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Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2,001
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Marciofs wrote:
So you shot TF* with aspiring models and after the shoot you give them from 3 up to 10 images (Let's be honest, 10 photos is a lot).

But the model show her surprise saying "How about the other images?" despite the fact that you have said you would deliver only the best images of from the shoot.

Be more specific about what you plan to deliver.

Vague: "I will only deliver the best images from our shoot."

Better: "You can expect to receive 2-3 images per look."

Even better: "You can expect to receive 2-3 images per look in approximately 2 weeks."

Jul 11 13 10:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eralar
Posts: 1,778
Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada


You are vague... if you agreed to only photoshop and give the llama the best shots, without even determining who does the call, then the llama is in her right to say she believes half of the pictures are the best shots.

You should discuss and put by writing before the shoot happens (e-mail, MM message...):

-number of pictures (or range, like 4-6 pictures)
-who chooses them (model via a proofs gallery, or photographer?)
-how long you have to deliver them

Very simple, really... be precise and validate the llama's answers, (ex: "So, we agree on 4-6 pictures, chosen by you... is that right?") especially if the details have been discussed over many communications.
Jul 11 13 02:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Viator Defessus Photos
Posts: 999
College Station, Texas, US


The problem is that the model rarely agrees with me what the 10 best images are. Who's right and who's wrong seems to be rather subjective and varies depending on who you ask. So, I either need to retouch a variety, or I need to give the model a say in which ones are retouched.

Of course, the hazards of giving the model even low res proofs was re-enforced for me the other week when a model took the retouched images I gave her, as well as several of the unretouched proofs (with a deliberately hideous watermark on them) and posted both online.
Jul 11 13 05:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,756
Santa Ana, California, US


Whether it's TF, test, model's paid.
Models and team need to appreciate that the resulting images have value. They are basically currency. They're not just some pretty side-effect of the shoot.
Jul 11 13 05:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 7,567
Imperial, California, US


If I keep it, they get a copy on a DVD!
Jul 11 13 05:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 2,275
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


Marciofs wrote:
So you shot TF* with aspiring models and after the shoot you give them from 3 up to 10 images (Let's be honest, 10 photos is a lot).

No, ten is not lot unless you are doing some really heavy-duty photoshopping to each image.


Marciofs wrote:
But the model show her surprise saying "How about the other images?" despite the fact that you have said you would deliver only the best images of from the shoot.

It depends on how she says it.  If she is acting from an over-developed sense of entitlement, you have a problem, because her ego is probably far greater than her ability.

It is more likely that she wants to look at the second-raters so that she can improve what she does.

Marciofs wrote:
I was thinking about get 3 of the worst images, the ones I know the model will be very unhappy with, and send to them after they ask for more photos. And say to them "I have plenty of these ones if you want more". Just to see if they can understand like this.

You are more likely to insult the model with that approach and, consequently, "solve" your problem by having her going off and bad-mouthing you to other models.

With a TF shoot, I prefer to give the model a copy of all the images. I give them a CD or set up a private gallery where all the images are watermarked "unedited proof image" and let the model choose 10 or 15 images to be edited.

This strategy has two clear benefits:

(a) The model gets the images that she prefers, and

(b) I get to work on the images that I like, but in my own time and at my own pace.

Jul 11 13 05:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MB JenB
Posts: 2,867
Clarksville, Tennessee, US


Marciofs wrote:
So you shot TF* with aspiring models and after the shoot you give them from 3 up to 10 images (Let's be honest, 10 photos is a lot).
....
What is your experience with theses models?

Marcio Faustino

Hi,
Model here, now budding photographer who is deciding how to deal with this myself.

I think pre-shoot agreements are pretty solid. If I want to see the pre-edit shots in order to learn what I am doing right or wrong as a model I think it should be discussed. If I want to see any non-releasable shots I think that needs to be discussed or agreed upon. I always thought that the amount of edited/releasable shots is dependant upon how well the shoot went.

What I love is a quick preview of at least one edited shot, if not agreed upon I can wait until there is time.

