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Photographer
RingoJ66
Posts: 149
Los Angeles, California, US


When you see a model post edited pictures of the finished ones you sent to her, do you feel like she's saying she didn't like your work? I have two models do this, and they they say they'd be glad to work with me again, I get insecure when I see edited work of mine. Honestly, their edits often look better than mines. No shame in this, I guess...
Sep 10 13 12:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
GQ The Couture Model
Posts: 316
Seattle, Washington, US


You are in an odd situation thanks to advances in computer technology but this is not the first time I have heard this.
Sep 10 13 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
James Scolari
Posts: 81
Los Angeles, California, US


You should have a clear understanding with them when you provide imagery, whether they have rights to edit, or not.

Technically, they should not be altering your work without rights/permission to do so.
Sep 10 13 12:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
sweet gamine
Posts: 380
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Sure, they'd be glad to work with you again; they can alter your finished work and violate copyright.

If you prefer their retouching of your already retouched work, then by all means, work out an agreement with them. That is between you and the models you shoot with.

"When you see a model post edited pictures of the finished ones you sent to her, do you feel like she's saying she didn't like your work?"

No. If she doesn't like my work, she shouldn't be shooting with me.
I see that she is either uneducated on the subject (although after reading and being told my policies again in person, she has no reason to be uneducated)  - or at worst, she is disrespectful with no regard for the work of other artists and no regard for the law.
Sep 10 13 12:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,620
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


I've had one model post a copy of our work that someone besides myself edited. I simply asked her to re-read the copy of the model release she had signed that stated that such editing was a violation of our contract. Problem solved.
Sep 10 13 12:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,918
Port Townsend, Washington, US


i've seen it happen to other photographers' works. and i cringe when i see that. there seems to be an underlying idea that if the photo is of me then i can do what i want with it. i can understand that feeling, but it isn't one that should be acted upon without consultation and permission.
Sep 10 13 12:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Erlinda
Posts: 7,036
London, England, United Kingdom


I had a model do that to my work when I first started out and her edits weren't better then mine. So I told her to take them down and she did, she asked to work with me again. I said thanks but no thanks.

Aint nobody retouching my photos but ME. big_smile
Sep 10 13 12:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2,309
New York, New York, US


RingoJ66 wrote:
When you see a model post edited pictures of the finished ones you sent to her, do you feel like she's saying she didn't like your work? I have two models do this, and they they say they'd be glad to work with me again, I get insecure when I see edited work of mine. Honestly, their edits often look better than mines. No shame in this, I guess...

If I saw a model post "edited pictures of the finished ones [i] sent to her", I would feel surprised more than anything else.

Unless, of course, the whole point of the shoot was to create material for her to retouch. Regardless of whether she is learning, practicing, or is a Wizard, the right to create derivatives of an original image has to be agreed upon in advance.

Not "discovered."

The idea that people should arbitrarily decide to modify work given to them by photographers is more ignorance than anything else.

On the topic of working again with someone that does that freely without asking...Probably not.

Sep 10 13 12:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shilo Von Porcelaine
Posts: 215
Chicago, Illinois, US


I'm going to be honest, I've been guilty of editing photos.

If someone takes the time to edit them well, fair enough. However, I've been sent lackluster unedited photos or worse, raw photos and never received edits months after they had been promised.

That is when I think it's acceptable to edit photos. However, I always make a point to ask the photographer first and let them know that I want to use the images and if they don't have the time to edit them, I have a background in Photoshop and can do it myself. And then I credit myself as the retoucher.

Otherwise, yes, it is disrespectful. But then it's also pretty disrespectful to keep someone waiting months for edits if you told them otherwise.
Sep 10 13 12:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Adam J Caldwell
Posts: 289
London, England, United Kingdom


How about when you send them the edits & then they use the PROOFS in their port instead.

Had a model to that to me recently, she was obviously on acid.

Quite clearly not working with her again.
Sep 10 13 12:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2,309
New York, New York, US


nyk fury wrote:
i've seen it happen to other photographers' works. and i cringe when i see that. there seems to be an underlying idea that if the photo is of me then i can do what i want with it. i can understand that feeling, but it isn't one that should be acted upon without consultation and permission.

It's the Internet-Age Old dilemma between Privacy and Ownership.

Both topics deal with controlling the publication of an image, and people assume they are interchangeable.

Sep 10 13 01:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2,309
New York, New York, US


Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
I'm going to be honest, I've been guilty of editing photos.

