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Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


...and the realistic expectations of models.

When I started doing this about 20 years ago, model rates were about £25-£30ph for art-nude across the UK.
Nowadays it seems to be around the same. In some cases less - a lot less. Beginners sometimes pitch themselves a little high, but are soon educated (by the lack of job-offers if nothing else) to revise their pricing downwards.

It would appear that the vast majority of UK models are realistic enough to realise that in a growing market, supply outstrips demand by quite a long way and that in order to be competitive, models need to offer a flexible approach to pricing.
I've never yet had a UK model turn around and object to my attempting to negotiate a fee (for example a whole or half-day rate that would be less than the accumulated hourly-rate offered). They might not say yes, but they never mind my asking.
This is a business and businesses need to be flexible.

Clients approach me all the time and ask 'What I can do for them'. My fees for weddings, portraits and general photography are published and set out to clients, but that never stops them trying to get the best deal - it's an expected part of doing business. It's very rare that a wedding client - for example - will look at my pricing and simply purchase a package at face-value - everyone wants a 'deal'...


Compare that to my experiences here in Germany.

Not only do models here price themselves much higher: typically around 20% higher - a relative newcomer with maybe 6-12 months' experience of shooting for 'hobby-photographers' will be asking around 50,-€ ph for implied nude (if they shoot nudes at all - I'd estimate around 80% of models here only offer portrait & fashion genres) and a lot more for art nude: hourly fees of 60,-€ or more are not uncommon -  they are utterly inflexible when it comes to negotiation. The default response to asking for any movement on pricing is either no response at all or blatant rudeness.
I was just quoted an hourly rate of 65,-€ph for art nude and when I asked if she had a half-day rate was told "Good luck finding a model with your imaginings" - in other words, piss off and stop wasting my time.

Given that most modelling sites have forums attached where photographers discuss matters, do they not realise that 'drama' gets them less work, not more?

I hate trying to work with models here. Really. It sucks and blows all at the same time...

So I would like to say a very big 'Thank You' to all the hard-working, realistic and professional models hard at work in the UK - you make our lives so much more bearable.
Jun 17 13 01:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SoCo n Lime
Posts: 3,283
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom


its an individual choice on how much someone charges regardless of their look. you either accept it, negotiate on it or you do neither and look elsewhere.

the same goes for any freelance individual

besides someone may see the value of a hourly rate for a particular model but then the guy next to him doesn't see the value at all.. so how can you judge on the right approach when its such a subjective topic.

but yes your right there is allot of people that are poles apart when weighing up what they're looking for rate wise and what they have in their portfolio
Jun 17 13 02:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


I get that - it's the unrelenting refusal to even contemplate negotiation and the sense of insult when it happens that baffles me...

There's a sense of 'entitlement' that's common to a lot of Germans that seems lacking elsewhere...maybe that's part of it...
Jun 17 13 04:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,746
London, England, United Kingdom


RKD Photographic wrote:
I get that - it's the unrelenting refusal to even contemplate negotiation and the sense of insult when it happens that baffles me...

There's a sense of 'entitlement' that's common to a lot of Germans that seems lacking elsewhere...maybe that's part of it...

That is not unusual behaviour for Germans from a more UK perspective. I have heard it from several people that they are efficient but don't like to deviate from a given path.

Unfortunately there is little that you can do but embrace it (or travel to the UK more and shoot with our models :-)  )

Jun 17 13 05:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Darren Brade wrote:

That is not unusual behaviour for Germans from a more UK perspective. I have heard it from several people that they are efficient but don't like to deviate from a given path.

Unfortunately there is little that you can do but embrace it (or travel to the UK more and shoot with our models :-)  )

Hmmm... I'm English, but married to a German - it's bad enough now, but I can just imagine the wife's reaction to my telling her I'm travelling back to UK just to photograph naked models...
Dead Man Walking - or more likely Dead Man in a Wheelchair... and then shallow-graved...

Jun 17 13 06:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Catnapping
Posts: 3,771
Brooklyn, New York, US


People can ask for whatever they want. Will they always get it? No.

But, some models are satisfied shooting once in a blue moon for a high amount. Some models shoot very often for a higher-than-normal amount because they're in demand. Some models want to shoot as often as possible and pay doesn't matter. There's a whole spectrum.

