Art of the nude wrote:
Taking advantage of a woman (or man), or a situation of power, is simply unacceptable.  But women routinely get away with "non-consensual actions or feeling like they deserve them (touching, phone-stalking, unsolicited remarks about body type/improvements/etc)"  In general, a male who complained would be laughed at.  Considering that acceptable is, pretty much by definition, "gender bias."  As is claiming that all males are exploitative, or that all sexual harassment is males harassing females.  People with power, and that isn't always obvious power, tend to use it; sometimes inappropriately.

I'm not disagreeing with you here.
It is not okay to be ashamed in to silence for fear of being laughed at or judged. What I told that fellow was that nobody made him say nothing, and if the female in question had been told she was acting inappropriately, maybe she would have stopped.
In the cases listed here, the majority of the models asked their aggressor to stop and they did not. That has nothing to do with gender. All I said initially is that this thread was full of male privilege. That doesn't mean you, or the next guy, or any of the men who have posted here, don't get shitty about it. The male priv I was referring to here are the men who take advantage of their models because they either feel like they deserve it or because they are stronger and can do so.


For those of you who seem to have an issue with the term "male privilege", take a moment to read about what it actually is, and that I'm not calling any of you dudes out on it. I am talking about the aggressors mentioned in the replies here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege
http://www.academicroom.com/topics/what … -privilege

Jolly Rauncher wrote:
In the cases listed here, the majority of the models asked their aggressor to stop and they did not.

Are you making assumptions or did you actually count them?

Please share your results.

How many asked the aggressor to stop and how many didn't speak up?

How many when asked stopped and how many didn't?

That Italian Guy wrote:
Seriously, who pulls a knife on somebody for making "comments"

If what he was saying upset you all you had to do was make your excuses and leave. Pulling a knife is just.... well, unbelievable.

THIS. Wholeheartedly.

Star wrote:
Look, I personally could give a rats ass about escorts. So don't even think this is about this, but i am a bit tired of people pretending that mdoeling is just like working in a bank.

So, let's put it to the population at large.

Models, have you ever been in a shoot (or casting) where the photographer began acting in a way that felt "skeevy*."

If you have been, would you be comfortable enough to share some details about that experience?

* Skeevy covers a range of things, like touching, talking in a creepy manner, offering money or other things in exchange for sexual favors, writing you messages, blowing in your ear and calling you his little princess- you know what i mean by skeevy

I have. Right now. This thread.
I consider your request for "touching" stories and so forth to be skeevy in itself.

Revenge Photography wrote:

Are you making assumptions or did you actually count them?

Please share your results.

How many asked the aggressor to stop and how many didn't speak up?

How many when asked stopped and how many didn't?

Quit picking apart my responses to attempt to keep arguing with me, go back and read the posts yourself. There are at least two instances where the person in question was asked to stop, quit it, or fuck off.
Sounds to me like you're mostly pissed off that I used the terminology I chose, not that you actually have a valid argument.

Fotografica Gregor wrote:
These kinds of drama promoting posts are why I have migrated to facebook more and more -

working relationships with less experienced models I have connected with through MM are quite often just infected from the start with the assumption that I am a perv until or unless I prove otherwise due to all of this drama - 

I frankly don't care to walk on eggshells...

whereas when I am contacted through facebook there is a greatly more positive attitude from the very beginning - 

all of this drama mongering is doing a huge disservice - most especially to less experienced models and photographers who have a hard time getting started anyway....

roger alan wrote:
Well said.

