Forums > Model Colloquy > What does it mean to be a muse....

Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 22232

Stamford, Connecticut, US

GoldRoseMedia wrote:
Like everything else, there is a real world definition, and an MM definition.

Real world definition -- Muse: A like-minded artist who inspires your creativity.

MM definition -- Muse: A model who will shoot TFP with you over and over without ever asking to be paid.

In the real world, and in the history of art, I don't think your "real world definition" holds up.  In some cases the muse may be another artist (Jackson Pollock and Lee Krasner come to mind) but that is by no means the most common variant. 

To count on MM to define anything is folly at best, however to me this sentiment is by far the prevalent MM view on it:

Isis22 wrote:
I was once told I was a muse but I didn't believe them. I was merely a "crush".

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Yes I think there is a vast difference between the two. I think crush connotes something like a sexual attraction. For me the muse is not sexual. The muse inspires and is connected to my work in general and the work we create together.

Which flies in the face of almost all known historical examples of the relationship, as well as virtually every one I have ever known, either personally (as in a muse relationship I was party to) or as a close observer to other artists.

If your muse is a woman, and you have no desire for her whatsoever, nor her you, I suggest taking up landscape photography...

Aug 06 13 01:03 pm Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

I respectfully disagree. Sex does not have to enter the equation at all.

Not everything is about sex... Don't confuse agape with Eros. You can be connected in so many deep and abiding ways.  I am friends with many of my models and I cherish what we share together, but I would never want to have sex with them.  (Huge sigh of relief from my models:).  )

Aug 06 13 02:34 pm Link

Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 22232

Stamford, Connecticut, US

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Sex does not have to enter the equation at all.

Not everything is about sex... Don't confuse agape with Eros. You can be connected in so many deep and abiding ways.  I am friends with many of my models and I cherish what we share together, but I would never want to have sex with them.  (Huge sigh of relief from my models:).  )

I'm friends with many models as well. Some of those are pretty deep friendships spanning years - but they aren't muses to me...  Of those I dated (and am still friends with) a couple kind of were, one in particular, but the rest no. To me a muse is something fairly specific and, as I've tried to point out, historically common.  Others are free to use the term as they like of course, but this MM notion of chastity in mind, body and spirit is ludicrous.

Aug 06 13 02:41 pm Link

Photographer

Modelphilia

Posts: 1002

Hilo, Hawaii, US

Frank McDonough wrote:
I know once the restraining order expires I'll work with my Muse again.

LOL, . . . And was that one taken out against you or the model?

Aug 06 13 04:00 pm Link

Model

Jen B

Posts: 4474

Phoenix, Arizona, US

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

WOW I think this explains it so well....

So if that is true, which I think it is why wouldn't every photographer want to have a muse. Why wouldn't every model want to be someone's muse.


As an art photographer that type of intimacy and connection helps lift the work of both participants

Personally I'd love to be one...however...

Creativity is very personal, drive to create is personal, the occasional angst of being a frustrated artist or not expressing that is personal. Even among friends of mine I know I pushed one, inadvertently a little too hard just because of my own desire to create.

Luckily she and I are better friends for it and we mutually understood what was going on. I also realize, now, that the only person who I can push with my drive to create is myself and that everyone else involved deserves patience, compassion and tolerance.

Jen

Aug 06 13 06:55 pm Link

Photographer

Carle Photography

Posts: 9271

Oakland, California, US

I just want to have sex with my cameras....all of them.. at once...with some fixer for lube...

Aug 06 13 07:26 pm Link

Photographer

Frank Lewis Photography

Posts: 14487

Winter Park, Florida, US

I've been in such a creative drought for more than a year.

I sure could use a collaboration with someone who could be my muse...

Aug 06 13 07:30 pm Link

Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 22232

Stamford, Connecticut, US

Bay Area Boudoir wrote:
I just want to have sex with my cameras....all of them.. at once...with some fixer for lube...

While wearing the cape? 

If I'm going to imagine it, I want to get it right....

Aug 06 13 07:38 pm Link

Photographer

Carle Photography

Posts: 9271

Oakland, California, US

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Sex does not have to enter the equation at all.

Not everything is about sex... Don't confuse agape with Eros. You can be connected in so many deep and abiding ways.  I am friends with many of my models and I cherish what we share together, but I would never want to have sex with them.  (Huge sigh of relief from my models:).  )

Agape is the love of God.
No one here mentioned God.


