote:
10 photos of models' choosing is very fair. 

It is important to discuss what you are offering to the model before the shoot so they are aware what to expect.  And how long you expect those edits to take after they have chosen them. 

Some models may not have the time to pick ten photos and may prefer you pick what you think are the best ones.  It all just depends, and that's why it's important to keep in good communication with them.

Yep! I have an entire page on my site that says what to expect after the shoot regarding obtaining the photos. Number of photos that they can choose, time frame to get them back, etc. I share the link when they first contact me to make sure they're okay with how I work. That way they can decide whether to continue or not.

May 16 13 09:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


The term trade for Prints is just that you give the model an amount of images that you feel worthy of your work as far as the editing. I find it more of the photographers job to give out Quality over Quanity. To give the model all of your images is just not kewl. She or he posed  so that images would be given of the shoot not of all of your work.
May 16 13 09:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kalen Lea
Posts: 119
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


GingerMuse wrote:
Just call it "trade" or "trade for images."
I don't know about models in other areas of the country/world, but if someone tells me or my model friends TFCD, we assume we are getting ALL images on CD following the shoot.

Hmmm, good to know!

May 16 13 09:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kalen Lea
Posts: 119
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


Shandra Stark wrote:
As a professional, I have no use for raw images- I don't have enough time to edit, and wouldn't want to.  I also have no interest in the negotiation process needed to gain the rights to edit someone else's work, even if I had the time.

I don't need shots of me blinking, talking, or any other thing that I can't use to promote myself.

10 is a lot.  Sometimes that many is wonderful- lots of options.  Sometimes, if the images are not drastically different...10 could be too many.

Also, as others have mentioned- don't use wording that is dated, or that you don't fully own up to.

"trade" works for me.  I know it's not trade for ponies, bikes, or a yacht.  If you really want to clear it up, "trade for images" will do.

I have a page on my site that says they can choose up to 10 photos, so if they pick 5, then I edit those 5. If they want 2, I edit those. So I guess they can choose to have 10 photos. It's just, after 10, the waiting time would get too long, and I could get backed up with editing.

Good to know about clearing it up. I will definitely re-word what the shoots are.

May 16 13 09:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,207
Orlando, Florida, US


Fair is whatever you define ahead of time.

The only NOT fair part of a trade shoot is not delivering on what you agree to before the shoot.

So keep your word, no matter what it is, and it's fair.


I give a proof disc and finish my favorites, plus a few of their favorites, if they choose, and make sure they get anything I finish.
May 16 13 09:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,609
Los Angeles, California, US


Kalen Lea wrote:

I have a page on my site that says they can choose up to 10 photos, so if they pick 5, then I edit those 5. If they want 2, I edit those. So I guess they can choose to have 10 photos. It's just, after 10, the waiting time would get too long, and I could get backed up with editing.

Good to know about clearing it up. I will definitely re-word what the shoots are.

Nice!

May 16 13 09:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kalen Lea
Posts: 119
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:
Fair is whatever you define ahead of time.

The only NOT fair part of a trade shoot is not delivering on what you agree to before the shoot.

So keep your word, no matter what it is, and it's fair.


I give a proof disc and finish my favorites, plus a few of their favorites, if they choose, and make sure they get anything I finish.

Very true. I've only had one shoot where I couldn't keep my word, and I felt really bad for it. I didn't have the time to do the extent of editing the model wanted on her photos. I had school at the same time and a regular job. That's another reason why I changed it to a specific maximum number of photos. It's unfortunate, but making mistakes are great learning tools.

May 16 13 09:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Amber Dawn - Colorado
Posts: 6,057
Castle Rock, Colorado, US


10 Photos is fine, Really depends how long you are shooting and how many outfit changes there are.
May 16 13 09:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,004
New York, New York, US


I usually just give 2-4 of each look provided. I let the model chose if she has time to do that. If not. I just edit twenty and send it sized up for MM. This way she has more to chose from and she won't have to bug me for more.
May 16 13 09:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kalen Lea
Posts: 119
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


Thank you everyone for your responses! They've been helpful, and I feel better about the max number of photos to give out for TF shoots to make everything fair.
May 16 13 09:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image Works Photography
Posts: 2,890
Orlando, Florida, US


I don't use the term TFCD. I find CD's passé due to alternatives of delivery like dropbox. I use TFP and usually deliver 20-30 pictures of my choosing out of about 200. Its been discussed many times before. I could deliver less and its a very generous offering but thats what I usually end up with.
May 16 13 10:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kalen Lea
Posts: 119
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


GreatMomentsPhotography wrote:
I don't use the term TFCD. I find CD's passé due to alternatives of delivery like dropbox. I use TFP and usually deliver 20-30 pictures of my choosing out of about 200. Its been discussed many times before. I could deliver less and its a very generous offering but thats what I usually end up with.

Ah I see. I've had an extremely bad experience that ended me choosing the photos for the model. They know what they need for their port. I use to use Dropbox, but it has lost my files before and I had to re-edit every single one. Of course, CDs can be unreliable as well. To each his own, I suppose. smile

May 16 13 10:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mystic Flow Studios
Posts: 401
Hilo, Hawaii, US


GingerMuse wrote:
If it's TFCD you generally would provide a copy of all images on CD.
If you don't want to provide all images on CD, then don't call it "TFCD."
Make sure to let the model know what you are going to provide prior to the start of the shoot and there shouldn't be an issue. smile

Where did you ever get THAT idea???