I do not think that a model should have "all" the shots, especially the bad ones, Not only is there a chance they will release it with your watermark but, honestly I would not want to show a model I shot a picture of her that didn't make her look amazing.

Pre shoot agreements need to work this all out.
Jen

Jul 11 13 05:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 2,275
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


MyrnaByrna Jen B wrote:
If I want to see the pre-edit shots in order to learn what I am doing right or wrong as a model ...


...  I would not want to show a model I shot a picture of her that didn't make her look amazing.

Do you not see a contradiction between these two positions?

Jul 11 13 05:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 8,047
Olney, Maryland, US


MyrnaByrna Jen B wrote:
I think pre-shoot agreements are pretty solid. If I want to see the pre-edit shots in order to learn what I am doing right or wrong as a model I think it should be discussed. If I want to see any non-releasable shots I think that needs to be discussed or agreed upon.
. . .
What I love is a quick preview of at least one edited shot, if not agreed upon I can wait until there is time.

The LCD on the back of the camera is unreliable.  I carry too much equipment to a shoot to include a computer.  Plus I don't have the concentration at the end of a shoot.  If I really love the model, I offer to meet with her at a later date.


MyrnaByrna Jen B wrote:
I always thought that the amount of edited/releasable shots is dependant upon how well the shoot went.

I have plenty of wonderful images that need tweaking to make them presentable.  I only want to use one or two from a shoot.  The rest are furnished as a favor to the model.


MyrnaByrna Jen B wrote:
I do not think that a model should have "all" the shots, especially the bad ones, Not only is there a chance they will release it with your watermark

I think that I would trust you.

MyrnaByrna Jen B wrote:
but, honestly I would not want to show a model I shot a picture of her that didn't make her look amazing.

+1000

Jul 11 13 05:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Gianna Virginia
Posts: 178
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Interesting timely topic for me. I did a shoot for trade 3 weeks ago. It was a 3 and a half hour shoot. I was given 1500 images to look through and choose. I spent 3 more hours trying to figure out what I wanted. He told me I could choose two from each pose location. So I did and I picked about 30 images. Precisely two from each location or spot we shot at.

When he sent me the images he only sent me 12 out of the 30 I picked. I picked 30 because each of those images were in different locations with different looks and poses. I had some really great images that I wanted, and he's not following through. So yeah, I'm a bit disappointed. I spent a lot of time on that shoot too.

It's important to stick to your word. If he told me I could only pick 12, I wouldn't have stayed to shoot for 4hrs. Because at a certain point I knew I got some nice images, I only worked longer because I thought I was gonna get the 2 images per location. And that didn't happen. I saw some great pics that I dont think I'll ever recieve.

I'm happy with what I did get, but still, it wasn't what I was told I would get.
Jul 11 13 06:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
howard r
Posts: 471
Los Angeles, California, US


a model is getting my judgement and my taste in exchange for posing. she has seen my work and she has seen my choices and she says in effect "i want you to do that thing you do only this time i want you to do it using me."

so that's what she gets.

that plus the photographer is the primary artist and therefore the captain of the ship, the same way a director or choreographer are the captains of their respective ships. actors don't get to say "can you make me a dvd using take 5 instead of take 7, and no offense, but can you change the music while you're at it?"

that said, i do tell them upfront what they can expect and i do pay a little money as well, so that on the very rare occasions that i underwhelm myself, i don't have to feel bad about only sending them an image or two.
Jul 11 13 08:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Miss Photog
Posts: 287
VALLEY VILLAGE, California, US


JGLabs wrote:
Also, the images I like are never the ones the model likes.

And this is quite common.

i LOVE the ones that are well lit, well composed, are amazing photographs.
The model LOVES the ones that are bad photos, but she looks good in them.

So twice the work for me unfortunately sad

But again, it's a labor of love.

My point is, for TFCD, it's not about how many you provide, it's about providing the ones the model wants/needs. She's giving you her time for free because she needs work for her port, so don't pick the images for her, let her pick the ones she wants. You can set whatever limit you want, 3, 5, images, fine, but she has to be the one to pic them.

