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Photographer
Conceptually Black
Posts: 8,320
Columbus, Ohio, US


Ash Photographic wrote:
Getting your pecker out at home or in a social situation is one thing.

Getting it out and asking a model to suck on it at what is supposed to be a professional photoshoot is another thing entirely.

Anybody who tries to excuse such behaviour is clearly harbouring secret fantasies of one day doing the same thing and the model saying "yes".





Ash.

Asking and forcing are totally different... especially when said person is known to pull it out regularly and/or ask most everyone to give it a little kiss. I don't care what happens between consenting adults, and many of these stories I hear of TR sound more like buyer's remorse than force.

Nov 04 13 08:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chicchowmein
Posts: 14,317
Palm Beach, Florida, US


Conceptually Black wrote:

Asking and forcing are totally different... especially when said person is known to pull it out regularly and/or ask most everyone to give it a little kiss. I don't care what happens between consenting adults, and many of these stories I hear of TR sound more like buyer's remorse than force.

If that was done in any other work environment it would not be ok.

Nov 04 13 08:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brooklyn Bridge Images
Posts: 8,769
Brooklyn, New York, US


Conceptually Black wrote:

Asking and forcing are totally different... especially when said person is known to pull it out regularly and/or ask most everyone to give it a little kiss. I don't care what happens between consenting adults, and many of these stories I hear of TR sound more like buyer's remorse than force.

Sexual Harassment in the workplace is far from the concept of 2 consenting adults
Also many people dont know about Terry's Books/blogs

Nov 04 13 08:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Conceptually Black
Posts: 8,320
Columbus, Ohio, US


Chicchowmein wrote:

If that was done in any other work environment it would not be ok.

But we're not talking about him pulling it out at a bank, or an office, or any standard job setting... we're talking about him doing it during HIS shoots, I read no where he did it during his major campaign shoots or while shooting Obama, his personal work is this stuff, so realistically it will happen.

Nov 04 13 09:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ash Photographic
Posts: 329
Cirencester, England, United Kingdom


Conceptually Black wrote:
especially when said person is known to pull it out regularly and/or ask most everyone to give it a little kiss.

So have you ever pulled your pecker out at a shoot and asked the model to 'give it a little kiss'.... with assistants standing by with a towel?







Ash.

Nov 04 13 09:24 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C new portfolio
Posts: 2,297
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


Tony Lawrence wrote:
No one is excusing bad behavior or acts.   However are we sure what's actually going on?   Do you believe that he's doing this in front of art directors or clients?   Are these stories true or like urban legends?   TR has been around for a while.   Why haven't any of these offended models gone to the police  or found a lawyer to sue him.   TR shoots big campaigns and stars.   He's a easy target even if none of this or parts are true.   I don't work in the fashion industry and few members on MM actually seem too.   How many models on this site or photographers have met TR?   Much less worked with him.   A few here have said they wouldn't work with TR.   Like he's asking them...LOL.

Sometimes people get caught up in the moment.   I've had models come with friends and in a few cases both removed all their clothes.   Once a model asked if she and her girl friend could do some erotic and explicit shots.   A bit of a surprise to her friend who still said YES.    We as outsiders don't know what's going on.   Models here may tell past stories about funky situations but if they didn't happen with Terry they have nothing to do with him.   What did HE do with his models?   Did he force himself on anyone?   Did he break any laws?

FUNKY situations? Is that what you call sexual harassment in a workplace?

As I said I am not saying TR is guilty. In fact I have stated clearly that I do not agree with the petition . However what I object to STRONGLY is any excusing of such actions. Making serious situations appear trite by saying they are 'funky' for example. While it's not TR, Lee Cropper was in a very strong position as the new darling of the fashion photography scene in London.
He was sent down for three years so obviously the Judge didn't think it was a funky situation either. Several MM girls fell foul of him and so don't you DARE belittle models like us just wanting to get on with a job of work by saying we aren't ever going to work with TR. Lee Cropper was bad enough and he was multiple fashion mag published. So how many young girls felt they shouldn't make a fuss? I didn't myself and was terribly upset by it all, and I refused him. I was 27 and
not a young girl but felt the pressure: give sexual favour or I won't shoot you. NOBODY should have to put up with that disgusting abusive crap in the workplace. While I agree that TR may be innocent and therefore the petition is out of order; I am extremely concerned by photographers who think such situations when they do happen are part of the job, between consenting adults , a funky situation etc. It is NOT acceptable. Thankfully Cropper will never do it again and anyone who thinks his behaviour ok ....well the law didn't agree.

