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Forums > Photography Talk > TFP : are you selecting the picts yourself? Search   Reply
123last
Photographer
Valenten Photography
Posts: 265
Balikpapan, Kalimantan Timur, Indonesia


Hey guys,

Usually, when shooting TFP, I send all the picts in very low resolution to the model so that she can make a selection. I then make my retouching selection based on both my tastes and those that the model selected. 10-20 picts in total.

I think it's fair like this because the model and I usually have very different selections (suprisingly). But sometimes it can be "boring" because my selection and her selection are really different.

Are you letting your model check the picts before you retouch them ?

Best regards,

Valenten
http://www.valentenphotography.com
Jul 12 13 04:34 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,763
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


I can tell you already that there will be some outraged photographers replying in this thread, partly because you let your model chose and partly because you edit 20 pictures from a shoot wink.

As a model, i prefer it when I have a say in which images gets selected. I don't mind if I don't get that opportunity, but I do appreciate it.
Jul 12 13 04:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
hs photography
Posts: 468
Houston, Texas, US


Valenten Photography wrote:
Hey guys,

Usually, when shooting TFP, I send all the picts in very low resolution to the model so that she can make a selection. I then make my retouching selection based on both my tastes and those that the model selected. 10-20 picts in total.

I think it's fair like this because the model and I usually have very different selections (suprisingly). But sometimes it can be "boring" because my selection and her selection are really different.

Are you letting your model check the picts before you retouch them ?

Best regards,

Valenten
http://www.valentenphotography.com

That's a good plan too.  I allow the models to view the images during the shoot on my camera and delete the ones they don't like.  This indicates to me that they have chosen the ones they like.  I use that as a guide to choose the ones I edit.  It's been my experience that often, the way an image looks on my camera screen isn't how it will look on the computer.  At post, I check for focus, composition, lighting... all the technical stuff.  I edit the ones that meet my standards. Most of the models I shoot with are satisfied with this process.

Jul 12 13 04:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,806
London, England, United Kingdom


This is such a common topic, I suggest you search this very forum "Photography Talk" where you'll already see what's been discussed today.
Jul 12 13 05:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Anna Adrielle wrote:
I can tell you already that there will be some outraged photographers replying in this thread, partly because you let your model chose and partly because you edit 20 pictures from a shoot wink

You know you can count on me!

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?threa … st18364741





Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jul 12 13 05:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 2,912
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


I prefer that the model chooses the photos she likes. 

Not only does she get the photos she wants, rather than the photos I think she might want, it takes the pressure off me to try to guess her tastes.

The only downside is that sometimes the models take forever to make up their minds.  I have several in the queue at the moment from shoots in March who still have yet to get back to me with their preferences.
Jul 12 13 07:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,119
Alexandria, Virginia, US


The better and more experienced the model I test or trade with, the fewer images she wants and the more likely she is to ask me to make the selections.  Many have traded with me on the basis of getting one portfolio worthy image from the shoot, of my selection.

Many of the models I trade with are mostly modeling for pay or are with agencies non-exclusively or shooting with me out of their exclusive area, and are wanting portfolio updates to keep the level of interest in their work.

In most cases they have reached out to me to shoot for them, based on what they see in my portfolio -  and I made the selections of images that drew them to me.

I also offer any images I decide to edit for my own use.

With less experienced models they tend to want more thinking that quantity is quality and thinking that they can make image selections better than a professional....    so I tend to avoid shooting with them....

I will *at most* edit 2-3 image selections by the model

As with everything in life "fair" has nothing to do with it.   It's about value for value.  If a model does not perceive value in what I offer she is most welcome to shoot with someone else...

FWIW I am booked til August 26.....
Jul 12 13 07:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R.EYE.R
Posts: 2,820
Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan


natural beauties of qld wrote:
I prefer that the llama chooses the photos she likes. 

Not only does she get the photos she wants, rather than the photos I think she might want, it takes the pressure off me to try to guess her tastes.

The only downside is that sometimes the llamas take forever to make up their minds.  I have several in the queue at the moment from shoots in March who still have yet to get back to me with their preferences.

1

Jul 12 13 07:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,844
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


That Italian Guy wrote:

You know you can count on me!