Sorry but if you have met and worked with only 100 men/women and have had not a single sexual inclination with any of them at all at any one time, Unless you state that you must be truly asexual. No one will believe you. We are humans, We have human emotions and lust is one of them.

In fact lust is the only reason us silly humans are still alive on this planet, we keep breeding.

It is fantastic that you keep your lust in check and do not act on it, but to try and tell another group of humans that you have never experienced any lust at all with any of your models at any time...

Rare, very rare...

Aug 06 13 07:38 pm Link

Photographer

Carle Photography

Posts: 9271

Oakland, California, US

Bay Area Boudoir wrote:
I just want to have sex with my cameras....all of them.. at once...with some fixer for lube...

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
While wearing the cape? 

If I'm going to imagine it, I want to get it right....

I don't want to get fixer on my cape, it will stain and smell funky..
I'll wear my black high heals though...

Aug 06 13 07:39 pm Link

Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 22232

Stamford, Connecticut, US

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
WOW I think this explains it so well....

So if that is true, which I think it is why wouldn't every photographer want to have a muse. Why wouldn't every model want to be someone's muse.


As an art photographer that type of intimacy and connection helps lift the work of both participants

MyrnaByrna Jen B wrote:
Personally I'd love to be one...however...

Creativity is very personal, drive to create is personal, the occasional angst of being a frustrated artist or not expressing that is personal. Even among friends of mine I know I pushed one, inadvertently a little too hard just because of my own desire to create.

Luckily she and I are better friends for it and we mutually understood what was going on. I also realize, now, that the only person who I can push with my drive to create is myself and that everyone else involved deserves patience, compassion and tolerance.

Jen

Everyone, it seems, has their own views/definitions...  But again, in the classical sense at least, if you were serving as a muse, you should indeed push that hard when you need to.  And yes, it will result in friction, and fights, and making up and understanding.  It is, after all, a relationship. 

Whether that relationship exists between very close friends, whether it exists between lovers, it doesn't matter - it's a deeply personal relationship.  And like any other relationship, it's not always going to be smooth sailing.  If it is, what's the point?  We don't grow from good times and easy living.  We grow through the pain that comes from pushing ourselves and from trying to find a deeper understanding of the world around us and our place in it.  The more we push ourselves the harder this process is, and the more difficult it is to go it alone.

The person who says, "yeah, I know this model, I love shooting her, she's like way awesome and super comfortable to be around and we shoot together all the time - she's my muse" has completely missed the plot.  Which isn't to say that what they're doing is wrong, not at all, but it's a different process. 

If that person doesn't know your innermost fears and you theirs, if they haven't seen you at your creative worst as well as your best...  If they don't kick you in the ass when you need it, and offer a shoulder to cry on or a place to rest your head when you need that, then they're not your "muse".  They're just a nice person that you enjoy photographing.

Aug 06 13 07:45 pm Link

Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 22232

Stamford, Connecticut, US

Bay Area Boudoir wrote:
I just want to have sex with my cameras....all of them.. at once...with some fixer for lube...

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
While wearing the cape? 

If I'm going to imagine it, I want to get it right....

Bay Area Boudoir wrote:
I don't want to get fixer on my cape, it will stain and smell funky..
I'll wear my black high heals though...

Got it. 

I'll be right back...

EDIT: On a side note, the construction aspect of the new darkroom will be done tomorrow, painting to follow and then construction of the sink and cabinetry.  So plan a trip out here in say four to six weeks and it's yours for as long as you need it.

Aug 06 13 07:46 pm Link

Photographer

Carle Photography

Posts: 9271

Oakland, California, US

I'll see what I can do.
smile

Aug 06 13 07:58 pm Link

Photographer

R.EYE.R

Posts: 3436

Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan

Data insert error

Aug 06 13 08:04 pm Link

Photographer

LdG

Posts: 155

Seattle, Washington, US

"An artistic soul-mate.  That IS the Holy Grail.  I believe they're made of smoke."

I read that somewhere.  I believe it.

Aug 06 13 08:56 pm Link

Photographer

Lovely Day Media

Posts: 5885

Vineland, New Jersey, US

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Photographers:

What do you look for in a muse and why is he or she your muse.  What sets them apart from all the rest.