Nov 04 13 09:33 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C new portfolio
Posts: 2,297
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


Conceptually Black wrote:
Asking and forcing are totally different... especially when said person is known to pull it out regularly and/or ask most everyone to give it a little kiss. I don't care what happens between consenting adults, and many of these stories I hear of TR sound more like buyer's remorse than force.

Asking and forcing?
The second is rape. Yes it's worse.

But do you think it ok for someone in a position of power over another to demand sexual favour? Let me tell you now it is far from okay. Consenting adults in a social situation would be bad enough if a guy in a bar came over to me and made disgusting sexual propositions . Women do NOT want every guy coming over to them asking you to suck their dick. BUT in a work situation where one person has power over another it is FAR worse. It is abuse . A model is there to work not to be asked to suck cock; and fear of retribution and not getting further work will be in the models mind. It is a diabolical abuse of power pure and simple.Consenting adults is not when one side is making promises
or threats or simply abusing their position to get sexual favour.

Nov 04 13 09:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chicchowmein
Posts: 14,317
Palm Beach, Florida, US


Conceptually Black wrote:

But we're not talking about him pulling it out at a bank, or an office, or any standard job setting... we're talking about him doing it during HIS shoots, I read no where he did it during his major campaign shoots or while shooting Obama, his personal work is this stuff, so realistically it will happen.

Oh so as long as it is not done in a campaign situation it is ok?

How about when the agency sends over a new model for a test? Then is it ok?

Nov 04 13 09:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,208
Buena Park, California, US


Chicchowmein wrote:
If that was done in any other work environment it would not be ok.

Arts and Entertainment always get a bit more flexibility.

They(Hollywood) can claim something is a true story while being a complete fabrication. big_smile

Nov 04 13 09:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ash Photographic
Posts: 329
Cirencester, England, United Kingdom


Tony Lawrence wrote:
No one is excusing bad behavior or acts.   However are we sure what's actually going on?   Do you believe that he's doing this in front of art directors or clients?   Are these stories true or like urban legends?   TR has been around for a while.   Why haven't any of these offended models gone to the police  or found a lawyer to sue him.

"He told me, “if you make me come, you get an A.” So I did! Pretty fast, I might add. All over my left hand. His assistant handed me a towel."

http://www.thegloss.com/2010/03/16/fash … els-story/

Are you suggesting this is acceptable just because she didn't file charges?



Ash.

Nov 04 13 10:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
eos3_300
Posts: 1,450
Brooklyn, New York, US


Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

This is what I meant by diseased before
Even here the people thinking well its fashion so normal laws of the work place do not apply to one of the giants of the industry.

Nov 04 13 11:07 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C new portfolio
Posts: 2,297
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


Ash Photographic wrote:

"He told me, “if you make me come, you get an A.” So I did! Pretty fast, I might add. All over my left hand. His assistant handed me a towel."

http://www.thegloss.com/2010/03/16/fash … els-story/

Are you suggesting this is acceptable just because she didn't file charges?



Ash.

I want to hear the answer to that from Tony and others who seem to think it's acceptable too. Just assume for a moment the girls story is true.

Nov 04 13 11:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
eos3_300
Posts: 1,450
Brooklyn, New York, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:
No one is excusing bad behavior or acts.

Actually it seems like some are

Nov 04 13 11:10 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C new portfolio
Posts: 2,297
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


eos3_300 wrote:
This is what I meant by diseased before
Even here the people thinking well its fashion so normal laws of the work place do not apply to one of the giants of the industry.

I just never had any issues like this or heard of them working in a fashion house which actually has a pretty edgy reputation. Actually the most edgy reputation in fashion. Everyone was always decent. Photographers , designers, models, bosses, clients, media people, office staff etc included.
So it isn't all the industry. But I agree if the industry - and it may well be at the top magazine/campaign end - is sanctioning this if it's happening then it is diseased and needs treating. Decadent behaviour among elites treating people badly  has seen their ivory towers fall on more than one occasion. The problem is if it goes unchallenged it trickles down by example do you get idiots and sickos who think they can get away with it too.

