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first2345
Photographer
Kyle T Edwards
Posts: 419
St Catharines, Ontario, Canada


I ended up going the other way on Saturday.  I did a shoot with Selena Marie 21 (photographers, book her if you get the chance.  She's worth every penny!).  I had to fight to give her extra.  I had booked her until the end of that hour but we wound it up on the half; that was my call, not hers, so I wanted to pay her until the end of the hour, rather than until when we actually stopped shooting.  She was determined that she owed me change since we did stop early (we ended up splitting the gap).  Plus, since she was such a good model, I gave her some extra.  She made my job infinitely easier that day, so I felt it was only fair.

As for people who try to undercut, it's easy: sign the shoot agreement beforehand, and the model release after the money's in your hand.  I get that 99.99% of us aren't rolling in dough, but that's no reason to try to screw the other side over.  After all, without one side, the other won't have much work.
Sep 17 13 06:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KU LLC
Posts: 267
Dallas, Texas, US


It's too bad that Model Mayhem can't add an anonymous rating system.  If a shoot is booked both parties confirm they are shooting prior to the actual shoot.  Then once the date passes, both parties can rate the other.  If the model or photographer was a NO SHOW then it would disqualify the other's rating.  I think there would be some abuse, but overall it would probably be a way to show who are the more professional people on the site.

Again, this wouldn't be a specific rating, but an average rating from all people responding.

Just a thought.
Sep 17 13 07:03 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Kelleth
Posts: 2,511
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I've never ever had that happen.

But if someone tried to haggle the rate AFTER the shoot, I'd just say "I'm sorry but X is the rate we agreed on." End of discussion.

That's annoying though!
Sep 18 13 08:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
HO Photo
Posts: 515
Los Angeles, California, US


That sucks, I can't imagine doing this to someone. From the photographer's side... I at least have images in hand. I don't get paid, they don't get photos. For a model... ouch.
Sep 30 13 09:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Happy Guy Photos
Posts: 1,124
Upland, California, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Can I take a moment to vent about photographers who try to haggle my rate AFTER the shoot?

It happened to me twice last week. It's so F'ing stressful. I get that some people are on a tight budget, but that's something to think about  BEFORE booking me for a shoot. I don't understand people who say "ok I can pay $X per hour" but then at the end of the shoot ask for a "break". If you couldn't pay my rate, don't hire me! Or negotiate with me prior to shooting!

Sorry for all the negativity guys. This just has been really pissing me off.

Models, please tell me I'm not alone here.

*Edit*- a lot of folks are asking if/telling me to check references, so I thought I should point out that I reference and vet the hell out of all of the photographers I work with. I don't work with anyone who can't provide an absolute minimum of 3 model references (though I prefer more). I also check out the rest of their internet presence (google, facebook, etc.) very thoroughly.

Hey, we finally have something that we agree with.

That has happened to me with several models. We agreed to the compensation, then they try to renegotiate the compensation at the end of the shoot.

No excuse for that.

(aka: Bare Essential Photos)

Sep 30 13 09:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Promotional Genius
Posts: 11
New York, New York, US


There will always be problems!  Some cannot be solved & we have to live with them.  One problem is the unprofessional, rude, irritating, insane, whaked-out behavior of people - regarding both sides of the camera.
Now if you ask to be paid AHEAD OF TIME I DO NOT KNOW ANY PHOTOGRAPHER WHO WOULD BE WILLING TO DO IT!  No one - including me.
There is also the problem of you are female - he is male.  If you are too bossy, insistent, or authoritative in getting what you want, how do you know the male will not go off on you, threaten you or even strike you?  Personal safety is always an issue when it comes to female-with-male.
I think the best idea here is you have to be polite but firm.  You must insist there is no negotiation, it is over, he has to pay what is promised.  If he refuses, you have to lose the money.
The thing is, if you have leverage, like someone who will go after him - a lawyer, a husband, some guy who will strong-arm him, then saying that will be extremely unpleasant, won't it?
You have to try & get the money, but if you can't - get what you can, & consider it a loss.
When I was a dancer, a couple times, the owners refused to pay me, at the end of the day or week!  Sometimes they cheat you out of a day or two, sometimes more.  Sometimes you lose the money, sometimes the agent threatens them & they cough it up,  sometimes you get part of it.  After a few incidents, I got a contract that said, "PAID BY THE DAY IN CASH."  And they had to follow the contract, since I was a star--it's different being a star than being a "house girl."
I have had all kinds of problems with models WITH THEFT - theft of  clothing, theft of money.
Sometimes I got the money back (once) but most of the time, I lost it.
That's life.  I never get the clothing back.  Hahahahaha.  It is an occupational hazard, THERE ARE ALWAYS LOSSES IN BUSINESS!
Try to make up for the losses on other jobs!
Sep 30 13 10:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Promotional Genius
Posts: 11
New York, New York, US


