Tim Foster wrote:

KenBrandon wrote:
I don't however think professional cameras will evolve to be smaller though, and here is why.

1. Camera needs to be a certain size to feel comfortable. Many of us purchase battery grips that make the camera fit more "fully" in our hands. I dont see us moving into cameras that are too small (using just you first 2 or 3 fingers) for a long shooting day
[...]

Have you seen a Leica before?

I used a M5 for a few months, when it was (relatively) new. Way too small for my hands. The M9 is a tiny bit smaller than that.

I liked the lightweight attributes, and the rangefinder was fine (for normal focal lengths), but it was notably harder to hold securely than even my FTb, which was only slightly larger; the slight thickness difference was enough to make my hands cramp after holding it for an hour or so.

The MUCH larger SLRs and dSLRs of today are, to my mind/hands, much more comfortable to hold for long periods, but also weigh far too much to hold comfortably for long periods.

To be honest, I suspect something like Sony's lens+sensor design to be the future, where the capture optics are contained in a more readily handholdable fashion. Pistol grip, perhaps, since it doesn't have to be held to the face?

139 x 80 x 37 mm

Kevin Connery wrote:

Tim Foster wrote:

KenBrandon wrote:
I don't however think professional cameras will evolve to be smaller though, and here is why.

1. Camera needs to be a certain size to feel comfortable. Many of us purchase battery grips that make the camera fit more "fully" in our hands. I dont see us moving into cameras that are too small (using just you first 2 or 3 fingers) for a long shooting day
[...]

Have you seen a Leica before?

I used a M5 for a few months, when it was (relatively) new. Way too small for my hands. The M9 is a tiny bit smaller than that.

I liked the lightweight attributes, and the rangefinder was fine (for normal focal lengths), but it was notably harder to hold securely than even my FTb, which was only slightly larger; the slight thickness difference was enough to make my hands cramp after holding it for an hour or so.

The MUCH larger SLRs and dSLRs of today are, to my mind/hands, much more comfortable to hold for long periods, but also weigh far too much to hold comfortably for long periods.

To be honest, I suspect something like Sony's lens+sensor design to be the future, where the capture optics are contained in a more readily handholdable fashion. Pistol grip, perhaps, since it doesn't have to be held to the face?

139 x 80 x 37 mm

It's a comparison like that which sold me on the Olympus OMD



Compare it in size with the D7000 - there is a HUGE difference.

Zack Zoll wrote:
I'm pretty sure that you could adapt a 70-300 to a Leica, but you might have a tough time actually using it - let alone a 70-200.

From the videos I've seen using a Leica M+EVF+R-M adapter + 70-200R lens seems pretty easy/strait forward.

Leighthenubian wrote:
New OMD is out...Olympus OM-D E-M1

And the DSLR takes one more hit to the gut.

To me that seems like the worst of both worlds. You have the bulk of a SLR and a small sensor. It's Four Thirds but can mount m4/3 lens, does that mean you need an adapter to mount your own native lenses?
Plus it has lower resolution and costs more than a D7100

Yingwah Productions wrote:

To me that seems like the worst of both worlds. You have the bulk of a SLR and a small sensor. It's Four Thirds but can mount m4/3 lens, does that mean you need an adapter to mount your own native lenses?
Plus it has lower resolution and costs more than a D7100

I watched this last night..addressed the adapter situation: http://youtu.be/ESOj56fWB8Q

Virtual Studio wrote:
New Olympus mirrorless is the best selling camera on Amazon US site.

One it's first day of release the new Oly EM1 is the most ordered camer in the USA. These rankings change reasonably frequently - but it's a long way off being a shabby start.

http://www.43rumors.com/first-preorder- … amazon-us/

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Elec … cs/281052/

As an Olympus 4/3 user, I can tell you there is a lot of pent up demand for a new "pro" body, especially for those of us that have invested a lot in their glass, but I'm not sure this fits the bill for me.  It's pretty spendy and there are conflicting reports about how well the legacy glass works with the adapter for this body.  Even though most Olympus glass is smaller than the FF equivalents, I do have a couple of really big and heavy lenses and I think they'd be pretty awkward on a body that small.  I also don't really consider it a "pro" body when they include gimmicky stuff like "art filters".  I'm taking a wait and see attitude.  I'd like to try one out with some of my lenses though...

