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Photographer
Drunk Monkey Photo
Posts: 616
Lehigh Acres, Florida, US


This industry never ceases to amaze me. The way people think. A photographer, spends thousands of dollars on cameras, lenses, lights, etc, pays rent and utilities on studio. Buys props, make-up and the like for a shoot. The in an effort to build his/her portfolio looks for new models to shoot, on this website and others....And the model who just started or has only a few shoots under their belt, tells the photographer that their rate is $50 an hour and they want copies of the shots...... I'm thinking have they lost their minds.......they should be paying the photographer....not the other way around..... always amazes me!
Sep 13 13 01:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Drunk Monkey Photo wrote:
This industry never ceases to amaze me. The way people think. A photographer, spends thousands of dollars on cameras, lenses, lights, etc, pays rent and utilities on studio. Buys props, make-up and the like for a shoot. The in an effort to build his/her portfolio looks for new models to shoot, on this website and others....And the model who just started or has only a few shoots under their belt, tells the photographer that their rate is $50 an hour and they want copies of the shots...... I'm thinking have they lost their minds.......they should be paying the photographer....not the other way around..... always amazes me!

Would you pay an incompetent plumber just because he has expensive tools?

No? I thought not.




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Sep 13 13 01:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 10,077
Santa Ana, California, US


MM is not the industry although there are certainly some industry people on here.

MM is more a get-rich-quick-scheme for pretty girls.
Sep 13 13 01:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,380
Portland, Oregon, US


Drunk Monkey Photo wrote:
This industry never ceases to amaze me. The way people think. A photographer, spends thousands of dollars on cameras, lenses, lights, etc, pays rent and utilities on studio. Buys props, make-up and the like for a shoot. The in an effort to build his/her portfolio looks for new models to shoot, on this website and others....And the model who just started or has only a few shoots under their belt, tells the photographer that their rate is $50 an hour and they want copies of the shots...... I'm thinking have they lost their minds.......they should be paying the photographer....not the other way around..... always amazes me!

It never ceases to amaze me that people make a big deal out of stuff like this.  It's a business, and as such, it is subject to supply & demand.

Hire her.  Don't hire her, but...

Everyone has the right to ask for whatever compensation he/she wants;

The other party can accept, decline, or make a counter offer.


Nature will take care of this -- if she gets her rates & terms, she is justified, and if she doesn't get anyone to pay her & meet her terms, she'll either adjust her demands or get out of the business.  Either way, problem solved.

Besides, maybe this is just the initial offer in a negotiation discussion?

So, what's the point of this thread, anyways?  Do you think you will be able to shame models into asking for less?

Sep 13 13 02:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FlirtynFun Photography
Posts: 13,006
Houston, Texas, US


It never ceases to amaze me, that a photographer will spend thousands of dollars on equipment and will bitch and whine about spending a few hundred dollars hiring well established models to improve his/her portfolio.
Sep 13 13 02:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
F R A I M
Posts: 4,732
Prescott Valley, Arizona, US


It never ceases to amaze me how easily people are amazed...
Sep 13 13 02:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,735
Belmont, California, US


Cousin It never ceased to amaze me.
Sep 13 13 02:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,428
Salem, Oregon, US


i agree that photography can be a money pit but i also think some photographers would have been better off spending some of that money on their models (and training/mentoring). in fact in some circles i think having the best models can make all the difference. the times i've been able to afford the traveling models i've always come away impressed.

if a newbie wants $200/hour that does raise my eyebrows. but not $50/hour. sometimes it's all about the look/personality, not the experience.
Sep 13 13 02:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GD Whalen
Posts: 1,880
Asheville, North Carolina, US


nothing amazes me
Sep 13 13 02:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Viator Defessus Photos
Posts: 1,042
College Station, Texas, US


You just keep moving along. There's not need to waste energy being pissed at people. They're usually not half as dumb as you think they are. They just have a different perspective on the issue and have different goals.
Sep 13 13 02:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
fullmetalphotographer
Posts: 2,760
Fresno, California, US


Drunk Monkey Photo wrote:
This industry never ceases to amaze me. The way people think. A photographer, spends thousands of dollars on cameras, lenses, lights, etc, pays rent and utilities on studio. Buys props, make-up and the like for a shoot. The in an effort to build his/her portfolio looks for new models to shoot, on this website and others....And the model who just started or has only a few shoots under their belt, tells the photographer that their rate is $50 an hour and they want copies of the shots...... I'm thinking have they lost their minds.......they should be paying the photographer....not the other way around..... always amazes me!

