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first123
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,509
Los Angeles, California, US


Tiffany_B wrote:
Which is exactly what the OP said happened to her on own of her shoots and was the catalyst for her putting together even a basic hair kit. She showed up on set prepped to do make-up and the photographer also expected her to do beach waves on the llama's super straight hair...

That point I understand.

I thought the conversation had evolved about simply whether an MUA should be able to do hair.

From an MUA business point of view, I think the answer is "yes." That being said, I think even if an MUA CAN do hair, she should be asked ahead of time if it's ok, as the rate and/or general agreement may be different.

I also think that the answer to "Should an MUA be expected to do hair?" is no.

Jul 26 13 04:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Svetlana Muerte
Posts: 895
Austin, Texas, US


This is just a hobby for me, so take my point of view for what it is worth. (And there are a lot of members here for whom this is a hobby.)

If I have a choice to hire someone who does both versus having to coordinate with 2 people, I choose to hire the one who does both. For one, it's fewer people for me to coordinate. Also, being that this is a hobby, I do need to keep my entertainment budget under control.

I don't *expect* a hair stylist to be proficient in makeup or vice versa. I have hired people to handle just one aspect when that's all I could find.  And for the people arguing about whether a photographer is expected to provide everything: yes, it happens. Specifically, in pinup you will find photographers who provide hair, makeup, wardrobe, retouching. Now, whether they should have a cosmo license in their particular state is another question.

I do find it...well, kind of strange that no one is ensuring which services will be provided for how much $. The fault of any misunderstanding falls on both parties in those cases.
Jul 26 13 04:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LenochkaG
Posts: 14
Los Angeles, California, US


curiosa des yeux wrote:

I'm curious why you charge extra for hair? You're not the first to respond that way, but I really do wonder.

Most professionals I have worked with are very capable of doing hair, and it's usually not an extra expense in terms of money, but it is in terms of time. If the schedule is tight, one person won't usually work and a hairstylist is usually wise. Otherwise, most charge half day/full day rates and they are there to work for a half day or full day regardless of the task so long as it's hair/makeup. I've heard that for filming gigs, they are often even required to do whatever else is needed on set even if it's not related to hair/makeup. Like an all hands on deck sort of thing (I don't work in film, I've just heard it's not uncommon).

Because HAIR - is a different set of skills, that people pay to learn, not even mentioning hair products. I believe if I pay extra money to learn a skill to make a living - it needs to pay off- because it's an investment... it's not a hobby- it's an income.

If someone went to Paul Mitchell school would you expect them to do Makeup?...and not to charge for it? Or would you expect camera operator do behind the scene pictures because he is familiar with camera?

I don't know who you heard all that from, but no one on set is EVER allowed to touch other departments gear and any kind of stuff for that purpose.. Set is a very dangerous place - and it's against UNION or any kind of rules for that purpose to touch other's people stuff.. If you get electrocuted for example - because you tried to help lighting department - production will get sued. You can break the microphone if you are not aware of how to use it..If you move any prop - art department head will be very very mad! Because everything on set in it's place and the way it is -  for a reason ( on professional productions) . In fact - by union rules - makeup should never touch actors hair and definitely not even dream about cutting or trimming it if you don't have a license...

I have never been on set where makeup artist "would be required" to do "whatever else" .. as far as I know - productions hire PA for that.

I don't always charge day/half day rate - it's different depend on project..

The bottom line  is - if everyone does whatever they do the best and runs their department well - any production will be successful.

Jul 26 13 11:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
Keila Sone
Posts: 120
Harrison, New Jersey, US


You're doing twice the work,why would charge less to work harder,all my MUA friends charge for doing 2 jobs,just like photographers would charge extra for videography or editing work.
Plus its never just spray hair spray,cause if that was case they would do it themself,its always curls or ponytail or bun or beachwaves or pin straght which they think is light hair,all require skill and hot tools.Even bed head is not natural…

I get hire to do light hair all the time my rate doesn't change just cause client only need to have the model's  hair brushed.
I charge day rates like any profesional not by look…MUH also charge for two jobs and most MUA & hairstylist can work at same time,saving time verse waiting an 45mins to an hour for the first model,you can have 2 models done in a hour ready to shoot or go to wardrobe.
In the salon setting you charge by services and thats only because your work on comission base and the salon provibes you work,products,equiptment,assistants,receptionist & markets for you.

