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first12
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,584
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


afplcc wrote:
1.  Most professionals don't allow just anyone to show up at the shoot.  All of the examples you're mentioning have roles in the shoot.

+1.

Allowing employees or those involved in production and opening your doors to members of the public that are not a part of the production team are very different things.

Sep 11 13 06:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17,939
Los Angeles, California, US


afplcc wrote:

I think you're confusing a couple of elements here.

1.  Most professionals don't allow just anyone to show up at the shoot.

Luckily I am friends with tons of professional photographers and models, and the majority see nothing wrong with the model bringing an assistant to a shoot with them.

I would think it would be more important to have an assistant when shooting with a non professional because just by the name non professional we know they don't have any expectation of professional behavior.

Sep 11 13 08:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rudolph Uhlman Photo
Posts: 164
Pendleton, Oregon, US


Natural Means wrote:

I've done exhustive studies of this, so, keeping in mind that 87% of statistics are made up 67% of the time...

49% of photographers would sooner die in the hot firey depths of hell than tolerate an escort

38% of photographers won't shoot with escorts present

And

13% of photographers welcome escorts as useful assistants and lookouts.

Love your "Statistics."

Sep 11 13 09:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,584
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


Star wrote:

Luckily I am friends with tons of professional photographers and models, and the majority see nothing wrong with the model bringing an assistant to a shoot with them.

I would think it would be more important to have an assistant when shooting with a non professional because just by the name non professional we know they don't have any expectation of professional behavior.

I can't speak for afplcc, but I think you are still confusing a couple elements of his point.

Allowing legitimate assistants such as MUAs that are a part of the shoot team is not the same as allow just anyone (spectators, friends, escorts, etc.).

Not only is this a matter of preference on the part of many photographers, but the difference may have insurance, zoning and liability implications as well.

Some photographers may be fine with escorts, but others have very good reasons for not allowing them.  If a model chooses to insist on an escort, she needs to realize, it will put many potential shoots off limits.

Sep 11 13 10:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17,939
Los Angeles, California, US


Abbitt Photography wrote:
I can't speak for afplcc, but I think you are still confusing a couple elements of his point.

Allowing legitimate assistants such as MUAs that are a part of the shoot team is not the same as allow just anyone (spectators, friends, escorts, etc.).

Not only is this a matter of preference on the part of many photographers, but the difference may have insurance, zoning and liability implications as well.

Some photographers may be fine with escorts, but others have very good reasons for not allowing them.  If a model chooses to insist on an escort, she needs to realize, it will put many potential shoots off limits.

why is it ok for photographers to say they don't want escorts but not for models to say they do want to bring an assistant.

And escort is a term only used by non pros on the internet, pros call them model assistants, mother of the model, model's friend, model's ride, model's etc...

For ever argument against escorts there is an argument for them. Why not stop with the fear mongering (no one professional will work with you if you demand to bring a second person) and telling models they are unprofessional if they want to bring someone to the shoot.

I know very few pro photographers who don't allow the model to bring someone with them if the model asks to bring someone, therefor it must not be unprofessional for a model to ask to bring someone with them to a shoot.

Sep 11 13 10:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,734
Belmont, California, US


Rachel A Murray wrote:
I don't have a boyfriend and I have very few male friends- so I'm wondering, is it okay (I guess) to bring a female friend or a close male one, making sure that they don't interfere with the shoot?

They seem like good choices to me, especially if you think so. Obviously a MUA would be the best, make friends at the Nordstrom's counter.

Rachel A Murray wrote:
Is there anything else I should know regarding escorts, or a thread anybody can refer me to?

Do a search on "escort", many threads on the topic.

MY EXPERIENCE
Once an escort took some of my photographic equipment without me noticing, so I prefer to work with models who don't bring them, but if you came to me with a story like yours and it made you more comfortable you could probably talk me into it. I couldn't let them wander around the studio unattended any more though.

Sep 11 13 10:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,584
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


Star wrote:

why is it ok for photographers to say they don't want escorts but not for models to say they do want to bring an assistant.

And escort is a term only used by non pros on the internet, pros call them model assistants, mother of the model, model's friend, model's ride, model's etc...