If someone takes the time to edit them well, fair enough. However, I've been sent lackluster unedited photos or worse, raw photos and never received edits months after they had been promised.

That is when I think it's acceptable to edit photos. However, I always make a point to ask the photographer first and let them know that I want to use the images and if they don't have the time to edit them, I have a background in Photoshop and can do it myself. And then I credit myself as the retoucher.
...

Asking the photographer (and getting permission) makes it acceptable.
Getting crappy photos does not, and feeling entitled to fix them does not.

Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
Otherwise, yes, it is disrespectful. But then it's also pretty disrespectful to keep someone waiting months for edits if you told them otherwise.

"Two wrongs don't make a right."

Sep 10 13 01:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Miss Morbid Kitty
Posts: 88
Orangeville, Ontario, Canada


I am a model, and I love photoshop. So when I do a TFCD shoot, I always show the photographer my past digital work and ask permission to use their photos in photoshop. If they agree then we write something into the contract saying I can edit them, and sometimes, to show the edited photos to the photog before I publish them online or whatever I plan to do with them. In these cases if one of us wants to make money off the edited images we add something in the contract about profits from edited photos being split 50-50.

If the photographer doesn't want me to touch the pics at all, I get it that's cool. Hands off.

If I'm doing a paid shoot- I usually don't even ask, and leave the photos alone completely.

Sometimes I'll ask after the shoot if we can do one or two poses for me to edit into ______ if I'm inspired by something during the shoot and have a concrete plan of what I want to do to explain to them...and again this is only if I feel the photographer is enjoying working with me and would be comfortable sharing the credit for even a photo or two....you can read that in a person, and not all photographers have that! smile


However more models are being encouraged to learn photo editing programs nowadays and not being fully informed on the repercussions of editing a photo just because you happen to be in it. I suggest you put something in the contract about 'may not alter photo at all' if you don't want the models editing the photos,and if you do, (even if it's just for tf shoots) it's usually best to keep it collaborative and say that all edited photos must be approved by both parties and any profits made from model-edited photos will be split 50-50, or simply no monetary gain can be made from model edited photos.

I'm for everyone learning photo-editing but I'm also for lots and lots of communication before during and after the shoot! (and of course a contract!) smile

Best of luck!


EDIT- just because I admit to loving photoshop does not mean I have ever edited a photo without permission. If I don't like a photo I got, I won't edit it, won't even crop it, if editing wasn't in the original contract. I simply won't share those photos myself, and they get stashed in the back of my mind as one of the not-so-awesome shoots....it happens!
Sep 10 13 01:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,918
Port Townsend, Washington, US


MnPhoto wrote:
It's the Internet-Age Old dilemma between Privacy and Ownership.

Both topics deal with controlling the publication of an image, therefore people assume they are interchangeable.

i believe 'publication' is the key word here. you post something somewhere on the internet: that is publication. you stick a picture on your wall: that is not. i have altered the images of others many times: when formatting them for physical reference files. then, i will often edit them the way i edit my own stuff. those end up on 5X7s in folios. don't bother much with that sort of thing anymore, but do still have a thousand or so remaining on the shelf. only my collaborator ever sees any of those. i don't see anything wrong with that.

Sep 10 13 01:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2,309
New York, New York, US


Miss Morbid Kitty wrote:
I am a model, and I love photoshop. So when I do a TFCD shoot, I always show the photographer my past digital work and ask permission to use their photos in photoshop. If they agree then we write something into the contract saying I can edit them, and sometimes, to show the edited photos to the photog before I publish them online or whatever I plan to do with them. In these cases if one of us wants to make money off the edited images we add something in the contract about profits from edited photos being split 50-50.

If the photographer doesn't want me to touch the pics at all, I get it that's cool. Hands off.

If I'm doing a paid shoot- I usually don't even ask, and leave the photos alone completely.

Sometimes I'll ask after the shoot if we can do one or two poses for me to edit into ______ if I'm inspired by something during the shoot and have a concrete plan of what I want to do to explain to them...and again this is only if I feel the photographer is enjoying working with me and would be comfortable sharing the credit for even a photo or two....you can read that in a person, and not all photographers have that! smile


However more models are being encouraged to learn photo editing programs nowadays and not being fully informed on the repercussions of editing a photo just because you happen to be in it. I suggest you put something in the contract about 'may not alter photo at all' if you don't want the models editing the photos,and if you do, (even if it's just for tf shoots) it's usually best to keep it collaborative and say that all edited photos must be approved by both parties and any profits made from model-edited photos will be split 50-50, or simply no monetary gain can be made from model edited photos.