GM Photography wrote:

As an Olympus 4/3 user, I can tell you there is a lot of pent up demand for a new "pro" body, especially for those of us that have invested a lot in their glass, but I'm not sure this fits the bill for me.  It's pretty spendy and there are conflicting reports about how well the legacy glass works with the adapter for this body.  Even though most Olympus glass is smaller than the FF equivalents, I do have a couple of really big and heavy lenses and I think they'd be pretty awkward on a body that small.  I also don't really consider it a "pro" body when they include gimmicky stuff like "art filters".  I'm taking a wait and see attitude.  I'd like to try one out with some of my lenses though...

I think people have to get off the "art" filters stuff...that's just the way the market is going. Why don't you try it out in your typical shooting situation and make your decision based on the end result (IQ, AF, ISO Performance etc). Who cares if it has a couple of silly filters.

Leighthenubian wrote:
I think people have to get off the "art" filters stuff...that's just the way the market is going. Why don't you try it out in your typical shooting situation and make your decision based on the end result (IQ, AF, ISO Performance etc). Who cares if it has a couple of silly filters.

One of my Olympus bodies has the art filters.  It doesn't make it less of a camera, but I've never used them.  They are silly.  Did you read the rest of my post?  It wouldn't be art filters that kept me from buying it.

GM Photography wrote:

One of my Olympus bodies has the art filters.  It doesn't make it less of a camera, but I've never used them.  They are silly.  Did you read the rest of my post?  It wouldn't be art filters that kept me from buying it.

I did read all of it..and no offense but it sounded like a bunch of excuses.

Yingwah Productions wrote:
So why is it that sales are down on mirrorless cameras? Not only that but sales of SLRs increased.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/20 … ufacturers

If you look at panasonic's 3 new lenses just released you'll see they're larger, heavier and weather sealed. This is because they want to concentrate on competing with the pro SLRs. Having a heavy lens attached to the front of something the size and shape of a pop-tart doesn't make it easy to hold.

And because sales of compact point and shoots took a nosedive, companies are now concentrating on high end P&S cameras. If you're a light hobbyist/regular person you can buy 2 cameras that total less than $800 and fulfill all your needs. A canon G14 type camera to put in your pocket and take good pictures at parties, and a crazy 60X zoom for event days like the US Open. (Most likely it will just be smartphone and 60X zoom camera)
If you're an enthusiast, you can buy a rebel or equivalent for same price as a compact mirrorless and have bigger lens selection and future upgrade path.
Mirrorless cameras will get squeezed out by the high and low ends


The only real buyer I see is a heavy SLR user that wants a secondary camera to fool around with on days they don't want to carry their full kit. That seems like pretty small market to aim for.

First off, that one article is way off base and very naive in comparing sales  to the DSLRs... oh and it's sponsored by Canon... go figure.

Second, you are missing the point of the mirror less cameras.
It is NOT out to take place of the DSLRs, manufactures are targeting a small audience in the photo industry, people who want a more portable option to having DSLR quality images without the bulk, or for those looking for a Back-up camera system that takes up less room in the camera bag.
Also, some like Leica and Fuji kind of are turning the clock back to the ergonomics of old manual rangefinder street camera enthusiasts with the quality if it's new digital sensor arrays and choice of using dedicated glass as well as old glass.

If numbers seams low, it's because of experts big picture expectations of standard industry growth. Leica, Fuji, Olympus, Sony are doing quite fine and better in their projections and targets. That is why you see them continuing to produce new cameras.

In the last 35 years I have lugged around everything from DSLRs, SLRs, 120 MF, 4x5 and an 8X10 once or twice. I have recently purchased the X-E1 and have attached my old glass as well as XF lenses to it and it has become my #1 camera for many shoots from street to landscape to location model shoots, and more and more people (and pros) I talk to are doing the same lately... so I see differently from what you read on the internet.

What I have noticed is that novices and people who are dedicated to their DSLR systems will buy the DSLRs, Mirrorless technology and systems are still very new to people and a huge percentage of consumers are unfamiliar with the cameras and what they can do. Mirrorless systems (interchangeable) has only been picking up steam in the last 15 months so it's too early to tell IMHO.

Art Silva Photography wrote:
First off, that one article is way off base and very naive in comparing sales  to the DSLRs... oh and it's sponsored by Canon... go figure.

They weren't comparing sales to DSLRs, they were looking at sales figures of mirrorless cameras that were down from last year.