For ever argument against escorts there is an argument for them. Why not stop with the fear mongering (no one professional will work with you if you demand to bring a second person) and telling models they are unprofessional if they want to bring someone to the shoot.

I know very few pro photographers who don't allow the model to bring someone with them if the model asks to bring someone, therefor it must not be unprofessional for a model to ask to bring someone with them to a shoot.

First, I never claimed, a no-escort policy was unprofessional.  I simply stated that many photographers here have a no-escort policy, and that they have a reason for that policy.   There are many, many threads here that will verify that fact.

I already mentioned what may be some of the differences between a true assistant such as a MUA and an escort / friend.

People who are contracted as a part of the production team may be viewed differently by insurance, or zoning policy and may present different liability issues.

From a photographer's viewpoint, as a part of a team, a MUA brings an added service to the shot, that improves the value of that shoot.  An escort does not bring this added value, but brings many potential negatives. 

While I don't yet have a no-escort policy, these are some of the personal reasons I see a difference.

1. If a model views me as a threat, I'd rather she not work with me at all, and would prefer to pass in favor of the majority of models who do not see me as a threat.

2.  It at least doubles the chance of the shoot falling through, because now I'm not just dependent on the model staying committed, but her escort as well, and unlike the model, the escort will not be compensated, so has less incentive to remain committed.

3.  I have a small space - escorts get in the way and are distracting.  A MUA takes up space too, but again that's justified by the service they bring, and most MUAs know shoot protocols better than most escorts.  MUAs, are there to do make up, not watch over a model - it sets a very different tone.


If you want to allow escorts, fine.  I'm not saying you shouldn't.  I'm just saying that an escort is not the same thing as a member of the production team (model, photographer, MUA, etc), and that related to that many photographers don't allow escorts.  Models should realize how their decision to bring an escort or not affects the shoot offers they will receive.

I agree with you that most professional, non-internet shoots may involve legitimate assistants but not escorts - that's completely in line with everything I've stated.

Sep 11 13 11:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
zaxpix
Posts: 1,988
New Brunswick, New Jersey, US


Star wrote:
why is it ok for photographers to say they don't want escorts but not for models to say they do want to bring an assistant.

It's ok for photographers to say NO to escorts because they have the right to run their business as they see fit.

As you, yourself, said in this very thread;...

Star wrote:
...I am in charger of my sets.

No one has said that it isn't ok for a model to want to bring an escort. She can bring a busload IF that's what she and the photographer agree to.


Star wrote:
I know very few pro photographers who don't allow the model to bring someone with them if the model asks to bring someone, therefor it must not be unprofessional for a model to ask to bring someone with them to a shoot.

Since the above statement can't be proven, we'll all assume that "escorts" are fine by you and leave it at that.

Z.

Sep 11 13 11:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bob Helm Photography
Posts: 18,200
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US


Star wrote:
I know very few pro photographers who don't allow the model to bring someone with them if the model asks to bring someone, therefor it must not be unprofessional for a model to ask to bring someone with them to a shoot.

I think there is a big difference in attitude between photographers that have a full size studio with waiting room and staff than with many photographers here who work out of their home and or who have very small camera rooms, often large enough for just two people.

Sep 11 13 12:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Valentina L
Posts: 2
Seattle, Washington, US


Thank you for saying that. I totally agree this is not a respectful or helpful way to talk to someone. It comes off as very insensitive and arrogant.
Sep 11 13 12:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Valentina L
Posts: 2
Seattle, Washington, US


Bottom line:

Do what makes you feel comfortable. If you choose to bring a friend, bring someone you trust and who makes you feel comfortable. I think gender is less important than personality of the friend.  If your friend is of the very timid, shy, naive variety, you may want to consider a friend who has a bit more confidence, experience, perhaps a little older. Basically someone you trust to advocate for you should you need it.
An experienced model would be a great choice.
If a photographer takes any offense or has an issue with you bringing a friend, don't worry about it, other jobs will come along. Especially as you are under 18 (but regardless of your age) if the photog has an issue with your preference then that's their problem. You don't need to be working with them.
A good, professional photog is going to respect your boundaries, your limits and is going to encourage you do to what you need to do to feel comfortable and therefore deliver good results.
I would be very way of a photog who is telling you not to bring a friend. Always prioritize your own comfort and safety. Go off your vibes, do your research, if you are feeling very uncomfortable about someone, its sometimes best to move on. Good luck! smile
Sep 11 13 12:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 10,077
Santa Ana, California, US


Valentina Lacrimarum wrote:
Bottom line:
...
A good, professional photog is going to respect your boundaries, your limits and is going to encourage you do to what you need to do to feel comfortable and therefore deliver good results.
I would be very way of a photog who is telling you not to bring a friend. Always prioritize your own comfort and safety.

