Forums > General Industry > Losing $$$ is not worth your integrity

Photographer

udor

Posts: 25255

New York, New York, US

DougBPhoto wrote:
She has every right to sue, it isn't ego, it sounds like she'd genuinely been damaged.

Doug, this uniquely American culture of suing anybody for everything is, from a non-American perspective... extremely counterproductive in order to make a quick buck.

There are models and movie stars that had gotten insurance for their specific assets, e.g. legs, other limbs from Lloyds of London...

In the OP's case... I don't think that her Farrah Fawcett hair is her only asset... I looked at her port... and she has stunning facial features, a fantastic body, knows how to pose... she is overall an extremely good looking model, that doesn't rely just on her hair...

Although I understand that she loves her hair... but in a few weeks and months, it will have grown back... which would be faster than a law suit will even come to trial... so, she would have to take photos NOW... and then she would have to demonstrate how much monetary loss she suffered because of the new hair cut.

Aug 31 13 03:36 pm Link

Photographer

DougBPhoto

Posts: 39248

Portland, Oregon, US

Bearz Images wrote:
Don't mistake advice for blame.

Advice = what to do in the future

Blame = what you (she) should have done

She should have left when the scissors came out =/= advice

She should have left when the scissors came out = blame

Aug 31 13 03:56 pm Link

Photographer

DougBPhoto

Posts: 39248

Portland, Oregon, US

udor wrote:
Doug, this uniquely American culture of suing anybody for everything is, from a non-American perspective... extremely counterproductive in order to make a quick buck.

There are models and movie stars that had gotten insurance for their specific assets, e.g. legs, other limbs from Lloyds of London...

In the OP's case... I don't think that her Farrah Fawcett hair is her only asset... I looked at her port... and she has stunning facial features, a fantastic body, knows how to pose... she is overall an extremely good looking model, that doesn't rely just on her hair...

Although I understand that she loves her hair... but in a few weeks and months, it will have grown back... which would be faster than a law suit will even come to trial... so, she would have to take photos NOW... and then she would have to demonstrate how much monetary loss she suffered because of the new hair cut.

Uniquely American culture of suing?

I thought we got our laws/system of courts modeled after the UK ?

I agree, we do live in a culture where people are out to make a quick buck, often at the expense of others, and with little regard for taking responsibility for one's own actions.

That said, lacking evidence to the contrary, I am taking her at her word for purposes of this thread that she has been damaged, and if she suffered damages she has every right to sue.

I do agree that she should document the outcome of the hair-butchering session ASAP and ideally if she loses any work as a result, she should seek to get that in writing as well.  (Clearly difficult to do, but perhaps some may be helpful enough to write a letter saying I would have hired her or was going to hire here but due to the change in look did not do so.)

Ultimately, it may depend on the contract, in terms of what was in writing, as if she only has her word/oral evidence that she was told no cutting, it is likely she would not have a case at all, but it sounds like she's claiming she has proof she was told one thing and something else happened.

Ummm, yeah, duh, of course she'd need to show damages, if she does not have a provable case, the only people who will get rich are the lawyers.

That said, unlike others I'm not going to assume that she's an idiot and has no idea what would be required to prevail in court.

If she has a case that is worth pursuing she should pursue it, and if it isn't worth pursuing then she should not...  that seems beyond obvious and pure common sense, but she's the only one who really knows the facts well enough to know if it is worth it or not.

Aug 31 13 04:06 pm Link

Photographer

udor

Posts: 25255

New York, New York, US

DougBPhoto wrote:
Uniquely American culture of suing?

I thought we got our laws/system of courts modeled after the UK ?

I agree, we do live in a culture where people are out to make a quick buck, often at the expense of others, and with little regard for taking responsibility for one's own actions.

Yeah... little side note off topic!

Although the US system is modeled after the UK, the statistics show that:

"What country in the world has most lawyers per capita?

Answer
U.S.A.: There is one lawyer for every 265 Americans.

Country       Lawyers      Population        People/Lawyer
US: Lawyers:  1,143,358  Pop: 303MM         P/L: 265
UK Lawyers:    151,043    Pop:   61MM        P/L: 401



I think to recall that the US had also the most litigation lawsuits in the world... suing for every little thing... and have even numerous reality tv court case shows...

It's an American past time... smile

When I grew up in Germany (but that's decades ago and things might have changed) a law suit was a really big deal, because it was also rather rare... over here... nothing goes smoother over some people's lips than "sue 'em!" ... big_smile

Aug 31 13 04:20 pm Link

Photographer

MC Photo

Posts: 4144

New York, New York, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Looknsee Photography wrote:
We haven't seen this "agreement/CONTRACT".

Star wrote:
and why on earth should you? it is a legal document. If you don't take the word of the OP that it exists then why even reply to this topic? I'm outta here, got real work to do.

I'm just saying that we have only heard one side of this story.  I'm a natural born skeptic, meaning that I have no reason to believe or disbelieve the OP.  Why are people here so willing to believe that the model was the victim and the stylist was wrong?  I just think that we lack sufficient information & perspective to make the call one way or the other.