Art Silva Photography wrote:
Second, you are missing the point of the mirror less cameras.
It is NOT out to take place of the DSLRs, manufactures are targeting a small audience in the photo industry, people who want a more portable option to having DSLR quality images without the bulk, or for those looking for a Back-up camera system that takes up less room in the camera bag.

I already stated in an earlier post that the only realistic target is for a secondary system for DSLR users. But thats such a small market segment, the company will never make money. Since olympus and Panasonic only make mirrorless, they obviously want to appeal to as large a market as possible.
  But few people are willing to buy multiple cameras and the price point mirrorless occupy doesn't make sense. Compact bridge cameras offer lower price and more convenient carry form, while some mirrorless cost MORE than better performing DSLRs. If you're looking for one camera, most people will go for the lower or upper end based on cost.   

Art Silva Photography wrote:
If numbers seams low, it's because of experts big picture expectations of standard industry growth. Leica, Fuji, Olympus, Sony are doing quite fine and better in their projections and targets. That is why you see them continuing to produce new cameras.

Nikon has the best selling camera in the mirrorless segment,( http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50562689 ) and they still say they have horrible sales. What do you think that says for other camera makers? And Sony has reported losses in electronics dept for last 4 years, so where are you getting "doing quite fine and better in their projections and targets." from? Especially when there are dozens of reports of low mirrorless sales in europe, americas, and other parts of asia. Cameras take 1 or 2 years to design and produce so of course you'll see new cameras in the near future.

Art Silva Photography wrote:
In the last 35 years I have lugged around everything from DSLRs, SLRs, 120 MF, 4x5 and an 8X10 once or twice. I have recently purchased the X-E1 and have attached my old glass as well as XF lenses to it and it has become my #1 camera for many shoots from street to landscape to location model shoots, and more and more people (and pros) I talk to are doing the same lately... so I see differently from what you read on the internet.

I've just spent 2 weeks at the US Open and currently in the middle of Fashion week. I pass 10,000 people a day and seen very little mirrorless cameras. Plenty of bridge camera or DSLRs (and tons of cellphones obviously)

Art Silva Photography wrote:
Mirrorless technology and systems are still very new to people and a huge percentage of consumers are unfamiliar with the cameras and what they can do. Mirrorless systems (interchangeable) has only been picking up steam in the last 15 months so it's too early to tell IMHO.

What statistics do you have to show this? all the numbers say sales are down. Mirrorless sales peaked around 2 years ago and have been going down.

Yingwah Productions wrote:
What statistics do you have to show this? all the numbers say sales are down. Mirrorless sales peaked around 2 years ago and have been going down.

Everyone's sales are down. It's tough out there. People are broke.

Leighthenubian wrote:

I did read all of it..and no offense but it sounded like a bunch of excuses.

Excuses for what?

GM Photography wrote:

Excuses for what?

Only you know for what..here is what I saw:

A:As an Olympus 4/3 user, I can tell you there is a lot of pent up demand for a new "pro" body, especially for those of us that have invested a lot in their glass, but I'm not sure this fits the bill for me. 

B) It's pretty spendy and there are conflicting reports about how well the legacy glass works with the adapter for this body. 

C) Even though most Olympus glass is smaller than the FF equivalents, I do have a couple of really big and heavy lenses and I think they'd be pretty awkward on a body that small. 

D) I also don't really consider it a "pro" body when they include gimmicky stuff like "art filters".  I'm taking a wait and see attitude.  I'd like to try one out with some of my lenses though...

Four excuses right in this post you made.

Some people fear change..when Canon changed their lens mount many people complained about all the expensive FD glass being obsolete...and on and on and on.

Why don't you just try out the new camera?

Leighthenubian wrote:

Only you know for what..here is what I saw:

A:As an Olympus 4/3 user, I can tell you there is a lot of pent up demand for a new "pro" body, especially for those of us that have invested a lot in their glass, but I'm not sure this fits the bill for me. 

B) It's pretty spendy and there are conflicting reports about how well the legacy glass works with the adapter for this body. 

C) Even though most Olympus glass is smaller than the FF equivalents, I do have a couple of really big and heavy lenses and I think they'd be pretty awkward on a body that small. 

D) I also don't really consider it a "pro" body when they include gimmicky stuff like "art filters".  I'm taking a wait and see attitude.  I'd like to try one out with some of my lenses though...