I'm not a fan of excess fear mongering but I have to wonder why in a thread asking models their experiences in the "skeevy" realm you end up having a bunch of photographers trying to make light of the subject or post cutsey comments that are trying to convey how hip and fun their photoshoots are.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

In any sexual harassment case a key component is what did the person do.   Did you tell your harasser  to stop?   There is a old saying.   Silence infers permission.   If you are sent to a shoot via agency test or booked work and the photographer or MUA or anybody else gets out of line tell them to knock it off.   If they don't, leave.   If women want to be respected, demand it.   Yes it may cost you work.   It may cost you being with that agency but what is your self respect worth.   I've had jobs where the boss would make racial jokes.   I said to one, don't say that shi^ to me.   I'm not saying its easy.   Old Hollywood was known for the casting coach where actors including men would be asked too sleep with directors and producers for parts.   There were those who refused.

You have choices in life.   If you choose not to empower yourself.   You are to blame.

I have to strongly disagree with what you have to say, in situations with disproportionate levels of power the victim is NEVER to blame. Silence doesn't infer permission...

Echo_ wrote:

I have to strongly disagree with what you have to say, in situations with disproportionate levels of power the victim is NEVER to blame. Silence doesn't infer permission...

People need to understand the power of NO.   This isn't the 1950's or 60's where women and minorities had to suffer with harassment and sexist behaviour.   Right now, Paula Deen  has been fired from the Food Network for past racist comments.   You are your best advocate.   Look, children can be victims but part of being a adult is standing up for yourself.   I have adult daughters and if some goof had put his hands on one even at 16 or made some sexual come one.   Holy hell would have broken out.   There is a difference between a women who is being attacked and one who's being pressured in a indirect way to do things.

Don't want to do nudes?   Don't do them.   If someone is getting too chummy tell them to stop. There was a infamous sexual assault case where the victim never said no and was let alone where she could have left the area and did not.   The defendant was found innocent.   I'm not saying that not saying no gives anyone the right to disrespect or assault you.   I am saying that once it happens unless you are locked away or have a weapon being used against you.   There are choices.    Say stop and or put your shi& and leave.   Call the police after.    My mother had a friend who's husband beat her once.   She got him drunk, tied him up and she sliced the bottom of feet up when he woke up.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:

Fotografica Gregor wrote:
These kinds of drama promoting posts are why I have migrated to facebook more and more -

working relationships with less experienced models I have connected with through MM are quite often just infected from the start with the assumption that I am a perv until or unless I prove otherwise due to all of this drama - 

I frankly don't care to walk on eggshells...

whereas when I am contacted through facebook there is a greatly more positive attitude from the very beginning - 

all of this drama mongering is doing a huge disservice - most especially to less experienced models and photographers who have a hard time getting started anyway....

I'm not a fan of excess fear mongering but I have to wonder why in a thread asking models their experiences in the "skeevy" realm you end up having a bunch of photographers trying to make light of the subject or post cutsey comments that are trying to convey how hip and fun their photoshoots are.

Your comment bears no resemblance whatsoever to the content of anything I posted here.... so I don't get why you felt the need to quote me and then imply that you are describing me or my attitude?  That was out of line...

JoShyra wrote:
I actually quit because of it.

I hate when I hear those words!

AG_Boston wrote:

Check out the gigs section of Craigslist. There's lots of creepy stuff going on there.

I am entertained by the gigs section.  Makes me feel more and more normal everyday when I see what the freaks are posting for gigs!

Jolly Rauncher wrote:

Quit picking apart my responses to attempt to keep arguing with me, go back and read the posts yourself. There are at least two instances where the person in question was asked to stop, quit it, or fuck off.
Sounds to me like you're mostly pissed off that I used the terminology I chose, not that you actually have a valid argument.

So two, hardly the majority you claimed. I take issue not with your terminology but with unsubstantiated exaggeration.

If you don't want your posts picked apart, stick to the facts.

Herman Surkis wrote:
"No" is a powerful word.
Most 3-5 year olds seem to know it.
How come adults don't.

Can we be honest here?

Many 3-5 year olds do NOT use the word no when being molested.  The reason being is that the molester often knows how to control them. 


The same is often true for adult offenders. 

I'm not of the mindset that the field of professional photographers is any more prone to molest someone. 

