login info join!
Forums > Photography Talk > Models who expect more images from the session. Search   Reply
123last
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,944
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


So you shot TF* with aspiring llamas and after the shoot you give them from 3 up to 10 images (Let's be honest, 10 photos is a lot).

But the llama show her surprise saying "How about the other images?" despite the fact that you have said you would deliver only the best images of from the shoot.

And it seems that most of those who complain will be unhappy with you because of it.

What do you do, or what would you do, in this case?

I was thinking about get 3 of the worst images, the ones I know the llama will be very unhappy with, and send to them after they ask for more photos. And say to them "I have plenty of these ones if you want more". Just to see if they can understand like this.

What is your experience with theses llamas?



Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring llama?
Jul 11 13 02:27 am  Link  Quote 
Model
ZombieBunny
Posts: 26
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


*tap dances in*

I'd re-explain to her the original agreement. You never know, she may like the worst images you took and use them everywhere.

*tap dances out*
Jul 11 13 02:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 7,529
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Marciofs wrote:
So you shot TF* with aspiring models and after the shoot you give them from 3 up to 10 images (Let's be honest, 10 photos is a lot).

But the model show her surprise saying "How about the other images?" despite the fact that you have said you would deliver only the best images of from the shoot.

And it seems that most of those who complain will be unhappy with you because of it.

What do you do, or what would you do, in this case?

I was thinking about get 3 of the worst images, the ones I know the model will be very unhappy with, and send to them after they ask for more photos. And say to them "I have plenty of these ones if you want more". Just to see if they can understand like this.

What is your experience with theses models?



Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring model?

I copy & paste the part from our messages stating what I give in the way of photos before we agreed to shoot.

Jul 11 13 02:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Did you agree to more than 10 beforehand?

If not, then 10 is plenty.

Tell her she can pay for retouching if she wants any more - that should end the discussion wink




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com
Jul 11 13 02:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,619
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Marciofs wrote:
But the model show her surprise saying "How about the other images?" despite the fact that you have said you would deliver only the best images of from the shoot.

This is your fatal flaw. Next time, don't say what you are going to do, rather put everything in writing and there will be no confusion.

Jul 11 13 02:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,944
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


I actually have suggested aspiring models to sign a agreement but it seems to scare them as if I wore planting a kind of scam. Specially models I don't find MM but from add I put in notice walls and papers.

Even after the shoot it seems to be a problem for some so I have presented the papers when I meet them to give the prints and CD.

Last girls I shot seems to avoid me when I writing to her telling that I am waiting her to confirm when she wants to get her prints and CD. Since I told her about the release.
Jul 11 13 02:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 7,529
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Marciofs wrote:
I actually have suggested aspiring models to sign a agreement but it seems to scare them as if I wore planting a kind of scam. Specially models I don't find MM but from add I put in notice walls and papers.

Even after the shoot it seems to be a problem for some so I have presented the papers when I meet them to give the prints and CD.

Last girls I shot seems to avoid me when I writing to her telling that I am waiting her to confirm when she wants to get her prints and CD. Since I told her about the release.

Maybe best to have your release signed before the shooting.   If they don't sign ... no shooting.

Jul 11 13 03:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,944
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


Images by MR wrote:
Maybe best to have your release signed before the shooting.   If they don't sign ... no shooting.

This is what I am going to do from now, after this last experience. It is the way it has to be anyway.

Jul 11 13 03:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Snaps By Travis
Posts: 10
Capitol Heights, Maryland, US


Get use to it. You are going to see more and more of this. Paying customer ask to to the whole shoot, do you say no? Models, Make Up Artist, Hair Stylist and Stylist all see things differently. I use to think it would hurt business. But now I see it for what it is a good picture that us seen by more people leading to more business.

Keep Snapping,
Travis
Jul 11 13 03:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ruben Sanchez
Posts: 3,416
San Antonio, Texas, US


Marciofs wrote:
But the model show her surprise saying "How about the other images?" despite the fact that you have said you would deliver only the best images of from the shoot.