Gear and expenses does not make a photographer, anymore than just a pretty face makes a model. I do not see why gear and expenses are relevant to hiring Talent.

I charge more than $50 an hour for my services. How much does Naomi Campbel, Hiromi Oshimal or Laura Croft charge for a shoot?

I don't think the first question they ask is how much you have spent on your gear, but how much is the pay.

Sep 13 13 02:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GNapp Studios
Posts: 6,205
Somerville, New Jersey, US


Actually I think the government should subsidize you for all you have spent on your equipment and your inability to attract clients.
Sep 13 13 02:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 54,145
Buena Park, California, US


I think someone's drunk. big_smile
Sep 13 13 02:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mcary
Posts: 1,803
Fredericksburg, Virginia, US


Drunk Monkey Photo wrote:
This industry never ceases to amaze me. The way people think. A photographer, spends thousands of dollars on cameras, lenses, lights, etc, pays rent and utilities on studio. Buys props, make-up and the like for a shoot.

What a terrible world we live where photographers are forced against their will to spend thousands of dollars on cameras, lenses lights ext,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Ohhhh the humanity of it!

Sep 13 13 02:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Nature Coast Lightworks
Posts: 1,869
Tampa, Florida, US


This thread comes to mind....was epic:

Everyone has the right to ask for whatever compensation he/she wants;

The other party can accept, decline, or make a counter offer.

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=902943

Enjoy!

jf

Sep 13 13 02:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Drunk Monkey Photo
Posts: 616
Lehigh Acres, Florida, US


i think that i wasn't clear enough in my 1st post.
What i was trying to say is, it pretty bold of the model, who hasn't even invested her time in building up a portfolio, but wanting paid AND the photos....thats what amazed me.
As far as the business side of this, i don't shoot for free very often, unless it's to shoot a new model on a tfp basis.
Sep 13 13 02:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Drunk Monkey Photo
Posts: 616
Lehigh Acres, Florida, US


Nature Coast Lightworks wrote:
This thread comes to mind....was epic:


http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=902943

Enjoy!

jf

fantastic post!

Sep 13 13 02:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leo Howard
Posts: 6,790
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Christopher Hartman wrote:
I think someone's drunk. big_smile

If not, maybe they should be.

Sep 13 13 02:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 54,145
Buena Park, California, US


Drunk Monkey Photo wrote:
i think that i wasn't clear enough in my 1st post.
What i was trying to say is, it pretty bold of the model, who hasn't even invested her time in building up a portfolio, but wanting paid AND the photos....thats what amazed me.
As far as the business side of this, i don't shoot for free very often, unless it's to shoot a new model on a tfp basis.

Bold?  maybe...so what?

If they think they have a marketable look and can make money, so be it.

Guess what will happen if no one hires her?

She'll adjust her rates or quit.  "Problem" solved.

Sep 13 13 02:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AG Media 13
Posts: 227
Townsville, Queensland, Australia


Supply and demand - there is no  entitlement on either side.
Sep 13 13 02:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


Drunk Monkey Photo wrote:
i think that i wasn't clear enough in my 1st post.
What i was trying to say is, it pretty bold of the model, who hasn't even invested her time in building up a portfolio, but wanting paid AND the photos....thats what amazed me.
As far as the business side of this, i don't shoot for free very often, unless it's to shoot a new model on a tfp basis.

The reason that many models "request photos" as well as cash is when they are honest and tell the photographer they don't want/need any photos. He gets all upset that his cash is worth more than his images.

