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Retoucher
Han Sam
Posts: 141
Guangzhou, Guangdong, China


Hello.
I have a question and hope can get some advice. How to change a black skirt to white but keep texture. Example like this picture?
Thks you so much.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yyk2c1b0db2k3gd/black_skirt1.jpg
Nov 03 13 07:12 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Five Retouching
Posts: 51
Des Moines, Iowa, US


Just an idea, but would frequency seperation work if you recolored under the texture layer?
Nov 03 13 07:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tulack
Posts: 553
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Five Retouching wrote:
Just an idea, but would frequency seperation work if you recolored under the texture layer?

Shadows and Highlights are not texture.

Nov 03 13 09:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tulack
Posts: 553
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Han Sam wrote:
Hello.
I have a question and hope can get some advice. How to change a black skirt to white but keep texture. Example like this picture?

If skirt would be any color then yes, you can change it. Since black and white are not colors, there is nothing you can do.

Nov 03 13 10:04 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Peano
Posts: 4,106
Lynchburg, Virginia, US


It can be done with a couple of curves adjustment layers, set approximately like these:

http://imageshack.us/a/img844/6836/9j6t.jpg

The tricky part is building a mask that knocks out all those little gaps in the fabric.

http://imageshack.us/a/img59/5082/klmb.jpg
Nov 03 13 11:02 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Ledo retouch
Posts: 1,145
Lodi, California, US


if you have the RAW file, you can make a new one that is +100 exposure and
+100 fill, mask it off and see if that get you in the ballpark.
Nov 03 13 12:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jakov Markovic
Posts: 1,102
Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia


This is not a request to be taken seriously.

And if your client were to actually advertise their product, they would want to have best possible representation of it.

This is the kind of thing you just say "no" to.

Having said that, channel selection and adding texture by dnbing with selection will get you there, also try out what you can pull from R G B channels right in the raw.
Nov 03 13 05:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Thinking Inside The Box
Posts: 262
Diamond Bar, California, US


Tulack wrote:

Han Sam wrote:
Hello.
I have a question and hope can get some advice. How to change a black skirt to white but keep texture. Example like this picture?

If skirt would be any color then yes, you can change it. Since black and white are not colors, there is nothing you can do.

Peano's layers are a good way to do it, notwithstanding that there is nothing you can do.

Similarly, this snippet from Glenn Honiball's Commercial Photoshop Retouching in the Studio gives details on accomplishing this as well.

It's not as trivial as a hue change, but it's frequently very possible--and practical.

Jakov Markovic wrote:
This is not a request to be taken seriously.

And if your client were to actually advertise their product, they would want to have best possible representation of it.

That assumes they have more than one prototype or have one in the right color.  For simple clothing, it's usually much cheaper to shoot the right color; for many other products, it's not an option at all, much less easier/cheaper/whatever-er.

It's not a request to take lightly; it very much may need to be taken seriously.

Nov 03 13 11:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sean C
Posts: 34
Dallas, Texas, US


Jakov Markovic wrote:
... This is the kind of thing you just say "no" to.

+1

Even if you were able to do it, there is a very high chance that it will not look 100% real, thus making your photography look like a lower quality than it actually is.

Nov 03 13 11:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,842
Chicago, Illinois, US


Jakov Markovic wrote:
... This is the kind of thing you just say "no" to.
Sean C wrote:
+1

Even if you were able to do it, there is a very high chance that it will not look 100% real, thus making your photography look like a lower quality than it actually is.

When you work in catalog for companies like Sears and Target, you soon realize that their vendors are frequently pushed to the limits with regard to production timelines. Very often you find yourself shooting a one of a kind sample that the buyer has issues with in regard to color or tone. When the buyer tells you s/he wants a black cardigan to be Persian Pink, you have a few options. One option is to change the color.

Actually, if you want to retain the client, there is no other option.

Nov 04 13 01:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 717
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain


Jakov Markovic wrote:
This is the kind of thing you just say "no" to.

Jakov trust me if you say no to this kind of request... you would be very quickly out of the game. The reason they get their images retouched is for this reason... we can do things like this and they know, and if you don't know it, you need to find the way as your client won't take a no can't do for an answer...