Nov 04 13 11:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tim Roper
Posts: 146
Palo Alto, California, US


If the factory fires in Bangladesh and other horrendous working conditions don't have much negative impact on brands like H&M, I doubt the antics of a photographer they sometimes use will.  Sadly, the public really doesn't seem to care about such things very much.
Nov 04 13 11:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
eos3_300
Posts: 1,450
Brooklyn, New York, US


Tim Roper wrote:
If the factory fires in Bangladesh and other horrendous working conditions don't have much negative impact on brands like H&M, I doubt the antics of a photographer they sometimes use will.  Sadly, the public really doesn't seem to care about such things very much.

Like I said before
News has been around on Terry for years
Nobody on top wants to affect their cash cow

Nov 04 13 11:24 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C new portfolio
Posts: 2,297
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


eos3_300 wrote:
Like I said before
News has been around on Terry for years
Nobody on top wants to affect their cash cow

But lets face it he isn't exactly a great photographer. If I'd had a request from a photographer to do a shoot with him naked with bananas or that wrecking ball video I'd turn it down on the grounds of naffness. The emperor is truly wearing no clothes.

I think things are changing. Of the fashion editorial shoot I did recently (my avatar was from the shoot) four of the designers are using sustainable ethical sources, and the magazine made a story of that. I know even at corporate level there is concern over such. That may not be affecting many of the corporations producing cheap stuff though true.

Nov 04 13 11:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
eos3_300
Posts: 1,450
Brooklyn, New York, US


Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

But lets face it he isn't exactly a great photographer. If I'd had a request from a photographer to do a shoot with him naked with bananas or that wrecking ball video I'd turn it down on the grounds of naffness. The emperor is truly wearing no clothes.

Haha
Well Im told that those of lower breeding like myself are not able to understand his genius
Thats another subject though.
Great or sucky if the allegations are true this guy needs to be put down.

Nov 04 13 11:36 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C new portfolio
Posts: 2,297
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


eos3_300 wrote:
Haha
Well Im told that those of lower breeding like myself are not able to understand his genius
Thats another subject though.
Great or sucky if the allegations are true this guy needs to be put down.

Yeah I'm told the same when I say the Beatles were crud. The problem is there are so many sycophants and wannabes and sheep willing to suck up to these people you aren't meant to say are actually wearing no clothes. I will say it if no one else will. TRs images if they were done by an MM photographer would have trouble getting models to shoot with him were it not for the fact the models he shoots with are famous. What is more, if he does carry on as is alleged, he'd have been charged by now. I guess the BBC were afraid to say the talentless scumbags they protected from allegations of child abuse were out of order in case it affected their cash cow too. But the truth is those at the top are often the least deserving of that. We do not always have meritocracy ; there are people here with far more talent than TR.

Nov 04 13 12:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,866
Chicago, Illinois, US


Ash Photographic wrote:

"He told me, “if you make me come, you get an A.” So I did! Pretty fast, I might add. All over my left hand. His assistant handed me a towel."

http://www.thegloss.com/2010/03/16/fash … els-story/

Are you suggesting this is acceptable just because she didn't file charges?



Ash.

First, that was not some sort sworn deposition.   It is on a gossip website and this is some of that writers past gems:   http://www.thegloss.com/author/jpeck/   Not sure I'd take him seriously.   Years ago when Michael Jackson was accused of sexual abuse people everywhere decided he was guilty.  People who barely knew him as well as those who just met him a few times all chimed in about his being a monster.   I recall two of his bodyguards who were interviewed.   They lived with Michael.   Both men said had anything close to what the media and those kids said happened they would have stopped it and gone to the police and I believe them.   At least I believe them over people who never met Michael and wrote about him based on third and fourth hand accounts of what he did.

The article you linked to is four years old.   The model could have found a lawyer and sued him.   Did she?   This is also pulled from your link:   ..." The first time I went over there was pretty okay. He made me tea and we hung out and talked a little before getting down to business. He spoke in the effeminate tones of someone trying very hard not to come off as sexually threatening despite the fact that he was basically walking around in a hipster pedophile costume. I got naked, danced around a bit, smiled, squeezed my tits together, yada yada. The Yeah Yeah Yeahs’ first album was playing on repeat. He asked me to call him Uncle Terry and I obliged, because why not?  "   Note what I highlighted.   Does that sound like a objective observation to you?

I don't what's true or not about TR.   I would also hope that I  not judge people when I've never met them or anyone they know.   Here something to consider.   A few years ago a former photographer member from Canada was accused of under-aged sex with a model.    Several models from this site claimed to have worked with him and that he was creepy.   One I challenged about her claims of knowing him.   It became apparent that she didn't.   My point is if a person would make up a lie about someone not very well known.   What might they say about someone as well known as TR.   This of course assumes you don't work in the fashion industry and are shooting for V or W or Vogue and have major clients and know TR or models he's worked with.