I'm for everyone learning photo-editing but I'm also for lots and lots of communication before during and after the shoot! (and of course a contract!) smile

Best of luck!

This is the problem with going online at the airport. You always get caught responding to comments from people that feel they are being helpful. "What works for me", may not always be legal.

I disagree wholeheartedly with this kind of transaction. If one party (or both) intend to make money off a session, then the normal business model is to:

Hire the model (paid modeling), and photographer sells the photos.
Hire the photographer for a commissioned, "work-for-hire" job, then the client sells photos.

These types of arrangements where material derived from a "TFCD" is sold, is the very reason these blurred lines of ownership exist.

The only person selling the photos should be the person that OWNS the copyright, and in most cases that would be the photographer (except: in  "work-for-hire" situations).

If a model is caught selling photos without legal ownership, then she is quite literally "hocking stolen goods."

Sep 10 13 01:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,270
Salem, Oregon, US


i don't worry about what happens after the images leave my hands. problem solved. some models are also pretty good at retouching (not to mention photography, MUA'ing, etc.)
Sep 10 13 01:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RTE Photography
Posts: 929
NORTH HOLLYWOOD, California, US


My model release says that models are not permitted to alter any photos that they are given except for cropping. I am old school going back to film days when of course they got prints and had no chance to do anything to them.
If they are not happy with my terms, they are quite free to go with another photographer. The shots I produce are part of my vision and that is what they are getting when they agree to work with me.
Sep 10 13 01:17 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,999
New York, New York, US


I've shot with several models who are quite expert with Photoshop and have my unlimited approval to do their own edits.  They always let me know and send me copies for my own portfolio.  They also agree to take down their edits if I so request, which I'm happy to say I've never had reason to do.  But if anyone did that without asking first, I'd point out to them that it's a violation of copyright and could subject them to substantial penalties and I direct them to http://www.copyright.gov/.  Most models don't know this and are only too happy to comply once they are informed.

It frankly wouldn't be worth the time, effort and money to involve an attorney, so if I ever had a case where this wasn't enough, I'd just walk away from them and if asked for a reference (which we photographers don't do often enough, IMHO) warn the photographer.
Sep 10 13 01:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photo Artistic Savannah
Posts: 14
Savannah, Georgia, US


RingoJ66 wrote:
When you see a model post edited pictures of the finished ones you sent to her, do you feel like she's saying she didn't like your work? I have two models do this, and they they say they'd be glad to work with me again, I get insecure when I see edited work of mine. Honestly, their edits often look better than mines. No shame in this, I guess...

my usage license agreement, which both the model and I sign, specifically prohibits the model doing this.  If you ask and they don't stop, a letter from your attorney will normally get the job done.

Sep 10 13 01:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J Millman Photography
Posts: 196
Norwich, England, United Kingdom


I've had one model on here edit my finished work, she increased the saturation to the point that it looked hideous!
I decided not to say anything due to the fact that at least my version looked good, and anyone looking at her version couldn't know that I had done it, but I wasn't happy.

I also refused to work with one model who insisted on having the raw files if we did a shoot, she said that she was more than capable of photoshopping an image.
That may be so, but I didn't like the idea at all!
Sep 10 13 01:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2,309
New York, New York, US


Rays Fine Art wrote:
I've shot with several models who are quite expert with Photoshop and have my unlimited approval to do their own edits.  They always let me know and send me copies for my own portfolio.  They also agree to take down their edits if I so request, which I'm happy to say I've never had reason to do.  But if anyone did that without asking first, I'd point out to them that it's a violation of copyright and could subject them to substantial penalties and I direct them to http://www.copyright.gov/.  Most models don't know this and are only too happy to comply once they are informed.

It frankly wouldn't be worth the time, effort and money to involve an attorney, so if I ever had a case where this wasn't enough, I'd just walk away from them and if asked for a reference (which we photographers don't do often enough, IMHO) warn the photographer.

I am glad you wrote this, because people throw around the term "take down" as if were the ultimate solution.

Just because someone removes a photo from a website, there is absolutely no guarantee that it is not floating around all over the Internet (stored on people's computers or in a search engine's cache). Sounds like a cliché, but the best solution is to not post anything, unless you are absolutely sure you really really want to do it.

If you are not the one uploading the YOUR PHOTO, then making sure the model shows HER EDITS to your, PRIOR to publishing, works best.

J Millman Photography wrote:
I've had one model on here edit my finished work, she increased the saturation to the point that it looked hideous!
I decided not to say anything due to the fact that at least my version looked good, and anyone looking at her version couldn't know that I had done it, but I wasn't happy.