:-)

Nov 04 13 02:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jakov Markovic
Posts: 1,102
Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia


The Invisible Touch wrote:

Jakov trust me if you say no to this kind of request... you would be very quickly out of the game. The reason they get their images retouched is for this reason... we can do things like this and they know, and if you don't know it, you need to find the way as your client won't take a no can't do for an answer...

:-)

Are you guys really doing this kind of stuff? White to black? That's just crazy. I know it can be done once in a while but all the time? Really? I am shocked. I know I've had to this kind of thing a few times, and never again.

Do the clients request this for billboards or just lookbooks?

Nov 04 13 05:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Peano
Posts: 4,106
Lynchburg, Virginia, US


Robert Randall wrote:
When the buyer tells you s/he wants a black cardigan to be Persian Pink, you have a few options. One option is to change the color.

Or a truck. It's amazing that "high-end" wizards can't do such a simple task.

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3427/0xkf.jpg

Nov 04 13 05:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,842
Chicago, Illinois, US


Jakov Markovic wrote:
Are you guys really doing this kind of stuff? White to black? That's just crazy. I know it can be done once in a while but all the time? Really? I am shocked.

I've had to turn black nylon stockings to nude for Hanes, red Corvettes to black for GM, print draperies to solid for Martha Stewart... It happens every day.

Nov 04 13 05:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,842
Chicago, Illinois, US


Peano wrote:

Or a truck. It's amazing that "high-end" wizards can't do such a simple task.

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3427/0xkf.jpg

Pretty good, might try a tight highlight mask to get rid of color in the high lights... See if you like it.

Nov 04 13 05:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Awesome Headshots
Posts: 2,369
San Ramon, California, US


Jakov Markovic wrote:
Are you guys really doing this kind of stuff? White to black? That's just crazy. I know it can be done once in a while but all the time? Really? I am shocked. I know I've had to this kind of thing a few times, and never again.

Do the clients request this for billboards or just lookbooks?

Thank you on behalf of all the jobs YOU created by saying no. Now someone who can and will do this has a new client. big_smile

Nov 04 13 05:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ Garcia
Posts: 1,416
Escondido, California, US


Jakov Markovic wrote:

Are you guys really doing this kind of stuff? White to black? That's just crazy. I know it can be done once in a while but all the time? Really? I am shocked. I know I've had to this kind of thing a few times, and never again.

Do the clients request this for billboards or just lookbooks?

This is pretty common with catalog stuff online. Perfect example is say a solid color tshirt. A lot of times its the same shirt, and you have options of colors. Sometimes you will notice its the exact same image of a person wearing the shirt, but if you select another color, just the color of the shirt changes.

Its cheaper than shooting all 10 color variations of the exact same tshirt.

Nov 04 13 05:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Peano
Posts: 4,106
Lynchburg, Virginia, US


Robert Randall wrote:
Pretty good, might try a tight highlight mask to get rid of color in the high lights... See if you like it.

Not a bad idea ...

http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af171/retouch46/Forums/pinktruck2_zps8f8ed5e6.gif

Nov 04 13 07:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24,078
Toulon, Provence-Alpes-Côte-d'Azur, France


Robert Randall wrote:
I've had to turn black nylon stockings to nude for Hanes, red Corvettes to black for GM, print draperies to solid for Martha Stewart... It happens every day.

Well that would be easier than shooting it again, if they like the pose/shot and need something consistent. I'm assuming that recoloring in post would be as or more accurate than the product/widget in that color in the first place.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Nov 04 13 08:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,842
Chicago, Illinois, US


Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:

Well that would be easier than shooting it again, if they like the pose/shot and need something consistent. I'm assuming that recoloring in post would be as or more accurate than the product/widget in that color in the first place.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

There are a lot of ways to change tone and color in an image... Peano's curve solution for the black skirt is one way that works, myself, I usually swap channels in CMYK for my work. I don't think the technique matters as much as the result, and as long as you have some target numbers to go by, you should be able to get the results without showing the technique in the image.

This would have been a more interesting thread if the original image contained a bit more detail. Peano's truck was fun!