Chicchowmein wrote:

I would too if I was using a curling iron or whathaveyou.

I wouldn't charge to fluff, or do a little hair spray.

I still would charge less than having a full blown hair stylist on set

Jul 27 13 12:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photographe
Posts: 2,350
Bristol, England, United Kingdom


At the top end it's more about transport. 2 plane tickets are twice the price of 1 plane ticket. Therefore why would I take 2 stylists when I can take 1 stylist and my styling costs to the client were half as much as they could have been. Obviously money isn't always the concern.

At the lower end. Ok we're in the studio today, still got to feed an extra mouth, talk to an extra person, still gotta do twice the contacting people, maybe even twice the retouching, so again, where money or time is concerned it is an issue.

There are of course many advantages of having 2 people rather than 1, but sometimes it can be seen as a luxury, when there is pressure to be competitively priced.

Simply put, it's great value for money.
Jul 27 13 12:35 am  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
Keila Sone
Posts: 120
Harrison, New Jersey, US


Rollo David Snook wrote:
At the top end it's more about transport. 2 plane tickets are twice the price of 1 plane ticket. Therefore why would I take 2 stylists when I can take 1 stylist and my styling costs to the client were half as much as they could have been. Obviously money isn't always the concern.

At the lower end. Ok we're in the studio today, still got to feed an extra mouth, talk to an extra person, still gotta do twice the contacting people, maybe even twice the retouching, so again, where money or time is concerned it is an issue.

There are of course many advantages of having 2 people rather than 1, but sometimes it can be seen as a luxury, when there is pressure to be competitively priced.

Simply put, its great value for money.

Im not sure who you been working with,but I can say I don't know any MUA that does light hair doesn't add an extra cost to their day rates,actually all their MUA that advertise light hair or men grooming had already factor that cost where you used them for hair as well or not as they assumed the client well as them to do hair and if they don't they made more money for less work,but hey if you found MUA's that give up a cheaper price point,good for you.
On another note:
In my experienced photographers are not saving the client any money or biding lower they are just pocketing the hairstylist or/and MUA's salary for them doesn't selves. they quote the client a price with hair & make up included,then look for someone that will "test" a look book or ad campaign,we all seem them,someone that need to building,but doesn't have super bad skills,they wont even paid for transportation,if the shoot deadline is closing in and no takers,they will email MUAs last minute to and ask to do hair,but "the client is on a budget" and only paid this amount for make up…please…in reality the client already paid for everything.

Also want address this misconception being clueless about make up;they do teach you makeup theory in cosmetology school,plus its part of the booklet  you have to study to pass the licensing written exam which may or may not contain question on make up or anatomy,of course you forget as soon ask your out of school because we usually start working at a salon doing hair,but some hairstylist continue to practice both after school,so technique we call do light makeup jobs,I for one can wax and do nails and facials as I did it for my first 2 years working at a salon as most license hairstylist.

On another note:weather people agree with it or not the OP doesn't want to do hair,even if you think she will need it at some point or that she will learned to love it,presure someone into ...The reality of it all is,that assuming the OP has the career goals of reaching the levels high fashion celeb rep. MUA or even film/TV. or even commercial work the majority of agency are separate hair & make up,I know - I checked…yes some have MUH only agency,but its like 2 out 15 major agencies and I know they Macy,CAP,CK & PRADA all hire separate,because they deal with an agency that offers separates and A celebs have separate MUA & Hair again I know about I worked at a celeb salon for many years and they would fly us out to where ever to color & cut their hair,and on TV/Film you do not want to mess with unions on this,the industry isn't going change over night,specially with all these old farts still working at 80 yrs. old doing film/TV hair or makeup…so my point is she will be oh right just being what she loves being a MUA with no pressure of having to take over hair…my advices focus on what you love and perfecting that and building your brand and then well I don't know win FACE-OFF be famous,laugh all the way to bank and never do hair if you don't wanna,you have option of taking the traditional route.