And what makes you so sure you know the whole story?

Because she's expressing the way she feels. It doesn't matter what actually happened. There's nothing that should have made her feel that way.

Unless you think she's flat out lying, which is irrelevant here because it's not a court, and she's not asking us for an objective judgement.

Aug 31 13 06:42 pm Link

Photographer

Nico Simon Princely

Posts: 1972

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

Get a good lawyer and proceed if you feel that's the right course of action. Also take pictures now before is starts to grow if you have not already.

Personally if the story is 100% Accurate I feel she is totally justified in a lawsuit. Fucking hair stylist that do what they want without regard to the model or clients is far to prevalent.

Who has not had a botched haircut by someone that would not listen to what you were saying.

It would be nice if it got national coverage so hair stylist would wake up and realized they need to listen to the person sitting in the chair.

Aug 31 13 06:48 pm Link

Photographer

MC Photo

Posts: 4144

New York, New York, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Well, I tried (and apparently failed) to avoid giving legal advice.  Sorry 'bout that.  Having been through a few civil suits, it's a hot button for me.

However, I thought I gave her some good personal advice; in sum...
...  She's welcome to make a fuss (however she wants to), but making a fuss could
     have an impact on future job opportunities,
...  I suggested that she look at things from the other side -- she got her hair styled
     and then refused to follow through with the photo session, leaving the client
     in a lurch,
...  I suggested that there is not much she can do about the current situation,
     but she could take this opportunity to turn this into a learning experience so
     that she could figure out constructive ways to avoid a repeat of this issue.

My college advisor, a very wise man, once said, "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment".  Her hair is cut.  My best advice -- move forward, not back.

Everything you said was fine until you asked her what she could have done differently. She'll do that on her own and if the question needs to come from an outside source, that's for after the whole thing is worked out.

Your point about it being possible there's more to the story is true. That means she may not have enough facts herself to know what she could have done differently.

Maybe the whole thing is her fault through sloppy communication whatever, but common sense is that you don't point that out when someone is asking for support.

Aug 31 13 06:49 pm Link

Photographer

MC Photo

Posts: 4144

New York, New York, US

DougBPhoto wrote:

Advice = what to do in the future

Blame = what you (she) should have done

She should have left when the scissors came out =/= advice

She should have left when the scissors came out = blame

Exactly.

Aug 31 13 06:51 pm Link

Photographer

MC Photo

Posts: 4144

New York, New York, US

udor wrote:

Doug, this uniquely American culture of suing anybody for everything is, from a non-American perspective... extremely counterproductive in order to make a quick buck.

There are models and movie stars that had gotten insurance for their specific assets, e.g. legs, other limbs from Lloyds of London...

In the OP's case... I don't think that her Farrah Fawcett hair is her only asset... I looked at her port... and she has stunning facial features, a fantastic body, knows how to pose... she is overall an extremely good looking model, that doesn't rely just on her hair...

Although I understand that she loves her hair... but in a few weeks and months, it will have grown back... which would be faster than a law suit will even come to trial... so, she would have to take photos NOW... and then she would have to demonstrate how much monetary loss she suffered because of the new hair cut.

Yeah, wouldn't it be better to be in a country where you had no recourse when you were wronged?

Wouldn't it be better to be in a country where the economy is all based on manual labor rather than abstract interactions like service agreements and IP laws?


If the rest of the world had the same economic day-to-day interactions, they'd have the same legal system.

Maybe she should use the type of violence that might happen in another country to resolve a dispute.

Aug 31 13 06:55 pm Link

Photographer

Nico Simon Princely

Posts: 1972

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

Now from another point of view from what I said before because there are always multiple ways to view any situation and I see she does "Healing Work" so she should be of the spiritual mindset.

From a more spiritual perspective... Since we all create our own reality she could choose to give this situation a meaning that this is a wonderful thing and something great is going to come out of this! Who knows maybe the new look could lead to her getting a national ad campaign.

If you are of this mindset this maybe a better choice than a lawsuit.

I have used this technique of choosing my meanings I assign to a situation before with great success.

I once had a deal for 3 domains names to be sold for mid 5 figures fall though and the broker got a deposit he was supposed to share with me and he refused.

I got mad at first then I choose to assign the meaning that this was great news because I would sell these domains for even more money! In the end I sold them for almost TWICE the amount!

Life is what you create it to be!

Aug 31 13 07:02 pm Link

Photographer

GER Photography

Posts: 8463

Imperial, California, US

Put the scissors down and step away from the model!!!!

Aug 31 13 07:17 pm Link

Photographer

attila zsargo

Posts: 680

Shenzhen, Guangdong, China

sue them !!! sue them !!! or I will sue the OP wasting my time  reading her heart throbbing story, and causing me distress!