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?threa … st18364741

I use a similar strategy that you do and I never let the model have final word on any of the photos. I call it my "Butt Looks Big" rule. The model will gravitate to photos where "my butt doesn't look big" but is out of focus or cropped poorly rather than looking at whether the composition, focus, and exposure is proper.

I did a shoot a few years ago for a client of mine who did sporting event photography of little league teams at their national finals and sold the photos, in packages, to the parents of their kids playing. They had a few newbie photographers working and I remember quite vividly them telling them that the #1 rule was, no matter how much a parent begs you on the field, you never, EVER show them photos in the camera. NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER! Because parents are notorious for picking bad photos, or driving you crazy about why you didn't shoot "Little Johnny" over on the 10 yard line or why you didn't get a better photo of him before he got dirt on his uniform or things like that. Nope, sorry models, you have to trust in my judgement on this matter and if I do decide to share with you what is chosen from the shoot before retouching, it will be of the chosen set, not the entire shoot.

Jul 12 13 07:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L2Photography net
Posts: 2,534
University City, Missouri, US


Valenten Photography wrote:
Hey guys,

Usually, when shooting TFP, I send all the picts in very low resolution to the model so that she can make a selection. I then make my retouching selection based on both my tastes and those that the model selected. 10-20 picts in total.

I think it's fair like this because the model and I usually have very different selections (suprisingly). But sometimes it can be "boring" because my selection and her selection are really different.

Are you letting your model check the picts before you retouch them ?

Best regards,

Valenten
http://www.valentenphotography.com

I think what you are doing is great but giving them a low rez CD I once did that and then got tired of seeing the photos posted. So I now up  load the small rez on my web site to view.. Some have even taken photos with their phone and tried to post them but they have my watermark big on them
L2

Jul 12 13 07:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jhono Bashian
Posts: 2,432
Cleveland, Ohio, US


Anna Adrielle wrote:
I can tell you already that there will be some outraged photographers replying in this thread, partly because you let your model chose and partly because you edit 20 pictures from a shoot wink.

As a model, i prefer it when I have a say in which images gets selected. I don't mind if I don't get that opportunity, but I do appreciate it.

Agree... Since most of my professional work is collaborative anyway so I'll sit down with the stylist, art director, talent, etc., after the shoot or after I have done a first edit and pick the hero shot from there. Knowing that we all have a different eye and our personal likes/dislikes are subjective. I realize that it's an extra step of time and energy but everyone is happy and gets what they want..   

If this is too cumbersome, I'll upload 8 to 10 images from each scenario to the PixOasis /Digital Delivery System to be viewed and downloaded. SOP is a 4x6 jpeg@300ppi w/ metadata embedded and a studio logo and © layered on the image.

Jul 12 13 07:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,235
New York, New York, US


If a model decides to work with you - it's based on your port and the images that you put in that port; that you chose. 

Why would you then let the model decide what images she should get? 

That seems counter productive but what the heck do I know...  big_smile

I chose a batch and she has to chose from that batch after I get rid of the bad ones. How many is debatable.
Jul 12 13 07:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chris David Photography
Posts: 475
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


When I do work on collaborative shoots and talk to the team about their other past shoot experiences the biggest complaint they have were photographers giving them images that are completely useless to them and had their time wasted because the photographer picked all the images. In a collaborative shoot I think each member should be able entitled to pick a few images they are happy and this would still rarely add to 20 images. If a images is soft/out of focus, unflattering or bad just point the problems why it may not be a great choice - it all comes down to communication. Each member should benefit or what was the point of them offering their services or to keep offering.
Personal shoots/projects are a little different but still doesn't hurt in most cases depending on how they are being compensate.
That being said it doesn't mean they need to see every image taken -most times I delete whatever needs deleting before they see it.
Jul 12 13 08:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marcio Faustino
Posts: 2,009
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


Valenten Photography wrote:
Hey guys,

Usually, when shooting TFP, I send all the picts in very low resolution to the model so that she can make a selection. I then make my retouching selection based on both my tastes and those that the model selected. 10-20 picts in total.