Jul 27 13 02:34 am  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
Keila Sone
Posts: 120
Harrison, New Jersey, US


PS for the record,doing a ponytail is not light hair and it's not easy,its easy to do it on self and some people with asian texture hair,but get a super sleek not bumps or flyaways high ponytail,definately doesnt not take 5mins, which is what light hair is 5min touch ups… click it back maybe,keep it under control wet it down,if you have to blowdry,curl,straight,braid,twist,or put it up even half up,its consider styling,men's grooming just maintaining it is light hair,if you have to give him a diffrent stylist,it now past light hair,its grooming or styling.
Jul 27 13 02:49 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Tara Pagliara MUA
Posts: 701
New York, New York, US


Keila Sone wrote:
PS for the record,doing a ponytail is not light hair and it's not easy,its easy to do it on self and some people with asian texture hair,but get a super sleek not bumps or flyaways high ponytail,definately doesnt not take 5mins, which is what light hair is 5min touch ups… click it back maybe,keep it under control wet it down,if you have to blowdry,curl,straight,braid,twist,or put it up even half up,its consider styling,men's grooming just maintaining it is light hair,if you have to give him a diffrent stylist,it now past light hair,its grooming or styling.

TRUTH

Jul 27 13 06:06 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LenochkaG
Posts: 14
Los Angeles, California, US


Tara Pags wrote:

TRUTH

I absolutely agree and have seen it happened. Photographer was charging client 400$ for makeup, but makeup artist was getting paid 150$... And we figured it out only because I spoke client's native language and was there by complete accident... So let's not talk about saving money to client -why would you do that anyway (especially if it's a big company)- we are in industry to make money - not to be charity workers (unless you want to).

Jul 27 13 06:38 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LenochkaG
Posts: 14
Los Angeles, California, US


Tara, I am sorry.. I don't know why this happened.. I tried to quote Keila Sone

"In my experienced photographers are not saving the client any money or biding lower they are just pocketing the hairstylist or/and MUA's salary for them doesn't selves. they quote the client a price with hair & make up included,then look for someone that will "test" a look book or ad campaign,we all seem them,someone that need to building,but doesn't have super bad skills,they wont even paid for transportation,if the shoot deadline is closing in and no takers,they will email MUAs last minute to and ask to do hair,but "the client is on a budget" and only paid this amount for make up…please…in reality the client already paid for everything".
Jul 27 13 07:07 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,118
Coronado, California, US


After reading the replies here I think most of you are right.... but you're looking at very different areas of the makeup and hair world

Union Jobs

On union jobs you NEVER do makeup and hair but the majority of artists aren't in the union and do not work on union jobs.   Union jobs are generally film, TV and most jobs shooting over 2 weeks at a time....Union jobs don't normally pay as much as a good commercial job in the same area.... As an established artist in LA, NY or any other big city you normally charge much more than your union counterpart for a few reasons...

1)  Union artists work overtime and get benefits
2) Union jobs are steady, Films and TV shoot day after day, and there is some job security even if it's just a month.
3) Union jobs do not require you to do more than 1 thing and in fact do not allow it
4) Union makeup artists are the reasons we have the California entertainment industry exemption on licensing... Most have NO license to do makeup (currently there is no license for makeup specifically in the State of Ca)

Non union TV commercials, videos and print jobs (commercial jobs)

1)  Generally pay better unless you're a newbie but the lines are blurred... You generally are hired to do makeup and hair.

2) You generally work 1 or 2 days, maybe a week and move on (and you don't move on to unemployment, you move onto looking for more work)

3) You may get over time but forget lunch, that may not happen.  You pay for your own medical insurance or just live on prayers that you won't get sick.



Testing work, glamour, portrait and portfolio work....(The majority of what newer artists do and what some seasoned artists do when things are slow or they're in an area with little commercial work)

1) The pay is less, you're working with people that make less and can't pay you more.  There isn't a large money client behind the scenes on a job like this.

2)  You really have to do makeup and hair on these jobs because there is no budget for both

These beginner jobs are where you should be learning hair if you don't know it.

Bridal work (Weddings)

1) You can choose to do just makeup or just hair and not loose many jobs, Brides will gladly hire both.
2) If you know what you're doing and you are very good, your pay should be better then all of the above.  A sought after wedding artist can make $1000.00 in half day EASY and never touch hair. Assuming you're in a good area for brides with money.