I also refused to work with one model who insisted on having the raw files if we did a shoot, she said that she was more than capable of photoshopping an image.
That may be so, but I didn't like the idea at all!

How would you feel, if you found out that the "hideous version" was the first (and only) version that people had seen of your work, prior to deciding to not work with you?

Sep 10 13 01:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,511
Belmont, California, US


RingoJ66 wrote:
When you see a model post edited pictures of the finished ones you sent to her, do you feel like she's saying she didn't like your work?

I try not to worry about what I imagine others are thinking.

RingoJ66 wrote:
I have two models do this, and they they say they'd be glad to work with me again, I get insecure when I see edited work of mine.

I'd work on these feelings of insecurity, otherwise they will drive you crazy.

RingoJ66 wrote:
Honestly, their edits often look better than mines.

This is the most important sentence in the OP. I suggest you reread it and try to figure out why.

RingoJ66 wrote:
No shame in this, I guess...

The beginning of a strong beautiful statement ruined by "I guess". There is, in fact, no shame in this at all. We all can't excel in everything. In fact, by wanting to work with you again, they are saying they think you're a photographer worth working with again. That speaks volumes about you! Good volumes! Own that.

I was going to suggest that if becoming a great retoucher is important to you, then spend the 10,000 hours it takes to become great, but that will always be secondary for me at least to being a great shutterbug. Plus, if you get that insecurity thing handled it won't bother you at all for others to do the retouching.

Sep 10 13 01:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Swank Photography
Posts: 18,995
Key West, Florida, US


RingoJ66 wrote:
When you see a model post edited pictures of the finished ones you sent to her, do you feel like she's saying she didn't like your work? I have two models do this, and they they say they'd be glad to work with me again, I get insecure when I see edited work of mine. Honestly, their edits often look better than mines. No shame in this, I guess...

That is why I have it in my releases that the model agrees NOT to alter the image in any way, shape or form!

Sep 10 13 01:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,788
Portland, Oregon, US


RingoJ66 wrote:
When you see a model post edited pictures of the finished ones you sent to her, do you feel like she's saying she didn't like your work? I have two models do this, and they they say they'd be glad to work with me again, I get insecure when I see edited work of mine. Honestly, their edits often look better than mines. No shame in this, I guess...

They should be tarred and feathered and then made to stand on a street corner with a sign that says "I edited the photographer's photos"



(Of course, if they have permission, that is a different matter.)

Sep 10 13 01:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Charlie-CNP
Posts: 2,604
New York, New York, US


OP: your call on what you do with YOUR work. If you like the models editing your work, then go for it. However, I personally would never let anyone short of an experienced retoucher or myself edit my work. It is your reputation as a photographer on the line, and anyone that works as a professional does not have random models editing their work.

Models: also be careful editing photographers work without permissions. Copyrights belong to the photographer, and anyone worth their salt will generally have terms set in their release that images may not be modified. If there is any question of wanting to edit an image, always ask your photographer first. good luck
Sep 10 13 01:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J Millman Photography
Posts: 196
Norwich, England, United Kingdom


MnPhoto wrote:

I am glad you wrote this, because people throw around the term "take down" as if were the ultimate solution.

Just because someone removes a photo from a website, there is absolutely no guarantee that it is not floating around all over the Internet (stored on people's computers or in a search engine's cache). Sounds like a cliché, but the best solution is to not post anything, unless you are absolutely sure you really really want to do it.

If you are not the one uploading the YOUR PHOTO, then making sure the model shows HER EDITS to your, PRIOR to publishing, works best.


How would you feel, if you found out that the "hideous version" was the first (and only) version that people had seen of your work, prior to deciding to not work with you?

Sep 10 13 01:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J Millman Photography
Posts: 196
Norwich, England, United Kingdom


Not very happy!...I guess I'll have to get the models to sign a contract from now on.
Sep 10 13 01:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dave McDermott
Posts: 265
Coill Dubh, Kildare, Ireland


It has only happened to me a few times and the edits looked atrocious afterwards. One time a model informed me that another photographer took one of her photos from her facebook page, edited it, and sent it to her. All he did was change the colour of the eyes.

She seemed concerned about this at first, even stating that it was in violation of copyright, which I acknowledged. Then she went ahead and used the photo as her facebook profile pic which annoyed me.