Aug 31 13 07:49 pm Link

Photographer

MC Seoul Photography

Posts: 469

Seoul, Seoul, Korea (South)

DougBPhoto wrote:

Advice = what to do in the future

Blame = what you (she) should have done

She should have left when the scissors came out =/= advice

She should have left when the scissors came out = blame

Yeah...because no one has responsibility for their own actions. We can simply hurl ourselves into a situation, make poor choices and blame others for our bad choices.

Aug 31 13 09:55 pm Link

Photographer

MC Seoul Photography

Posts: 469

Seoul, Seoul, Korea (South)

Star wrote:
"This job was for STYLING only. No cutting or color was apart of the agreement/CONTRACT. "

what do people not understand, the client broke the contract. Why on earth would she show to the shoot after the contract was broken? Why shouldn't she sue since she had a contract and they violated it when they cut her hair without permission?

She verbally agreed on the spot to allow them to alter her hair beyond the scope of the contract. The client offered to alter the contract, she agreed. The client did no unilaterally break any contract.

Aug 31 13 09:58 pm Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I'm just saying that we have only heard one side of this story.  I'm a natural born skeptic, meaning that I have no reason to believe or disbelieve the OP.  Why are people here so willing to believe that the model was the victim and the stylist was wrong?  I just think that we lack sufficient information & perspective to make the call one way or the other.


And what makes you so sure you know the whole story?

MC Photo wrote:
Because she's expressing the way she feels. It doesn't matter what actually happened. There's nothing that should have made her feel that way.

Unless you think she's flat out lying, which is irrelevant here because it's not a court, and she's not asking us for an objective judgement.

Okay -- honesty test.

Suppose I start a thread as a photographer, which says...
...  I hired a model for a paid styling shoot,
...  She signed a contract saying that her hair will be styled,
...  She was asked whether her hair could be cut, and she agreed,
...  She spent two hours getting prepped for the photography,
...  When she was done, she threw a hissy fit,
...  She refused to go through with the shoot!
...  I lost the client,
...  The shoot cost me a lot of money,
...  And now she's threatening to sue me,
...  Why doesn't MM have a global page where I can warn other photographers
     about this flaky model?

From the myriad plethora of flake threads, I would expect that the majority of thread participants would commiserate with the photographer OP and would agree that the model was unreasonable.

I say again -- we have only heard one side of this story.  I have no reason to believe or disbelieve the OP. 

I truly think it's great that you are empathetic with the model, but I think simply giving this model OP sympathy is not much help.  All I'm trying to do is to challenge her to think about her situation, make good decisions, and attempt to figure out how to prevent this same situation from reoccurring.


MC Photo wrote:
Everything you said was fine until you asked her what she could have done differently.

Your point about it being possible there's more to the story is true.

Maybe the whole thing is her fault through sloppy communication whatever, but common sense is that you don't point that out when someone is asking for support.

Well, I reread the original post -- she never really asked for support.

Sep 01 13 08:56 am Link

Photographer

Mortonovich

Posts: 6209

San Diego, California, US

Monica L C wrote:
Instead of supporting me, my agencies only concern was if I was going to do the actual shoot or not. This happened on the prep day. I felt a severe amount of pressure to decide.

Drop that agency like a bad habit.
Tell the photo people to pound sand.
Screw a couple hundred bucks. Fuck 'em.
Sleep better.

Sep 01 13 09:17 am Link

Photographer

Andrew Thomas Evans

Posts: 24079

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

T-D-L wrote:
That's really all this boils down to.  I wish people would learn to accept some of the blame for their mistakes.  You say the shoot was for styling only, so the moment the stylist asked if you'd like anything other than that you should have said "No".  You allowed them to proceed, and then didn't bother keeping an eye on the progress. 

Yes, they did something drastically different, and they should have consulted you further...but in the end, that pair of scissors would have never come out had you not agreed to it.  Also, for someone so concerned about losing potential income....you chose to flake on the shoot after the hair was already cut...not really a bright thing to do.  Your hair will grow back, but anyone associated with that shoot, anyone who is friends and hears about how you wasted their time during prep AND flaked on the paid shoot (and yes, EVERYONE in this industry talks, especially in our neck of the woods) will never book you for anything again.

So, here we are.  Your hair may or may not be fucked up.  It will take a long time to grow back by your account.  Can you sue?  Sure.  Will you win?  I dunno, but I'm sure the first thing the judge will ask is "Did you agree to let her cut the hair?", then it's all going to be arguing over semantics and interpretation.  All at the same time your reputation will be harmed because not only did you bail on a job, but you also sue clients.  My suggestion, learn from your mistake:  IF a job says you do a,b, and c....don't do h, r, v, g, or any other things that you aren't obligated to do.  In the meantime talk with your agency and see what their suggestions are for your hair, get another hair cut, and start shooting again.  It's not like models have never drastically changed their looks before, and there's not much you can do in the meantime unless you'd prefer to quit working for the next year...

I'm going to go with this.

Plus why not just do the job? Your hair was ready up to their "standards" anyway and it's money? After that would be the time to complain to the agency about everything, not before.