In my case, I don't pay models; enough models want to shoot that I don't have to pay models. There are some models who have no need to do unpaid shoots and I respect that. If I did not have that handful of models who are willing to barter or if I was making money from my work, then I would probably have to hire models or only shoot my cats.

I think it's an unrealistic expectation of photographers to be able to shoot whoever they want, or for models to negotiate. Not everyone will be interested in working with you or negotiating, and it's certainly not a requirement.
Jun 17 13 06:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,746
London, England, United Kingdom


RKD Photographic wrote:

Hmmm... I'm English, but married to a German - it's bad enough now, but I can just imagine the wife's reaction to my telling her I'm travelling back to UK just to photograph naked models...
Dead Man Walking - or more likely Dead Man in a Wheelchair... and then shallow-graved...

:-)

Jun 17 13 07:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Catnapping wrote:
I think it's an unrealistic expectation of photographers to be able to shoot whoever they want, or for models to negotiate. Not everyone will be interested in working with you or negotiating, and it's certainly not a requirement.

Accepted - it's the rudeness I find unnecessary... a simple 'No' would suffice...

Jun 17 13 09:27 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shilo Von Porcelaine
Posts: 214
Chicago, Illinois, US


From what I've heard, rates vary depending on where you are due to several factors (transportation systems, exchange rates, economy, amount of models...) So it is entirely possible that it is just that. And, sorry if this sounds blunt, but saying "but in England models are 20% cheaper" probably isn't going to help. Models are people too, we have bills to pay, personal expenses, and responsibilities. And while some negotiation is fine with me personally if I really like someone's portfolio, I otherwise find it insulting when someone tries to bargain hunt.

However, you are right--rudeness is not okay or professional.
Jun 17 13 09:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
From what I've heard, rates vary depending on where you are due to several factors (transportation systems, exchange rates, economy, amount of models...) So it is entirely possible that it is just that. And, sorry if this sounds blunt, but saying "but in England models are 20% cheaper" probably isn't going to help. Models are people too, we have bills to pay, personal expenses, and responsibilities. And while some negotiation is fine with me personally if I really like someone's portfolio, I otherwise find it insulting when someone tries to bargain hunt.

However, you are right--rudeness is not okay or professional.

Well obviously I didn't say to the German model "Hey why are you so expensive - UK model are much cheaper!"

I merely asked if there was any possibility of a discounted rate for a half-day as they mostly display hourly rates only.

I have an hourly rate - I also have half-day and full-day rates and all jobs are subject to negotiation as all clients are on a budget.

I have bills to pay and a family to feed as well - and that means bugger-all to my clients when they try and knock me down from 1500,-€ to 300,-€ for a full-day commercial shoot. We usually end up somewhere in between.

Jun 18 13 12:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 34,227
San Diego, California, US


What about a photo vacation to Budapest or Romania or Bulgaria?
Jun 18 13 12:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Click Hamilton wrote:
What about a photo vacation to Budapest or Romania or Bulgaria?

Once again, I can just see the Mrs agreeing to that...lol

A whole world of difference between 300,-€ for a half-day shoot here in my studio where I can be finished in time to do the grocery-shopping, the laundry, the dishes, bath the kids etc. and spending upwards of 2.000,-€ swanning off to Budapest for a long weekend to photograph nekkid gurlz in my hotel room (how she sees it).

Jun 18 13 01:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hugh Alison
Posts: 2,083
Aberystwyth, Wales, United Kingdom


Shoot with www.modelmayhem.com/beckytun - she's in Berlin,

or www.modelmayhem.com/RaphaellaWithLove -  based in Manchester, with cheap flights to most of Europe.

These two are both amazing.
Jun 18 13 01:51 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shilo Von Porcelaine
Posts: 214
Chicago, Illinois, US


RKD Photographic wrote:
I have bills to pay and a family to feed as well - and that means bugger-all to my clients when they try and knock me down from 1500,-€ to 300,-€ for a full-day commercial shoot. We usually end up somewhere in between.