Editorial
This is an area all its own because most people don't do this for a living...Pay sucks frankly.
Fashion editorials (Vogue as one example), Request normally separate makeup and hair because they pay very little and get great agency artists to work for next to nothing... Why not splurge?

Lifestyle editorials (People, Ladies home Journal, etc)... Almost always want makeup and hair as ONE person because the story isn't about makeup and hair, it's generally REAL people stories.
Jul 27 13 09:06 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LenochkaG
Posts: 14
Los Angeles, California, US


Mary wrote:
After reading the replies here I think most of you are right.... but you're looking at very different areas of the makeup and hair world

Union Jobs

On union jobs you NEVER do makeup and hair but the majority of artists aren't in the union and do not work on union jobs.   Union jobs are generally film, TV and most jobs shooting over 2 weeks at a time....Union jobs don't normally pay as much as a good commercial job in the same area.... As an established artist in LA, NY or any other big city you normally charge much more than your union counterpart for a few reasons...

1)  Union artists work overtime and get benefits
2) Union jobs are steady, Films and TV shoot day after day, and there is some job security even if it's just a month.
3) Union jobs do not require you to do more than 1 thing and in fact do not allow it
4) Union makeup artists are the reasons we have the California entertainment industry exemption on licensing... Most have NO license to do makeup (currently there is no license for makeup specifically in the State of Ca)

Non union TV commercials, videos and print jobs (commercial jobs)

1)  Generally pay better unless you're a newbie but the lines are blurred... You generally are hired to do makeup and hair.

2) You generally work 1 or 2 days, maybe a week and move on (and you don't move on to unemployment, you move onto looking for more work)

3) You may get over time but forget lunch, that may not happen.  You pay for your own medical insurance or just live on prayers that you won't get sick.


Testing work, glamour, portrait and portfolio work....(The majority of what newer artists do and what some seasoned artists do when things are slow or they're in an area with little commercial work)

1) The pay is less, you're working with people that make less and can't pay you more.  There isn't a large money client behind the scenes on a job like this.

2)  You really have to do makeup and hair on these jobs because there is no budget for both

These beginner jobs are where you should be learning hair if you don't know it.

Bridal work (Weddings)

1) You can choose to do just makeup or just hair and not loose many jobs, Brides will gladly hire both.
2) If you know what you're doing and you are very good, your pay should be better then all of the above.  A sought after wedding artist can make $1000.00 in half day EASY and never touch hair. Assuming you're in a good area for brides with money.

Editorial
This is an area all its own because most people don't do this for a living...Pay sucks frankly.
Fashion editorials (Vogue as one example), Request normally separate makeup and hair because they pay very little and get great agency artists to work for next to nothing... Why not splurge?

Lifestyle editorials (People, Ladies home Journal, etc)... Almost always want makeup and hair as ONE person because the story isn't about makeup and hair, it's generally REAL people stories.

well said!

Jul 27 13 09:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chicchowmein
Posts: 14,348
Palm Beach, Florida, US


LenochkaG wrote:
I absolutely agree and have seen it happened. Photographer was charging client 400$ for makeup, but makeup artist was getting paid 150$... And we figured it out only because I spoke client's native language and was there by complete accident... So let's not talk about saving money to client -why would you do that anyway (especially if it's a big company)- we are in industry to make money - not to be charity workers (unless you want to).

Whenever I have hired a makeup artist for a client -- the client pays the MUA directly.

So I would never do something shady like that.

Not saying it doesn't happen though.

The last gig I went out as a MUA I was paid by the photographer and he did have me do hair.

I had not planned on it but I did have a curling iron so I did some light waves in her hair -- then he added a second model. I did charge him extra for the second girl but I did not charge him extra for the hair.


I felt she needed a little something and I offered. So . . .

But on an editorial a hair person is the first person I hire.

Jul 27 13 11:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Zahra
Posts: 1,080
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


No.  It's an added bonus if they are.
A photographer might be a crappy retoucher, bonus if they can do both.