I mean, what happens next time when they do makeup that looks terrible to you, or when they have clothes that look terrible to you, or a product that you may not agree with?

Then I just re-noticed the title "Losing $$$ is not worth your integrity".

You're a model, you get paid to model, and integrity in this case would have been to suck it up and model, get paid, then bring things up later with your agency. I'm not doubting the haircut is terrible, but it's done now and you have to move forward. Integrity isn't backing out of the job and asking about a lawsuit, it's doing your work and finding a way to move forward though a difficult time.


Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Sep 01 13 09:29 am Link

Photographer

Light and Lens Studio

Posts: 3450

Sisters, Oregon, US

Sorry that the OP had this stressful and unhappy experience.

That said, her hair will grow out.

Sadly, this is not the worst thing that ever happened to a model.  Since time (and normal hair growth) will heal the "damage", it should not be blown up into a 'life changing event'.  As others have pointed out, accepting the job is not compromising her integrity.  She signed up for the job and the haircut was part of it.  Now, time to suck it up and do what she was hired to do.  She gets to pass "Go" and collect the model fee. 

Suggesting suing people that provide you work is dumb ass advice.  In this case she probably won't win (even in LA LA land) and she will incur significant legal expenses while branding herself among agencies as "not a team player" or a "trouble maker".  Neither of which is conducive to ongoing employment.

Next time, perhaps, she will be more attentive to what people are doing to her appearance.  That is her responsibility.

Sep 01 13 10:00 am Link

Model

sasweets

Posts: 410

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

If your agency isn't mad that says something.. You should be concerned about that too. All the models I know have to look a certain way like their polaroids or their agents get mad. I'm really confused how your agency thinks it's all good.

* I get what you mean with the haircut. My hair wasn't super long but it was shoulder-length and it was traumatic for me to shave my head but it was asked and I had to do it. Yours was more of a blindside kind of thing. So that's way worse but hopefully your hair grows back.

Sep 01 13 10:03 am Link

Wardrobe Stylist

Tiffany_B

Posts: 1551

Atlanta, Georgia, US

MC Seoul Photography wrote:
She verbally agreed on the spot to allow them to alter her hair beyond the scope of the contract. The client offered to alter the contract, she agreed. The client did no unilaterally break any contract.

+1

OP while what happened was unfortunate you ultimately allowed it to happen. If the initial contract was for styling only and you by your own admission agreed to have your hair "trimmed" and "thinned out" you're equally at fault for what occurred and an attempt at legal recourse will likely not serve you as well as you think it will since the stylist did not do these things to your hair without informing you that they would be done. If you truly viewed your hair as an integral part of your brand/trademark then why would you consent to having it cut at all? It seems as if you're unhappiness with the result is what is truly fueling any action on your part.

Sep 01 13 10:15 am Link

Photographer

Eralar

Posts: 1781

Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada

It's funny. I am not in the industry, and can still see where many advices were... well, unfortunate.

For legal advice, OP already said she has turned to a lawyer. Now she is turning to industry people, and got so much "sue them" without looking at the impact on her career.

I always answer while believing what op says in a thread. But there is one thing we don't know.

-has OP discussed this with the client to see whose decision it was, and how she could get compensated?

-Also, how big is this client? By not completing the shoot, did she put her agency in hot water with their biggest client? If it was the case, maybe it explains why they asked her to go through with the shoot anyway.

Now to the big question for industry people: having not read this thread, how many professional photographers would hire a model who has left after 2 hours of prep. without completing the shoot, brought the client (and stylist) in court, and put her agency in a bad spot with this client / photographer?

Look at all the threads about how you should choose a model to avoid flakes and drama, all the red flags you have to avoid, and since it is for a client of yours, put all of this in the perspective where your professional reputation is at stake.

Sometimes, to help someone on the long term, you have to help them see the long term consequences of their actions. In this case, after leaving the shoot, how would a lawsuit hurt her career on the long term?

Her lawyer will only look at the chances of winning this action with positive results (at least for himself), not at the damages it could do her in her career.

Sep 01 13 11:31 am Link

Model

Gianna Virginia

Posts: 178

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US

Monica L C wrote:
A lesson in claiming your worth and standing up for yourself.

Now I know this could be a lot worse, but it's about the principal.

Here is my story...

I booked a job through one of my agencies for a hair "styling" photo shoot.

This job was for STYLING only. No cutting or color was apart of the agreement/CONTRACT. Upon arriving to the prep day shoot I was asked if I could get my hair "trimmed" and "thinned out." I was told that it would look the same, but only more styled. I agreed to this because I assumed that she was not going to drastically change my hair because she was aware of the styling only agreement. Every time she'd cut into my hair with scissors she'd affirm and re-affirm that it wasn't cutting very much. She said this at least 20 times. I trusted what she was saying because of this. I also did not have a mirror around me to  see what she was doing, nor did I really know or understand what was happening to my hair due to the fact that I don't do hair. When she finally provided me with a hand held mirror at the end I could not tell how much hair had been cut when I looked in the mirror. I also waited to touch my hair till I left because I didn't want to interfere with the styling so I could not feel how much she cut.

