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Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 10,223
Santa Ana, California, US


For d&b I use the two opposing curves approach including masks with like a 3% flow and help layer business.

This works really well, except sometimes (becoming often), I like d&b so much, that I run into situations where, when I completely white-out the mask in a particular area to lighten, it still isn't enough to lighten the area as much as I need. Typically when I'm trying to virtually remove a deeper shadow. I mean, when the mask is gone, it's gone - you got what you got.

Obviously this is because of the curve on the lighten layer. But I don't want to increase the curve because it is perfect for the majority of the d&b.

So do people create two sets of d&b layers typically from the onset, one with a more drastic curve to use for these instances? Or is there a better approach?
May 19 13 02:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


I just use the built-in D&B tools on a separate layer. If I mess it up I use the undo function.

The advantage for me of the built-in tools is that you can select whether to work on shadows, midtones or highlights. It's not perfect (I preferred the D&B tools in my previous pixel editor) but it works pretty well 99% of the time. If I want to lighten a shadow area I select "shadow" etc. I very rarely use more than 1% opacity though and often use a helper levels layer to give better visibility while I'm working.

With these tools you can work on an area of black and make it completely white if you really want to big_smile



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com
May 19 13 02:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Mike Needham Retouching
Posts: 369
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


It's a mask, either fill the selection with black or paint over until satisfied. That, or back of the d&b, imo.
May 19 13 02:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
RLRetouch
Posts: 45
London, England, United Kingdom


Why dont you just put a heavier curve on to begin with? I pretty much always use just two curves, one lighten one darken but pushed fairly high so i never hit the limit when painting. Also I clip a hue/sat adjustment to the curve and push or pull the saturation to compensate for the saturation shift when the luminance is changed so much.
May 19 13 02:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 717
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain


John Allan wrote:
So do people create two sets of d&b layers typically from the onset, one with a more drastic curve to use for these instances? Or is there a better approach?

I would suggest to have different sets of D&B or use different D&B techniques, you just don't have to duplicate both, just maybe create for instance a blank layer set to soft light and paint with white at a low opacity wherever you needing... that should do the trick!

I do use different D&B layers depending on what I am targeting sometimes.

May 19 13 02:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 717
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain


Apart from the OP... are we only people from UK replying to this thread?? :-) Sorry just noticed it.. lol
May 19 13 02:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jakov Markovic
Posts: 1,128
Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia


The Invisible Touch wrote:

I would suggest to have different sets of D&B or use different D&B techniques, you just don't have to duplicate both, just maybe create for instance a blank layer set to soft light and paint with white at a low opacity wherever you needing... that should do the trick!

I do use different D&B layers depending on what I am targeting sometimes.

Exactly.

There are times when one!=all.

It's not a sin to use both the direct adjustments with D&B, and Curves, and a few sets of curves, soft light, or brush in low layer of frequency separation.

Don't get stuck into whole destructive/non-destructive thing. Whatever gives you good results IS CONSTRUCTIVE.

May 19 13 03:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Peano
Posts: 4,106
Lynchburg, Virginia, US


John Allan wrote:
So do people create two sets of d&b layers typically from the onset, one with a more drastic curve to use for these instances?

If I need more dodging than the first layer produces, I just create a second one. It doesn't need to have a more drastic curve. I generally just duplicate the first one.

May 19 13 03:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 717
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain


Jakov Markovic wrote:
or brush in low layer of frequency separation.

Not sure what you mean by frequency separation here..?? The OP is asking for advice on a D&B issue :-)

Jakov Markovic wrote:
Don't get stuck into whole destructive/non-destructive thing. Whatever gives you good results IS CONSTRUCTIVE.

Well you should... today in our industry, one of the most important things is non-destructive work. So keeping/retaining texture/detail is really important these days unless you are working on cosmetic beauty images.

May 19 13 03:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 10,223
Santa Ana, California, US


Peano wrote:

If I need more dodging than the first layer produces, I just create a second one. It doesn't need to have a more drastic curve. I generally just duplicate the first one.

Oh, that makes so much sense and easy. All I'd have to do in addition to what you mentioned, is make the mask on the duplicated layer all black again.

May 19 13 03:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Peano
Posts: 4,106
Lynchburg, Virginia, US


John Allan wrote:
Oh, that makes so much sense and easy. All I'd have to do in addition to what you mentioned, is make the mask on the duplicated layer all black again.

Right. Or in some cases, you can duplicate the layer, leave the mask intact, and adjust layer opacity. Just depends on how much dodging you've already done.

May 19 13 03:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bruno Inacio
Posts: 27
Paris, Île-de-France, France


I know this D&B technique (with two layers with different curves) but i usually use d&b with a 50% gray Layer, blend in soft light, and I paint with black or white with less than 20% on opacity and flow! (Gry garness technique)

It works, but maybe this technique is good for some things and the curves technique is better for other ones!

Somebody could explain the difference?


Thanks
May 19 13 04:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Marcus Christopher
Posts: 76
Vienna, Wien, Austria


Bruno Inacio wrote:
I know this D&B technique (with two layers with different curves) but i usually use d&b with a 50% gray Layer, blend in soft light, and I paint with black or white with less than 20% on opacity and flow! (Gry garness technique)

It works, but maybe this technique is good for some things and the curves technique is better for other ones!

Somebody could explain the difference?


Thanks

I use the one-layer-approach as well. I find it much easier to switch between lightening and darkening that way.


It seems, many retouchers like the two-curves-approach better, as the curves can be set to "luminance" blend mode, thereby avoiding color shifts. (Obviously, you can't do that with the gray layer, as it's already set to "soft light" or "overlay").


Granted, this can be regarded as an advantage. It is, however, not the only way for avoiding color shifts: I usually place a duplicate (stamp visible) of the layers below on top of my d&b layer and set it to "color" blend mode. Voila: problem solved.

May 20 13 01:27 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 717
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain


Bruno Inacio wrote:
I know this D&B technique (with two layers with different curves) but i usually use d&b with a 50% gray Layer, blend in soft light, and I paint with black or white with less than 20% on opacity and flow! (Gry garness technique)

It works, but maybe this technique is good for some things and the curves technique is better for other ones!

Somebody could explain the difference?


Thanks

There isn't any difference at all!! You can either use:

1 - A blank layer set to soft light

2 - 50% grey layer set to soft light

3 - Set of two different curves - light (dodge) & dark (burn)

They all do the same thing but with the difference that number 3 gives you a bit more versatility as you treat light and shadow in separate layers.

May 20 13 01:43 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
RLRetouch
Posts: 45
London, England, United Kingdom


The main difference is the flexibility in luminosity of curves, you can really get much more extreme tone shift than with single soft light layers.

This is my prefered method, however I have recently been trying out a new technique on a grey soft light layer to get around the colour shift issue. Instead of painting with white/black, I sample a light and dark area of skin for my fore/background paint, lower the saturation a little, and voila! It works pretty well. It takes a bit playing to get the right brightness and sat level of the brush colour but they can be saved as a custom brush, say for each skin type.

Also, by shifting back to a black/white brush, colour corrections can be made on the same layer by selecting one of the channels (whichever cast you want to fix) and painting on the soft light layer.
May 20 13 02:50 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Peano
Posts: 4,106
Lynchburg, Virginia, US


Bruno Inacio wrote:
It works, but maybe this technique is good for some things and the curves technique is better for other ones!

Yes, being different tools (for the same general purpose) they work differently. With a curves layer, it's often useful to change the blend mode from normal to luminosity. With a soft-light layer, it's often useful to paint with color rather than just black or white.

May 20 13 05:27 am  Link  Quote 
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