My fave are the models who say they can do HMUA like a pro.  Pretty rare.
Jul 27 13 11:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17,909
Los Angeles, California, US


Keila Sone wrote:

Im not sure who you been working with,but I can say I don't know any MUA that does light hair doesn't add an extra cost to their day rates,

well I know a ton that don't charge extra and I think it is obvious from my portfolio that i work with talented people at the top of their game.

Jul 27 13 07:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17,909
Los Angeles, California, US


Tiffany_B wrote:

Arranging/Hiring isn't the same as doing. Arranging for a designer to show up isn't the same as styling the looks and hiring a hairstylist or MUA isn't the same as doing hair and make-up yourself. And that's my point.

Ok, I am going to have to be blunt here. YES I DO.

I absolutely have full control over what i am shooting, I AM THE ONE CONTACTING PEOPLE for the pulls. You think when I contact Mildred at mother of London for a specific top for the genie in Aladdin I am NOT doing the work of a stylist?

I am willing to give you a break, you don't seem to work often in the commercial or editorial world, but you have got to stop for a minute and consider who you are talking to and what I do for a living.

I go to the IMATS and the make-up Show and know a ton of the heads of make-up companies, so please understand that when i tell a make-up artist the look I want i am more than able to not only describe it, but sometimes even provide the product, like OCC liptars, to them myself. I am very involved in the looks on my shoots.

I DO NOT WORK WITH PEOPLE WHO CAN'T DO MAKE-UP AND HAIR

I am at the top of my game with a killer portfolio and I know what i am talking about here, ok? You wanna work in MY industry you do both.

Jul 27 13 07:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chicchowmein
Posts: 14,348
Palm Beach, Florida, US


http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/110325/12/4d8ceaea741c3_m.jpg

Styled entirely by me -- everything in this shot is owned by me except the pin in the girl's hair.

The concept was mine -- the model was posed by me.

I did have a makeup person because this was from before I got my certification but I do indeed style almost all of my photos.

http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/120429/00/4f9cef911d1e4_m.jpg

Also styled by me. I had hair and makeup for this but the dress was from my personal wardrobe and I did the jewelry pull. No stylist on set. The flowers were cut from my garden and combined with silk flowers. I drew out and described what I wanted the hair person to do.

I showed a sample of what I wanted done for the makeup.

I can show more recent work where I did everything but as I said I like to work with a hair stylist if I am doing anything more than really simple.

http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/130706/17/51d8b975592c8_m.jpg

Styled by me. makeup by me. Worked with a hair stylist.
Jul 27 13 07:31 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,118
Coronado, California, US


I don't recall what post but someone here said that even print agencies separated makeup and hair... Thats just not true from my experience and in fact almost unheard of in the commercial print world to have a makeup artist that doesn't do hair.

Here are the agencies that I think of when I think of good makeup and hair agencies....

These are the artists that do hair and makeup at the Rex agency.... http://www.therexagency.com/categories. … R---MAKEUP    I bet they are busier then the others. 

The list at Cloutier for Makeup and Hair is a bit longer then the just makeup list.... Hmmmm, wonder who works more?  http://cloutierremix.com/#

Look doesn't even have a "makeup" only section  http://www.lookartistsagency.com/HAIR-+ … ty/thumbs/


IA doesn't rep makeup alone, just makeup and hair  http://www.iaagency.com/#mi=1&pt=0&pi=1 … &a=-1&at=0

the artist agency does not list makeup artists that do not do hair  http://www.theartistagency.com/hair-and … rtists.php

Zenobia, my own rep doesn't rep just makeup as far as I can tell  http://www.zenobia.com/
Jul 29 13 12:27 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Carley Chamberlain
Posts: 8
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I think that in everyone's best scenario we's all get to do what we're best at.

In a paid scenario - wouldn't you want the BEST work you can get? Not "light hair"?

In a test/tfp scenario you'd want the same - the absolute best. Not mediocre - or what's the point?

If the MUA/H claims to be amazing at both - by all means book one person. But if you are getting people who are admittedly novice at one or the other it makes no sense to expect them to handle both.

Props to you who can do it all! I don't want to! LOL
Jul 29 13 09:15 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,118
Coronado, California, US


Carley Chamberlain wrote:
I think that in everyone's best scenario we's all get to do what we're best at.