For me, a muse is someone who enjoys my presence and vice versa. We share a creative vision in that they do the things I want them to do without my having to say it. They ask me to do things I was about to do, anyway. I won't call it mind reading, but I will call it being of one mind.

The conversation flows easily. Not all topics get discussed but there are no taboo topics, either. This person is able to express themselves freely because they know I care about them on many levels (who they are as a model affects who they are as a person and vice versa).

  An hour with this person goes by like 5 minutes and it feels like we've known each other for at least 20 years. No matter what the pictures look like, we'd like to shoot again because the company was great and terrible pictures can be made up for next time.

  What sets them apart is that each time we shoot, the pictures are better than the last time, we learn more about each other and we have more fun, too.

Ultimately what makes them a muse is that we are able to shoot multiple times together with no need for a discussion of bodyguards/escorts. They trust me in that they know I'm not going to touch them in any way that isn't necessary. Their relaxation shows in the pictures and the mood changes from working together to actually being friends. I've never stopped working with a model when we've become friends and no shoot will ever turned sexual, but there are some where I'd say a day could come when we could have lunch together.

In one case, a model told me that our shoot felt more like a date and she liked that. She liked that I wasn't hitting on her but was interested in what she had to say. I ended up shooting with her 3 times. It was awesome for me and I learned a lot of things from her.

  In another case, we made arrangements to shoot again but she got sick and had to cancel. Thinking worst case scenario, I let things ride a bit too long. When I contacted her again, she said she moved a few states away but would let me know when she was back in town. When she got back, my car was dead so I couldn't get down there to see/shoot her again. We only shot together once, but she was one who definitely inspired greatness in me (at least to new heights).

  I have met many models who were really nice. Only these two were "muse quality" for me. I have met a couple of models recently that I'd like to shoot again some day, but for me, to be a muse is either there or it isn't. I know before the end of the first shoot.

  ETA: After reading some other responses, I have things to add to my definition. One other thing that makes a person a muse is that they have to be sexually attractive. It's not something that can be seen with my eye or measured with a ruler. It's just something about them that makes me fall "in love" with them though sex is not an option.

  Sex is not an option because it wouldn't be professionally ethical (IMO) and might ruin the relationship (I'm not one who believes people can be friends and lovers, too. If they are, then they are or should be married (again, IMO).  In the case of these models, they are/were both around half my age or less so the chances of a marriage working out would be slim. It's a good thing it's not what I wanted from them.

  I have met models who were very nice and some were awesome models. They just didn't have "it" ... whatever "it" is.  I think "it" is a certain chemistry that allowed them to find a place in my heart where few people get to go so soon (or even ever). We bonded almost immediately, solidly and lingering. They may not feel the same but it doesn't change anything for me.

Aug 07 13 03:25 am Link

Photographer

afplcc

Posts: 6020

Fairfax, Virginia, US

My take on this (as well as the classical interpretation of a muse) is that it's not someone you like working with, or is fun to be with, or you do really good work with.  A muse is often a major pain in the ass to work with.  A muse may be impetuous or unprofessional.  A muse doesn't result in you doing better work.  A muse shocks your or jerks you out of what you were doing.  You may end up questioning totally what you were doing or going in a different direction.

I once had a muse.  I didn't pick her.  She didn't pick the muse role.  She really changed the work I did with models.  She also showed up for one shoot a couple of hours late.  Another (a road shoot that I'd bought a ticket for her and then driven a couple of hours--we were going to meet at a location in the middle) she failed to show...she'd overslept and missed the train.  When I asked her response was "I guess we weren't meant to shoot."  Another time she refused to try a particular series of poses that we'd talked about preshoot b/c "I've done that before and it would be boring--there's nothing new there."

Maybe a muse involves sex, maybe it doesn't.  But the thing about a muse is that there's a relationship there of sorts, other than the professional "me photographer, you model" thing.  Because a muse touches you and stimulates you (no pun intended) in ways you don't expect.  And so you grow as an artist. 