and of course if he refuses to pay you properly, TELL HIM YOU WILL NOT SIGN THE MODEL RELEASE.  He CANNOT USE THE PICS FOR ANYTHING LIKE PUBLICATIONS, MM---without a model release.
Sep 30 13 10:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shaun Guckian
Posts: 81
Los Angeles, California, US


That's because people are just cheap and hagglers in general...

To be fair I paid for a model once... When she showed up she looked nothing like what I expected (STOP LYING ABOUT YOUR WEIGHT MODELS) and didn't think she was worth the money at all, but since I agreed to pay a set price - I did...
Oct 01 13 02:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photographe
Posts: 2,350
Bristol, England, United Kingdom


Get an agreement during messaging or e-mail communication, it's an agreement, anything else is contrary to that agreement and that works both ways.
Oct 01 13 06:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ujmag PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 2
Dixon, Illinois, US


Tommy Macabre wrote:
Good suggestions. I'm curious as to how many photographers would be ok with paying models before the shooting begins? Just seems like common practice to pay after.

I do all my haggling beforehand. once we have set a price that is what I pay and I always pay at the start because I dont want them wondering about. Works fine for me and if i go over i pay up at the end. I have even had models tell me not to worry about it after going over a half hour or so.

Oct 22 13 08:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ujmag PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 2
Dixon, Illinois, US


Tommy Macabre wrote:
Good suggestions. I'm curious as to how many photographers would be ok with paying models before the shooting begins? Just seems like common practice to pay after.

I do all my haggling beforehand. once we have set a price that is what I pay and I always pay at the start because I dont want them wondering about. Works fine for me and if i go over i pay up at the end. I have even had models tell me not to worry about it after going over a half hour or so.

I am new to shooting with models; however, it seems most beneficial that we schedule time to check IDs (I offer mine also to show I am who I say I am), sign contracts, discuss what we are shooting, and pay for the expected time prior to shooting.  Makes for a good start and everyone is happy.  Any haggling should be done prior to meeting for a shoot.  If I can't take someone on their word; contract or not, I don't care to work with them.

Oct 22 13 08:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AD Leckemby
Posts: 359
Early, Texas, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

Good suggestions. I'm curious as to how many photographers would be ok with paying models before the shooting begins? Just seems like common practice to pay after.

I pay before the shoot. I get paid before the shoot. It's just easier.

Oct 22 13 09:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 1,230
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


J O H N  A L L A N wrote:

Unfortunately, that's poor advice. I for one, would never hire a model who demanded to be paid up front.

I agree comPletely. Pay the agreed upon rate. If her rate is too high than the marketplace will impact her bookings and the rates will drop.

Again it's one thing to pay a model if everyone is getting paid but that something else if only the model gets to be paid. 

What is the recourse for a photographer who is paying a model the mythic 100 per hour and she is just phoning it in and not give 100% of her skills and effort. 

I mostly stick with TF for my fine art work.  When I do pay they get what is agreed upon that's it. They also receive no images from me.

Oct 22 13 11:12 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,015
New York, New York, US


FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
here's a suggestion...(this is what I do) my last email before a shoot to a model includes the location address, my contact information and the pay rate. I ask for a confirmation email in return. If she "forgets" and decides to try to renegotiate, I simply can forward a copy of the email or print it and show it to her.

An easy step to take and about as close to a fail-safe solution as possible, IMHO.  Thank you!