The new models will go for the "10 only", as they don't know what to ask for yet, but the experienced models and the ones who do a lot of modeling, will not.  You might just want to keep working with the newbie models, who don't know anything yet.

Also, it makes it a lots easier, if you have a written agreement with the model, before the shoot.  It's the professional way to work with models, and avoid what you're going through.

Jul 11 13 04:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fun City Photo
Posts: 1,552
Stuttgart, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


Remember when we handed a contact sheet out with the entire film?
Do the same now. Give them low resolution pictures with a hug watermark.
I am a bad photographer but make a living shooting girls. They like being in front of a camera and I shoot up to 100 pictures. I let them do with them what they want. They use them on Facebook with the watermark and tell their friends look me up and this generates automatically more money.
The Money is what counts and f... the copyright and usage.  Those flicks have no value for me and never will.
Think about it!
Jul 11 13 04:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,944
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


Fun City Photo wrote:
Remember when we handed a contact sheet out with the entire film?
Do the same now. Give them low resolution pictures with a hug watermark.
I am a bad photographer but make a living shooting girls. They like being in front of a camera and I shoot up to 100 pictures. I let them do with them what they want. They use them on Facebook with the watermark and tell their friends look me up and this generates automatically more money.
The Money is what counts and f... the copyright and usage.  Those flicks have no value for me and never will.
Think about it!

It is a sarcasm isn't it?

Jul 11 13 04:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Barnes Photography
Posts: 206
Palmerston North, Manawatu-Wanganui, New Zealand


It's managing expectations, I think. I always tell a model when we're arranging the shoot how many shots he or she can expect and I always err on the conservative side, too, just in case there aren't that many good shots for whatever reason.
Jul 11 13 04:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Matt Schmidt
Posts: 3,680
Greensboro, North Carolina, US


A:  Our agreement was for X amount of finished images . . .
B:  Oh but I want . . .

A:  Edits beyond this are $ this much . . .
Jul 11 13 04:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fun City Photo
Posts: 1,552
Stuttgart, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


It is a sarcasm isn't it?

No it is not. I have about 100 background and a script inserts 30 different pictures into 30 different backgrounds. another script puts the info which I call watermark always 98% from top on the left side on the background, it also puts the remaining plain pictures into one folder.
Here is a sample:
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9238/srdz.jpg

Jul 11 13 05:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mikey McMichaels
Posts: 2,006
New York, New York, US


Marciofs wrote:
So you shot TF* with aspiring models and after the shoot you give them from 3 up to 10 images (Let's be honest, 10 photos is a lot).

But the model show her surprise saying "How about the other images?" despite the fact that you have said you would deliver only the best images of from the shoot.

And it seems that most of those who complain will be unhappy with you because of it.

What do you do, or what would you do, in this case?

I was thinking about get 3 of the worst images, the ones I know the model will be very unhappy with, and send to them after they ask for more photos. And say to them "I have plenty of these ones if you want more". Just to see if they can understand like this.

What is your experience with theses models?



Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring model?

Who says you know what the best images are?

Ten is not a lot.

This is why it's worth taking a few extra minutes to get things right in camera.

Jul 11 13 05:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bob Helm Photography
Posts: 18,159
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US


I think it only fair for the model to get to select the photos she wants just like any other client. On line services like Zenfolio, Smugmug etc. are great for this. If they want more than agreed upon you can charge or compromise as you see fit.
Jul 11 13 06:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GM Photography
Posts: 6,056
Olympia, Washington, US


The number of images the model receives is discussed and agreed to BEFORE the shoot, not after, and documented in an agreement that the model signs before the shoot starts.  Pricing is also included for additional images.
Jul 11 13 06:24 am  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
Grin Without a Cat
Posts: 427
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


With me, the model release is always signed prior to shooting.
The model gets port-res copies of all the images I feel are worth my time to edit...could be 10 or could be 50...just depends on the shoot.  I never talk about a specific number.
I personally don't care what they do with them after I hand them over.  If they can find a way to make money off the pics in a way that I can't, I say more power to them.