But often times growth is painful.  It may be in ways you didn't intend.  The muse I had me questioning what I did, how I shot, how I approached my art.  I tolerated stuff with her I never tolerated from other models.  I got frustrated with her, numerous times I resolved never to shoot with her again, at times I felt like she had no regard for what we were trying to create or that she was unprofessional. So don't confuse a "favorite model" or a "house model" or someone who you do good work with for a muse.  If you have the opportunity to encounter a muse, that's an opportunity to grow as a photographer and artist.  But don't confuse that with having a fun time or be a pleasant experience.  Don't confuse a house model with a muse.  And just b/c you create really good work with someone doesn't make them a muse--a really good model should help you get really good results.   But a muse may help you grow by being insulting.  Or by showing no regard for your work.  Or placing demands on you that you've had before.   Or being difficult to work with.  Not b/c those are what we should expect of a model.  But b/c what a muse does is to shock you and move you out of where you are and into a significantly different a new place.  And that doesn't come by being talented and easy to work with.  It comes from having a connection of sorts so that you feel compelled to take the journey you have to with her even though it's one you wouldn't take with other models in the past.

Ed

Aug 07 13 04:14 am Link

Photographer

PDF IMAGES PHOTOGRAPHY

Posts: 4606

Jacksonville, Florida, US

Sill looking for my MUSE tongue, although many are candidates !

Aug 07 13 04:24 am Link

Photographer

Jamtron Studio

Posts: 1066

Venice, Florida, US

Luckily when I started out, I did have a muse. They were convenient, readily available, loved the camera, and the camera loved them back. I was able to try out any silly idea I had, and have notebooks full of negs. From that relationship. Recently, a model I had worked with a few times, because they were also convenient and willing, referred to themselves as my muse. I was shocked, as the shoots were hard work, and even though we got some good shots, they weren't "inspired". I never worked with the model again, I wa so taken aback by their comment.

Aug 07 13 05:00 am Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:

I'm friends with many models as well. Some of those are pretty deep friendships spanning years - but they aren't muses to me...  Of those I dated (and am still friends with) a couple kind of were, one in particular, but the rest no. To me a muse is something fairly specific and, as I've tried to point out, historically common.  Others are free to use the term as they like of course, but this MM notion of chastity in mind, body and spirit is ludicrous.

Please tell that to Dante and Beatrice

Aug 07 13 05:29 am Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Bay Area Boudoir wrote:
Agape is the love of God.
No one here mentioned God.


Sorry but if you have met and worked with only 100 men/women and have had not a single sexual inclination with any of them at all at any one time, Unless you state that you must be truly asexual. No one will believe you. We are humans, We have human emotions and lust is one of them.

In fact lust is the only reason us silly humans are still alive on this planet, we keep breeding.

It is fantastic that you keep your lust in check and do not act on it, but to try and tell another group of humans that you have never experienced any lust at all with any of your models at any time...

Rare, very rare...

Please when I was young I thought like a boy and lust was rampant. As one who is now older I am we'll beyond lust. I have a vast appreciation for beauty and for the female form. I lust now for the image. And I strive to create something beautiful and I hope lasting in my art. While this is not a critique thread I just want to state that I do my best to create beauty. I will leave it for others to judge.

To be in lust with your model and to reduce every male /female interaction as sexual in nature may be selling both the model and the artist short.


I love how others want to attack others for what they feel. I am so glad your can put yourself in my shoes, in my heart over this matter.

Please, up to this point the thread has been interesting and informative.

Thank you for your perspective though

Aug 07 13 05:42 am Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

afplcc wrote:
My take on this (as well as the classical interpretation of a muse) is that it's not someone you like working with, or is fun to be with, or you do really good work with.  A muse is often a major pain in the ass to work with.  A muse may be impetuous or unprofessional.  A muse doesn't result in you doing better work.  A muse shocks your or jerks you out of what you were doing.  You may end up questioning totally what you were doing or going in a different direction.

I once had a muse.  I didn't pick her.  She didn't pick the muse role.  She really changed the work I did with models.  She also showed up for one shoot a couple of hours late.  Another (a road shoot that I'd bought a ticket for her and then driven a couple of hours--we were going to meet at a location in the middle) she failed to show...she'd overslept and missed the train.  When I asked her response was "I guess we weren't meant to shoot."  Another time she refused to try a particular series of poses that we'd talked about preshoot b/c "I've done that before and it would be boring--there's nothing new there."

Maybe a muse involves sex, maybe it doesn't.  But the thing about a muse is that there's a relationship there of sorts, other than the professional "me photographer, you model" thing.  Because a muse touches you and stimulates you (no pun intended) in ways you don't expect.  And so you grow as an artist. 