Four excuses right in this post you made.

Some people fear change..when Canon changed their lens mount many people complained about all the expensive FD glass being obsolete...and on and on and on.

Why don't you just try out the new camera?

I'd be happy to try one out.  There isn't anything to try out yet, so all I was doing is speculating based on the limited information available from some reviewers that have been given advance copies of the camera.

I still don't understand what you think I'm making excuses for.  Not buying something that I don't really want or need?  I have no fear of change.  I hope that Olympus is successful in replacing their DSLR line with mirrorless bodies and that they support their existing base of 4/3 users.  I'm not sure they're there yet.  Time will tell.

Virtual Studio wrote:

Everyone's sales are down. It's tough out there. People are broke.

DSLR sales are higher than last year in japan, and pretty even from previous years in Europe and Americas.
Part of the reason Japan sales might be higher is that the study is done Jan-April. Golden Week is in april and the country goes on vacation, even banks are closed, so people are buying new cameras before going on vacation.

Zack Zoll wrote:
There are there currently no truly amazing wide angle or normal lenses on the m4/3rds system.  There, I said it - let the hate wash over me.

heh heh, I wonder by what standard?

I think the even the NEX  16mm with the .45 converter on it yields just as good quality as my 50D or 7D with the Tokina 11-16mm on it.

I put a 12-20mm Samsung on my NX300 and it's pretty damn good too.

For me, the difference is more in the firmware/software these days. How it interprets what the lens throws at the sensor seems to make a huge difference, even though RAW is selected.  There seems to have been some major strides in either lens quality or the combination of firmware/lens technology lately.

GM Photography wrote:

I'd be happy to try one out.  There isn't anything to try out yet, so all I was doing is speculating based on the limited information available from some reviewers that have been given advance copies of the camera.

I still don't understand what you think I'm making excuses for.  Not buying something that I don't really want or need?  I have no fear of change.  I hope that Olympus is successful in replacing their DSLR line with mirrorless bodies and that they support their existing base of 4/3 users.  I'm not sure they're there yet.  Time will tell.

Try the OM-D E-M5...not a huge difference..amounts to 1 stop of performance, phase detection and a few other bits. Personally I think the only real performance measure is AF, ISO 800-3200, viewfinder accuracy. Better yet...try the Panasonic GH3.

Leighthenubian wrote:

Try the OM-D E-M5...not a huge difference..amounts to 1 stop of performance, phase detection and a few other bits. Personally I think the only real performance measure is AF, ISO 800-3200, viewfinder accuracy. Better yet...try the Panasonic GH3.

Handling is pretty important too.  The E-M5 does not AF well with most legacy 4/3 lenses, that is already a known issue.  The appeal of the E-M1 is its promise of being able to use 4/3 lenses on a m4/3 body.  I hope it lives up to it.

GM Photography wrote:

Handling is pretty important too.  The E-M5 does not AF well with most legacy 4/3 lenses, that is already a known issue.  The appeal of the E-M1 is its promise of being able to use 4/3 lenses on a m4/3 body.  I hope it lives up to it.

The 4/3's is on the way out...I don't think that's gonna change for the time being. The M 4/3 is an entirely new platform..

Pre-ordered one since OLY doesn't provide pro "Canadian" photographers with evaluation copies.

Hopefully it arrives before I take off for Belize. I want to go completely mirror-less for a resort shoot next month.

Leighthenubian wrote:

The 4/3's is on the way out...I don't think that's gonna change for the time being. The M 4/3 is an entirely new platform..

Pre-ordered one since OLY doesn't provide pro "Canadian" photographers with evaluation copies.

Hopefully it arrives before I take off for Belize. I want to go completely mirror-less for a resort shoot next month.

I don't think there will be another 4/3 body, so I do hope they get it "right" in terms of AF performance with legacy 4/3 lenses.  I'll look forward to hearing how you like the E-M1.

Leighthenubian wrote:

Try the OM-D E-M5...not a huge difference..amounts to 1 stop of performance, phase detection and a few other bits. Personally I think the only real performance measure is AF, ISO 800-3200, viewfinder accuracy. Better yet...try the Panasonic GH3.