There are reasonable limits of course, you don't want bad representations of your work getting out there, so you can always tell her no, if one of the ones she picks isn't an example of your best work.

Josh

you can create a PDF file that they can view with the images (that aren't save-able or a large file) and ask them to pick 1-2 from each look (or whatever number you agree on).
quality over quantity. If you give them a few images that they love, they probably won't complain about wanting more.
plus if they do, you can give them your rates for retouching more. smile

Jul 11 13 08:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
NC Art Photos
Posts: 564
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


Marciofs wrote:
So you shot TF* with aspiring models and after the shoot you give them from 3 up to 10 images (Let's be honest, 10 photos is a lot).

But the model show her surprise saying "How about the other images?" despite the fact that you have said you would deliver only the best images of from the shoot.

And it seems that most of those who complain will be unhappy with you because of it.

What do you do, or what would you do, in this case?

I was thinking about get 3 of the worst images, the ones I know the model will be very unhappy with, and send to them after they ask for more photos. And say to them "I have plenty of these ones if you want more". Just to see if they can understand like this.

What is your experience with theses models?



Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring model?

I usually give the model the right to chose which pics I will give her.  My judgement on retouching of course.  I used to offer up to 2 prints per 36 exposures of film shot - they almost never took them all.  When I shoot digital, I tend to shoot roughly the same amount of digital images that I shot on film.  So it all works out.

Jul 11 13 08:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Zack Zoll
Posts: 2,274
Glens Falls, New York, US


I have to say, this is part of the reason why I've really enjoyed my experience with the last few paid models I've used.  I've been slow as hell in getting stuff developed/scanned/edited, and we're all good.  I don't owe them anything at all, and none of them have hounded me about anything - not even the ones that didn't get a single image that was useful for their portfolio, or which got no images at all.
Jul 11 13 09:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Green Grape
Posts: 270
West Paterson, New Jersey, US


Azimuth Arts wrote:

Um, your idea of "straight up" is a bit odd.  You are suggesting a lie since the OP has stated he still has the three worst images - he kept more than the best.

Better to be really straight up - remind her what was agreed, and that the images she has now are the best of the bunch.

Ok master. Thank you.

Jul 11 13 09:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Miss Havisham Studios
Posts: 287
Los Angeles, California, US


Charge for the editing. No unedited photos go out. Had to learn this the hard way. Unfortunate.
Jul 11 13 10:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Marciofs wrote:
So you shot TF* with aspiring models and after the shoot you give them from 3 up to 10 images (Let's be honest, 10 photos is a lot).

But the model show her surprise saying "How about the other images?" despite the fact that you have said you would deliver only the best images of from the shoot.

And it seems that most of those who complain will be unhappy with you because of it.

What do you do, or what would you do, in this case?

I was thinking about get 3 of the worst images, the ones I know the model will be very unhappy with, and send to them after they ask for more photos. And say to them "I have plenty of these ones if you want more". Just to see if they can understand like this.

What is your experience with theses models?



Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring model?

All of this should be explained before she even arrives at the shoot.
I never commit myself to a specific number of images: I simply say a 'good number of edited images'.
You never know when a look or outfit or lighting combination won't work.

I do however say that the model will get all the images I work on, so if I work on 10, she gets 10; if I work on 50, she gets 50.

Jul 12 13 12:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Images by MR wrote:

Maybe best to have your release signed before the shooting.   If they don't sign ... no shooting.

That won't work here either. Just send them a copy of the paperwork prior to the shoot so they can read-through and approve it (no approval = no shoot).
Then if they don't sign (after the shoot) they don't get any photos - as you may or may not know, I don't need a Model Release to use them here in Europe - even commercially - so the only person that suffers is the model.

Jul 12 13 12:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,908
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


Paige Thomley wrote:
Yeah, maybe she wants more images because the ones you gave her aren't usable to her. This has only happened to me once and I politely explained what my hang up was with the particular photo and it was something the photographer hadn't even noticed. She wonderfully offered to let me view the others. I might add that half of the photographers let me view all of the photos and pick my favorites which we models LOVE and half of them you just cross your fingers and hope they deliver something that you both like.