But often times growth is painful.  It may be in ways you didn't intend.  The muse I had me questioning what I did, how I shot, how I approached my art.  I tolerated stuff with her I never tolerated from other models.  I got frustrated with her, numerous times I resolved never to shoot with her again, at times I felt like she had no regard for what we were trying to create or that she was unprofessional. So don't confuse a "favorite model" or a "house model" or someone who you do good work with for a muse.  If you have the opportunity to encounter a muse, that's an opportunity to grow as a photographer and artist.  But don't confuse that with having a fun time or be a pleasant experience.  Don't confuse a house model with a muse.  And just b/c you create really good work with someone doesn't make them a muse--a really good model should help you get really good results.   But a muse may help you grow by being insulting.  Or by showing no regard for your work.  Or placing demands on you that you've had before.   Or being difficult to work with.  Not b/c those are what we should expect of a model.  But b/c what a muse does is to shock you and move you out of where you are and into a significantly different a new place.  And that doesn't come by being talented and easy to work with.  It comes from having a connection of sorts so that you feel compelled to take the journey you have to with her even though it's one you wouldn't take with other models in the past.

Ed

Ed, this is very well said. And I agree she was all of that to me. Her effect lifted my work with the other models I shot. I will always be grateful for that.

Aug 07 13 05:45 am Link

Model

Romanie smith

Posts: 343

London, England, United Kingdom

I have been bless enough to be called a 'muse' by a couple of photographers! Long may it continue smile xx

Aug 07 13 05:45 am Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
WOW I think this explains it so well....

So if that is true, which I think it is why wouldn't every photographer want to have a muse. Why wouldn't every model want to be someone's muse.


As an art photographer that type of intimacy and connection helps lift the work of both participants

Everyone, it seems, has their own views/definitions...  But again, in the classical sense at least, if you were serving as a muse, you should indeed push that hard when you need to.  And yes, it will result in friction, and fights, and making up and understanding.  It is, after all, a relationship. 

Whether that relationship exists between very close friends, whether it exists between lovers, it doesn't matter - it's a deeply personal relationship.  And like any other relationship, it's not always going to be smooth sailing.  If it is, what's the point?  We don't grow from good times and easy living.  We grow through the pain that comes from pushing ourselves and from trying to find a deeper understanding of the world around us and our place in it.  The more we push ourselves the harder this process is, and the more difficult it is to go it alone.

The person who says, "yeah, I know this model, I love shooting her, she's like way awesome and super comfortable to be around and we shoot together all the time - she's my muse" has completely missed the plot.  Which isn't to say that what they're doing is wrong, not at all, but it's a different process. 

If that person doesn't know your innermost fears and you theirs, if they haven't seen you at your creative worst as well as your best...  If they don't kick you in the ass when you need it, and offer a shoulder to cry on or a place to rest your head when you need that, then they're not your "muse".  They're just a nice person that you enjoy photographing.

Yes you do make some wonderful points here. Especially about the kick in the ass and a shoulder to cry on

Aug 07 13 05:49 am Link

Photographer

ImagineAerie

Posts: 404

Plano, Texas, US

I've come very close to finding a true muse a couple of times.  One got pulled away by her hubby after a few sessions.  He couldn't understand the concept of "unrequited".  Another went through so many husbands I lost count of the forwarding addresses.  It got to be just too difficult to work in a new husband each time, proving to him that his bride and I didn't have a "thing" going on.  I just wanted her for her body!

Since no one has mentioned it, I'll toss in my favorite example -- Andrew Wyeth and Helga.  That's my ideal muse, if there is such a thing.

Aug 07 13 11:39 pm Link

Photographer

REED Photography

Posts: 32

Los Angeles, California, US

https://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/130807/16/5202dd7772567_m.jpg

This is my muse.

What makes her my muse?

1.)We have a similar sense of humor and we both meow in response at each other sometimes. :-P

2.)We are able to bounce ideas off of each other.

3.)We look out for each other... be it for photography stuff.. or modeling stuff (we both do both)

She's always up for doing things smile

..... but what I really think it boils down to? A Muse is a Friend.