That said it's also true that MM is NOT a professional photographer site.  It's a social networking zone that anyone can join.

Like a schoolyard is likely to attract pedophiles, MM is probably apt to attract some pervs who can use their camera as an ploy to do whatever bullshit and criminal acts they can get away with. (the same way some "models" might actually be prostitutes and some "models" are actually looking to scope out a photographer's gear or studio to rob for some good meth or blow. )

And of course there is probably a decent enough percentage of MM photographers who are looking for some good times as much as good shots and of course not all overtures are necessarily within appropriate boundaries, which also causes lots of consternation.

Jolly Rauncher wrote:
If it isn't welcome, say something. Nobody is forcing you to keep your mouth shut just because you're a man and the person doing the groping is female.
There is a difference between going in to a gentleman's club or hanging out with some model friends, and nearly being raped or harassed or stalked. Don't sugar-coat and compared  some casual booby action that you didn't mind at all to the same thing as what models are describing here.

I have to totally agree. I work with wonderful models and they tell me horror stories about some of the photographers they work with. But the most disturbing was a message I received from one of my models friends who I hadn't spoken with in a couple of months...

" RAPED AT SHOOT, QUIT MODELING"

That is all she said ... look photographers have to stop thinking their advances are wanted or part of the business.


Real shit happens on this site, and ,many male photographers blame the models.

And for those who think that sexual harassment can't happen because the girl didn't say NO! They are simply wrong

1 the photographer in a paid shoot has the economic advantage

2. Most of the photographers are older and therefore have the age advantage often intimidating the younger woman model.

3.  Models are afraid if they say something about inappropriate behavior they won't get any work or will be black listed.

If that's not male privilege than I don't know what is.


Look at models as if they were your sister, mother or grand mother.  The reason is that they either are or will be one day.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
I have to totally agree. I work with wonderful models and they tell me horror stories about some of the photographers they work with. But the most disturbing was a message I received from one of my models friends who I hadn't spoken with in a couple of months...

" RAPED AT SHOOT, QUIT MODELING"

That is all she said ... look photographers have to stop thinking their advances are wanted or part of the business.


Real shit happens on this site, and ,many male photographers blame the models.

And for those who think that sexual harassment can't happen because the girl didn't say NO! They are simply wrong

1 the photographer in a paid shoot has the economic advantage

2. Most of the photographers are older and therefore have the age advantage often intimidating the younger woman model.

3.  Models are afraid if they say something about inappropriate behavior they won't get any work or will be black listed.

If that's not male privilege than I don't know what is.


Look at models as if they were your sister, mother or grand mother.  The reason is that they either are or will be one day.

I had a model tell me a local shooter had shown her pornographic images in a printed portfolio.   What she had forgotten was I was with that goof when they met and he showed her his book and he didn't show her any pornographic anything nor even nudes.   People often exaggerate.   Its happened here where models have made various claims only when confronted by the accused have walked back some or all of their statements.   Yes, horrible things happen to women at the hands of men.   Yes, women should be cautious.   However part of being a adult is standing up for yourself.   Being blacklisted would be the last thing on my mind if some fool put his hands on me.   If someone makes what you feel is a inappropriate comment say something.

There is a strong strain of paternalism on MM.   Where men also feel the need to save models from awful men.   They accept what models say when its a accusation about fellow shooters without question.   Most modelling jobs are not like a 9-5 which losing may mean not having a place to live and food.   Most of these jobs don't pay all that much.   Photographers at most of the levels here have zero influence anywhere.    At the industry level they do.  However women must say, no.   There is a difference between having someone  physically overpower you and someone making inappropriate comments or touching you.   No is one blaming models and I am not taking sides.   I am saying that adults must say no if asked to do something they don't want to do.   They must react too unwanted advances and touches.   

No one has said it but male models have this problem at times with male photographers.   Standing up for yourself is part of being a grown up.