Nov 04 13 12:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C new portfolio
Posts: 2,297
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


Tony Lawrence wrote:
First, that was not some sort sworn deposition.   It is on a gossip website and this is some of that writers past gems:   http://www.thegloss.com/author/jpeck/   Not sure I'd take him seriously.   Years ago when Michael Jackson was accused of sexual abuse people everywhere decided he was guilty.  People who barely knew him as well as those who just met him a few times all chimed in about his being a monster.   I recall two of his bodyguards who were interviewed.   They lived with Michael.   Both men said had anything close to what the media and those kids said happened they would have stopped it and gone to the police and I believe them.   At least I believe them over people who never met Michael and wrote about him based on third and fourth hand accounts of what he did.

The article you linked to is four years old.   The model could have found a lawyer and sued him.   Did she?   This is also pulled from your link:   ..." The first time I went over there was pretty okay. He made me tea and we hung out and talked a little before getting down to business. He spoke in the effeminate tones of someone trying very hard not to come off as sexually threatening despite the fact that he was basically walking around in a hipster pedophile costume. I got naked, danced around a bit, smiled, squeezed my tits together, yada yada. The Yeah Yeah Yeahs’ first album was playing on repeat. He asked me to call him Uncle Terry and I obliged, because why not?  "   Note what I highlighted.   Does that sound like a objective observation to you?

I don't what's true or not about TR.   I would also hope that I  not judge people when I've never met them or anyone they know.   Here something to consider.   A few years ago a former photographer member from Canada was accused of under-aged sex with a model.    Several models from this site claimed to have worked with him and that he was creepy.   One I challenged about her claims of knowing him.   It became apparent that she didn't.   My point is if a person would make up a lie about someone not very well known.   What might they say about someone as well known as TR.   This of course assumes you don't work in the fashion industry and are shooting for V or W or Vogue and have major clients and know TR or models he's worked with.

Nobody's disagreeing here.

What we are asking is IF it is true do you think it acceptable?

You also dont have to know someone to say what they do is wrong. IF they are guilty of it. I don't know if he is or not; but IF he is....

Nov 04 13 12:24 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 20,580
New York, New York, US


eos3_300 wrote:
Haha
Well Im told that those of lower breeding like myself are not able to understand his genius
Thats another subject though.
Great or sucky if the allegations are true this guy needs to be put down.
Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Yeah I'm told the same when I say the Beatles were crud. The problem is there are so many sycophants and wannabes and sheep willing to suck up to these people you aren't meant to say are actually wearing no clothes. I will say it if no one else will. TRs images if they were done by an MM photographer would have trouble getting models to shoot with him were it not for the fact the models he shoots with are famous. What is more, if he does carry on as is alleged, he'd have been charged by now. I guess the BBC were afraid to say the talentless scumbags they protected from allegations of child abuse were out if order in case it affected their cash cow too. But the truth is those at the top are often the least deserving of that. We do not always have meritocracy ; there are people here with far more talent than TR.

It depends on which work you're basing that assessment.  Have you seen his campaign work that does not mimic his personal work?

And that brings us to another issue, that brushed up against earlier - and that is professionalism. 

There is a HUGE difference between professionalism on a job, and what you do for fun in your own time.  Most successful photographers, most successful artists of all stripes actually, tend to use their art as not only a commercial means to make a living, but also as a way of self expression.  They do what they enjoy doing.  Do you allow for any separation between the two?  To use your example, it would be wrong to proposition a student you tutor.  What if you were at a party with friends and one of your friends was like "you know what would be fun, if we started some tutoring, you know, just for kicks while we're drinking".  Would you be held to the same level of professionalism?  It's not a perfect analogy, I grant you, but I'm sure you can extrapolate from there to understand my point.

Nov 04 13 12:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C new portfolio
Posts: 2,297
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
It depends on which work you're basing that assessment.  Have you seen his campaign work that does not mimic his personal work?

And that brings us to another issue, that brushed up against earlier - and that is professionalism. 

There is a HUGE difference between professionalism on a job, and what you do for fun in your own time.  Most successful photographers, most successful artists of all stripes actually, tend to use their art as not only a commercial means to make a living, but also as a way of self expression.  They do what they enjoy doing.  Do you allow for any separation between the two?  To use your example, it would be wrong to proposition a student you tutor.  What if you were at a party with friends and one of your friends was like "you know what would be fun, if we started some tutoring, you know, just for kicks while we're drinking".  Would you be held to the same level of professionalism?  It's not a perfect analogy, I grant you, but I'm sure you can extrapolate from there to understand my point.