Now if they wanted full-res copies, that would be a different matter...
Jul 11 13 07:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,944
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


Mikey McMichaels wrote:
Who says you know what the best images are?

Ten is not a lot.

This is why it's worth taking a few extra minutes to get things right in camera.

I am the creator so I know what is the best on what I want to archive. The model is just a collaborator who agree to be part of the project in exchange for the result I wanted to archive only.

Ten is a lot when you shoot usually 15 or 30 images per session with 6x7 (120) negative.

Jul 11 13 07:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,944
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


Grin Without a Cat wrote:
With me, the model release is always signed prior to shooting.
The model gets port-res copies of all the images I feel are worth my time to edit...could be 10 or could be 50...just depends on the shoot.  I never talk about a specific number.
I personally don't care what they do with them after I hand them over.  If they can find a way to make money off the pics in a way that I can't, I say more power to them.

Now if they wanted full-res copies, that would be a different matter...

I agree with you and I give the full resolution to print at 11x14 to model after the sign the release with no charge at all. And I don't care if they print and make money with it as far as it is not used to sell or be associated with companies product, religion or political campaign.

As far as I can create what I want and offer traditional prints for sale I am happy.

But I will try to make it right and ask the model to read and sign the release before the shoot even if they ask to see the images before sign. Just to don't have the same experience as I had with the last model.

Jul 11 13 07:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Azimuth Arts
Posts: 1,476
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Mikey McMichaels wrote:

Who says you know what the best images are?

Ten is not a lot.

This is why it's worth taking a few extra minutes to get things right in camera.

The model should not have agreed to test/trade with a photographer if he/she does believe the photographer can deliver a product worthy of going in her portfolio, and that includes her liking the photographers ability to select and edit images based on what is in HIS portfolio before they agree to shoot.

Ten is easily 5 more shots than a model needs to add to her portfolio from any one shoot.  Having an extra 5 means she has plenty to choose from or can rotate the images in an out of her port.

And you can't always get it right in camera - there are often things to fix in post like skin blemishes, a few loose hairs, a little smudge on the background etc.  And even when everything else is perfect in terms of exposure, composition etc. there are simply just some shots that don't look as good as the others.  I want the BEST shot of each hair/makeup/wardrobe look - not the BEST shot and the runner ups.  Why post anything less than perfection if you have the option?

Just my $0.02

Jul 11 13 07:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 2,926
Royal Oak, Michigan, US


Great customer service is about setting expectations and meeting them on schedule.  You should be 100% clear before the shoot starts about how many images the model will get and how they will be selected. Confirm all terms of the shoot-including the number of photos- verbally before the shoot starts and you will have very few issues.

I let my clients and test models pick their own final images from an online SmugMug gallery to let them view all the photos on their own time without any additional effort from me.
Jul 11 13 07:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image Magik
Posts: 1,067
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


Jennifer Whitten wrote:
*tap dances in*

I'd re-explain to her the original agreement. You never know, she may like the worst images you took and use them everywhere.

*tap dances out*

Haha lol

Jul 11 13 07:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Green Grape
Posts: 274
West Paterson, New Jersey, US


Marciofs wrote:
I was thinking about get 3 of the worst images, the ones I know the model will be very unhappy with, and send to them after they ask for more photos. And say to them "I have plenty of these ones if you want more". Just to see if they can understand like this.