Star wrote:
Look, I personally could give a rats ass about escorts. So don't even think this is about this, but i am a bit tired of people pretending that mdoeling is just like working in a bank.

So, let's put it to the population at large.

Models, have you ever been in a shoot (or casting) where the photographer began acting in a way that felt "skeevy*."

If you have been, would you be comfortable enough to share some details about that experience?

* Skeevy covers a range of things, like touching, talking in a creepy manner, offering money or other things in exchange for sexual favors, writing you messages, blowing in your ear and calling you his little princess- you know what i mean by skeevy

men would never behave in such a manner.  Especially photographers.  This thread offends me.

DG at studio47 wrote:
In light of your statement in your profile, not sure why you are posting in the forums, and especially a post asking for "bedtime" stories??

"...While I have chosen to remain a member I want to publicly state that I am not affiliated with MM's management on any level. I do not approve of the management of this site and how it drives professionals from participation and would not recommend the forums to any person, professional or amateur. If you find my portfolio on this site from google or another form please do not associate me with the management or behavior of the management....."

I'm glad that is cleared up.  I was confused all these years and was too scared to ask.

Star wrote:
Look, I personally could give a rats ass about llama herders. So don't even think this is about this, but i am a bit tired of people pretending that mdoeling is just like working in a bank.

So, let's put it to the population at large.

Models, have you ever been in a shoot (or casting) where the photographer began acting in a way that felt "skeevy*."

If you have been, would you be comfortable enough to share some details about that experience?

* Skeevy covers a range of things, like touching, talking in a creepy manner, offering money or other things in exchange for sexual favors, writing you messages, blowing in your ear and calling you his little princess- you know what i mean by skeevy

If they felt "Skeevy" why would they want to tell all of us about it?  Why would You want to hear about it?  I'm a bit confused...!

nyk fury wrote:

your request sounds skeevy.

+1

Rick OBanion Photo wrote:
Models say skeevy things all the time at my shoots. 
You are sooo cute!
You want a treat?
Come give me kisses!
Want a belly rub?


Yes they are talking to my dog, but still....

:-)

T A Y L O R  wrote:
99% sure a photographer I worked with earlier this month ended our shoot like 4 hours early because I wouldn't agree to have sex with him for money.

He sounds like a scumbag.

But I have to ask, why did you leave it to him to terminate the shoot? Why didn't you terminate the shot the moment he asked?

Synster Veronica wrote:
I've have multiple photographers message me with messages like "could you take a picture of you in your bra/panties so I could get a better view of your body?" or something to that extent. No man. The numbers on my profile are real/true and no part of my body is plastic or will ever become plastic.

Under some circumstances this can be a perfectly legitimate request.

If you're doing a lingerie or implied shoot then of course any serious photographer will need to see your figure before deciding whether to work with you/hire you or not.

You seem to feel that such requests are 'pervy' and indeed some might be, but actually the real pervs are probably those who will agree to shoot you sight unseen as they don't care what the images will turn out like but just want to see you naked or in underwear!

Have a think about it.


Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Tony Lawrence wrote:

I had a model tell me a local shooter had shown her pornographic images in a printed portfolio.   What she had forgotten was I was with that goof when they met and he showed her his book and he didn't show her any pornographic anything nor even nudes.   People often exaggerate.   Its happened here where models have made various claims only when confronted by the accused have walked back some or all of their statements.   Yes, horrible things happen to women at the hands of men.   Yes, women should be cautious.   However part of being a adult is standing up for yourself.   Being blacklisted would be the last thing on my mind if some fool put his hands on me.   If someone makes what you feel is a inappropriate comment say something.

There is a strong strain of paternalism on MM.   Where men also feel the need to save models from awful men.   They accept what models say when its a accusation about fellow shooters without question.   Most modelling jobs are not like a 9-5 which losing may mean not having a place to live and food.   Most of these jobs don't pay all that much.   Photographers at most of the levels here have zero influence anywhere.    At the industry level they do.  However women must say, no.   There is a difference between having someone  physically overpower you and someone making inappropriate comments or touching you.   No is one blaming models and I am not taking sides.   I am saying that adults must say no if asked to do something they don't want to do.   They must react too unwanted advances and touches.   