No it's not a good analogy. It's more like if I asked a student to help me with my research, and then propositioned him in the most base of ways with the implication that he'd never get a pass if he didn't oblige. Do you see that would still be out if order? And even at a party no I'd lose my job if it got out. If I acted in the way TR is alleged to that is. These arent relationships; this is gutteral sexual favour we are talking. For anyone in a,position of work superiority over another it's wrong. The boss still should not ask the intern to suck his dick at a xmas party.

Furthermore you are a forum guide. Is this your off the job response,? Because if you are saying this as a forum guide then I would resoectfully urge you to consider your answer carefully and responsibly given some of the attitudes expressed here to sexual abuse of models. It isn't that TR is guilty, he may not be. I have been among those condemning the petition. It is the apologists for such behaviour when it happens regardless of TR I am questioning. I was about to CAM. You may be able to clarify that MM does not sanction such frivolous treatment of models who do find themselves in such positions in general, and point that out to the apologists. We deserve the same rights in the workplace as anyone else we are not meat to be abused. And this is in every decent photographers interest,  as well as the good reputation of MM, too. And I ask that from you in the most respectful way possible.

Nov 04 13 12:34 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 20,580
New York, New York, US


Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
It depends on which work you're basing that assessment.  Have you seen his campaign work that does not mimic his personal work?

And that brings us to another issue, that brushed up against earlier - and that is professionalism. 

There is a HUGE difference between professionalism on a job, and what you do for fun in your own time.  Most successful photographers, most successful artists of all stripes actually, tend to use their art as not only a commercial means to make a living, but also as a way of self expression.  They do what they enjoy doing.  Do you allow for any separation between the two?  To use your example, it would be wrong to proposition a student you tutor.  What if you were at a party with friends and one of your friends was like "you know what would be fun, if we started some tutoring, you know, just for kicks while we're drinking".  Would you be held to the same level of professionalism?  It's not a perfect analogy, I grant you, but I'm sure you can extrapolate from there to understand my point.
Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
No it's not a good analogy. It's more like if I asked a student to help me with my research, and then propositioned him in the most base of ways with the implication that he'd never get a pass if he didn't oblige. Do you see that would still be out if order? And even at a party no I'd lose my job if it got out. If I acted in the way TR is alleged to that is. These arent relationships; this is gutteral sexual favour we are talking. For anyone in a,position of work superiority over another it's wrong. The boss still should not ask the intern to suck his dick at a xmas party.

Furthermore you are a forum guide. Is this your off the job response,? Because if you are saying this as a forum guide then I would resoectfully urge you to consider your answer carefully and responsibly given some of the attitudes expressed here to sexual abuse of models. It isn't that TR is guilty, he may not be. I have been among those condemning the petition. It is the apologists for such behaviour when it happens regardless of TR I am questioning. I was about to CAM. You may be able to clarify that MM does not sanction such frivolous treatment of models who do find themselves in such positions in general, and point that out to the apologists. We deserve the same rights in the workplace as anyone else we are not meat to be abused. And this is in every decent photographers interest,  as well as the good reputation of MM, too. And I ask that from you in the most respectful way possible.

Firstly, I'm responding as me, not in an official capacity (I don't even know if I HAVE one...).

Secondly, you have COMPLETELY misunderstood my point and, honestly, given your posting history, I don't think trying to be more clear is going to help.

Have a nice day.

Nov 04 13 02:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
K E E L I N G
Posts: 39,715
Peoria, Illinois, US


Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

Nobody's disagreeing here.

What we are asking is IF it is true do you think it acceptable?

You also dont have to know someone to say what they do is wrong. IF they are guilty of it. I don't know if he is or not; but IF he is....

Instead of accusing people of condoning abuse, shouldn't you respect the people who choose not to speculate?  They are the ones who are taking the higher ground in this and deciding that without any kind of proof whatsoever it's unfair to either speculate or condemn.  It doesn't mean they condone bad behavior, it means they don't want to ruin someone over something that they don't know happened.

Nov 04 13 02:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C new portfolio
Posts: 2,297
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


K E E L I N G wrote:
Instead of accusing people of condoning abuse, shouldn't you respect the people who choose not to speculate?  They are the ones who are taking the higher ground in this and deciding that without any kind of proof whatsoever it's unfair to either speculate or condemn.  It doesn't mean they condone bad behavior, it means they don't want to ruin someone over something that they don't know happened.