Nov 04 13 09:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
AKMac
Posts: 325
London, England, United Kingdom


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21186335/pinktruck.jpg
I think this is possibly closer to what it would look like in reality.
Nov 04 13 11:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 32,933
Los Angeles, California, US


AKMac wrote:
I think this is possibly closer to what it would look like in reality.

I think you are right about the stronger ratio, but I also think the sky would contribute more blue, especially on the shadow side.

http://jfrancis.smugmug.com/photos/i-3C2hFCm/0/L/i-3C2hFCm-L.jpg

Nov 05 13 01:02 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 717
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain


Jakov Markovic wrote:
Are you guys really doing this kind of stuff? White to black? That's just crazy. I know it can be done once in a while but all the time? Really? I am shocked. I know I've had to this kind of thing a few times, and never again.

Do the clients request this for billboards or just lookbooks?

I had to do that on a few fashion images, when they decided to change black shoes to white or the opposite and also with a bench.. there was not room in my head for "I can't do this" what I did instead was to find a way to do it... so I learnt the way and had a happy client. At the end of the day that's why my clients pay me right??

J

Nov 05 13 02:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
cwwmbm
Posts: 429
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


The Invisible Touch wrote:

I had to do that on a few fashion images, when they decided to change black shoes to white or the opposite and also with a bench.. there was not room in my head for "I can't do this" what I did instead was to find a way to do it... so I learnt the way and had a happy client. At the end of the day that's why my clients pay me right??

J

It depends on the client I guess. Part of what I pay retouchers for is to have them say "it's a turd" and have me reshoot rather than waste their time (and my money) on retouching. Of course, sometimes reshoot is not possible, but I still wanna hear that it sucks and, preferably, what should change next time to make it not suck (a little deeper than change of colours of course)

Nov 05 13 02:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jakov Markovic
Posts: 1,102
Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia


I don't think you guys understand why I'm so upset about this.

Everything can be done, if you pay for it...

It is not shoes on a full body shot, or stockings on a fully dressed model, but a skirt in an ad for a skirt and BLACK(most cameras keep very little detail in blacks when you expose for skin) to white. And it's lace on top of that-masking galore.

I made a blue-yellow-white tracksuit red and yellow for a crisps campaign, but this is actually advertising the skirt.

I understand where you guys are coming form, but try to get what I'm saying.
Nov 05 13 05:09 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Zeljko Naic
Posts: 14
Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia


Jakov Markovic wrote:
I understand where you guys are coming form, but try to get what I'm saying.

I'm trying but still don't get it.
Are you exclusively an artist, and not a "mere" craftsman? If so, don't do commissioned work, do your art and be happy. And others do what they choose. I don't understand why you seem so stressed about other people doing their jobs. smile

Nov 05 13 06:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jakov Markovic
Posts: 1,102
Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia


Zeljko Naic wrote:

I'm trying but still don't get it.
Are you exclusively an artist, and not a "mere" craftsman? If so, don't do commissioned work, do your art and be happy. And others do what they choose. I don't understand why you seem so stressed about other people doing their jobs. smile

Because when you start cutting corners, soon everything falls apart.

Nov 05 13 06:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wye
Posts: 9,683
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Jakov Markovic wrote:
I don't think you guys understand why I'm so upset about this.

Everything can be done, if you pay for it...

It is not shoes on a full body shot, or stockings on a fully dressed model, but a skirt in an ad for a skirt and BLACK(most cameras keep very little detail in blacks when you expose for skin) to white. And it's lace on top of that-masking galore.

I made a blue-yellow-white tracksuit red and yellow for a crisps campaign, but this is actually advertising the skirt.

I understand where you guys are coming form, but try to get what I'm saying.

I don't know about you.. but I make money when I say "yes" to my clients.  When I say "no" to them I don't make money.  That is assuming, of course, that the thing I'm saying "yes" to can actually be done.

I don't trouble myself with "why" they want me to turn a red Boeing 737 into a white or one make it look like something shot during the day is actually at night or make something that was in bright noonday sun look like it was shot on an overcast day so long as I am certain that I can actually do it and they pay me on time.

Nov 05 13 06:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wye
Posts: 9,683
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Jakov Markovic wrote:

Because when you start cutting corners, soon everything falls apart.