No one has said it but male models have this problem at times with male photographers.   Standing up for yourself is part of being a grown up.

It doesn't have to do with gender, it doesn't have to do with age or being an adult. It is a matter of power. as a model you are going into the space of someone else, there is already a power there that is imbalanced. The fact of the matter is that most people don't just go and make stories up of being sexually harassed or abused, it is extremely embarrassing for them. It might happen occasionally but I don't understand why there is a need to question someone when they do come out if they are not outing them on here. Also you are blaming models by putting the majority of the responsibility on them and not on the people that cause the harm. Why can't people on set expect for everyone on set to act professionally and under what was agreed, not pushing them out of their comfort zone. If as a site we were more intolerable of that behavior there would be less discussion about escorts or safety on shoots. Granted this isn't a professional site but it doesn't mean people should expect members to act the worst ; that to me speaks heaps of mm.

Look I'm not saying that people shouldn't stand up for themselves, I'm just saying there is more to that in these situations.  You say people accept accusations of fellow shooters without question well they do the same thing about the reputation of models. If you walk out of a shoot (because the photographer is acting inappropriate ) the photographer is free to label you as a flake, diva , what have you. Word travels fast and models are afraid of their reputations being ruined, even if they are just doing it as a hobby.

Star wrote:
Look, I personally could give a rats ass about escorts. So don't even think this is about this, but i am a bit tired of people pretending that mdoeling is just like working in a bank.

So, let's put it to the population at large.

Models, have you ever been in a shoot (or casting) where the photographer began acting in a way that felt "skeevy*."

If you have been, would you be comfortable enough to share some details about that experience?

* Skeevy covers a range of things, like touching, talking in a creepy manner, offering money or other things in exchange for sexual favors, writing you messages, blowing in your ear and calling you his little princess- you know what i mean by skeevy

I have done a lot of shoots and all but one has been a pleasant, fun experience.  I was doing a lingerie shoot for a photographer that I had worked with before.  In the middle of a shoot he unzips and opens his pants and pulls out his penis and says "this is what it looks like in case you wanted to know".  I guarantee I didn't want to know. This was a surprise and it freaked me out. I told him that he needed to stay dressed and I went into the bathroom and put on my dress and grabbed my bag and walked out the door.  All while I was doing this he was asking me to stay and he said he would stay dressed. He just wanted me to see the impact I had on him. It was a bit unnerving because I was worried it could escalate into something else but I didn't.

I did have 2 different photographers text me penis pictures. Thank goodness they did this in the early stages of discussing a shoot so it went no further.

So yes weird creepy stuff does happen...it just isn't that frequent.

Misty R H wrote:
I did have 2 different photographers text me penis pictures. Thank goodness they did this in the early stages of discussing a shoot so it went no further.

I have to say that "whipping it out" is way over the top, but texting "willy" pictures is almost as bad.

Echo_ wrote:

It doesn't have to do with gender, it doesn't have to do with age or being an adult. It is a matter of power. as a model you are going into the space of someone else, there is already a power there that is imbalanced. The fact of the matter is that most people don't just go and make stories up of being sexually harassed or abused, it is extremely embarrassing for them. It might happen occasionally but I don't understand why there is a need to question someone when they do come out if they are not outing them on here. Also you are blaming models by putting the majority of the responsibility on them and not on the people that cause the harm. Why can't people on set expect for everyone on set to act professionally and under what was agreed, not pushing them out of their comfort zone. If as a site we were more intolerable of that behavior there would be less discussion about escorts or safety on shoots. Granted this isn't a professional site but it doesn't mean people should expect members to act the worst ; that to me speaks heaps of mm.