I HAVE. Repeatedly.

But then the thread took an extremely disturbing turn when people started suggesting such behaviour is somehow acceptable IF it is true.

What is more implications were made that 'well so what girls come on to photographers sometimes'; that lesser models may say they were accosted because they may seek notoriety, that it is an understable creative situation, and that such a situation was fucking funky. Having been in such a situation it is FAR from ' funky'.

Nov 04 13 02:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C new portfolio
Posts: 2,297
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
It depends on which work you're basing that assessment.  Have you seen his campaign work that does not mimic his personal work?

And that brings us to another issue, that brushed up against earlier - and that is professionalism. 

There is a HUGE difference between professionalism on a job, and what you do for fun in your own time.  Most successful photographers, most successful artists of all stripes actually, tend to use their art as not only a commercial means to make a living, but also as a way of self expression.  They do what they enjoy doing.  Do you allow for any separation between the two?  To use your example, it would be wrong to proposition a student you tutor.  What if you were at a party with friends and one of your friends was like "you know what would be fun, if we started some tutoring, you know, just for kicks while we're drinking".  Would you be held to the same level of professionalism?  It's not a perfect analogy, I grant you, but I'm sure you can extrapolate from there to understand my point.

Firstly, I'm responding as me, not in an official capacity (I don't even know if I HAVE one...).

Secondly, you have COMPLETELY misunderstood my point and, honestly, given your posting history, I don't think trying to be more clear is going to help.

Have a nice day.

No I didn't misunderstand. You gave an analogy which suggested if a uni tutor asked for such sexual favour at a party, it was acceptable. It isn't, and furthermore your analogy
was false as I explained CLEARLY. Just because a photographer is doing his own work as opposed to magazine work does not make it like a party; and even at a party a person in a,position of power over someone they are employing is still out of order WHEN sexual favour is asked for.

Do you agree....or NOT?

Nov 04 13 02:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


I have no idea if the allegations against him are true or not and I don't really care that much.  Either way, Terry Richardson is an overrated hack whose main "talent" is in getting supermodels to pose in explicit ways.  How he does this, I don't know; but that's really all he's known for.  Looking at his photography itself, it's incredibly mediocre and boring and any nitwit can do the same as he does with a crappy point-and-shoot.  Plus he involves himself so much in the shoots he does, I always feel like I'm looking through the trophy shots of some old-ass pervert rather than looking at real photography.
Nov 04 13 02:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C new portfolio
Posts: 2,297
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


R Byron Johnson wrote:
I have no idea if the allegations against him are true or not and I don't really care that much.  Either way, Terry Richardson is an overrated hack whose main "talent" is in getting supermodels to pose in explicit ways.  How he does this, I don't know; but that's really all he's known for.  Looking at his photography itself, it's incredibly mediocre and boring and any nitwit can do the same as he does with a crappy point-and-shoot.  Plus he involves himself so much in the shoots he does, I always feel like I'm looking through the trophy shots of some old-ass pervert rather than looking at real photography.

Regardless of his innocent or guilt that is the best appraisal of his work I have ever read. Kudos to you for saying it.

Nov 04 13 02:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,796
Chicago, Illinois, US


Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

No I didn't misunderstand. You gave an analogy which suggested if a uni tutor asked for such sexual favour at a party, it was acceptable. It isn't, and furthermore your analogy
was false as I explained CLEARLY. Just because a photographer is doing his own work as opposed to magazine work does not make it like a party; and even at a party a person in a,position of power over someone they are employing is still out of order WHEN sexual favour is asked for.

Do you agree....or NOT?

I know you consider yourself to be brilliant, you've stated as much in other threads. However, whenever I read your posts, I find it nearly impossible to understand what you write. Between the run on sentences, the poor punctuation, and the stream of consciousness ramblings, I simply can’t figure out what you’re trying to say.

Basically, in your posts, nothing is ever very clear. Sometimes I wonder if you are deliberately obtuse just to insure an argument, because that's what you seem to be really good at... arguing.