I do the same thing, but I include a precise of our conversation/agreement, including all significant details such as goal of the shoot, anticipated degree of nudity (if any) and anything else that might in any way debatable.  I send this immediately after the initial agreement (obviously not first contact) and include it in all subsequent contacts.

http://www.jayleavitt.com/links/guide_forum_llama.gif
  RAYS FINE ART
--FORUM GUIDE--

Oct 22 13 11:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jim McSmith
Posts: 762
Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom


I like to do it after the shoot to see if I can knock of 10 or 20 bucks to help cover transport costs to the studio and back. If you don't ask you don't get and in these tough trading conditions every cent counts.
Oct 22 13 12:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
fussgangerfoto
Posts: 149
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


I can't imagine renegotiating the terms after the shoot unless something made one party or the other not fulfill their part of the contract (e.g., model was late, got sick, or we decided to shoot longer). 

I've had models that were a struggle to work with, but they still got paid. I may not use them again, but the deal was $/hour not $ based on results.

I think there are better places to pinch pennies than trying to shortchange some poor girl trying to live off her modeling assignments. A deal's a deal in my book.
Oct 26 13 08:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
imcFOTO
Posts: 579
Bothell, Washington, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

The thing is though, it's not a matter of forgetting. I make it very clear what my rate is and confirm that the photographer is ok with that every time, so the paper trail is there. It's then after the shoot that they said "so can I pay this much instead?" knowing full well what we agreed upon for a rate.

Of course, when I say no, and that I expect to be paid in full, the excuses as to why they can't pay me for some reason start coming. Like I said, things to think about before the shoot. Sigh...

It sounds kinda cheap to suggest, but maybe you should ask for the payment or at least confirm it before you actually start the shoot. No guarantee of course but at least you have the conversation before you start work. If the photographer tries to haggle then - well you have the choice of walking away. Do not get taken hostage if you don't get a good vibe from the photographer.

And while you can't really 'out' the photographer - you can of course list them on your profile as someone you would not work with again.

Oct 27 13 12:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
255 West
Posts: 6,468
New York, New York, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Can I take a moment to vent about photographers who try to haggle my rate AFTER the shoot?

It happened to me twice last week. It's so F'ing stressful. I get that some people are on a tight budget, but that's something to think about  BEFORE booking me for a shoot. I don't understand people who say "ok I can pay $X per hour" but then at the end of the shoot ask for a "break". If you couldn't pay my rate, don't hire me! Or negotiate with me prior to shooting!

1)Clarify the terms before the shoot -- assume nothing, EVER, and
2)learn to say "no".

Oct 27 13 01:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
imcFOTO
Posts: 579
Bothell, Washington, US


Jim McSmith wrote:
I like to do it after the shoot to see if I can knock of 10 or 20 bucks to help cover transport costs to the studio and back. If you don't ask you don't get and in these tough trading conditions every cent counts.

Sorry but sounds kinda cheap. You make a deal and stick to it. You really risk a bad reputation for the sake of 10 or 20 bucks? How about if models waited till they were about to get undressed and then asked for an extra $20 for gas?

Oct 27 13 02:05 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 951
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


imcFOTO wrote:

It sounds kinda cheap to suggest, but maybe you should ask for the payment or at least confirm it before you actually start the shoot. No guarantee of course but at least you have the conversation before you start work. If the photographer tries to haggle then - well you have the choice of walking away. Do not get taken hostage if you don't get a good vibe from the photographer.

And while you can't really 'out' the photographer - you can of course list them on your profile as someone you would not work with again.

I don't mean to change the subject, but I'm not a fan of using do not recommend lists for this kind of thing. Yeah, these photographers were pains in the behind, but they didn't compromise my safety. I think DNR's should be reserved only for those who do something predatory.

Oct 27 13 09:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Blackschleger
Posts: 3
Irvine, California, US


My method is always to verify
1) what the shoot will be about and to what comfort level (so people don't haggle for more or less during shoot. If she says no nudity - don't ask for nudity. Or anything else for that matter that wasn't discussed.
2) the location with proper address and directions once there about what door to enter, who to speak with, etc. They shouldn't feel lost.
3) Show her the payment - and put it down somewhere where she can see it. She knows it will be there for pick up when she leaves. Normally if it's cash I'll put it on a table. I like the envelope idea some one mentioned I think I'll use that.
I myself would never pay a model up front to put it in her pocket and walk out because the shoot didn't go her way - it's on the side - away from both of you and business can go ahead accordingly.