Look I'm not saying that people shouldn't stand up for themselves, I'm just saying there is more to that in these situations.  You say people accept accusations of fellow shooters without question well they do the same thing about the reputation of models. If you walk out of a shoot (because the photographer is acting inappropriate ) the photographer is free to label you as a flake, diva , what have you. Word travels fast and models are afraid of their reputations being ruined, even if they are just doing it as a hobby.

We must be on different sites because on this one when photographers are accused of wrong doing with models 90% of the replies are to tar and feather him.   Heck that includes those who don't deliver on images in a timely fashion.   I know many of the shooters on MM by name and reputation which could be ruined in days by a lie and its happened.   My point is two fold though.   Lets say this was a site for Boy Scouts.   Do you think threads started by current Scout Leaders asking Scouts about skeevy experiences would be helpful.   My second point is when you accept bad behaviour or comments you are giving a type of consent by not resisting.   I understand that to a degree.   In large part because women in general are encouraged to be passive.   So its clear I am NOT saying unwanted advances are okay and that the photographers are okay doing them.

However if I were a model the last thing on my mind would be I might be labelled anything.   I would react.   Some fool pulls his dic^ out at shoot.   I might laugh and comment on how tiny it was but I sure as hell wouldn't tremble in fear and ignore it.   If a photographer seemed too touchy I'd tell him to stop.   Please stop telling me I'm placing the responsibility on models.   I'm saying that adults have to demand respect when its not given.   Those who disrespect them must be held accountable for their actions.   As for MM.   In large part members here accept what models say without question if its something negative about photographers.   Especially when the model is very pretty.   Members here are very supportive of models.   Nothing wrong with that but asking for horror stories is unhelpful.   Most important though is DEMAND respect as a woman.   Don't accept bad acts because it comes with a pay check.

Echo_ wrote:
It doesn't have to do with gender, it doesn't have to do with age or being an adult. It is a matter of power. as a model you are going into the space of someone else, there is already a power there that is imbalanced. The fact of the matter is that most people don't just go and make stories up of being sexually harassed or abused, it is extremely embarrassing for them. It might happen occasionally but I don't understand why there is a need to question someone when they do come out if they are not outing them on here. Also you are blaming models by putting the majority of the responsibility on them and not on the people that cause the harm. Why can't people on set expect for everyone on set to act professionally and under what was agreed, not pushing them out of their comfort zone. If as a site we were more intolerable of that behavior there would be less discussion about llama herders or safety on shoots. Granted this isn't a professional site but it doesn't mean people should expect members to act the worst ; that to me speaks heaps of mm.

Look I'm not saying that people shouldn't stand up for themselves, I'm just saying there is more to that in these situations.  You say people accept accusations of fellow shooters without question well they do the same thing about the reputation of models. If you walk out of a shoot (because the photographer is acting inappropriate ) the photographer is free to label you as a flake, diva , what have you. Word travels fast and models are afraid of their reputations being ruined, even if they are just doing it as a hobby.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
We must be on different sites because on this one when photographers are accused of wrong doing with models 90% of the replies are to tar and feather him.   Heck that includes those who don't deliver on images in a timely fashion.   I know many of the shooters on MM by name and reputation which could be ruined in days by a lie and its happened.   My point is two fold though.   Lets say this was a site for Boy Scouts.   Do you think threads started by current Scout Leaders asking Scouts about skeevy experiences would be helpful.

I think about the Los Angeles Archdiocese and if Cardinal Mahoney had asked his flock about skeevy priests that might have caused a shitstorm but it might have resulted in less priests molesting kids.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
My second point is when you accept bad behaviour or comments you are giving a type of consent by not resisting.   I understand that to a degree.   In large part because women in general are encouraged to be passive.   So its clear I am NOT saying unwanted advances are okay and that the photographers are okay doing them.