My buddy who has the new OMD told me last night it is NOT just a reworked E-M5. This camera is entirely new and can't really be compared to the E-M5. On paper they may seem a lot alike he said. But the new OMD is awesome. The new viewfinder is a huge improvement. Full magnesium body now. More options to assign buttons and a scroll feature to set multiple uses for each button and you can switch quickly to make the button do something else.  I can't even remember everything he said other than it's " the best camera he has EVER used"  Oh and the WIFI is new and works awesome, also can control flashes with it. Wish I could think of more  lol

GM Photography wrote:

As an Olympus 4/3 user, I can tell you there is a lot of pent up demand for a new "pro" body, especially for those of us that have invested a lot in their glass, but I'm not sure this fits the bill for me.  It's pretty spendy and there are conflicting reports about how well the legacy glass works with the adapter for this body.  Even though most Olympus glass is smaller than the FF equivalents, I do have a couple of really big and heavy lenses and I think they'd be pretty awkward on a body that small.  I also don't really consider it a "pro" body when they include gimmicky stuff like "art filters".  I'm taking a wait and see attitude.  I'd like to try one out with some of my lenses though...

I'm going to have to agree with you, although I could care less about the art filters which I probably will never use. I'm more concern about AF as you mentioned, along with lack of a dual card slot, lack of additional battery in grip, lack of up to date video specs, lack of fully articulating LCD, and a few other things that escape me atm.

Also, I'm still not sold on the EVF being better than an OVF at this point in time...maybe a few years down the road it may be. Of course, I'll reserve final judgment until I test it out on this camera.

Size and balance is also important to me. I might be able to overlook this aspect with the grip attached but really won't know until I have it in my hands.

Now this camera does have some features that I do like but it still doesn't outweigh the cons (for me) that I previously listed. Maybe the next generation EM-2 will address the shortcomings of the EM-1 but I don't think I can wait another 3 years as that seems to be their upgrade cycle for their "pro" cameras.

So I think a few of us 4/3 users may be at a crossroads...wonder if Canon or Nikon will offer a group deal if we switch over!

Jay2G Photography wrote:

My buddy who has the new OMD told me last night it is NOT just a reworked E-M5. This camera is entirely new and can't really be compared to the E-M5. On paper they may seem a lot alike he said. But the new OMD is awesome. The new viewfinder is a huge improvement. Full magnesium body now. More options to assign buttons and a scroll feature to set multiple uses for each button and you can switch quickly to make the button do something else.  I can't even remember everything he said other than it's " the best camera he has EVER used"  Oh and the WIFI is new and works awesome, also can control flashes with it. Wish I could think of more  lol

All that would be a pleasant surprise...I always hate when the new camera smell wears off and all the stuff they didn't get right slaps you in the face.

Virtual Studio wrote:

Everyone's sales are down. It's tough out there. People are broke.

As a 4/3rds shooter this is why I'm sitting on the fence despite Olympus' new rig. I'm hoping by the time I have the money (mid to late 2014) a new/updated GH3 or OM-D E-M1  is available.

FBY1K

PhotographybyT wrote:

GM Photography wrote:
So I think a few of us 4/3 users may be at a crossroads...wonder if Canon or Nikon will offer a group deal if we switch over!

As an E-300 shooter I'm considering it when I do make my next camera purchase.

FBY1K

FBY1K wrote:

PhotographybyT wrote:

GM Photography wrote:
So I think a few of us 4/3 users may be at a crossroads...wonder if Canon or Nikon will offer a group deal if we switch over!

As an E-300 shooter I'm considering it when I do make my next camera purchase.

FBY1K

You misquoted that.  I didn't say that.

Leighthenubian wrote:
Tried it out for a bit tonight...looking really good in conjunction with the new 12-40 F/2.8 glass attached.

AF was near instant, built like a tank, nice EVF and LCD....wasn't allowed to insert a SD card though. Pre-production sample.

Your buddies over at panasonic know how to do it right, they hand you a 4GB card for you to keep and let you play with it for the day. I went back 2 more days to play with their other cameras and set to buy a LUMIX FZ70K and extender for 2040mm lens. they just ask you to tag a few pics on twitter with lumixusa

Yingwah Productions wrote:

Your buddies over at panasonic know how to do it right, they hand you a 4GB card for you to keep and let you play with it for the day. I went back 2 more days to play with their other cameras and set to buy a LUMIX FZ70K and extender for 2040mm lens. they just ask you to tag a few pics on twitter with lumixusa

Ya...we got juiced.