Aug 07 13 11:40 pm Link

Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 22232

Stamford, Connecticut, US

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
I'm friends with many models as well. Some of those are pretty deep friendships spanning years - but they aren't muses to me...  Of those I dated (and am still friends with) a couple kind of were, one in particular, but the rest no. To me a muse is something fairly specific and, as I've tried to point out, historically common.  Others are free to use the term as they like of course, but this MM notion of chastity in mind, body and spirit is ludicrous.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Please tell that to Dante and Beatrice

LOL, well, you found an exception, kind of...

She was certainly an inspiration to him, that much is clear.  However, other than gazing upon her a few times, it doesn't even seem that he even really knew her.  Saw her when he was 9, but never spoke to her until she turned 18 and she said hi to him (and it isn't even clear if he ever responded, as far as I know).  The never spent any real amount of time together, we other people and she died young shortly after her marriage. 

Really, Dante was in love with an idea more than a person.  If that's enough for you, that's great.

Aug 08 13 11:04 am Link

Model

Jen B

Posts: 4474

Phoenix, Arizona, US

Jeanloup De Loupe wrote:
Interesting, do models ever consider photographers to be their muse?

Hi,
Somewhat.

Personally I think it is more like a mentor/mentee relationship.

Without the photographer the model muse is also stifled creatively, (and unfulfilled.) Not just any photographer can fill the role it is a special relationship. I think that even designers can have a muse but, the photographer/artist/muse role is different because of mutual expression and creativity.
Jen

Farenell Photography wrote:
I actually found one of mine by posting a flier, simply as a lark, at the local college "seeking a muse". She answered the ad, also as a lark, only to turn out she was the real-deal.

She pushed me creatively, suggesting some crazy-ass ideas. I pushed her creatively, suggesting some crazy-ass ideas. At one point we shot so regularly, we sorta could know what the other was thinking & thus anticipate each others actions. ...

That kind of creatively relationship can be a double-edged sword though. Definitely NOT for the faint of heart!

+

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
...
A muse isn't someone you simply enjoy working with (in any medium) nor is it simply someone who inspires you.  It isn't a collaborator, at least not in the traditional sense.  The relationship between artist and muse is always an intensely intimate one.  As you said, that doesn't mean it's a sexual relationship, although more often than not it is, but it is certainly intimate.

I had a conversation about this a ways back with Kincaid Blackwood, who also made some fabulous points.  Basically, most photographers here seem to have a differing idea of what 'Muse' is, at least from the traditional perspective.   

...  I'd argue that a muse is none of those and is often the opposite of them. 

Muses work in unpredictable ways.  A muse is not always professional.  She can, and will, push your buttons.  She will often frustrate the hell out of you.

...

Muses work in part b/c they aren't planned, b/c they aren't logical, b/c they force us to go where we didn't plan on going or are leery of venturing artistically.  They challenge us--they aren't about making it easy or fun or doing more of the same. A muse will get you angry and frustrated and force you to think "what's my role in this?  what's my responsibility?" Muses often work by indirectly or covertly jacking your emotions and perceptions.  A muse isn't your manager--but she may act in ways that force you to raise your level of work by managing yourself better.


Art isn't easy or always fun--otherwise everyone would do it and be great at it.  Art is often a struggle, it often produces self-doubt or self-loathing and usually involves a great deal of risk-taking and discomfort.  It is often the most intensely tortuous experience imaginable and yet the release, when it works, is euphoria. To have a person in your life that can inspire you, stay by your side and help you through this emotional turmoil, keep you from giving up when you want to, and then celebrate your triumphs with you or console you when you fall short...  What could possibly be more intimate than that?  Sex?  Sex is nothing compared to that...

Which is why relationships between artist and muse often form.  That much passion and intimacy and true caring has a natural trajectory.  ..
The relationship is quite rare.  But when it burns, it burns very, very hot.

All well stated.
This validates a lot of what I'd felt about it, that there is struggle to create and intensity and I think I have been in this role of pushing and struggle and frustration with a photographer, (in a mutually respectful and good way but I know there was intensity and I felt it on my end too but, didn't care to stop the issue but was trying to encourage something to happen.) There are a couple of photographers I consider friends and while we have a mutually respectful and caring friendship there were times when we shot that we pushed each other. Well written. A muse/artist relationship is special, (passion of creativity.)

Aug 09 13 05:42 am Link

Photographer

ImagineAerie

Posts: 404

Plano, Texas, US

90038 Photography wrote:
..... but what I really think it boils down to? A Muse is a Friend.

This!^

Aug 09 13 09:43 pm Link

Model

Jen B

Posts: 4474

Phoenix, Arizona, US

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
WOW I think this explains it so well....