However if I were a model the last thing on my mind would be I might be labelled anything.   I would react.   Some fool pulls his dic^ out at shoot.   I might laugh and comment on how tiny it was but I sure as hell wouldn't tremble in fear and ignore it.   If a photographer seemed too touchy I'd tell him to stop.

Tony, with all due respect how people respond to a perceived threat isn't the same.

As a male you might not tremble in fear.  Unless of course you spent the greater part of your youth being used as a punching bag or taking it up the ass.  Then you might be a serial killer or a someone who trembles when conflict happens. 

Ideally, yes, we all stand up for our rights, your rights, peace on earth and all this other pie in the sky. But as you and I both know people aren't wired the same. 

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Please stop telling me I'm placing the responsibility on models.   I'm saying that adults have to demand respect when its not given.   Those who disrespect them must be held accountable for their actions.   As for MM.   In large part members here accept what models say without question if its something negative about photographers.   Especially when the model is very pretty.   Members here are very supportive of models.   Nothing wrong with that but asking for horror stories is unhelpful.   Most important though is DEMAND respect as a woman.   Don't accept bad acts because it comes with a pay check.

I suspect this thread was started in reaction to some other threads where male photographers have been devaluing "skeevy" experiences by saying it's all in the model's mind or it's not really bad because it's not real physical violence.


I agree with you that the fearmongering along with white knights get old, but quite frankly so does the thinly veiled  misogyny and sexism on this site.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:

Echo_ wrote:
It doesn't have to do with gender, it doesn't have to do with age or being an adult. It is a matter of power. as a model you are going into the space of someone else, there is already a power there that is imbalanced. The fact of the matter is that most people don't just go and make stories up of being sexually harassed or abused, it is extremely embarrassing for them. It might happen occasionally but I don't understand why there is a need to question someone when they do come out if they are not outing them on here. Also you are blaming models by putting the majority of the responsibility on them and not on the people that cause the harm. Why can't people on set expect for everyone on set to act professionally and under what was agreed, not pushing them out of their comfort zone. If as a site we were more intolerable of that behavior there would be less discussion about escorts or safety on shoots. Granted this isn't a professional site but it doesn't mean people should expect members to act the worst ; that to me speaks heaps of mm.

Look I'm not saying that people shouldn't stand up for themselves, I'm just saying there is more to that in these situations.  You say people accept accusations of fellow shooters without question well they do the same thing about the reputation of models. If you walk out of a shoot (because the photographer is acting inappropriate ) the photographer is free to label you as a flake, diva , what have you. Word travels fast and models are afraid of their reputations being ruined, even if they are just doing it as a hobby.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
We must be on different sites because on this one when photographers are accused of wrong doing with models 90% of the replies are to tar and feather him.   Heck that includes those who don't deliver on images in a timely fashion.   I know many of the shooters on MM by name and reputation which could be ruined in days by a lie and its happened.   My point is two fold though.   Lets say this was a site for Boy Scouts.   Do you think threads started by current Scout Leaders asking Scouts about skeevy experiences would be helpful.

I think about the Los Angeles Archdiocese and if Cardinal Mahoney had asked his flock about skeevy priests that might have caused a shitstorm but it might have resulted in less priests molesting kids.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
My second point is when you accept bad behaviour or comments you are giving a type of consent by not resisting.   I understand that to a degree.   In large part because women in general are encouraged to be passive.   So its clear I am NOT saying unwanted advances are okay and that the photographers are okay doing them.

However if I were a model the last thing on my mind would be I might be labelled anything.   I would react.   Some fool pulls his dic^ out at shoot.   I might laugh and comment on how tiny it was but I sure as hell wouldn't tremble in fear and ignore it.   If a photographer seemed too touchy I'd tell him to stop.

Tony, with all due respect how people respond to a perceived threat isn't the same.

As a male you might not tremble in fear.  Unless of course you spent the greater part of your youth being used as a punching bag or taking it up the ass.  Then you might be a serial killer or a someone who trembles when conflict happens. 