Or it could be that your model is a photo hog and wants as many pictures as possible instead of one or two of the best! Either way, get things in writing before the shoot even begins.

This usually is not the case. They says they like and are happy with the photos I send to them. But they still ask for more just because they want more.




Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring model?

Jul 12 13 02:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,908
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


JGLabs wrote:
[...]

But hey, they're giving me their time for free, so I don't mind. It's what I love doing.

Cheers
Josh

I don't see it as if they are giving their time for free. They are not receiving compensation with money but they are being compensated with trade. Even if it is just to have fun in a photo shoot. If it was for free they wouldn't be wasting their time with it.

But I offer digital copies and I give free use licence so they can do whatever they want with the images. Even sell if they want. And it is better than money because it doesn't run out like money does. A nude model can make more money selling my photographs than being paid to pose for my photos.




Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring model?

Jul 12 13 02:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,908
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


JGLabs wrote:
[...]
My point is, for TFCD, it's not about how many you provide, it's about providing the ones the model wants/needs. She's giving you her time for free because she needs work for her port, so don't pick the images for her, let her pick the ones she wants. You can set whatever limit you want, 3, 5, images, fine, but she has to be the one to pic them.

There are reasonable limits of course, you don't want bad representations of your work getting out there, so you can always tell her no, if one of the ones she picks isn't an example of your best work.

Josh

When I look for models it is for a specific project so I look for models who want the same result as I describe to them and not anything apart from it which will give me extra work that is not related to the project.

If the model want something specific which is not related to the project she shouldn't be part of it. Instead she should look for photographers interested shooting what she want to have.

Maybe what she wants I may want as well if she offers me a shoot proposal, but now I am focused on what was planed.

Sometimes I agree with models to set two shoots, one for my project and an other for her project. This is the right to to.

The problem with aspiring models is that often they don't want anything but look good in a common sense way. And often the proposal is not makes the model looks.

This is why working with more experienced models is better to make them understand that not all photograph is about the person who is posing but about the character, concept or idea which we are trying to archive.




Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring model?

Jul 12 13 03:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,908
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


Thank you all for the "input".

I will make some changes about it from no. smile
Jul 12 13 03:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gregory D Peck
Posts: 49
MOYOCK, North Carolina, US


If you allow models to choose images to be retouched, what happens if she/he chooses a poorly focused one for example?  Who is the professional judge of image quality?  It wouldn't really help my reputation if something I considered to be an error happened to be the model's favorite and ended up being published everywhere smile

I decide which of the images captured are suitable to be out there.  I have that much control over my professional reputation.  If any model, or client is unhappy with the results of a shoot, I will happily accept their input, and offer a reshoot in order to better meet their expectations.  They should have an idea of what to expect anyway based on my port, website, etc.

Having said that...all of the terms of the shoot and delivery of images are carefully spelled out in my contract/release which is provided for review/acceptance in advance of the shoot.  If the terms are not acceptable to the model, then of course they are free to decline.

If any "choice" is offered to a model or client, it will be to choose 3 of 5, or 5 of 10.  Something like that.  No one will ever have the opportunity to choose a technical error from an entire batch of 100-150 images, then put that out there as their fav.  Just sayin smile

Just my .02 smile
Jul 12 13 04:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
denis071
Posts: 93
Sarajevo, Federacija Bosna i Hercegovina, Bosnia and Herzegovina


I give almost all pictures from the shoot, unedited, in jpg, for free use under condition to sign my name at every eventual publishing.

but it looks like a good practice to limit the number of photos up to 10 per scene.

I gues I have to change practice wink
Jul 12 13 04:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kerri Sullivan Photo
Posts: 98
Red Bank, New Jersey, US


I usually don't mention an image number when planning shoots. But if someone asks, I always under promise and over deliver. I'll say 10 images and then give her 20.