I understand that. I'm saying that I don't think that bartering anyone's rates--photographer or model, is polite. I don't think your clients are right to either. I feel that if you are asking someone to work and it's not something that they would do TF, you should pay what their rate is unless they specify that they have half/full day rates already. If you can't pay someone's rates, find someone with rates you can pay/will work TF or wait until you have money saved. I don't know how you see it when clients try to bring the price down, but a lot of people will see it as insulting or you trying to tell them that their time/work is not worth paying their rate for. On the other hand, if a photographer were to say to me straight up "This job is X dollars" and it wasn't my rate, I could just say no. It's when the haggling happens I find it to be rude.

Jun 18 13 08:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gallery-MG
Posts: 75
Arlington, Virginia, US


Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
It's when the haggling happens I find it to be rude.

But haggling (i.e. negotiation) happens at every level of the economy, from CEOs tossing around billions of dollars in a corporate merger to the guy on the corner selling hotdogs.  It's not rude; it's business.

Jun 18 13 08:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,986
Chicago, Illinois, US


Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:

I understand that. I'm saying that I don't think that bartering anyone's rates--photographer or model, is polite. I don't think your clients are right to either. I feel that if you are asking someone to work and it's not something that they would do TF, you should pay what their rate is unless they specify that they have half/full day rates already. If you can't pay someone's rates, find someone with rates you can pay/will work TF or wait until you have money saved. I don't know how you see it when clients try to bring the price down, but a lot of people will see it as insulting or you trying to tell them that their time/work is not worth paying their rate for. On the other hand, if a photographer were to say to me straight up "This job is X dollars" and it wasn't my rate, I could just say no. It's when the haggling happens I find it to be rude.

The art of negotiation is important to understand especially for freelance models.   Photographers also have to know how to bargain.   Try never to be insulted by clients trying to get you to accept less.   Just counteroffer.

Jun 18 13 08:59 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shilo Von Porcelaine
Posts: 214
Chicago, Illinois, US


True, but at the same time, if you hired someone to fix your roof, and their hourly rate is $75/hr, do you ask them to lower it to $50?

(Playing devils advocate a bit here.)
Jun 18 13 09:02 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,005
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Tony Lawrence wrote:

The art of negotiation is important to understand especially for freelance models.   Photographers also have to know how to bargain.   Try never to be insulted by clients trying to get you to accept less.   Just counteroffer.

Yes and no. There's being reasonable and not insulting "I can't do 100, how about 75?" And then there's who the fuck are you kidding with that shit-insane "I can't do 100....how about 10 and I throw in lunch from the dollar menu?"

If you can be even remotely close to their asking price, bargaining is usually okay. If you can't even begin to get into that ballpark, then shilo is right, go find someone more suitable for your budget or maybe dont shoot a model every single week and save up. It IS insulting to ask someone's rates when you had absolutely no intention of paying them to begin with and want to try to haggle them all the way down to nothing.

Jun 18 13 09:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,986
Chicago, Illinois, US


Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
True, but at the same time, if you hired someone to fix your roof, and their hourly rate is $75/hr, do you ask them to lower it to $50?

(Playing devils advocate a bit here.)

Yep.   I've done it.   When work is slow many large and small companies are more flexible.   Negotiation could be for airfare or clothes.   It could mean less now but more work later.   The art of the deal is a great thing to learn.   Lets say your shoot would include a tear sheet.   One example is here in Chicago several small clothing stores advertise in the Reader and LBGT papers.   They don't pay much but its a tear sheet.   Would you charge more or less for a national or local ad?

Jun 18 13 09:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,986
Chicago, Illinois, US


Laura UnBound wrote:

Yes and no. There's being reasonable and not insulting "I can't do 100, how about 75?" And then there's who the fuck are you kidding with that shit-insane "I can't do 100....how about 10 and I throw in lunch from the dollar menu?"

If you can be even remotely close to their asking price, bargaining is usually okay. If you can't even begin to get into that ballpark, then shilo is right, go find someone more suitable for your budget or maybe dont shoot a model every single week and save up. It IS insulting to ask someone's rates when you had absolutely no intention of paying them to begin with and want to try to haggle them all the way down to nothing.