Ideally, yes, we all stand up for our rights, your rights, peace on earth and all this other pie in the sky. But as you and I both know people aren't wired the same. 

I suspect this thread was started in reaction to some other threads where male photographers have been devaluing "skeevy" experiences by saying it's all in the model's mind or it's not really bad because it's not real physical violence.


I agree with you that the fearmongering along with white knights get old, but quite frankly so does the thinly veiled  misogyny and sexism on this site.

I have daughters and I get where women are coming from.   I understand how many see escorts and their fears.   We as men may not ever understand how a women feels when she's nude around a man who's much stronger or larger and in a place where she could be over powered.   I also understand that we can be pigs about things.   I've overheard men say horrible things to women.    There is a deep strain of misogyny on this site.   Some men here have little respect for women and see all like strippers.   When a model tells us she's had a bad experience we should pay attention.   However we must also place what she says in context and not blindly accept everything.   I mentioned the infamous, 'Raped of mind and body' thread as a example of why.

In that thread a model accused a male member of assault.   He eventually posted and it became apparent that their tryst was consensual.   However as men its impossible for many of us to fully understand women's issues, fears and concerns.   I can only imagine the shame  a model might feel if abused at a nude shoot.   She may wonder did she encourage the acts or words.   How will others see it if she tells.   Will they feel she deserved it.   In some cases she may feel she did.   I just don't think its a good ideal to share yet more horror stories on this site.   Its also not mine to decide what's appropriate and frankly nobody gives a shi& about I think.

Antier wrote:
I once had a photographer, without asking, grab my boob to 'rearrange' it when I was in the middle of a nude shoot.
I was so stunned I didn't say anything, but when he went to adjust my thigh I was like "Um. Excuse me" because I'm a pathetic weakass.

And then I found out later he was probably recording the whole thing. AWESOME.

Anyway nowadays I take photos of the license plate and establish 'don't touch me' from the getgo, which sucks for all the awesome photographers out there who would never dream of doing such a thing. I FEEL FOR YOU GUYS I'M SORRY.

Unfortunately, even with my little experience, I've heard enough that I can't get hurt when a model starts the conversation with this...

Patchouli Nyx wrote:

Fotografica Gregor wrote:
These kinds of drama promoting posts are why I have migrated to facebook more and more -

working relationships with less experienced models I have connected with through MM are quite often just infected from the start with the assumption that I am a perv until or unless I prove otherwise due to all of this drama - 

I frankly don't care to walk on eggshells...

whereas when I am contacted through facebook there is a greatly more positive attitude from the very beginning - 

all of this drama mongering is doing a huge disservice - most especially to less experienced models and photographers who have a hard time getting started anyway....

I'm not a fan of excess fear mongering but I have to wonder why in a thread asking models their experiences in the "skeevy" realm you end up having a bunch of photographers trying to make light of the subject or post cutsey comments that are trying to convey how hip and fun their photoshoots are.

Mine are fun... They sound CREEPY AS F*** when proposed... Then again if a model bothers reading the tags on my profile after I message them they get past that...

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
I think about the Los Angeles Archdiocese and if Cardinal Mahoney had asked his flock about skeevy priests that might have caused a shitstorm but it might have resulted in less priests molesting kids.

that pretty much sums it all up right there.

Revenge Photography wrote:

He sounds like a scumbag.

But I have to ask, why did you leave it to him to terminate the shoot? Why didn't you terminate the shot the moment he asked?

+1

Revenge Photography wrote:

He sounds like a scumbag.

But I have to ask, why did you leave it to him to terminate the shoot? Why didn't you terminate the shot the moment he asked?

Because it's not the first time it's happened and I'm used to telling people no. Everyone has their limits. I'd rather discuss what mine are than have assumptions made. I think he was confused by the phrase "sex positive" because he mentioned that without seeming to know what it meant. FWIW: sex positive does not mean I like a lot of sex, especially with people who are not my boyfriend.