So if that is true, which I think it is why wouldn't every photographer want to have a muse. Why wouldn't every model want to be someone's muse.


As an art photographer that type of intimacy and connection helps lift the work of both participants

Everyone, it seems, has their own views/definitions...  But again, in the classical sense at least, if you were serving as a muse, you should indeed push that hard when you need to.  And yes, it will result in friction, and fights, and making up and understanding.  It is, after all, a relationship. 

Whether that relationship exists between very close friends, whether it exists between lovers, it doesn't matter - it's a deeply personal relationship.  And like any other relationship, it's not always going to be smooth sailing.  If it is, what's the point?  We don't grow from good times and easy living.  We grow through the pain that comes from pushing ourselves and from trying to find a deeper understanding of the world around us and our place in it.  The more we push ourselves the harder this process is, and the more difficult it is to go it alone.

The person who says, "yeah, I know this model, I love shooting her, she's like way awesome and super comfortable to be around and we shoot together all the time - she's my muse" has completely missed the plot.  Which isn't to say that what they're doing is wrong, not at all, but it's a different process. 

If that person doesn't know your innermost fears and you theirs, if they haven't seen you at your creative worst as well as your best...  If they don't kick you in the ass when you need it, and offer a shoulder to cry on or a place to rest your head when you need that, then they're not your "muse".  They're just a nice person that you enjoy photographing.

Giacomo,
Thank you, I feel like there are several posters in this thread who get it and you clearly "got" it! It is a near volatile relationship because of passion to create yet, not an expolosive one necessarily even though there may be occasional flare ups! wink
Jen
p.s. and yes, respectful admiration is still there even with clashing drives pushing each other and encouraging each other too

Aug 10 13 06:18 am Link

Photographer

Robb Mann

Posts: 12327

Baltimore, Maryland, US

A muse is a model whos willing to get waist-deep in mud for a photo, while inspiring the photographer to get waist-deep in mud to take it.

Aug 10 13 03:42 pm Link

Model

Phane

Posts: 2063

Rockville, Maryland, US

MyrnaByrna Jen B wrote:

Personally I'd love to be one...however...

Creativity is very personal, drive to create is personal, the occasional angst of being a frustrated artist or not expressing that is personal. Even among friends of mine I know I pushed one, inadvertently a little too hard just because of my own desire to create.

Luckily she and I are better friends for it and we mutually understood what was going on. I also realize, now, that the only person who I can push with my drive to create is myself and that everyone else involved deserves patience, compassion and tolerance.

Jen

+1 would love to be someones muse wink

Aug 10 13 03:47 pm Link

Model

K I C K H A M

Posts: 14689

Los Angeles, California, US

90038 Photography wrote:
https://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/130807/16/5202dd7772567_m.jpg

This is my muse.

What makes her my muse?

1.)We have a similar sense of humor and we both meow in response at each other sometimes. :-P

2.)We are able to bounce ideas off of each other.

3.)We look out for each other... be it for photography stuff.. or modeling stuff (we both do both)

She's always up for doing things smile

..... but what I really think it boils down to? A Muse is a Friend.

Meow!

Aug 10 13 03:49 pm Link

Photographer

Model Mentor Studio

Posts: 1359

Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada

MyrnaByrna Jen B wrote:

Personally I'd love to be one...however...

Creativity is very personal, drive to create is personal, the occasional angst of being a frustrated artist or not expressing that is personal. Even among friends of mine I know I pushed one, inadvertently a little too hard just because of my own desire to create.

Luckily she and I are better friends for it and we mutually understood what was going on. I also realize, now, that the only person who I can push with my drive to create is myself and that everyone else involved deserves patience, compassion and tolerance.

Jen

My invitation stands.

Unfortunately, the models in my area are far more interested in the pub scene to take much of anything like this seriously.
I had a muse, her bf got jealous, I lost muse.

Aug 10 13 04:14 pm Link

Photographer

FBY1K

Posts: 956

North Las Vegas, Nevada, US

If it happens it happens, but I'm not looking and would rather not have one.