You have a lot to learn about how things work. Maybe you should be open to learning, before spouting off nonsense in the forums. I don't allow models to bring tag-along friends and so far no-one has been wary of working with me. In fact it virtually never comes up with the people I work with because they're professionals and don't want to conduct themselves in an unprofessional manner to begin with. The only time I've encountered it is when I'm considering some naive new face from MM that's interesting. If she insists she looses the shoot. Simple.

Sep 11 13 08:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Honey Stinger
Posts: 6,347
Madison, Wisconsin, US


Star wrote:
I know very few pro photographers who don't allow the model to bring someone with them if the model asks to bring someone, therefor it must not be unprofessional for a model to ask to bring someone with them to a shoot.

You roll at a level that very, very few people on MM do. You know the MM community. Why try to compare what you do and who belongs on your set to an amateur dealing with (probably) very different conditions?

Your shoots draw professionals in your industry. Many of us, shooting as amateurs, may have to deal with a drunk bubba with a loaded pistol that dudn't trust his girlfriend.

Reconcile Star. Seriously.

Sep 11 13 09:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,321
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Valentina Lacrimarum wrote:
Bottom line:
A good, professional photog is going to respect your boundaries, your limits and is going to encourage you do to what you need to do to feel comfortable and therefore deliver good results.
I would be very way of a photog who is telling you not to bring a friend. Always prioritize your own comfort and safety. Go off your vibes, do your research, if you are feeling very uncomfortable about someone, its sometimes best to move on. Good luck! smile

Nope. The real bottom line is that yes, a good professional photographer will always respect your boundaries and limits....but that doesn't mean they're going to work with you if you insist on something they do not wish to have (an escort). Them respecting your wishes very well mean them passing on shooting with you instead.

Someone who doesn't want extra people on their shoots does not inherently make them unsafe or unprofessional. Likewise, just because someone allows you to bring a friend, that does not automatically make them safe or professional.

Sep 11 13 09:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,120
Chicago, Illinois, US


Valentina Lacrimarum wrote:
Bottom line:

Do what makes you feel comfortable. If you choose to bring a friend, bring someone you trust and who makes you feel comfortable. I think gender is less important than personality of the friend.  If your friend is of the very timid, shy, naive variety, you may want to consider a friend who has a bit more confidence, experience, perhaps a little older. Basically someone you trust to advocate for you should you need it.
An experienced model would be a great choice.
If a photographer takes any offense or has an issue with you bringing a friend, don't worry about it, other jobs will come along. Especially as you are under 18 (but regardless of your age) if the photog has an issue with your preference then that's their problem. You don't need to be working with them.
A good, professional photog is going to respect your boundaries, your limits and is going to encourage you do to what you need to do to feel comfortable and therefore deliver good results.
I would be very way of a photog who is telling you not to bring a friend. Always prioritize your own comfort and safety. Go off your vibes, do your research, if you are feeling very uncomfortable about someone, its sometimes best to move on. Good luck! smile

Really?   While I don't have the experience or know as many pros as STAR does.   I've been a assistant for some well known fashion and commercial photographers and none of them would consider any of this nonsense.   You don't bring friends to shoots.   Certainly these are people who have been vetted by the agency or they have been working so long everyone knows them.   Escorts aren't a issue because nobody allows them.   Models who bring friends to work are usually not with that agency long.   Pro fashion and commercial photographers have thousands of dollars in equipment that they want to protect from theft.   The agency knows their models but not their friends and boyfriends and girlfriends.   