So to combat this and appear more interested in the "art" aspect of the job.
Models have learned to placate photographers and ask for images too.

Sep 13 13 02:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TaylorScott Photography
Posts: 640
WITTMANN, Arizona, US


GNapp Studios wrote:
Actually I think the government should subsidize you for all you have spent on your equipment and your inability to attract clients.

Can I just get the subsidized money. I hate to have to work. Wait that is welfare.

Sep 13 13 02:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dave McDermott
Posts: 356
Coill Dubh, Kildare, Ireland


Drunk Monkey Photo wrote:
i think that i wasn't clear enough in my 1st post.
What i was trying to say is, it pretty bold of the model, who hasn't even invested her time in building up a portfolio, but wanting paid AND the photos....thats what amazed me.

I see where you're coming from. There are models with little or no experience who are looking for paid jobs only, which is a bit silly, but a lot of them get away with it. You'd very rarely see the opposite; a photographer with no experience charging models. Good luck with that.

Yeah its expensive, but an experienced model who can really add to your port is worth it. It's easy enough to spot the models who don't have a passion for it and just want to make a quick buck.

Sep 13 13 03:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jenna Mireille
Posts: 52
Ocean Springs, Mississippi, US


Oh what a thread... haha.
Sep 13 13 03:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeff Fiore
Posts: 9,221
Pelham, New York, US


Well I am AMAZED!!! smile

Most models who charge right from the start usually don't last long and never build a good port. Also, no one cares how much a photographer spends on the equipment and other costs.

As Looknsee said, the market will decide if they are worth paying or not....
Sep 13 13 03:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,107
Alexandria, Virginia, US


J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
MM is not the industry although there are certainly some industry people on here.

MM is more a get-rich-quick-scheme for pretty girls.

+1 -   but pretty is in the eye of the beholder :p

and -  I note the word "girls" - not models.....   though there are some smashing models here,  the MM minimum definition of "model" seems to be any remotely sentient being willing to pose for pictures....

Sep 13 13 03:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeff Fiore
Posts: 9,221
Pelham, New York, US


Carle Photography wrote:

The reason that many models "request photos" as well as cash is when they are honest and tell the photographer they don't want/need any photos. He gets all upset that his cash is worth more than his images.

So to combat this and appear more interested in the "art" aspect of the job.
Models have learned to placate photographers and ask for images too.

Or they want to get paid AND have good images for their port.

The way I look at it, if my work isn't good enough for a model to work with me TFP, why would she want any of the images?

Sep 13 13 03:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TaylorScott Photography
Posts: 640
WITTMANN, Arizona, US


Drunk Monkey Photo wrote:
And the model who just started or has only a few shoots under their belt, tells the photographer that their rate is $50 an hour and they want copies of the shots.

This is where you should have come back and said,

I understand you would like to get $50 an hour, but the project I am working on is limited and I would like to know if you would take $25 and hour and I will provide you with 20 (threw out a #) edited photos to use in your portfolio. I can guarantee that we could work for at least 2 to 3 hours.

If that model was needing money that bad, she might have jumped on your offer. I see this one model in my area and she is always posting in a casting call section and under compensation put ($250). I wrote her once and told her I would do the shoot and it would be about 3 hours long for what she was offering. She write back that she is looking for paid work and she would like to get $250 for an all day shoot, then I explained to her the rules.

She is still asking for $200 and $300 shoots and has just a little over 1 year and 4 months since she started modeling. Now she list herself as "experienced". Do not know if she is looking at the price as an hour or all day rate.

But to get back to your subject, if her looks are what you are wanting then you will either talk business or you will not, and if her portfolio has nothing but cell phone or self taken photos then I would either over look or offer a smaller rate and a few pictures.

My $0.02

Taylor

Sep 13 13 03:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,632
Los Angeles, California, US


Dave McDermott wrote:

I see where you're coming from. There are models with little or no experience who are looking for paid jobs only, which is a bit silly, but a lot of them get away with it. You'd very rarely see the opposite; a photographer with no experience charging models. Good luck with that.