FBY1K

Aug 11 13 09:23 am Link

Model

Jen B

Posts: 4474

Phoenix, Arizona, US

afplcc wrote:
My take on this (as well as the classical interpretation of a muse) is that it's not someone you like working with, or is fun to be with, or you do really good work with.  A muse is often a major pain in the ass to work with.  A muse may be impetuous or unprofessional.  A muse doesn't result in you doing better work.  A muse shocks your or jerks you out of what you were doing.  You may end up questioning totally what you were doing or going in a different direction.

...
Ed

Yes to this as well. I had the feeling with two lovely photographers that I know and consider friends as we,(individually) shot our second shoots together that there was a defining moment I'd pushed or frustrated them.

Once I realize that, I backed off because of my hard lesson learned from my first friend photographer and then gradually pushed forward.

I've learned that pushing someone beyond the pace they can handle can derail them completely, (or at least derail the relationship.)
Jen
p.s. edit to add that I remember during the shoot with the second photographer, after we had a 'mini' collision moments into our second shoot I eased off and later, when he was looking at his camera between shots I moved into a pose, waited for him, (probably only a second) and just shouted, "Hey! The shot is right here!! Look up." wink He did, sort of started, smiled and shot and then I went back to waiting.

Aug 11 13 12:12 pm Link

Model

Jen B

Posts: 4474

Phoenix, Arizona, US

Rick OBanion Photo wrote:
My invitation stands.

Unfortunately, the models in my area are far more interested in the pub scene to take much of anything like this seriously.
I had a muse, her bf got jealous, I lost muse.

smile! I look forward to traveling to you!

Robb Mann wrote:
A muse is a model whos willing to get waist-deep in mud for a photo, while inspiring the photographer to get waist-deep in mud to take it.

Yes, the key factor is that there has to be a photographer that is likewise willing to go there with her/him. Otherwise, we are just a crazy person in the mud alone, misunderstood.

Aug 11 13 12:19 pm Link

Retoucher

Zoltan Retoucher

Posts: 130

Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland

GoldRoseMedia wrote:
Like everything else, there is a real world definition, and an MM definition.

Real world definition -- Muse: A like-minded artist who inspires your creativity.

MM definition -- Muse: A model who will shoot TFP with you over and over without ever asking to be paid.

Ha ha ha ha that was funny .

Aug 11 13 06:24 pm Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

MyrnaByrna Jen B wrote:

Giacomo,
Thank you, I feel like there are several posters in this thread who get it and you clearly "got" it! It is a near volatile relationship because of passion to create yet, not an expolosive one necessarily even though there may be occasional flare ups! wink
Jen
p.s. and yes, respectful admiration is still there even with clashing drives pushing each other and encouraging each other too

Yes since I was the one who posed the question I want to thank all who shared with me their feelings around their muse.

Aug 11 13 07:25 pm Link

Photographer

CFVickFotografia

Posts: 17

Chesapeake, Virginia, US

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
After 3 years I have lost my wonderful muse.  She had to quit modeling because her family were threatening to financially cut her off if she continued to model. 

She was absolutely a pleasure to work with.  She loved our work together and she supported me emotionally in good times and bad.  Now I  feel like I lost my rudder.

I know it may sound silly but losing a muse hurts.


So this got me to thinking.

Photographers:

What do you look for in a muse and why is he or she your muse.  What sets them apart from all the rest.


Models

What does it mean to you to be a photographers muse....  What attributes do you feel a muse must possess.


So all your thoughts and ideas are gratefully accepted


Risen Phoenix

I feel your pain.  I have had my muse for over 4 years know it is perfectly natural to develop a close personal bond with them even beyond work.  For me I just can not just look for a muse.  I have only had two in my life time.  First of two years who after getting married to a Pastor simply could not continue to model and explore the areas of artistic interest we both enjoyed.  However we are still friends to this day. First and foremost a muse must inspire you to shoot even when U think you have no interest in shooting.  Secondly a muse passion should at least meet yours if not exceed yours.  Pushing you to artistic levels that typically u knew not possible. 

As far as what sets my muse apart form all the rest...that a tough one...for use is like an artistic MARRIAGE in which our passions merge into ONE.  For someone else she may be a horrible but for me she is PERFECT in EVERY WAY...I even enjoy what some would deem imperfections.    I invite all to visit my muse page and maybe you can see why I call her my KATE MOSE only BETTER ;-)

https://www.modelmayhem.com/1842974

Oct 29 13 02:08 am Link