In a paid scenario - wouldn't you want the BEST work you can get? Not "light hair"?

In a test/tfp scenario you'd want the same - the absolute best. Not mediocre - or what's the point?

If the MUA/H claims to be amazing at both - by all means book one person. But if you are getting people who are admittedly novice at one or the other it makes no sense to expect them to handle both.

Props to you who can do it all! I don't want to! LOL

I don't think anyone prefers to do both.  You carry twice the gear, work twice as hard, pay twice as much for supplies and it takes years of training to get good at both.   Trust me, I had to be taken into the hair world kicking and screaming but once I got good at it (Testing and model portfolio work are a great training ground)  I had more work than I could handle.  I wish I were in an area where I could get work doing just makeup but I'm in San Diego and that won't every happen here in my life time

Jul 29 13 07:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
MakeUp by Mau
Posts: 5
Boston, Massachusetts, US


When working in film/tv/video, MUAs are typically responsible for light hairstyling as they do not hire separate H/MU people.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/211599875658924/
Jul 29 13 08:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Leila Nadine
Posts: 36
Bristol, England, United Kingdom


I've found that the assumption is definitely there and in all honesty, if I don't offer light hair as well as makeup, more often than not there would be a model with all other aspects covered but her hair looking a big mess..shoot over! It's worth it unless you want to be dropped in favour of a mua who will offer hair as well as makeup.
Jul 30 13 05:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karasev Studio
Posts: 125
New York, New York, US


Tiffany_B wrote:
[...] As a photographer you're expected to take pictures, that's it. And while I realize that many photographers do much more e.g. location scouting and set building, on the day of the shoot your primary function, what you've been tapped to do, what you're in some cases being paid to do is take photos because you're the photographer.

I think this is valid for many large jobs. That said I keep $300 worth of makeup and related accessories and it has helped me plenty. It is fine to specialize for marketing purposes, but in terms of having the capability, in this day and age, it is much smarter to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it, I believe.

When the demand for your core talent exceeds your available time even as you charge above-industry rates, then perhaps would be the right time to drop any adjacent skills - and even that could be argued.

Jul 30 13 05:45 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Denise
Posts: 1,911
Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada


MakeUp by Mau wrote:
When working in film/tv/video, MUAs are typically responsible for light hairstyling as they do not hire separate H/MU people.

On small budget, independent film/TV/video sets - yes, quite possibly. On larger productions, rarely, except maybe an assistant swing position. On union productions - never!

Jul 30 13 10:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,212
Salem, Oregon, US


i prefer it when a MUA can do hair even if that's not her main focus. it would be overkill to bring in two people on the kinds of shoots we do although we did have a two-person team (awesome) once. and MUAs who can do pinup hair styles are especially useful.
Jul 30 13 10:51 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Jenn Holmes
Posts: 20
Los Angeles, California, US


I do both, but I try to downplay the hair side of things if I have a choice. Makeup is my passion, hair styling is just a skill I possess.
Aug 01 13 07:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
rick lesser
Posts: 686
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


I have the luxury of being able to do both.  And I market myself that way.  It definitely helps, gives me an edge. For me it's just business. I want that job just as much as you do.  I applaud you for standing your ground and saying "hey, I don't do hair"  If you don't have the hair tools in your kit, then you have nothing to worry about.  Because if you start, you will be expected to deliver no matter what they tell you.  R-
Aug 04 13 04:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Aziza Walker
Posts: 865
New York, New York, US


Mary wrote:
I don't think anyone prefers to do both.  You carry twice the gear, work twice as hard, pay twice as much for supplies and it takes years of training to get good at both.   Trust me, I had to be taken into the hair world kicking and screaming but once I got good at it (Testing and model portfolio work are a great training ground)  I had more work than I could handle.  I wish I were in an area where I could get work doing just makeup but I'm in San Diego and that won't every happen here in my life time

I'm kicking and screaming now but there's no way around it. I HAVE to learn hair if I want to be on a level playing field with other artists sad *sigh*

Aug 09 13 08:44 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
TheMakeupMan
Posts: 3,748
Los Angeles, California, US


Mary wrote:
After reading the replies here I think most of you are right.... but you're looking at very different areas of the makeup and hair world

Union Jobs

On union jobs you NEVER do makeup and hair but the majority of artists aren't in the union and do not work on union jobs.   Union jobs are generally film, TV and most jobs shooting over 2 weeks at a time....Union jobs don't normally pay as much as a good commercial job in the same area.... As an established artist in LA, NY or any other big city you normally charge much more than your union counterpart for a few reasons...