LOL! Bad Idea... Good thought of revenge though.. you don't want word of mouth to say "He is a Horrible photographer"

Just be straight up. I only kept the best images on file which were the ones i sent you

Jul 11 13 07:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,304
Salem, Oregon, US


i give them a full session gallery and let them choose their favorites for retouching. TF is a collaboration. both parties should get what they need.
Jul 11 13 08:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Azimuth Arts
Posts: 1,476
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Green Grape Photography wrote:

LOL! Bad Idea... Good thought of revenge though.. you don't want word of mouth to say "He is a Horrible photographer"

Just be straight up. I only kept the best images on file which were the ones i sent you

Um, your idea of "straight up" is a bit odd.  You are suggesting a lie since the OP has stated he still has the three worst images - he kept more than the best.

Better to be really straight up - remind her what was agreed, and that the images she has now are the best of the bunch.

Jul 11 13 08:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,539
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Be clear, be repetive, and put it all down in writing more than once.  It's one of the drawbacks of working with new and aspiring models; if you choose to do it you just have to get used to it.
Jul 11 13 08:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Valenten Photography
Posts: 265
Balikpapan, Kalimantan Timur, Indonesia


Sometimes I edit a few more ones, like 2 or 3, done quickly, because I don't want to have someone get disappointed because of this (I think it's your concern, OP, when you ask "most of those who complain will be unhappy with you because of it").

Interesting topic, i'll follow it

Valenten
http://www.valentenphotography.com
Jul 11 13 08:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,769
Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain


Marciofs wrote:
So you shot TF* with aspiring models and after the shoot you give them from 3 up to 10 images (Let's be honest, 10 photos is a lot).

But the model show her surprise saying "How about the other images?" despite the fact that you have said you would deliver only the best images of from the shoot.

And it seems that most of those who complain will be unhappy with you because of it.

What do you do, or what would you do, in this case?

I was thinking about get 3 of the worst images, the ones I know the model will be very unhappy with, and send to them after they ask for more photos. And say to them "I have plenty of these ones if you want more". Just to see if they can understand like this.

What is your experience with theses models?



Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring model?

Or you can suck it up and let them preview some of the others and choose a limited number. Sheesh, what is the big deal. Maybe they hated the ones you gave them.

Jul 11 13 08:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Camabs
Posts: 323
Utrecht, Utrecht, Netherlands


Ruben Sanchez wrote:
The new models will go for the "10 only", as they don't know what to ask for yet, but the experienced models and the ones who do a lot of modeling, will not.  You might just want to keep working with the newbie models, who don't know anything yet.
.

The exact opposite in my experience. Newbies want all the pics from the shoot. Experienced models know what is correctly stated by Azimuth:

Azimuth Arts wrote:
The model should not have agreed to test/trade with a photographer if he/she does believe the photographer can deliver a product worthy of going in her portfolio, and that includes her liking the photographers ability to select and edit images based on what is in HIS portfolio before they agree to shoot.

Ten is easily 5 more shots than a model needs to add to her portfolio from any one shoot.  Having an extra 5 means she has plenty to choose from or can rotate the images in an out of her port.

And you can't always get it right in camera - there are often things to fix in post like skin blemishes, a few loose hairs, a little smudge on the background etc.  And even when everything else is perfect in terms of exposure, composition etc. there are simply just some shots that don't look as good as the others.  I want the BEST shot of each hair/makeup/wardrobe look - not the BEST shot and the runner ups.  Why post anything less than perfection if you have the option?

Just my $0.02

Jul 11 13 08:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image Works Photography
Posts: 2,890
Orlando, Florida, US


Marciofs wrote:
But the model show her surprise saying "How about the other images?" despite the fact that you have said you would deliver only the best images of from the shoot.

I had 2 so far this year that try to turn the tables after I told them the best of the bunch. They want it all.

Jul 11 13 08:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Nelson Photograph
Posts: 346
Eau Claire, Wisconsin, US


I always shoot tethered whether in studio or on location and after the session I sit down with the model and together we select the best images.  I typically give the model the opportunity to select 25 finished images and a release for use of the images.
Jul 11 13 08:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,044
Portland, Oregon, US


Marciofs wrote:
But the model show her surprise saying "How about the other images?" despite the fact that you have said you would deliver only the best images of from the shoot.