Admittedly pro shoots have MUA and stylists, etc.   However there are other ways models can insure to a large degree their safety.   Take a friend to meet the photographer and tell him/her that person will return later to retrieve her.   Pre shoot meetings are a good ideal as well.   Get the photographers real name as well as address of the shoot and cell numbers.   Freelance models looking for paid work limit their options by demanding escorts and or not doing sessions when they can't bring them.   I would never pay a model and allow her friends at my studio.    So lets try this.   A good smart professional model does her due diligence before accepting shoots.   She understands that escorts are not about protection but comfort.

Sep 11 13 09:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Snyder Studios
Posts: 187
Los Angeles, California, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
Someone who doesn't want extra people on their shoots does not inherently make them unsafe or unprofessional. Likewise, just because someone allows you to bring a friend, that does not automatically make them safe or professional.

Your quotes are riddled with logic and common sense....  Thanks.

Sep 11 13 09:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,775
London, England, United Kingdom


Laura UnBound wrote:

In the OPs case, she's not a new model. If after four years you're still not comfortable doing something then perhaps its not the right something for you.

I'm in the anti-escort camp, but do understand why someone might find it scary when after 4 years HAVING to have a chaperone to suddenly not having to REQUIRE one. In the OP's case she is just turning 18 and will find many things scary the first time.

Sep 12 13 07:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,775
London, England, United Kingdom


Star wrote:

I disagree 99% of professional photographers have no problem, after all after the make-up artist, the AD, his/her assistant ,the stylist, the producer, the client, the hair stylist and my two assistants what is one more person?

My last editorial shoot was three days,

Day 1- was me, the AD, the AD's intern, the stunt coordinator, 2 aerialists, one contortionist, one model, 3 make-up people, one hair person, a stylist, her two assistants, an on set tailor, and my two assistants

Day 2- was was me, the AD, the 2nd ad, the stunt coordinator, 2 aerialists, four models, 4 make-up people, two hair people, a stylist, her two assistants, an on set tailor, and my two assistants

Day 3- was me, the AD, the AD's intern, 3 models, 3 make-up people, one hair person, a stylist, her two assistants, an on set tailor, and my two assistants

The fact is I won't work even a test without a make-up artist and a hairstylist, and i try to have a clothing stylist on board too. You don't need to feel safe at my shoots because there are a shit load of people there. And I don't mind people bringing assistants because I am not a little cry baby who can't take care of herself and her stuff and nobody has any trouble knowing that I am in charger of my sets.

Pretty common on large shoots, but most people aren't talking about those shoots are they? How many models bring escorts to your shoots?

Sep 12 13 07:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
K E E L I N G
Posts: 39,798
Peoria, Illinois, US


Star wrote:
I disagree 99% of professional photographers have no problem, after all after the make-up artist, the AD, his/her assistant ,the stylist, the producer, the client, the hair stylist and my two assistants what is one more person?

My last editorial shoot was three days,

Day 1- was me, the AD, the AD's intern, the stunt coordinator, 2 aerialists, one contortionist, one model, 3 make-up people, one hair person, a stylist, her two assistants, an on set tailor, and my two assistants

Day 2- was was me, the AD, the 2nd ad, the stunt coordinator, 2 aerialists, four models, 4 make-up people, two hair people, a stylist, her two assistants, an on set tailor, and my two assistants

Day 3- was me, the AD, the AD's intern, 3 models, 3 make-up people, one hair person, a stylist, her two assistants, an on set tailor, and my two assistants

The fact is I won't work even a test without a make-up artist and a hairstylist, and i try to have a clothing stylist on board too. You don't need to feel safe at my shoots because there are a shit load of people there. And I don't mind people bringing assistants because I am not a little cry baby who can't take care of herself and her stuff and nobody has any trouble knowing that I am in charger of my sets.

Darren Brade wrote:
Pretty common on large shoots, but most people aren't talking about those shoots are they? How many models bring escorts to your shoots?

I think the relevant part of Star's post is...

Star wrote:
nobody has any trouble knowing that I am in charger of my sets.

That is the important part of any shoot regarding the escort issue.  No matter how small the shoot, if you are in charge and take control of the set there are no problems.

Sep 12 13 07:54 am  Link  Quote 
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