Since I've never had an issue with image # in TF*, I don't give this info to models, but I do tell paying clients the following:

"It can take me 10 shots to get 1 good one. Sometimes we'll try a pose and then when I go back and look at the photos, I can tell it didn't really work. I always go through ALL of the images from our shoot and select the very best ones. I've given those to you. I've left out ones that weren't flattering, had blinks, or were blurry or incorrectly exposed."

No one's ever given me a hard time about number of images. In my pricing/info page, I have a little blurb saying to "trust me" about image number delivery and that none of my clients have ever been dissatisfied with the number given.
Jul 12 13 06:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eye of the World
Posts: 744
Corvallis, Oregon, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
Interesting timely topic for me. I did a shoot for trade 3 weeks ago. It was a 3 and a half hour shoot. I was given 1500 images to look through and choose. I spent 3 more hours trying to figure out what I wanted. He told me I could choose two from each pose location. So I did and I picked about 30 images. Precisely two from each location or spot we shot at.

When he sent me the images he only sent me 12 out of the 30 I picked. I picked 30 because each of those images were in different locations with different looks and poses. I had some really great images that I wanted, and he's not following through. So yeah, I'm a bit disappointed. I spent a lot of time on that shoot too.

It's important to stick to your word. If he told me I could only pick 12, I wouldn't have stayed to shoot for 4hrs. Because at a certain point I knew I got some nice images, I only worked longer because I thought I was gonna get the 2 images per location. And that didn't happen. I saw some great pics that I dont think I'll ever recieve.

I'm happy with what I did get, but still, it wasn't what I was told I would get.

Ask yourself whether you really want/need 30 images from the same photographer. Even in different locations, his style is likely to be pretty consistent and you need to be showing your range. Since your current profile here looks like it is limited to 15 images, two or three from that particular photographer is probably the max you should be posting anyway.

That said, has he informed you that is all you are going to get? It could be that processing 30 images is taking a lot more time than he expected and he has just sent the first batch.

Do you have the "two from each location" in writing? If so, and if you feel you really, really need them, you might politely remind and inquire about the status of the remainder. Don't burn any bridges or approach things in a way that might lead to negative comments to other photographers.

If it was a verbal thing, you might say something like, "Hey, I really like the shots you sent. I recall you saying I could choose two images from each location but I may have misunderstood and understand that processing 30 images might be a bit much. There were these others (pick your 3-4 absolute faves and give him the numbers again) that I was really hoping to get that were not in the 12 you sent. So if you can't process the entire 30, could you please add these few to my set also? It was a lot of fun working with you and look forward to sharing these in my portfolio."

Jul 12 13 10:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 1,178
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Gianna Virginia wrote:
Interesting timely topic for me. I did a shoot for trade 3 weeks ago. It was a 3 and a half hour shoot. I was given 1500 images to look through and choose. I spent 3 more hours trying to figure out what I wanted. He told me I could choose two from each pose location. So I did and I picked about 30 images. Precisely two from each location or spot we shot at.

When he sent me the images he only sent me 12 out of the 30 I picked. I picked 30 because each of those images were in different locations with different looks and poses. I had some really great images that I wanted, and he's not following through. So yeah, I'm a bit disappointed. I spent a lot of time on that shoot too.

It's important to stick to your word. If he told me I could only pick 12, I wouldn't have stayed to shoot for 4hrs. Because at a certain point I knew I got some nice images, I only worked longer because I thought I was gonna get the 2 images per location. And that didn't happen. I saw some great pics that I dont think I'll ever recieve.

I'm happy with what I did get, but still, it wasn't what I was told I would get.

If he promised 2 per look than great he should deliver. Also 1500 hundred shots in 3.5 hours? Who is he kidding.  What he got the camera on, continuous shooting. 

I would typically do 300 to 400 shots at most.  And if I was the model I would go catatonic looking through 1500 images to pick 30

Jul 12 13 10:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Untitled Photographer
Posts: 1,179
Dallas, Texas, US


I explain that if I take 100 photos my hope is that 5-10 will be good ones and that he/she will get a copy of the good ones and the others will never be see the light of day. This has worked well for me. And I wouldn't have a problem giving them 50 shots if they were good and worth the pp time. There is no benefit in holding back good shots from a model whose image I used to create them in the first place.