With that said, I was completely traumatized by the end result. The stylist basically didn't give a sh*t about how her choices would potentially affect me. The thickness and length of my hair is half of what it was before my hair was cut. My hair is completely different now. My "brand" is completely different. I went from full, thick mid back length hair to a shoulder length bob with tails. The cut is horrible. Before the cut my hair was f*cking AWESOME! Take a look at my port.

The amount of emotional damage and stress this has caused me is astronomical. I feel violated and taken advantage of. I see to be an infringement of my look/trademark. This has impacted my personal well being and my ability to successfully continue working in this field.

Instead of supporting me, my agencies only concern was if I was going to do the actual shoot or not. This happened on the prep day. I felt a severe amount of pressure to decide.

My choice...

I chose NOT to do the shoot and potentially lose all forms of compensation because I knew deeply within myself doing the shoot was saying what happened was OK. It was not OK. The minute I realized that I didn't need the money and it wasn't worth losing my integrity, and chose not to do the shoot my entire being felt free and empowered.

This isn't just about losing some hair. This is about knowing your worth and standing up for your self when something is in violation of your value. This is about trusting you can receive in a way that supports your highest value.

I feel that a lot of models (even photographers, MU artists and stylists. EVERYONE really) make choices in this industry out of desperation. Models, you are worth more than losing your integrity. In fact, when you start making choices that support your value, you start to attract better experiences.


I've also chosen to take this even further and seek legal help for compensation for a breach of contract.
Including -- Loss of potential work due to changed appearance/look/trademark. Impact on other agencies I am signed with due to putting a hold on sending me out on jobs because I no longer look like my photos. The time it will take to grow my hair back. Minimum 6-12 months. Time/energy/money it will take to get new photos for my portfolio. Therapy - To cope with the emotional trauma/stress from cutting half of my hair off without being told. I've had my hair the same length and thickness for over 23 years. This was traumatizing and feels like a severe violation. "Regrowth" The time spent fixing my hair. (cost of corrective haircuts and extensions)

Thanks for taking the time to read my story.

Make the choice based on your highest value.


Monica

Im sorry you had to go through that. I would be freaking out too. I had a stylist friend give me a wack job cut and that ended the friendship. My hair was a mess, so I can empathize. Your experience sounds worse. Good for you though for standing up for yourself. I hope something good comes of it.

Sep 01 13 11:57 am Link

Photographer

MC Photo

Posts: 4144

New York, New York, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I'm just saying that we have only heard one side of this story.  I'm a natural born skeptic, meaning that I have no reason to believe or disbelieve the OP.  Why are people here so willing to believe that the model was the victim and the stylist was wrong?  I just think that we lack sufficient information & perspective to make the call one way or the other.


And what makes you so sure you know the whole story?

MC Photo wrote:
Because she's expressing the way she feels. It doesn't matter what actually happened. There's nothing that should have made her feel that way.

Unless you think she's flat out lying, which is irrelevant here because it's not a court, and she's not asking us for an objective judgement.

Okay -- honesty test.

Suppose I start a thread as a photographer, which says...
...  I hired a model for a paid styling shoot,
...  She signed a contract saying that her hair will be styled,
...  She was asked whether her hair could be cut, and she agreed,
...  She spent two hours getting prepped for the photography,
...  When she was done, she threw a hissy fit,
...  She refused to go through with the shoot!
...  I lost the client,
...  The shoot cost me a lot of money,
...  And now she's threatening to sue me,
...  Why doesn't MM have a global page where I can warn other photographers
     about this flaky model?

From the myriad plethora of flake threads, I would expect that the majority of thread participants would commiserate with the photographer OP and would agree that the model was unreasonable.

I say again -- we have only heard one side of this story.  I have no reason to believe or disbelieve the OP. 

I truly think it's great that you are empathetic with the model, but I think simply giving this model OP sympathy is not much help.  All I'm trying to do is to challenge her to think about her situation, make good decisions, and attempt to figure out how to prevent this same situation from reoccurring.



Well, I reread the original post -- she never really asked for support.

Why did she make the post?

Was it to get your official legal opinion?

Really think it through.

Sep 03 13 03:01 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

MC Photo wrote:
Why did she make the post?

Don't know.  She didn't say.  Do you know?

MC Photo wrote:
Was it to get your official legal opinion?

Don't know.  I don't believe I offered an "official legal opinion".  Indeed, I went to great lengths to avoid giving a legal opinion.  Besides, her purpose might well have been to solicit feedback on what she should do next.  Who knows?

MC Photo wrote:
Really think it through.

Look -- her OP was rambling, and its purpose was obscure. 

If the purpose of her OP was to get sympathy, she got plenty.  If the purpose was to find encouragement to learn from her experience, she got some of that, too.  If the purpose was to get feedback on her planned next steps, she got that, too.  Why pick on me, just because I wasn't one of those "Oh, poor baby" posters?