1)  Union artists work overtime and get benefits
2) Union jobs are steady, Films and TV shoot day after day, and there is some job security even if it's just a month.
3) Union jobs do not require you to do more than 1 thing and in fact do not allow it
4) Union makeup artists are the reasons we have the California entertainment industry exemption on licensing... Most have NO license to do makeup (currently there is no license for makeup specifically in the State of Ca)

Non union TV commercials, videos and print jobs (commercial jobs)

1)  Generally pay better unless you're a newbie but the lines are blurred... You generally are hired to do makeup and hair.

2) You generally work 1 or 2 days, maybe a week and move on (and you don't move on to unemployment, you move onto looking for more work)

3) You may get over time but forget lunch, that may not happen.  You pay for your own medical insurance or just live on prayers that you won't get sick.



Testing work, glamour, portrait and portfolio work....(The majority of what newer artists do and what some seasoned artists do when things are slow or they're in an area with little commercial work)

1) The pay is less, you're working with people that make less and can't pay you more.  There isn't a large money client behind the scenes on a job like this.

2)  You really have to do makeup and hair on these jobs because there is no budget for both

These beginner jobs are where you should be learning hair if you don't know it.

Bridal work (Weddings)

1) You can choose to do just makeup or just hair and not loose many jobs, Brides will gladly hire both.
2) If you know what you're doing and you are very good, your pay should be better then all of the above.  A sought after wedding artist can make $1000.00 in half day EASY and never touch hair. Assuming you're in a good area for brides with money.

Editorial
This is an area all its own because most people don't do this for a living...Pay sucks frankly.
Fashion editorials (Vogue as one example), Request normally separate makeup and hair because they pay very little and get great agency artists to work for next to nothing... Why not splurge?

Lifestyle editorials (People, Ladies home Journal, etc)... Almost always want makeup and hair as ONE person because the story isn't about makeup and hair, it's generally REAL people stories.

This is 99.9% true

just one little tweak I will add as a union makeup artist

Union Makeup is allowed to do male grooming and groom hair , i just had to on a feature im working on as hair was overflooded and needed extra hands and knew I also do hair ....I had asked the same question before doing any hair on a feature
and on commercials you are allowed to do both although they would rather you hire hair seperatly but its still a grey aera and I do Hair as well as Makeup on all my commercials UNLESS  its a beauty campain

BTW   MISS YOU MARY!!!!! we need to cacth up

Aug 09 13 04:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Heather J M
Posts: 711
London, England, United Kingdom


Late to the topic, but I notice a few fellow UK artists and photographers commenting and I think it is worth noting that here in the UK we have no Union rules like the US has, and outside of US funded films and high fashion, we are expected to do both. Most of us do. On film sets there may be a dedicated hair person to look after key talent, but all the makeup artists present will be more than capable of both hair and makeup. Not all of us are qualified hairdressers (although I felt it was important to be able to colour as well as cut, style, add hair etc so I qualified) but all are very capable of styling, period, cutting maintenance. On a film set you have to be.

Mary wrote:
I don't think anyone prefers to do both.  You carry twice the gear, work twice as hard, pay twice as much for supplies and it takes years of training to get good at both.

I prefer to do both wink I have been hired as to do just hair and just makeup on occasion and I actually prefer to have full artistic control over the whole look. Some people are excellent, but at times the look is not so coherent as it could be, often due to one person being reluctant to keep their end simple to allow the other to be the focus. Not always the case, but often enough that I do prefer to create the whole look, and I always think in terms of makeup and hair and how they will complement each other.