In business and life to a extent.   Learn not too be insulted.   Lets say you're working in a city and some work falls through.   That goof who you cussed out for his $25.00 a hour rate might come in handy.   Maybe you counteroffer with suggesting he partner up for a small group deal where two guys pay $50.00 per hour.   Recently a model offered me $25.00 to shoot her.   I counter offered and she said she was broke.   No deal but I wasn't offended and maybe when she has more cash might hire me.

Jun 18 13 09:20 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shilo Von Porcelaine
Posts: 214
Chicago, Illinois, US


Tear sheets/publication/guaranteed exposure are another thing entirely because yes, they are beneficial in the long run. Personally, I always take tear sheets TF because in my opinion that is compensation because it means more work/something I can put in my portfolio or as a credit. But when it's not a tear sheet and does not guarantee me more work, I do not see it as mutually beneficial to lower my rates for someone.

And yes, I agree with Laura, it's okay a little bit if I like the person's work enough, but when I literally get offered half my rate to work, it is insulting. That is not being too easily insulted, because it is basically someone telling you that to them your time/work is not worth as much to them. I don't just think this applies to models either--I would never dream of haggling with a photographer who charges because it is impolite. If they didn't want to shoot TF with me and I didn't have the money, I would leave it until I could afford to. I believe in supporting people for the work they do and the art they make so they can continue to do so--both modeling and photography cost money (wardrobe, equipment, makeup, learning, ect...)

As for airfare/clothes, this will sound harsh, but if the person hiring me cannot provide those, that's not my problem and it shouldn't be deducted from overall compensation because it's still a part of me working. However, if it's clothes I like that I got to keep, then sure if they ran it by me first...even though I'd rather be paid in money because my landlord doesn't accept clothes sad
Jun 18 13 09:20 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,005
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Tony Lawrence wrote:
In business and life to a extent.   Learn not too be insulted.   Lets say you're working in a city and some work falls through.   That goof who you cussed out for his $25.00 a hour rate might come in handy.   Maybe you counteroffer with suggesting he partner up for a small group deal where two guys pay $50.00 per hour.   Recently a model offered me $25.00 to shoot her.   I counter offered and she said she was broke.   No deal but I wasn't offended and maybe when she has more cash might hire me.

Just because they may have insulted me doesn't mean I cussed them out and won't take their money later if its actually enough the second time around. I'm more likely to get cussed out/guilt tripped when I politely decline someone who's way way way lowballing me, because "I should have done it for the art anyway" and I "don't know a good offer when I get one, my career will suffer" and "I'm not even a real model"

When I was full time I gave broke people lots of options for making up the difference and the genuine people worked it out, or they saved up, or they pooled some friends together, or they attended a workshop I was at, or any number of other things. If you give them a way people who actually value you, take it.

Some people genuinely can't afford shit, I get that, I sympathize with that, I can't pay most of the people I want to work with either. But I'm also not trying to lowball them. I respect them and their work.

Others lowball for the sake of lowballing, its a game to see how cheap they can get something, they would have zero intention of meeting anything near your quoted price even when they do have the money. That's insulting any way you look at it. They want you but they don't actually value you at all.

Jun 18 13 09:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,986
Chicago, Illinois, US


Far be it for me to tell any model or photographer what their time is worth but according to the DOL the average signed agency model makes under $20.00 a hour.   That's adjusted for down time and is a national average.   If I worked for example at Starbucks and someone offered me $20.00 per hour for the kind of simple clothed fashion work many members do.   I'd consider it.  If my days were filled with watching People's court.   I'd consider $30.00 to $50.00 per hour for nudes.   A few years ago a model asked if I'd pay her $40.00 per hour for some fashion shots.

She was pretty and heck $120.00 for three hours was okay.   I mentioned wanting to bring a friend as he wanted to try a model shoot.   Her price went up to $50.00 per hour and I declined.   In any event people should charge what they think is fair.   However I also believe in paying my bills and if my days weren't being filled with great paid work I'd consider some money better then none.   That's my view.   I'm not here to argue if its right or wrong.   Models and photographers are free to charge what they want.
Jun 18 13 09:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MCB Imagery
Posts: 95
Portland, Oregon, US


Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
True, but at the same time, if you hired someone to fix your roof, and their hourly rate is $75/hr, do you ask them to lower it to $50?

(Playing devils advocate a bit here.)