Communication is key.
Seriously that is really crappy to go out of your way to take photos and a photographer screw you over sad sorry to hear.
Nov 01 13 04:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
eekimelphoto
Posts: 867
Longboat Key, Florida, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Can I take a moment to vent about photographers who try to haggle my rate AFTER the shoot?

It happened to me twice last week. It's so F'ing stressful. I get that some people are on a tight budget, but that's something to think about  BEFORE booking me for a shoot....

Reads like you hit on a key division between photographers (professional or advanced amateur) and GWCs. If one is approaching things professionally you budget accordingly (just like equipment prep) and it's a non-issue.

GWC ... if any of those people read this far, they can fill in the blank with their rationale for breaking a contract.

Nov 01 13 04:21 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 951
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


eekimelphoto wrote:

Reads like you hit on a key division between photographers (professional or advanced amateur) and GWCs. If one is approaching things professionally you budget accordingly (just like equipment prep) and it's a non-issue.

GWC ... if any of those people read this far, they can fill in the blank with their rationale for breaking a contract.

By "GWC" do you mean a general hobbyist? Because I've shot with plenty of them without a problem. Even the guys who are clearly taking photos of naked girls to get their jollies have been fine the vast majority of the time in my experience.

In fact, one of the guys who haggled me in this case was an industry professional with a solid portfolio.

IMO, a person's skill level and professional status make no difference. You can be a great photographer and still be a total dick.

Nov 01 13 01:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


Dicks are gonna be dicks.  Sadly, there is no cure for the dickhead syndrome.

Some have suggested that you ask for the pay up front.  I personally only do TF shoots (with one exception) and plan on sticking to that.  The reason being that, in a TF situation, the model has nothing to gain but good photos, which provides a good incentive for them to do their best during the shoot.  When pay is involved, there's a good chance that the model is really only in it for the money, and so for some, once they have the money in hand, they cease to give a shit about the shoot and are likely to not try very hard.  I know this isn't true with all models, but even with just some being like this, it creates a risk to the photographer.  Enough of a risk that I can see why they'd be unwilling to pay up front.
Nov 01 13 02:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
m_s_photo
Posts: 601
Port Moody, British Columbia, Canada


eekimelphoto wrote:
Reads like you hit on a key division between photographers (professional or advanced amateur) and GWCs. If one is approaching things professionally you budget accordingly (just like equipment prep) and it's a non-issue.

GWC ... if any of those people read this far, they can fill in the blank with their rationale for breaking a contract.

I resemble that remark, but I pay my models the rate I quote. Haggling is for dickheads, and they come in both amateur and professional categories.

Nov 01 13 02:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 951
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


R Byron Johnson wrote:
When pay is involved, there's a good chance that the model is really only in it for the money...

Right, because models, especially freelance art models, make SO much money!

Nov 01 13 11:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Big A-Larger Than Life
Posts: 33,407
The Woodlands, Texas, US


P I X I E wrote:
Never happened to me. If anything, I had the opposite happen to me.

Yeah same here a lot of photographers are really nice and add an extra 1-200 bucks more than we agreed on at the end of the shoot.  AND usually comp a meal too afterward.  All the ones I can think of off the top of my head have been super nice.

Nov 02 13 05:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Big A-Larger Than Life
Posts: 33,407
The Woodlands, Texas, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

Right, because models, especially freelance art models, make SO much money!

Yeah bc most of the world just does their job purely out of the goodness of their hearts lol

Nov 02 13 05:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Frank McDonough
Posts: 145
Boston, Massachusetts, US


I've never paid an hourly rate , ever and never will. I pay a flat fee for the photo shoot. We figure out approx. how long the shoot will take and what we're doing. I offer an amount for compensation. if the model agrees then we move forward and book a shoot. What this does is takes all the BS out of the way. if the model wants to chat for a half hour or make a phone call, no worries. I just think it makes everything easier.
Nov 02 13 05:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

Right, because models, especially freelance art models, make SO much money!

"In it for the money" doesn't mean in it to get rich.  Extra money is often a motive.  That doesn't mean that every model who does it for the money is bad at it, but some (keyword SOME) are.  Enough so that I can see why paying a model up front would be too much of a risk.

Next time, read my entire response rather than cherrypicking one line out of context.

Nov 02 13 05:53 pm  Link  Quote 
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