Yeah its expensive, but an experienced model who can really add to your port is worth it. It's easy enough to spot the models who don't have a passion for it and just want to make a quick buck.

I think you'd be surprised.

I've gotten more than a few messages from photographers with point and shoots (or I hope to GOD they are point and shoots...) telling me I need to pay them $150-$500 to shoot with them so they can skyrocket me to stardom and help me kick off my modeling career.

One was nice enough to WAIVE the fee, and in exchange I get Gaussian blur, painted blue eyes and a jump start on my "molding" career. I thought it was nice. I've never had someone tell me I had potential for a career in molding.

Sep 13 13 03:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Broughton
Posts: 2,229
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


if models thought you had something more valuable than cash to offer them, they wouldn't insist on being paid.
Sep 13 13 03:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,632
Los Angeles, California, US


Jeff Fiore wrote:

Or they want to get paid AND have good images for their port.

The way I look at it, if my work isn't good enough for a model to work with me TFP, why would she want any of the images?

There are people who I won't TF with, as I don't feel a guarantee that I'll get good images, but will charge a much lower rate if I get photos as part of the deal.

I know that's not the case we're really talking about here, just mentioning a time when photos+cash might make sense.

Sep 13 13 03:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,217
Little Rock, Arkansas, US


MM is just a butthurt fest roll
Sep 13 13 03:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


K I C K H A M wrote:

I think you'd be surprised.

I've gotten more than a few messages from photographers with point and shoots (or I hope to GOD they are point and shoots...) telling me I need to pay them $150-$500 to shoot with them so they can skyrocket me to stardom and help me kick off my modeling career.

One was nice enough to WAIVE the fee, and in exchange I get Gaussian blur, painted blue eyes and a jump start on my "molding" career. I thought it was nice. I've never had someone tell me I had potential for a career in molding.

Those messages are what I miss MOST about modeling...
God those were some great messages...

Sep 13 13 03:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jakov Markovic
Posts: 1,126
Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia


There are so many models out there, you can always find someone for TFP.
Sep 13 13 03:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,632
Los Angeles, California, US


Carle Photography wrote:

Those messages are what I miss MOST about modeling...
God those were some great messages...

They are amazing.

Really, sometimes these are the highlights of my day. big_smile

Sep 13 13 03:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeff Fiore
Posts: 9,221
Pelham, New York, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
There are people who I won't TF with, as I don't feel a guarantee that I'll get good images, but will charge a much lower rate if I get photos as part of the deal.

I know that's not the case we're really talking about here, just mentioning a time when photos+cash might make sense.

Yes, I know. Many experienced models will do a reduced rate for images as part of the negotiation process if they feel they may get something good for their port.

It is sort of a "gamble" hence partial compensation...

Sep 13 13 03:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FlirtynFun Photography
Posts: 13,006
Houston, Texas, US


Drunk Monkey Photo wrote:
i think that i wasn't clear enough in my 1st post.

You were VERY clear...you have thousands of dollars of photo equipment

Sep 13 13 03:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


K I C K H A M wrote:
I've gotten more than a few messages from photographers with point and shoots (or I hope to GOD they are point and shoots...) telling me I need to pay them $150-$500 to shoot with them so they can skyrocket me to stardom and help me kick off my modeling career.

Were any of them called Terry Richardson? You might have missed an opportunity there... wink

Although I heard a rumour that he prefers models to pay him with 'services rendered' rather than cash - lol!



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Sep 13 13 04:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Vintagevista
Posts: 10,948
Sun City, California, US


FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me, that a photographer will spend thousands of dollars on equipment and will bitch and whine about spending a few hundred dollars hiring well established models to improve his/her portfolio.

http://www.beccalower.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Truth_sign.jpg

Sep 13 13 05:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 2,519
Muncie, Indiana, US


You buy makeup too? Congratulations.
Sep 13 13 05:11 pm  Link  Quote 
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