But I'm very clear about this up front, if the photos don't meet my own standards no one is going to see them.
Jul 12 13 04:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Charlie-CNP
Posts: 2,592
New York, New York, US


Solution: work with experienced models that simply want "the shot" from the session, and make sure that is what they want in writing prior to the shoot. done. It is quite ridiculous to have more than 2-3 of the same look in ones port whether you are a photographer or model anyways. We are only as strong as our weakest images, and if you have 2 good images from the look vs. 10 bad ones that dilute your portfolio, you are technically weakening your hand when you pitch to others for legitimate work.

I understand that everyone wants their time valued and the most out of it for their time, but still most of the time there are actually only going to be 1 or 2 images from an entire shoot even from the best photographers that are the "wow" factor. Heck, even Ansel Adams said that he made only 6-12 images that he was completely blown away by per year in one of his books.

bottom line, it is always best to put your best foot forward. good luck
Jul 12 13 04:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hank West 1
Posts: 28
Los Angeles, California, US


Who cares?  Give them what they want.  Let them proof and tell them to pick ten, or, however many you don't mind retouching.  For me, oftentimes, what they like and what I like are two different things and I'm only going to use one or two images from the shoot anyway. No need to restrictive. Be generous.  Your models will love you for it and they'll tell their model friends that you are cool.  As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
Jul 13 13 09:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ybfoto
Posts: 645
Oakland, California, US


3 images? Did I read that right. How long was the shoot. Was that just for one look? How long was the shoot?

In any event in the future be precise. Say 5 to 10 edited web sized images for promo. Or 2 images per look etc...
Jul 13 13 09:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dave McDermott
Posts: 263
Coill Dubh, Kildare, Ireland


Viator-Defessus Photos wrote:
The problem is that the model rarely agrees with me what the 10 best images are. Who's right and who's wrong seems to be rather subjective and varies depending on who you ask.

This is true. I recently sent a model what I thought were the 10 best photos from the shoot. She said she wanted to see more so I sent her another 10 which I didn't really like, and she replied saying some of them were better than the first 10 I sent her. She then requested to see all the photos.

I told her her I could send her more but they wouldn't be re-touched as I wouldn't have time to edit them all. I sent her 50 in total and surprise suprise, she used some photos that I didn't like to put in her port. She also couldn't tell the difference between the edited photos and the unedited photos.

I agree with what another photographer said in a similar thread that its mostly inexperienced models that do this.

Jul 14 13 12:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Drew Smith Photography
Posts: 5,209
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom


My TF Release states that I will send the model between 1-20 post processed thumbnail shots, via email, within the first two weeks. Starting with the first 1 or 2 images being delivered within 24-48hrs.

I also state that high resolution JPegs of any of the thumbnails sent are available on request. My work flow produces these anyway and it's TF so the model is entitled to them if she wants them imo.

In reality, to date, I've always been able to send images within those time frames. And I've never had a shoot go so badly wrong where I've delivered only 1 shot.

I've always started delivering shots with the first day or so because if I'm not excited enough to want to work on those images straight after the shoot then I wouldn't have booked the shoot in the first place.

But this is just me. I'm kinda enthusiastic.
Jul 14 13 12:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
imcFOTO
Posts: 579
Bothell, Washington, US


Marciofs wrote:

I am the creator so I know what is the best on what I want to archive. The model is just a collaborator who agree to be part of the project in exchange for the result I wanted to archive only.

Ten is a lot when you shoot usually 15 or 30 images per session with 6x7 (120) negative.

That attitude would be fine if you were paying the model but since it's a trade shoot, it has to be fair and equitable. So you pick what you like and give her 5 edited shots back - if she doesn't really like any of them, she has NOTHING from the shoot at all. I think you need to re-examine it from the model's point of view.