And it seems that most of those who complain will be unhappy with you because of it.

Sorry -- I side with the models, but not for the reason you might think:

In the vast majority of shoots, it is the photographer who is pulling all the logistics together, and the photographer who is "in charge".  It is therefore the photographer's responsibility to ensure that all participants know, understand, and accept the terms of the agreement.

The "I want to see all the images" issues is fairly common, judging by this & similar threads on the forum.  It therefore is a good idea for photographers to set expectations with the model before they agree to work together.

So, 3-10 images is not unreasonable, but make sure you models understands what she's going to get up front.

A while you are at it, also discuss...
...  RAW versus JPG
...  Edited versus unedited
...  Watermarked or not
...  What usage rights the model has
...  Whether the model can edit the images you give her
...  etc.

Jul 11 13 08:52 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Paige Thomley
Posts: 572
West Bend, Wisconsin, US


Yeah, maybe she wants more images because the ones you gave her aren't usable to her. This has only happened to me once and I politely explained what my hang up was with the particular photo and it was something the photographer hadn't even noticed. She wonderfully offered to let me view the others. I might add that half of the photographers let me view all of the photos and pick my favorites which we models LOVE and half of them you just cross your fingers and hope they deliver something that you both like.

Or it could be that your model is a photo hog and wants as many pictures as possible instead of one or two of the best! Either way, get things in writing before the shoot even begins.
Jul 11 13 09:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jakov Markovic
Posts: 1,102
Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia


They always want more, but I have no need for more, and I say that up front.

And if they want more, they should pay for retouching.

Some of them do pay for retouching of extra images, but most of them give up and do a smart thing - do another set, so that both them and me have a new thing for our portfolios.
Jul 11 13 09:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JGLabs
Posts: 135
Mission Viejo, California, US


I'm way too generous probably, but I tell them they can have up to 20. When the shoot is done, I hand them the camera and ask them to write down 20 image numbers. They can thumb through all the images on the LCD and choose.

Because I then have to develop my keepers, and the ones they wanted, I usually spend about a week in post-production for 2 hours of shooting.

But hey, they're giving me their time for free, so I don't mind. It's what I love doing.

Now for a paid shoot, I don't promise them any, but I do usually let them preview the work and pick a few.

Cheers
Josh
Jul 11 13 09:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JGLabs
Posts: 135
Mission Viejo, California, US


Also, the images I like are never the ones the model likes.

And this is quite common.

i LOVE the ones that are well lit, well composed, are amazing photographs.
The model LOVES the ones that are bad photos, but she looks good in them.

So twice the work for me unfortunately sad

But again, it's a labor of love.

My point is, for TFCD, it's not about how many you provide, it's about providing the ones the model wants/needs. She's giving you her time for free because she needs work for her port, so don't pick the images for her, let her pick the ones she wants. You can set whatever limit you want, 3, 5, images, fine, but she has to be the one to pic them.

There are reasonable limits of course, you don't want bad representations of your work getting out there, so you can always tell her no, if one of the ones she picks isn't an example of your best work.

Josh
Jul 11 13 09:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fun City Photo
Posts: 1,552
Stuttgart, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


It also comes down to who wants whom.
If the photographer needs the model then the models work only for free if they get what they want.
Supply and demand it´s that simple.
Jul 11 13 10:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
terrysphotocountry
Posts: 4,064
Rochester, New York, US


Images by MR wrote:

Maybe best to have your release signed before the shooting.   If they don't sign ... no shooting.

This is the best way. Just make sure they read the agreement before the sign it.

Jul 11 13 10:05 am  Link  Quote 
123last   Search   Reply



main | browse | casting/travel | forums | shout box | help | advertising | contests | share | join the mayhem

more modelmayhem on: | | | edu

©2006-2014 ModelMayhem.com. All Rights Reserved.
MODEL MAYHEM is a registered trademark.
Toggle Worksafe Mode: Off | On
Terms | Privacy | Careers