The main thing that would bother me, is if I watermarked the images and then somebody did a dodgy editing job and published the photos with my name on them. I wouldn't want people thinking I was responsible for the shitty retouching. In that case I would prefer if the photos were cropped so my watermark didn't show up on them. Don't even get me started on cropping out watermarks. That's another matter.
Sep 10 13 02:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kely Suicide
Posts: 3
Tampa, Florida, US


Here's the thing, and sorry if I offend anyone. Most photographers think they're good retouchers, and they're just not. They installed Photoshop, watched a bunch of Youtube tutorials, and send the model a few pictures with various blur filters applied to her skin.

When I shoot with a photographer, unless I know he has a formal education in graphic design and retouching, I don't even want him editing my shots. I'd rather have him send me raw shots so I can either edit them myself, or send them to someone who can do a professional job. If it's a TF situation then he's free to edit his copies as he sees fit, bit so am I. You will rarely find a great photographer who is also a great retoucher, and that goes the other way too. Pick something, specialize in it, and let other people do what they do best. That's my opinion.
Sep 10 13 02:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ThomasBlanchardFineArt
Posts: 218
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


This is the whole Instagram crap we deal with.   It should be clear in your agreement YOU own the rights to the image and NOTHING can be changed except by you ...or with your written amendment to said agreement.
Sep 10 13 02:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,407
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


Kely Suicide wrote:
... I don't even want him editing my shots. I'd rather have him send me raw shots so I can either edit them myself, ....

If you are good at retouching, feel free to propose, that, but your statement is based in the false assumption that they are your shots.  They are not, but are copyright by the photographer.  They are shots of you, which comes with a whole different set of rights than shots that are yours.

Sep 10 13 02:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,356
London, England, United Kingdom


RingoJ66 wrote:
Honestly, their edits often look better than mines.

Meh, if that were the case I'd just use their edits for my portfolio.

I can't see it bothering me.

Sep 10 13 02:39 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,999
New York, New York, US


MnPhoto wrote:
. . . . .How would you feel, if you found out that the "hideous version" was the first (and only) version that people had seen of your work, prior to deciding to not work with you?

Quite frankly, I'd wonder how he ever came to consider me in the first place without seeing any more of my work than that.  And since I prefer to not waste too much time with idiots, on that basis alone I'd probably refuse to have anything to do with him.

There are 15,164 other New York area photographers on MM at the moment.  It's not unreasonable to expect that at least half of them will work at my level or better.  That's at least 7,500 good reasons not to use me.  What's the percentage in worrying about one more bad reason?  It's all a matter of perspective, something we photographers are supposed to be good at.

All IMHO as always, of course.

Sep 10 13 05:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,620
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


Kely Suicide wrote:
Here's the thing, and sorry if I offend anyone. Most photographers think they're good retouchers, and they're just not. They installed Photoshop, watched a bunch of Youtube tutorials, and send the model a few pictures with various blur filters applied to her skin.

When I shoot with a photographer, unless I know he has a formal education in graphic design and retouching, I don't even want him editing my shots. I'd rather have him send me raw shots so I can either edit them myself, or send them to someone who can do a professional job. If it's a TF situation then he's free to edit his copies as he sees fit, bit so am I. You will rarely find a great photographer who is also a great retoucher, and that goes the other way too. Pick something, specialize in it, and let other people do what they do best. That's my opinion.

Just one question for ya. Do YOU have a formal education in graphic design and retouching?

Abbitt Photography wrote:
If you are good at retouching, feel free to propose, that, but your statement is based in the false assumption that they are your shots.  They are not, but are copyright by the photographer.  They are shots of you, which comes with a whole different set of rights than shots that are yours.

+1000

Sep 10 13 05:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
Tiffany_B
Posts: 1,319
Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, US


Kely Suicide wrote:
Here's the thing, and sorry if I offend anyone. Most photographers think they're good retouchers, and they're just not. They installed Photoshop, watched a bunch of Youtube tutorials, and send the model a few pictures with various blur filters applied to her skin.

When I shoot with a photographer, unless I know he has a formal education in graphic design and retouching, I don't even want him editing my shots. I'd rather have him send me raw shots so I can either edit them myself, or send them to someone who can do a professional job. If it's a TF situation then he's free to edit his copies as he sees fit, bit so am I. You will rarely find a great photographer who is also a great retoucher, and that goes the other way too. Pick something, specialize in it, and let other people do what they do best. That's my opinion.

I don't find this offensive but I do find a lot of if asinine.