I think it's fair like this because the model and I usually have very different selections (suprisingly). But sometimes it can be "boring" because my selection and her selection are really different.

Are you letting your model check the picts before you retouch them ?

Best regards,

Valenten
http://www.valentenphotography.com

It depends, who's the project? If the model planed and envisioned the project how can I know which images works the best for what she planed. I can think the ones I picked are better but it is her project and I am just in it because I trusted on her work.

The same the opposite. If the project is mine I pick the images doesn't matter if the models feels ugly or strange of the chosen photograph. It is not about her it is about the project.

I don't have this kind of issue with dancers photographing dance poses, or athletes. They even help because even on the photos they don't look "beautiful" the poses, scenes and movement are good and this is what matter.

While aspiring models even after explaining that it is about a character she represents they still look at the photos as if it was her portrait photo session.


Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring model?

Jul 12 13 08:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,548
Salem, Oregon, US


i always let the model choose. this totally avoids the whole problem of "do you have any more to show me?"

for our senior shoots we say that we will choose (to avoid having to do online proofing) but we give them 20-30 images so they'll have plenty to choose from. others do in-house proofing in the hope of selling more product.

some photographers keep the model after the shoot and they make the selects together.
Jul 12 13 09:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 10,224
Santa Ana, California, US


Fotografica Gregor wrote:
The better and more experienced the model I test or trade with, the fewer images she wants and the more likely she is to ask me to make the selections.  Many have traded with me on the basis of getting one portfolio worthy image from the shoot, of my selection.

With less experienced models they tend to want more thinking that quantity is quality and thinking that they can make image selections better than a professional....    so I tend to avoid shooting with them....

As with everything in life "fair" has nothing to do with it.   It's about value for value.  If a model does not perceive value in what I offer she is most welcome to shoot with someone else...

I really like it when all I have to do is quote someone who just said what I'd take a lot of time typing.

Jul 12 13 09:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JAE
Posts: 2,139
West Chester, Pennsylvania, US


I always pick the images myself.
Jul 12 13 09:49 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,763
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


That Italian Guy wrote:

You know you can count on me!

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?threa … st18364741





Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

I definitely don't disagree with that tactic smile. One of the very annoying things when you get to chose as a model, is when you absolutely fall in love with a (unedited) picture, tell the photographer "I LOVE this one, would love to have it", and get a reply back "oh sorry, that one is out of focus.". ARGH then why did you show it to me big_smile??

But I will also say that I have learned (and still learn) the most from shoots (especially when I was just starting out as a model) where I got to see all the pictures. When you just get awesome results, you're just seeing all the things you did right. When you see the entire shoot, you also see all the pictures where you should have turned more to the side, your chin should have been higher or lower, your hands should have been more relaxed, your face should have been turned the other way, your right knee should have been straight, etcetera. You see all the mistakes you made, and you learn from them.

Jul 12 13 10:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jakov Markovic
Posts: 1,128
Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia


It depends on the agreement, but usually I select the images.
Jul 12 13 07:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Instinct Images
Posts: 22,617
San Diego, California, US


Valenten Photography wrote:
Hey guys,

Usually, when shooting TFP, I send all the picts in very low resolution to the model so that she can make a selection. I then make my retouching selection based on both my tastes and those that the model selected. 10-20 picts in total.

I think it's fair like this because the model and I usually have very different selections (surprisingly). But sometimes it can be "boring" because my selection and her selection are really different.

Are you letting your model check the picts before you retouch them ?

Best regards,

Valenten
http://www.valentenphotography.com

That's how I prefer to do it also. I too am often surprised when I pick out what I think are the best shots and the model doesn't like them. Some of the most popular images in my portfolio were never used in the model's portfolio for whatever reason.

Jul 12 13 07:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
H A Z E
Posts: 82
London, England, United Kingdom


Marin Photography NYC wrote:
If a model decides to work with you - it's based on your port and the images that you put in that port; that you chose. 

Why would you then let the model decide what images she should get? 

That seems counter productive but what the heck do I know...  big_smile

I chose a batch and she has to chose from that batch after I get rid of the bad ones. How many is debatable.