Yes, you do (playing along).  But not very successfully by arguing hourly rate . . . but by value delivered.  Don't want to pay that rate?  Then maybe talk about the scope of a project that you do find agreeable (e.g., fix roof plus siding for fixed hours/capped $, which equals ~$50/hr).

Bringing it back to our world... if someone wants to negotiate and they offer less $, the value-based approach would be to say here is what I can do within your budget.  For a lower price you lower the value-delivered.  Does that make you immune to market forces - supply/demand, etc.?  No.  But it does communicate and reinforce your worth and creates choice points for the client to consider. 

If well-managed you can come across as flexible and at the same time can control the client conversation a bit more.

Jun 18 13 01:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


I don't think it's particularly insulting when confronted with an hourly-rate to ask if the model has a day or half-day rate...

Which is all I did.

Say a model has a published rate of 40,-€ ph and I ask if she would work a half-day for 150,-€ (which assumes maybe three hours' shooting-time, plus faffing around) - is that really so insulting? It's more than the two-hour minimum that most models insist on - quite rightly so IMO - but not derogatory enough to be taking the piss.

My attitude if the model still insisted on a hard and fast hourly rate with absolutely no room for negotiation (if I still wanted to work with her which would be unlikely at this point) would be that she works every second of those hours in front of the camera with no breaks. I know some photographers here do work that way.

Instead of which I prefer a more relaxed style of shooting - makes for better images.
Jun 19 13 12:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
True, but at the same time, if you hired someone to fix your roof, and their hourly rate is $75/hr, do you ask them to lower it to $50?

(Playing devils advocate a bit here.)

Very much so - every time I work with tradesmen I will negotiate: it's expected - I also offer a 'cash' rate in case they 'forget' to put it through the books...

Jun 19 13 12:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Hugh Alison wrote:
Shoot with www.modelmayhem.com/beckytun - she's in Berlin,

or www.modelmayhem.com/RaphaellaWithLove -  based in Manchester, with cheap flights to most of Europe.

These two are both amazing.

For commercial work that's fine - for weekend 'fun' shooting, not so much. Hiring a model from Berlin for me is like someone in Hastings hiring a model from Edinburgh - it's a six-hour drive from here to Berlin - Berlin is practically in Poland, geographically-speaking (since the map was re-drawn after WW2).
The myth about fast, efficient German railways is just that: a myth. Rail travel sucks here almost as much as it does in the UK.

Likewise hiring anyone who has to fly here: the discounted hourly rate is totally negated by the airfare and possible overnight accommodation expenses.

Jun 19 13 12:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photographe
Posts: 2,350
Bristol, England, United Kingdom


I can imagine German models possibly being more business-oriented and uncompromising over negotations, but at the same time I can imagine a higher percentage of them will turn up, communicate more effectively and be more serious about wanting to succeed.

Not just in modelling, but in general the work ethic in the UK is pretty terrible. It snows one inch and the entire country stay at home at watch Jeremy Kyle. This is unheard of and unacceptable in the United States for example.

In 1997 I was paying agency fashion models around £50 per hour for nude work, now I am hiring internet models in 2013 for less than that. Having said this though, the price reflects the overall quality of the models as a collective group, you're still better off working an agency model, if you don't want to waste time and energy in finding the right one. That's not fair on the good internet models, just a reflection on how it is pure mayhem.

I find when internet models are uncompromising, 99% of the time it is due to something they have read on the internet that was "advice", but in fact this advice conflicts with advice that an agency would give.

A good example is the model safety thread on Purestorm, started by a police officer, during which I mentioned that the first question an agency asks about TF work is "is there going to be a mua?", this is actually more for portfolio than safety reasons, but is the industry way of ensuring there is no lone-working situation. The responses from models and photographers in this thread are ridiculously aggressive/defensive and get very personal, with people even trolling my FB page.

Their only way of responding to this point, was to ignore it totally and accuse me of being a "fake", because I had chosen not to show any tearsheets, or because I had used a d50. This is hilarious, because the mua on the d50 shot, was Lan Nguyen, who is very famous, but I didn't even bother telling Purestorm this, I just closed my account, let them show themselves to be fools who weren't actually concerned with model safety at all.