A CD could contain ONE image or hundreds. NO WAY I would *ever* do what you suggest.

In my limited (recent) experience, those models demanding ALL images on a CD are doing primarily lingerie, nudes, implied, or erotic shots, and thus appear to be most concerned about what was actually shot. A better approach on their part would be to check the photographer's references, and maybe meet with them before shooting so as to assess things interpersonally.

Also, naive internet models all too often post unedited or "Proof Only" images all over the place! Who wants to be represented by shots they would never release themselves due to whatever spontaneous flaws may have arisen when the shutter snapped?

Fully edited and "branded" or watermarked images are the only ones that are safe to release is what I've learned the hard way.

May 16 13 10:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,825
Santa Ana, California, US


GingerMuse wrote:

Just call it "trade" or "trade for images."
I don't know about models in other areas of the country/world, but if someone tells me or my model friends TFCD, we assume we are getting ALL images on CD following the shoot.

NO - Just No.

May 16 13 10:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


The fact that you let models choose which shots they want edited is more than most photographers are willing to do for a TF shoot, mainly because it complicates things and slows down the process, not because they are mean or arrogant.

When I was doing tf shoots strictly for portfolio building I would pick whatever shots I liked (1-4 per look usually), retouch them, and email web sized files to the model... simple, easy, models got their pics within a few weeks and were always happy.
May 16 13 10:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Charlie-CNP
Posts: 2,604
New York, New York, US


Generally when I test, I provide 2-3 fully retouched images per look that reflects the efforts of the entire team. There is no need to send hundreds of images as quality reflects better in portfolios much more successfully than quantity.

With that said though, in today's technical realm, there is no longer a need necessarily to use tangible media forms such as cd's or dvd's any more. In order to streamline your work flow, and to save you and your models a lot of time, I might suggest to invest into some quality web space to drop your images to whomever you work with. This also dually works for any clients. The only time that I ever drop images on a tangible medium any more is if I am making actual prints, or if I am working for a client that is specifically paying for something of that sort.

but as others have said, pre-shoot negotiations are what you make them. If you agree to give out 10 images, that is your call. Everyone does things differently. Most that have been working and shooting in industry will give out 2-3 per look on a test. good luck
May 16 13 11:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
AnnieS
Posts: 34
Bountiful, Utah, US


I like to have just a few really good images, when you have done a shoot and there are like 500 or so raw images it just so many that I don't use/need.  Sometimes the photographer will email me the whole lot and ask me to go through them depending on what project we are doing and then ask me which of the images I like best.  It just depends on the project, what we are using the images for etc.  All photographers are different so we discuss it before we start shooting.

A few good images is what counts and that is what I prefer, the final project of a good shoot.
May 16 13 11:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BarryH
Posts: 852
Taipei City, Taipei City, Taiwan


I NEVER agree to a shoot with a model who demands all the images. Would a chef want his name attached to the omelette that fell on the kitchen floor?

10 images is excellent TFCD compensation. I usually give the best 5-10, depending on the number of poses/looks in the shoot.
May 16 13 11:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
_Kimberly
Posts: 330
Montreal, Quebec, Canada


On most of my TF shoots I get around 3-6 final images and I think that's perfectly reasonable. I would have no use for a cd full of untouched images...
May 16 13 11:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The Shoeplay Warehouse
Posts: 66
Washington, District of Columbia, US


I used to give all images. Edited.

But now I simply have no time for a hundred images to be edited.

I'll just do twenty and be done with it. But, with natural lighting, most of my images actually don't even need to be edited, so it's even faster.

I think that's more luck than anything else.
May 16 13 11:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


I'm starting to learn that model opinions on this subject wildly vary.  I like to provide say 10-20 images depending on how long the shoot was (and i really think thats overboard) but I've run into situations where the model thought every photo taken should be released in full size. I know it's a give and take with TF, but it's frustrating sometimes.  I really feel like the more images you release from a shoot, you start to devalue the shoot as a whole.  If you shoot for say an hour and come up with say 4 shots you are fully satisfied with, I'd call that a nice success.  A lot of people would look down on that.  One thing I have noticed is the more experienced the photographer is, the less photos someone will demand from a shoot.
May 16 13 11:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Swank Photography
Posts: 18,995
Key West, Florida, US


GingerMuse wrote:
If it's TFCD you generally would provide a copy of all images on CD.

Pfft. Not ANY TF shoot I have ever done. NOBODY and I sweet jesus by god surely do mean NO DAMN BODY ever gets all of my RAWS.

What I usually give: A large online file (sent via email) that is filled with up to 10 images of both high resolution (300 DPI) and low resolution (72 DPI), that are available for print and online posting.

TF shoots are whatever is agreed on between the involved parties.

May 16 13 11:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AaronPawlak
Posts: 2,704
New York, New York, US


GingerMuse wrote:
If it's TFCD you generally would provide a copy of all images on CD.
If you don't want to provide all images on CD, then don't call it "TFCD."
Make sure to let the model know what you are going to provide prior to the start of the shoot and there shouldn't be an issue. smile

nobody said TFAICD

May 16 13 11:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Swank Photography
Posts: 18,995
Key West, Florida, US


move along...something weird (blonde) happened here.
May 16 13 11:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Cole Morrison
Posts: 3,958
Portland, Oregon, US


I personally don't use more than 2 or 3 shots from the same shoot and have no need for unedited photos.
May 16 13 11:36 pm  Link  Quote 
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