Bill Gates doesn't have a formal education in terms of computer science and while I'm a Linux girl all the way I can't deny that there are aspects of what Microsoft does that that are brilliant, J.K. Rowling (you know the first person ever to become a billionaire off writing books) doesn't have some fancy creative writing degree and (more relevant to this conversation) I can't think of a single supermodel who went to school for it and I personally know some kick ass photographers who also do their own editing who never went to school for photography so you can be elitist if you want to but realize that it'll often be your loss not someone else's since skill (or lack thereof) isn't only evident in people with a degree.

Oh and by the way, they're not your shots, unless you play for the copyright.

OP: Ultimately you have to make the call of how you want to deal with this, if it offends you and you have a contract then enforce it but realize it'll only remove the image from where you know it's posted. Another solution may be to provide shots that are a smaller resolution and as such may prove harder for amateurs to edit. Good luck!

Sep 10 13 05:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Doug Jantz
Posts: 4,025
Tulsa, Oklahoma, US


James Scolari wrote:
You should have a clear understanding with them when you provide imagery, whether they have rights to edit, or not.

Technically, they should not be altering your work without rights/permission to do so.

With some it doesn't do any good.  I have made this plain and yet people will STILL crop and change photos.  In general people just don't care

Sep 10 13 05:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Doug Jantz
Posts: 4,025
Tulsa, Oklahoma, US


Kely Suicide wrote:
Here's the thing, and sorry if I offend anyone. Most photographers think they're good retouchers, and they're just not. They installed Photoshop, watched a bunch of Youtube tutorials, and send the model a few pictures with various blur filters applied to her skin.

When I shoot with a photographer, unless I know he has a formal education in graphic design and retouching, I don't even want him editing my shots. I'd rather have him send me raw shots so I can either edit them myself, or send them to someone who can do a professional job. If it's a TF situation then he's free to edit his copies as he sees fit, bit so am I. You will rarely find a great photographer who is also a great retoucher, and that goes the other way too. Pick something, specialize in it, and let other people do what they do best. That's my opinion.

*rolling eyes.  Rarely???  You must know thousands of photographers to make such an assumption.  I am going to stop shooting with "models" who don't have a formal education in posing. 

I can name many top photographers who are very well known today and are self taught who have prints hanging in the Smithsonian, such as Keith Carter. 

Moving on...

Sep 10 13 06:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
HWM Photography
Posts: 1,383
Chicago, Illinois, US


MnPhoto wrote:

Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
I'm going to be honest, I've been guilty of editing photos.

If someone takes the time to edit them well, fair enough. However, I've been sent lackluster unedited photos or worse, raw photos and never received edits months after they had been promised.

That is when I think it's acceptable to edit photos. However, I always make a point to ask the photographer first and let them know that I want to use the images and if they don't have the time to edit them, I have a background in Photoshop and can do it myself. And then I credit myself as the retoucher.
...

Asking the photographer (and getting permission) makes it acceptable.
Getting crappy photos does not, and feeling entitled to fix them does not.


"Two wrongs don't make a right."

That's the double truth.

Sep 10 13 06:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Al Lock Photography
Posts: 15,832
Bangkok, Bangkok, Thailand


Kely Suicide wrote:
Here's the thing, and sorry if I offend anyone. Most photographers think they're good retouchers, and they're just not. They installed Photoshop, watched a bunch of Youtube tutorials, and send the model a few pictures with various blur filters applied to her skin.

When I shoot with a photographer, unless I know he has a formal education in graphic design and retouching, I don't even want him editing my shots. I'd rather have him send me raw shots so I can either edit them myself, or send them to someone who can do a professional job. If it's a TF situation then he's free to edit his copies as he sees fit, bit so am I. You will rarely find a great photographer who is also a great retoucher, and that goes the other way too. Pick something, specialize in it, and let other people do what they do best. That's my opinion.

You don't intend to ever do any real work, do you?

To answer the OP's question...

If a model (or anyone else) posts photos of mine that have been edited by someone else, I send them a take-down notice and inform them that they have violated copyright.

Sep 10 13 07:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
T-D-L
Posts: 10,168
Los Angeles, California, US


If her edits are better than yours (as you state in the OP) then I wouldn't worry so much about models redoing my work....I'd be more concerned with improving that facet of my work to the point where models don't feel the need to change it.  Granted, you'll get the oddball that will do it anyway and run it through some instagram filter or something....but if you're saying their retouching is clearly better than yours then you already know the problem, and you can't really blame them for doing so (regardless of whether it's right or wrong) since they deserve to have photographs that benefit them and their books.
Sep 10 13 07:13 pm  Link  Quote 
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