Sep 03 13 07:51 am Link

Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 22232

Stamford, Connecticut, US

...

Sep 03 13 11:50 am Link

Photographer

udor

Posts: 25255

New York, New York, US

MC Photo wrote:
Yeah, wouldn't it be better to be in a country where you had no recourse when you were wronged?

Wouldn't it be better to be in a country where the economy is all based on manual labor rather than abstract interactions like service agreements and IP laws?


If the rest of the world had the same economic day-to-day interactions, they'd have the same legal system.

Maybe she should use the type of violence that might happen in another country to resolve a dispute.

OH?!!!

You mean countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Holland, France, Germany, UK, Japan...

Yes, those and others are economically so inept, have no infrastructure, no IP laws and service agreements and there is a lot of violence happ... Oh! Wait... no, there isn't that kind of violence happening as it is in the US...

Sep 03 13 12:10 pm Link

Photographer

Bob Helm Photography

Posts: 18903

Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US

udor wrote:

Hi Monica!

You have heard many people of support of you, some critical voices as well...

Now... here is my take on this...

True, the haircut was not at all what you've expected... and it's understandable that you are upset... and you might think that your stance "integrity vs. money" is the moral highway and a good principle.

Let me ask you this: In the end... who had the greatest loss, who got hurt the most, by your decision to boycott the shoot?

The "damage" was already done... hair grows back... and you could have used the new style on the first page of your portfolio... as you know... that's how it is done normally... new hairstyle... first page of portfolio, no need to redo the ENTIRE book!!! 

You might as well have taken a pro-active step and just go through with the shoot and make the money... maybe getting some more, because they cut more of your hair than you were informed about.

I had model friends in NYC, who had long hair, went to a show (for Wendy Williams in a particular case) and the hair was cropped, thinned and shortened, pretty much as in your case... but guess what... when I asked my friend how she felt about it, she shrugged her shoulders and said, that she is getting paid for this... and moved on.

No biggie...

Well... those are my dos céntimos!

This, the only thing that happened by sticking up for principle is that you lost pay for the job and may have damaged YOUR reputation with both the client and your agency.
While I would have not done the same I am glad you made a decision and stuck by it. Now see what you can book with the new style.

Sep 03 13 03:48 pm Link

Model

P I X I E

Posts: 35440

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

This is part of why I don't do hair modeling anymore. It sucks.

Sep 04 13 06:18 am Link

Model

K I C K H A M

Posts: 14689

Los Angeles, California, US

Meh, hair changes go better for some than others.

You give your limits before hair shows and they are supposed to abide by them. I had it happen to me once, and yes, I got paid--and then lost all the work I previously had and had over a YEAR with hardly any work.

Was it my fault for agreeing to a small cut and they instead gave me a bob with bangs? Hell no.

Whatever the OP decided was between her and her agency, but really, cancelling a shoot because one party didn't hold up to the agreement for a HAIR show probably won't do much damage to you.

I'm hoping that, whatever they did, they didn't take too much length. I hear people saying, "Oh, whatever, it'll grow back." Yeah, that could take 2 years and that's like a decade in model years.

Suing isn't worth it, though. Nobody wants a sue-happy model.

Sep 04 13 06:28 am Link

Photographer

LagunaBeachBikini

Posts: 567

Laguna Beach, California, US

Monica L C wrote:
This job was for STYLING only. No cutting or color was apart of the agreement/CONTRACT. Upon arriving to the prep day shoot I was asked if I could get my hair "trimmed" and "thinned out." I was told that it would look the same, but only more styled. I agreed to this because I assumed that she was not going to drastically change my hair because she was aware of the styling only agreement. Every time she'd cut into my hair with scissors she'd affirm and re-affirm that it wasn't cutting very much. She said this at least 20 times. I trusted what she was saying because of this. I also did not have a mirror around me to  see what she was doing, nor did I really know or understand what was happening to my hair due to the fact that I don't do hair. When she finally provided me with a hand held mirror at the end I could not tell how much hair had been cut when I looked in the mirror. I also waited to touch my hair till I left because I didn't want to interfere with the styling so I could not feel how much she cut.

With that said, I was completely traumatized by the end result. The stylist basically didn't give a sh*t about how her choices would potentially affect me. The thickness and length of my hair is half of what it was before my hair was cut. My hair is completely different now. My "brand" is completely different. I went from full, thick mid back length hair to a shoulder length bob with tails. The cut is horrible. Before the cut my hair was f*cking AWESOME! Take a look at my port.

This is very common. I have heard the same story a hundred times.

I tell everyone, never agree to let anyone cut or trim your hair for a hair show. They will butcher your hair every time.

With that said, I would go do the job, because they may take action against you if you don't.

Afterward, ask them to compensate you for your losses which they caused.

Ask for compensation and try to resolve the dispute before talking about suing them. I can tell you that judges are biased against people that don't attempt to resolve a dispute before going to court.