+1 totally agree..
I usually choose them but some models who give 110% on the day I let them choose additional ones

Jul 12 13 07:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 7,735
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


I'm one of those crazy photographers who lets the model view all the photos on my laptop right after the TF shooting & let her pick her fav 10 for retouching.

Crazy I know but seems to work for me smile
Jul 12 13 08:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 7,735
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Marin Photography NYC wrote:
If a model decides to work with you - it's based on your port and the images that you put in that port; that you chose. 

Why would you then let the model decide what images she should get? 

That seems counter productive but what the heck do I know...  big_smile

I chose a batch and she has to chose from that batch after I get rid of the bad ones. How many is debatable.

A bunch of the photos in my port were picked by the models.

Jul 12 13 08:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Instinct Images
Posts: 22,617
San Diego, California, US


Images by MR wrote:
I'm one of those crazy photographers who lets the model view all the photos on my laptop right after the TF shooting & let her pick her fav 10 for retouching.

Crazy I know but seems to work for me smile

If there's time I have the model do that too. I find it's more reliable than sending them a link to low rez versions of the images and trying to get them to send me a list of filenames of the images they like.

Jul 12 13 09:29 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,763
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Instinct Images wrote:

That's how I prefer to do it also. I too am often surprised when I pick out what I think are the best shots and the model doesn't like them. Some of the most popular images in my portfolio were never used in the model's portfolio for whatever reason.

have you ever asked them why they didn't use those shots themselves, what their reason is?

Jul 13 13 12:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Depends on the llama - if she was bright and cheerful, full of energy and ideas and excited by the images on the LCD screen as we shot then some consultation is likely.

Last weekend's llama was in constant communication afterwards, providing feedback on the images as they were delivered to her Dropbox (I trickle-feed them in as they're completed as I find the llama is usually as excited as I am to see the results) and offering suggestions about which ones she'd like to use. Because of her obvious enthusiasm (and telling me how awesome I was - which always helps!) I did my best to accommodate her wishes, even going so far as to retouch a couple that I didn't consider particularly worthy - after seeing them she agreed with me that the best way to deal with those shots was to re-shoot them, as she was particularly keen on that particular series.

Otherwise I just send out the ones I think represented the shoot best.

The llama I shot the following day didn't seem particularly enthused by the results, offered no feedback and so got the minimum I considered necessary, even though I considered the images on the whole to be better than from the previous session.
Jul 13 13 12:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Green Grape
Posts: 287
West Paterson, New Jersey, US


Delete all unwanted, bad, neverwanabeseen photos. THEN do what you do. This way, you won't have second thought of the models choice of photos.
Jul 13 13 12:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Barnes Photography
Posts: 215
Palmerston North, Manawatu-Wanganui, New Zealand


I always choose and tell the model so beforehand. If it's a TF shoot, though, and there are shots he/she wants, I make sure we nail them and check we've nailed them.

I don't choose or let the model choose from back of camera or on first look for a number of reasons. Sometimes, blown up on a monitor, a shot may be slightly soft or some detail not perfect. A shot that looked great at first glance may not seem the same way after you've lived with it a little.

Also, I know what post-production I plan to do, so often I shoot in a way where the out of camera shot looks flat or bland or 'missing something'. I can't expect the model to be able to read my mind.

I normally do 10-25 shots edited up for the model, depending on the number of looks.
Jul 13 13 02:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sarah Jane Photographie
Posts: 195
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


For my first shoot, I edited and posted the pictures I liked.
For my second, the model made it clear that she wanted to approve certain pictures.
For my third, I did the same as the first.

I'd prefer to go through and edit them with my own discretion, but right now I'm willing to hear from my model to see what they like. It's probably important to put something in a TFP contract about edited images beforehand.
Jul 13 13 03:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Amul La La
Posts: 818
Plymouth, England, United Kingdom


I Pick ultimately.