Aug 22 13 12:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


For a client-generated high-end budgeted shoot with full team then I'd expect to see separate MUA and hair stylists, along with a wardrobe assistant, photo assistants and someone working on the post-production.
However given that the vast majority of workflow through sites like MM caters to hobbyist models and photographers (even if pay is involved, such as is usually the case when models work nude), then it's not unreasonable to expect that a MUA could do 'something' with the hair, just as the model would be expected (certainly for TFP shoots) to do her own clothes-styling and the photographer would be expected to do his own retouching rather than farm it out to a professional retoucher...

I often pay for a MUA's services even on a TFP shoot as the end result justifies the expense, but costs still have to be kept to a minimum - unless it's for a shot that requires very elaborate hair-styling, if I can get a MUA that 'does' hair vs one that cannot, guess who gets the job?
Aug 22 13 01:08 am  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
rick lesser
Posts: 686
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


I just worked today on a shoot for Umberto of Beverly Hills.  It was a joint project for hair products makeup with Pixie cosmetics and designer Phillip Lim.  Three of us were hairdressers, and one was a makeup artist that did hair.  Let me tell you she was great.  She has worked full time for ten years as a free lance makeup artist that does light hair.  What I found was she held her own perfectly.  As I stated before, it's just business.  With that said the shoot landed me a free lance makeup gig with Pixie cosmetics this morning.  Last thing I expected to happen!  It all seems to balance itself out.  R-
Aug 22 13 04:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Kim Y
Posts: 235
Los Angeles, California, US


I am a makeup artist... that does light hair. ONLY because ppl will only book for 1 person for 1 rate.. do I want to do it? no. do I like to do it? no. But If I want the job, I better damn do it with a smile.

However, if I know I cant do something, I am hiring a hair assistant.. even if it means paying out of my own pocket.

dont know what the debate is about.

Union jobs are different though... I make sure that I tell my production to list me as only doing makeup even if I do hair.. I am NOT getting my hours cut for something so silly.

the end. smile
Aug 22 13 10:37 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,118
Coronado, California, US


TheMakeupMan wrote:

This is 99.9% true

just one little tweak I will add as a union makeup artist

Union Makeup is allowed to do male grooming and groom hair , i just had to on a feature im working on as hair was overflooded and needed extra hands and knew I also do hair ....I had asked the same question before doing any hair on a feature
and on commercials you are allowed to do both although they would rather you hire hair seperatly but its still a grey aera and I do Hair as well as Makeup on all my commercials UNLESS  its a beauty campain

BTW   MISS YOU MARY!!!!! we need to cacth up

I stand corrected...I've never been union and just go by what I hear, not at all my area of expertise ....  And I miss you TOO!

Aug 23 13 12:12 am  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
Jenny Bell
Posts: 9
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I am a hairstylist with 12 years salon experience and 7 years photo shoot styling experience.
I am offering customized hairstyling courses for anyone who would like to brush up on their skills! Usually I have been doing these classes for makeup artists who want to strengthen their updo skills.
I can also help you with picking the right tools and products for hairstyling.
You tell me what you want to work on (your strengths and weaknesses) and I will customize a curriculum just for you!
Prices vary depending on how many classes and where I need to travel to(I will come to you). I will estimate approx $50/hr though for one or two classes. Price per hour will go down if you require more than two classes.
Also, I am always available to my students for questions and suggestions on products or techniques.
I can provide references also!
Aug 26 13 12:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Sarah London Makeup
Posts: 2
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


In Canada they expect you to do both hair and makeup on all indie shoots and fashion shoots.  Only exception is in the film unions.  It's one of the only places in the world where the industry standard is a two-in-one package.  The result: FLARE or ELLE Canada will have a model with crusty hot iron curls that have terrible fish hooks in them, but the makeup is passable.  That's an example of a makeup artist being forced by the industry to do hair - and the result is lower quality because of it.
Jul 23 14 11:34 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
DanielaHickson
Posts: 15
Ratisbon, Bavaria, Germany


Here in Europe "Time is Money" and that goes for the people they hire too. If you want to work for big companies you have know Hair if you are a MUA. That is why I have troubles finding great jobs because they always require knowledge of hairstyling. My forte as well is Make Up and usually for TFP I will do light hairdos but for weddings I always recommend a hairdresser. I really wish they would accept that here as well, someone responsible just for hair and one just for make up.
Jul 25 14 01:30 pm  Link  Quote 
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