Sep 04 13 06:30 am Link

Model

K I C K H A M

Posts: 14689

Los Angeles, California, US

Light and Lens Studio wrote:
Sorry that the OP had this stressful and unhappy experience.

That said, her hair will grow out.

Sadly, this is not the worst thing that ever happened to a model.  Since time (and normal hair growth) will heal the "damage", it should not be blown up into a 'life changing event'.  As others have pointed out, accepting the job is not compromising her integrity.  She signed up for the job and the haircut was part of it.  Now, time to suck it up and do what she was hired to do.  She gets to pass "Go" and collect the model fee. 

Suggesting suing people that provide you work is dumb ass advice.  In this case she probably won't win (even in LA LA land) and she will incur significant legal expenses while branding herself among agencies as "not a team player" or a "trouble maker".  Neither of which is conducive to ongoing employment.

Next time, perhaps, she will be more attentive to what people are doing to her appearance.  That is her responsibility.

You can't always tell how much people are cutting off.

And once those scissors go through, it doesn't matter. You have no control.

Sep 04 13 06:32 am Link

Model

K I C K H A M

Posts: 14689

Los Angeles, California, US

Amazing Productions wrote:

This is very common. I have heard the same story a hundred times.

I tell everyone, never agree to let anyone cut or trim your hair for a hair show. They will butcher your hair every time.

Well, *kind* of.

I've done about 6 hair shows.

Only one jacked up my hair. The thing is, it only takes one....

For me, it isn't worth the risk. Especially since a lot of the "higher" paying ones are only like 800-1,000.

Sep 04 13 06:33 am Link

Photographer

L Cowles Photography

Posts: 833

Sun City West, Arizona, US

Hunter Wald wrote:
I suggest going to the shoot, getting paid, registering a protest with the highest authority there, and then seeing a lawyer.  Get some good legal council.  Find an agency that has your back.

Like I said, any a-hole can sue any other a-hole for whatever reason.  Winning, however, is another matter, and even if the model wins, she'll lose.  If she wins, her hair won't be restored, will it?  Here's what will happen if she sues...
...  Her lawyer will get paid, a lot,
...  Their lawyer will get paid, a lot,
...  Lawyers, who are paid by the hour, will not be in a hurry to resolve
     the dispute,
...  As the plaintiff, she will have to show (prove) damages,
...  Their lawyers will say horrible things about her,
...  She will lose sleep,
...  She will lose work opportunities,
...  She may lose, in which case, she may have to pay the defendants and
     their lawyer (after all she bailed on the shoot),
...  She may win, but if she does, she probably won't recover enough to
     cover her legal expenses,
...  She will tug on the coats of strangers to tell her sad story,
...  etc.

Yeah, she can sue, but to me, that's probably modeling career suicide.

I think I would have completed the job.  First the get the money and second, they may come back and sue her for not completing the job.  It might be easier to win a suite when she completed her part of the contract.

Also word gets around about those that sue.

Sep 04 13 06:56 am Link

Artist/Painter

Hunter GWPB

Posts: 8179

King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US

K I C K H A M wrote:
You give your limits before hair shows and they are supposed to abide by them. I had it happen to me once, and yes, I got paid--and then lost all the work I previously had and had over a YEAR with hardly any work.

Hunter Wald wrote:
I suggest going to the shoot, getting paid, registering a protest with the highest authority there, and then seeing a lawyer.  Get some good legal council.  Find an agency that has your back.

My responses in bold to Mr. Cowles:

L Cowles Photography wrote:
Like I said, any a-hole can sue any other a-hole for whatever reason.  Winning, however, is another matter, and even if the model wins, she'll lose.  If she wins, her hair won't be restored, will it? If she does nothing will her hair be restored? Here's what will happen if she sues...
...  Her lawyer will get paid, a lot,  So? She can consult for nothing and drop it.  Or she can pursue it and pay.  Or let a family member or friend help her.  Sometimes all it takes is a well worded letter, not a lawsuit.
...  Their lawyer will get paid, a lot, Should that bother her?
...  Lawyers, who are paid by the hour, will not be in a hurry to resolve
     the dispute, I never said lawyers were honest or the cream of society
...  As the plaintiff, she will have to show (prove) damages,  Kickham said she lost work in a similar situation (see quote above).  One canceled shoot will prove damages
...  Their lawyers will say horrible things about her, Or she can post on mm forums and let people say horrible things about her.  I guess what people say should scare someone away from standing up for themselves
...  She will lose sleep,  True either way
...  She will lose work opportunities, True either way
...  She may lose, in which case, she may have to pay the defendants and
     their lawyer (after all she bailed on the shoot), Another reason to let people walk on you.  Lawyer fees aren't always awarded to the winner.  And the same problem goes against the defendant- the defendant may have to pay legal fees.  And we don't know if she bailed.  That was her plan, but I, and many others suggested to her to get paid by doing the shoot.  She has not posted again to update us.