But If it's a winner and we both pick it that's a win win, I will never release anything that is under par, - unless we have a deeper understanding, they are completely in love with the shot, and they vow to not use it to promote, (rather keep in a personal album or frame it in their home.).
Jul 13 13 06:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BlueMoonPics
Posts: 4,378
New York, New York, US


I upload all viable images to a Dropbox account and let the model choose up to 8 for her portfolio.  I retouch the images she chooses.  Many times I choose one or two of the images the model chose for my own portfolio.  Sometimes I like to make a different choice altogether.
Jul 13 13 07:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Valenten Photography
Posts: 265
Balikpapan, Kalimantan Timur, Indonesia


Hey,

Thank you for all these very interesting answers.

What I get from them : since I'm shooting only TFP so far, I should make a selection of the pictures I like, and let her choose a few ones from that list   the ones I choose myself.

Indeed, as I was showing all of them (even if only in low res), it often happened to me to 'disagree' whereas the llama only looks at how she looks (and not about the focus etc).

Valenten
http://www.valentenphotography.com
Jul 13 13 07:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Kaley
Posts: 46
Kenosha, Wisconsin, US


During the shoot I show them many of the shots, but very, very quickly.  After the shoot I rate them; cull out typically half of the shots; and then initial process (color, density, and crop) the rest in RAW; these are saved as DNGs and also as small jpegs.  This takes typically 4-6 hours, but gives me some control over what others see and lets the model learn what she might like to do differently.  I believe TF is about images to show ability and especially about learning for myself and the model. 

Another quick culling of the jpegs with my wife (invaluable second opinion but
still within my vision) and I provide them to the model.  The model then chooses 4-6 images (total - number pre-agreed on but more if requested for a very small charge) that I retouch from the DNGs and provide back in small res and high res. Yes, occasionally a model chooses an image included for learning but I think is not post worthy.  I simply talk to them about why and suggest choosing another. And sometimes (especially when a shoot goes absolutely great) I suggest a model choose a couple more than agreed on and let me choose the final ones.  This has worked very well for both of us

I ask them to only post the retouched images, but of course that only works
sometimes.  Also, often they take forever to choose their selections.  But again,
that initial processing gives me some control.

Are there exceptions?  Certainly.  One model I have worked with several times
is so good she gets 90% of the images. She is a former New York runway model and is easily as picky as me.  Also, she is very good at retouching and does her own.  The ultimate win-win for me.
Jul 13 13 08:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 18,079
Albany, New York, US


Darren Brade wrote:
This is such a common topic, I suggest you search this very forum "Photography Talk" where you'll already see what's been discussed today.

Ah yes, the MM's version of Catch-22.

If they do a search & respond, we fillet them for reviving a long-dead thread. If they start a new thread, we bitch at them for not doing a search.

Jul 13 13 08:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rebel Photo
Posts: 11,446
Florence, South Carolina, US


A professional Photographer picks out select images  that represent his work for review by the client. Unless the Client is trained in Composition and all that technical stuff that makes or breaks a photo..they seem to always pick the worst. Do you really want your worst work out in public? If you don't care, you won't be around long...at least not profitably anyway.
Jul 13 13 08:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPRINGHEEL
Posts: 38,195
Gibraltar, Michigan, US


Valenten Photography wrote:
Are you letting your model check the picts before you retouch them ?

No

Jul 13 13 08:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 34,556
San Diego, California, US


It depends.

Whatever seems appropriate at the time.

I'm easy.
Jul 13 13 09:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 36,642
Columbus, Ohio, US


Valenten Photography wrote:
Are you letting your model check the picts before you retouch them ?

Best regards,

Valenten
http://www.valentenphotography.com

I consider their input, if they take the time to do so before leaving. Key word....consider.

Jul 13 13 09:12 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Miroslava Svoboda
Posts: 555
Seattle, Washington, US


I sometimes pick my own photos. Also I sometimes pick photos of others for photographers oh and even ones that go into magazines sometimes too smile
Jul 13 13 09:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
1472
Posts: 1,059
Pembroke Pines, Florida, US


Marin Photography NYC wrote:
If a model decides to work with you - it's based on your port and the images that you put in that port; that you chose. 

Why would you then let the model decide what images she should get? 

That seems counter productive but what the heck do I know...  big_smile

I chose a batch and she has to chose from that batch after I get rid of the bad ones. How many is debatable.

Same way I roll

Jul 13 13 09:47 am  Link  Quote 
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