Nov 04 13 03:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,866
Chicago, Illinois, US


You know what's appropriate in life.   What other adults consider is appropriate.   I know models who would be highly offended by a innocent joke and others that would laugh at something a sailor would blush hearing.   Jaime the model that the women with the petition used said she agreed to give TR a hand job.   It wasn't during a pro shoot and this after he had asked to play with her tampon.   I know plenty of models that would've kicked him in his nuts rather then provide a hand job.   If true he shouldn't have asked.   If true she shouldn't have agreed to do it.   All this in FRONT of witnesses.   To be fair Ms. Peck doesn't seem to be looking for a pound of flesh.   What's critical here is that the petition is alleging he's committed crimes.

Sex between consenting adults is legal.


Edit:  LOL...  Just read Bob's comment.   Thanks, Robert I just spit up coffee on my keyboard.
Nov 04 13 03:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:
You know what's appropriate in life.   What other adults consider is appropriate.   I know models who would be highly offended by a innocent joke and others that would laugh at something a sailor would blush hearing.   Jaime the model that the women with the petition used said she agreed to give TR a hand job.   It wasn't during a pro shoot and this after he had asked to play with her tampon.   I know plenty of models that would've kicked him in his nuts rather then provide a hand job.   If true he shouldn't have asked.   If true she shouldn't have agreed to do it.   All this in FRONT of witnesses.   To be fair Ms. Peck doesn't seem to be looking for a pound of flesh.   What's critical here is that the petition is alleging he's committed crimes.

Sex between consenting adults is legal.


Edit:  LOL...  Just read Bob's comment.   Thanks, Robert I just spit up coffee on my keyboard.

If this and if that......

Considering Richardson's prominence in the industry, I can easily see why an inexperienced model would feel pressured into doing what he says.  And, despite all his bullshit excuses, I'm sure he's well aware of the power he has and takes advantage of it.

He comes across like a hypocritical, full of shit, douchebag to me.  For example, a while back after doing a studio show where much of his work was criticized as being "pornographic", he stated in an interview that he doesn't like porn because he feels it's exploitative.  A few months later he did a shoot with Sasha Grey for Penthouse.  He's a liar.  And probably the most famous and successful GWC there ever was.

Nov 04 13 03:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:
You know what's appropriate in life.   What other adults consider is appropriate.   I know models who would be highly offended by a innocent joke and others that would laugh at something a sailor would blush hearing.   Jaime the model that the women with the petition used said she agreed to give TR a hand job.   It wasn't during a pro shoot and this after he had asked to play with her tampon.   I know plenty of models that would've kicked him in his nuts rather then provide a hand job.   If true he shouldn't have asked.   If true she shouldn't have agreed to do it.   All this in FRONT of witnesses.   To be fair Ms. Peck doesn't seem to be looking for a pound of flesh.   What's critical here is that the petition is alleging he's committed crimes.

Sex between consenting adults is legal.


Edit:  LOL...  Just read Bob's comment.   Thanks, Robert I just spit up coffee on my keyboard.

And besides, maybe she did "agree" to give him a handjob, but so what?  The law isn't all that matters.  Ethics matter too.

Nov 04 13 04:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,866
Chicago, Illinois, US


R Byron Johnson wrote:

And besides, maybe she did "agree" to give him a handjob, but so what?  The law isn't all that matters.  Ethics matter too.

He's not being called unethical in that petition.   Its being alleged he's a criminal with demands that clients not use him.   All this without any convictions or even charges or a lawsuit.   Its pretty easy to sue someone.   If half of what is being alleged is true a model could collect hundreds of thousands of dollars.   Look, I'm not saying what's right here.   I am saying that adults are free to make their own choices.   In college I knew a great looking Gay student who was hit on by a male teacher.   The teacher offered a better grade for sexual favors which the student said no too and reported him.   TR seems creepy.   He appears to be a opportunist.   However I don't know if that should equal ruining  him or trying to when the model who started this hasn't actually spoken too anyone who's worked with TR or knows first hand what he's done.

However, I agree, ethics do matter.

Nov 04 13 04:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mikey McMichaels
Posts: 1,436
New York, New York, US


Conceptually Black wrote:
But we're not talking about him pulling it out at a bank, or an office, or any standard job setting... we're talking about him doing it during HIS shoots, I read no where he did it during his major campaign shoots or while shooting Obama, his personal work is this stuff, so realistically it will happen.

Do you understand why it can be considered sexual harassment when a boss dates an employee, even if neither of them consider it to be harassment?