...  She may win, but if she does, she probably won't recover enough to
     cover her legal expenses, Another reason to let people walk on you
...  She will tug on the coats of strangers to tell her sad story, So?  I have no problem with listening to her.
...  etc. Hard to dispute this one.

Yeah, she can sue, but to me, that's probably modeling career suicide. I seriously doubt that one law suit would wreck her career.  Although, I read in the forums how a couple of threads with a bad attitude will wreck your career.  If the "industry" is that bad, why be part of it anyway?
I think I would have completed the job.  First the get the money and second, they may come back and sue her for not completing the job.  It might be easier to win a suite(suit:  it isn't a room) when she completed her part of the contract. True.  Might go against her too.  But remember, I said go ahead with the shoot.  It isn't clear to me if she still had that option when she posted but at the time I felt her text indicated she did.

Also word gets around about those that sue.
See above where you already said that with "career suicide".

Why are you dragging me back into this anyway? 

To the others that say she agreed to the changes by agreeing to let them cut her hair, I disagree.  She agreed only to what they were telling her they were doing.  If they were doing something else, then they were deceiving her.  If they failed to permit her to see in a mirror as they worked, they were deceiving her.

Sep 04 13 07:41 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Anyone notice that the person who started this thread has not returned to this thread since the original post?

Sep 04 13 07:45 am Link

Model

Eisbaer63

Posts: 1

Owensboro, Kentucky, US

Monica,
I am sorry to hear what happened to you. I applaud you, for standing your ground, and not doing the shoot. BY ALL POSSIBLE MEANS, pursue legal recourse. You were lied to or misled, and your contract WAS breached. You should seek not only punitive damages, but compensation for all the work, and therefore all forms of compensation AND recognition that you will lose as a result of your altered look.
Your story is a lesson to us all; models, stylists, photographers, and agencies. I pray that things work out well for you in the end.

Sep 04 13 07:59 am Link

Photographer

Mortonovich

Posts: 6209

San Diego, California, US

K I C K H A M wrote:
Meh, hair changes go better for some than others.

You give your limits before hair shows and they are supposed to abide by them. I had it happen to me once, and yes, I got paid--and then lost all the work I previously had and had over a YEAR with hardly any work.

Was it my fault for agreeing to a small cut and they instead gave me a bob with bangs? Hell no.

Whatever the OP decided was between her and her agency, but really, cancelling a shoot because one party didn't hold up to the agreement for a HAIR show probably won't do much damage to you.

I'm hoping that, whatever they did, they didn't take too much length. I hear people saying, "Oh, whatever, it'll grow back." Yeah, that could take 2 years and that's like a decade in model years.

Suing isn't worth it, though. Nobody wants a sue-happy model.

I'm glad someone else said it and that it came from a voice of experience.
Let it go and move on because it will grow back?! Fuck that! Fuck the agency for not standing up and fuck the hair show people. That's bullshit. Anybody with any experience will know that altering a model's look is a big no-no.

Sep 04 13 09:14 am Link

Clothing Designer

Atelier Benson

Posts: 2019

Detroit, Michigan, US

Star wrote:
"This job was for STYLING only. No cutting or color was apart of the agreement/CONTRACT. "

what do people not understand, the client broke the contract. Why on earth would she show to the shoot after the contract was broken? Why shouldn't she sue since she had a contract and they violated it when they cut her hair without permission?

THIS is exactly correct. I sometimes wonder if half of the people commenting have actually read and understood what is being written?

Sep 04 13 10:18 am Link

Model

Monica L C

Posts: 9

Los Angeles, California, US

Update:

Did I do the shoot? No.

The actual shoot was two days after the prep day. At the time, I wasn't emotionally stable enough to go through with the shoot. I decided I couldn't do it after what had happened and put myself through that trauma again. I chose to potentially lose compensation but realized putting myself through that again wasn't worth any amount of money. Hence the title of my thread. I was really just posting it for anyone else who might be going, might go through or have gone through something similar. Many people that responded to it, didn't really get that. And some did. Thank you for the support.

I sought out legal advice and spoke with people in the hair industry who have had similar experiences and have decided to take legal action to receive compensation for my losses --The cost to fix my hair (extensions), new photos (if I chose to pay), therapy, what a model does get paid to cut that much hair, etc. It's not a huge case, but my lawyer told me it was worth pursuing.

The reason for me doing this is more the principal for the wrong doing, standing up for myself, and establishing stronger boundaries in my life so that things like this don't happen to me.

Did my choice ruin my reputation? No. And if it did, would I care? No.

It's definitely been a life changing experience.

Thanks to the ones who actually understood the point of me writing this. And thanks to plethora of other opinions -- Cause after all they are all just opinions. 

Best,

Monica

Sep 04 13 11:02 am Link

Model

Monica L C

Posts: 9

Los Angeles, California, US

Atelier Benson  wrote:

THIS is exactly correct. I sometimes wonder if half of the people commenting have actually read and understood what is being written?

YES! Exactly. Thank you. smile

Sep 04 13 11:04 am Link