It shows you how far some people are willing to go to defend practices which actually suit the photographer, not the model or their safety. Models read most of this on the internet and some of them take this as the gospel truth, that an escort or no-one is better than having a mua. All you can do is roll your eyes, smile and feel privileged to have had good training.

The same thing happens here, when you contact models. I would recommend photographers read the internet advice that is posted to models, then you begin to realize why communication can be so bad between togs and models.
Jun 19 13 09:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 36,036
Columbus, Ohio, US


RKD Photographic wrote:

Hmmm... I'm English, but married to a German - it's bad enough now, but I can just imagine the wife's reaction to my telling her I'm travelling back to UK just to photograph naked models...
Dead Man Walking - or more likely Dead Man in a Wheelchair... and then shallow-graved
...

lol

Jun 19 13 09:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 36,036
Columbus, Ohio, US


RKD Photographic wrote:
I don't think it's particularly insulting when confronted with an hourly-rate to ask if the model has a day or half-day rate...

I never asked if a model has a day or half day rate, hell I don't even ever ask any of their "rates".

Make an offer...this is what I'd like, this is what I'm willing to pay. Take it or leave it. End of story.

Jun 19 13 09:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,416
Belmont, California, US


Cultural Lessons
When I last visited Greece my friend laughed out loud and grabbed the money out of my hand when I was about to give a vendor full price for something. Cultural lesson learned. When you tried to negotiate with a German you got a rude response, what could have been cultural lesson learned instead turned into resistence on your part. Which is another way to respond.

Keep in mind the many people here giving advice, including me, are highly biased by their cultures.

There is nothing wrong with complaining about the way things are done in other parts of the world, all of us think our culture is the superior one. I see you've found folks from several cultures American, Canadian, British (none German so far) agreeing with you or schooling you on what's acceptable in their culture. My advice would be: Bitch about it here for awhile, that usually takes the ego-sting out of a misstep and allows one to explore one's egoncentricity for awhile, but then learn the lesson available--models charge (and presumably get) more in Germany and it seems German's frown so much upon negotiation that they respond with what some cultures would consider a snide attitude--although you might test this second hypothesis a bit more since it is so abhorrent to UK, US or Greek culture (and pocketbooks) and might have been the result of too small a sample for statistical significance. Also, you might eventually deal with a German model who has travelled abroad and knows that in other countries there is nothing wrong in some cultures with negotiation.

Any Germans agree or disagree?
Jun 19 13 09:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 2,275
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


RKD Photographic wrote:
Hmmm... I'm English, but married to a German

It sounds like a cultural problem (I have worked with a small number of german models and definitely found them "different").  Perhaps your wife could give you some insights?

Jun 19 13 04:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kelleth
Posts: 2,505
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


It's just as important to negotiate as it is to know when someone isn't offering you even close to what you feel your services are worth. I negotiate all the time but I also turn down jobs from time to time as well when the payment offered is just plain ridiculous.
Jun 19 13 05:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Sierra McKenzie
Posts: 710
Seattle, Washington, US


Just because you don't want to pay somebody's rate doesn't make their rate necessarily unreasonable.

But if you don't want to pay them their rate, don't waste the time of everyone involved.

Minor negotiation is fine, but more than that CAN be insulting and a waste of time.
Jun 19 13 07:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Rollo David Snook wrote:
I can imagine German models possibly being more business-oriented and uncompromising over negotiations, but at the same time I can imagine a higher percentage of them will turn up, communicate more effectively and be more serious about wanting to succeed.

ahhh...if only. I hesitate to use the 'N' word with regard some people's behaviour, but I've lived in Germany for six years and around here it feels like it sometimes...

I think the flake-rate is about the same here as it is everywhere else - especially with newcomers and TFP - TFP is seen as mere trivia and if the sun is shining (or if it's raining, snowing or there's a BVB Dortmund match on TV), I pretty much know there's an 80% chance of being stood-up.

One model told me after failing to show for a Sunday appointment that she 'spontaneously decided to go to Amsterdam' - on the Friday - no telephones in Holland then, are there?

Jun 20 13 12:03 am  Link  Quote 
Model
amb300
Posts: 218
Murfreesboro, Tennessee, US


Jun 20 13 04:45 am  Link  Quote 
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