Nov 04 13 04:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:

He's not being called unethical in that petition.   Its being alleged he's a criminal with demands that clients not use him.   All this without any convictions or even charges or a lawsuit.   Its pretty easy to sue someone.   If half of what is being alleged is true a model could collect hundreds of thousands of dollars.   Look, I'm not saying what's right here.   I am saying that adults are free to make their own choices.   In college I knew a great looking Gay student who was hit on by a male teacher.   The teacher offered a better grade for sexual favors which the student said no too and reported him.   TR seems creepy.   He appears to be a opportunist.   However I don't know if that should equal ruining  him or trying to when the model who started this hasn't actually spoken too anyone who's worked with TR or knows first hand what he's done.

However, I agree, ethics do matter.

I honestly don't care about the petition.  I just get sick of people defending him based on the simple technicality that he's done nothing "illegal".  And I get sick of people saying things like, "Well they chose to do that," as if people  never feel pressured into doing things they wouldn't normally do, even though this happens all the time.  Richardson is one of the most prominent fashion photographers there is, and he knows that and clearly uses that fact to coerce models into  doing things they wouldn't normally do.  Yes, that's not illegal, but it's still sleazy as fuck.

I think models and actors should boycott his sleazy ass by refusing to pose for him.

Nov 04 13 04:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Byron Johnson
Posts: 767
Norman, Oklahoma, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:

He's not being called unethical in that petition.   Its being alleged he's a criminal with demands that clients not use him.   All this without any convictions or even charges or a lawsuit.   Its pretty easy to sue someone.   If half of what is being alleged is true a model could collect hundreds of thousands of dollars.   Look, I'm not saying what's right here.   I am saying that adults are free to make their own choices.   In college I knew a great looking Gay student who was hit on by a male teacher.   The teacher offered a better grade for sexual favors which the student said no too and reported him.   TR seems creepy.   He appears to be a opportunist.   However I don't know if that should equal ruining  him or trying to when the model who started this hasn't actually spoken too anyone who's worked with TR or knows first hand what he's done.

However, I agree, ethics do matter.

I apologize for appearing so confrontational.  It's just that Richardson is like my anti-christ as far as I'm concerned.  It's more directed at him than you.

Nov 04 13 04:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mikey McMichaels
Posts: 1,436
New York, New York, US


Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

Asking and forcing?
The second is rape. Yes it's worse.

But do you think it ok for someone in a position of power over another to demand sexual favour? Let me tell you now it is far from okay. Consenting adults in a social situation would be bad enough if a guy in a bar came over to me and made disgusting sexual propositions . Women do NOT want every guy coming over to them asking you to suck their dick. BUT in a work situation where one person has power over another it is FAR worse. It is abuse . A model is there to work not to be asked to suck cock; and fear of retribution and not getting further work will be in the models mind. It is a diabolical abuse of power pure and simple.Consenting adults is not when one side is making promises
or threats or simply abusing their position to get sexual favour.

This is a perfect example of the problem.

When were the sex acts discussed, at the shoot or during the booking process?

None of us know the answer, and everyone is basing their opinion on the assumption that the photos we see came about as a surprise to the model.

There's the Jezebel post, which sounds like that case was not discussed during casting, though it wasn't specified. She's not depicted performing any sex acts with Terry, so my question pertains to the photos we've seen.

Which of those were shot right after the commercial shoot wrapped?

Without verifiable answers to these specific questions, everything is just hearsay.


Sometimes bad things happen and people get away with it because there's no proof, but it's wrong to state things as fact that are based on hearsay.

Nov 04 13 04:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,386
Beckley, West Virginia, US


The NY Post is even worse than Faux news to be honest.  It's basically yellow journalism where they don't even employ any fact checkers in the editor's staff before running with stories. I'd like to see a more reliable source.

I realize he does some questionable things and may have serious issues with ethical behavior, but until I see some solid evidence that he has broken the law, I don't plan to persecute the man.
Nov 04 13 04:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,796
Chicago, Illinois, US


R Byron Johnson wrote:
I honestly don't care about the petition.  I just get sick of people defending him based on the simple technicality that he's done nothing "illegal".  And I get sick of people saying things like, "Well they chose to do that," as if people  never feel pressured into doing things they wouldn't normally do, even though this happens all the time.  Richardson is one of the most prominent fashion photographers there is, and he knows that and clearly uses that fact to coerce models into  doing things they wouldn't normally do.  Yes, that's not illegal, but it's still sleazy as fuck.

I think models and actors should boycott his sleazy ass by refusing to pose for him.

You have pictures in your MM folio that many people would consider pornographic in nature.

Nov 04 13 04:40 pm  Link  Quote 
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