Personally, on a TFCD shoot, I consider it a partnership. I may direct the shoot but I also value the model's contribution. I like to make as many images available (unedited, non-downloadable) for the model to see (especially important for a new model) and I usually let them pick 10 to 15 for edits and I do about the same myself. The final set (up to 30 maybe) will then be available to the model for download - and she can use them for anything as long as it is non-commercial and that the shots are not edited or changed. It has worked out very well for both me and the models. Now maybe it is different for you if you are working with film and not digital - but you still need to better clarify what the model can expect.

Jul 14 13 12:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
imcFOTO
Posts: 579
Bothell, Washington, US


Hank West 1 wrote:
Who cares?  Give them what they want.  Let them proof and tell them to pick ten, or, however many you don't mind retouching.  For me, oftentimes, what they like and what I like are two different things and I'm only going to use one or two images from the shoot anyway. No need to restrictive. Be generous.  Your models will love you for it and they'll tell their model friends that you are cool.  As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

That's exactly the right attitude - it's good karma and it's also good networking. Besides, it can be quite educational seeing what someone else thinks are the best images.

Jul 14 13 12:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ali Choudhry Photo
Posts: 176
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


I have the minimum number of images (for tfp usually 1 to 3 depending on the shoot) in my model release. If they want more afterwards, they can pay for them.
Jul 14 13 02:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,908
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


ybfoto wrote:
3 images? Did I read that right. How long was the shoot. Was that just for one look? How long was the shoot?

In any event in the future be precise. Say 5 to 10 edited web sized images for promo. Or 2 images per look etc...

1 or 2 looks, from 15 to 30 photos taken in from 20 to 40 min.

Jul 14 13 05:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,908
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


imcFOTO wrote:
That attitude would be fine if you were paying the model but since it's a trade shoot, it has to be fair and equitable. So you pick what you like and give her 5 edited shots back - if she doesn't really like any of them, she has NOTHING from the shoot at all. I think you need to re-examine it from the model's point of view.

Personally, on a TFCD shoot, I consider it a partnership. I may direct the shoot but I also value the model's contribution. I like to make as many images available (unedited, non-downloadable) for the model to see (especially important for a new model) and I usually let them pick 10 to 15 for edits and I do about the same myself. The final set (up to 30 maybe) will then be available to the model for download - and she can use them for anything as long as it is non-commercial and that the shots are not edited or changed. It has worked out very well for both me and the models. Now maybe it is different for you if you are working with film and not digital - but you still need to better clarify what the model can expect.

I have being doing it for about 4 years shooting constantly and only recently, after moving to Germany, I had this kind of problem with 2 models.

When I present the project and my portfolio to models they know what they will get. They can't expect getting what wasn't proposed. If they want something that is not related to the project they can ask me to shoot the project they want.

Often I set two shoots, one for my project and one for model's project. Otherwise the project lose its focus and and the time and vision that should be spent in a concept, when distracted from other interest influence the quality of the entire work.

A part from theses 2 last models every model I have shot was happy.

Jul 14 13 05:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David J Martin
Posts: 455
Amberg, Bavaria, Germany


The answer is simple, let her see the images from the shoot and let her decide which 10 she wants and then give them to her.  Retouch as is reasonable. 

What is good for your style may not represent the style that she wants to portray. 

It should be their choice.  This is how to make them feel as though the trade was beneficial to them also, not just you.  As it is, she worked (yes worked, not traded) for you for free if not getting images beneficial to her.  Her payment/part of the trade, was images she wants, not the ones you in all your wisdom know that the silly girl should just be happy with.
Jul 14 13 06:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,067
Alexandria, Virginia, US


My policy on images is in my profile.  I ask models to be familiar with the information in my profile before a shoot.  This includes my policy on images.  They can ask for anything they want - they get what I state in my profile that they will get.

If a model hits me up to shoot and I see that she wants full CDs or "Raw" images or "shared rights" etc I decline and specify why.  Perhaps she can learn from that - perhaps not -

I am not responsible for what a model "wants" or thinks is "fair".   If she does not accept the terms of working with me,  that is her privilege, and vice versa.....
Jul 14 13 06:03 am  Link  Quote 
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