Why must such a thing be the result of "cutting corners"? Are you certain that there's absolutely no other way for such a thing to happen?

Nov 05 13 06:38 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Peano
Posts: 4,106
Lynchburg, Virginia, US


Jakov Markovic wrote:
Because when you start cutting corners, soon everything falls apart.

What the hell do those phrases mean? Give us an actual, real-world example of where someone "cut corners" and then "everything fell apart." I'd really like to understand just what sort of calamity you're alluding to.

EDIT: And please don't say that changing the color of a product is "cutting corners," not when time or budget constraints prohibit re-shooting a different product. In that case it's just making the best of a less-than-ideal situation.

Nov 05 13 06:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jakov Markovic
Posts: 1,102
Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia


Peano wrote:
What the hell do those phrases mean? Give us an actual, real-world example of where someone "cut corners" and then "everything fell apart." I'd really like to understand just what sort of calamity you're alluding to.

EDIT: And please don't say that changing the color of a product is "cutting corners," not when time or budget constraints prohibit re-shooting a different product. In that case it's just making the best of a less-than-ideal situation.

Well, we don't have a skirt ready, so shoot another model, we don't have make up artist on board, so we'll do that in post also, and we don't have the lighting set, we'll make it look alike in post, and we'll do hair in post... And when you sum all that up over the number of images, instead of paying for retouching, you could've just shot it right, as retouching isn't free.

I think it is legitimate to change colors of clothes and anything in the image, but I wonder why would anyone ask for a such a dramatic change on a product that they're trying to advertise? In my experience, loss of detail in going black to white is considerable.

Nov 05 13 07:16 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Peano
Posts: 4,106
Lynchburg, Virginia, US


Jakov Markovic wrote:
In my experience, loss of detail in going black to white is considerable.[/b]

Does your experience tell you which (if any) of these skirts was originally black and changed to white in post?

http://s6.postimg.org/lcs6tfhvh/skirts.jpg

Nov 05 13 08:44 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Najan
Posts: 83
Poitiers, Poitou-Charentes, France


Can we play too, Peano?
I have an answer but don't want to interfere in your argument.
Nov 05 13 08:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jakov Markovic
Posts: 1,102
Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia


Peano wrote:

Does your experience tell you which (if any) of these skirts was originally black and changed to white in post?

http://s6.postimg.org/lcs6tfhvh/skirts.jpg

Good point. Maybe I'm obsessing over nothing.

Damn, that one on the right looks bad.

Nov 05 13 09:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan OMell
Posts: 1,335
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
that would be easier than shooting it again

+1
plus, sometimes it's just fun, turning "black nylon stockings to nude" smile (jk)

Nov 05 13 09:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Kirk
Posts: 4,453
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada


Jakov Markovic wrote:

Because when you start cutting corners, soon everything falls apart.

If the client is happy with doing it in post then what is the problem?  Not every job requires a masterpiece.  Get it done to the clients' spec as efficiently as possible.

Early computer programmers used to lament that using a programming language like C was cutting corners and compilers generated code which could not compare to hand-crafted assembly level code.  They failed to see the overwhelming advantages of using a compiled language...productivity!

Similarly with MP3 encoded music - audiophiles cringed at the thought of having compressed audio (and only after just recovering from having to transition from analog to digital), but the benefits of carrying around your entire music collection in your pocket and purchasing all your music online with just a mouse click is pretty hard to ignore.  My kids have no idea that the music they purchase is compressed and they don't care.

Nov 05 13 10:21 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
CHAD ALAN
Posts: 3,351
Los Angeles, California, US


Jakov Markovic wrote:
(snipped)...
I think it is legitimate to change colors of clothes and anything in the image, but I wonder why would anyone ask for a such a dramatic change on a product that they're trying to advertise?

Because clients change minds, and things can change from the time something is shot, to the time it's ready to be marketed. Clients can do A/B/C tests on a homepage, analyze metrics and see that a certain color has a higher conversion. Or a CD has a layout in mind and the color of the item clashes with the other elements in the spread. Could just be a personal preference, which has happened to me several times. A color might not be available at the time of the shoot, but launch timelines dictate that they move forward with what they have.

smile

Nov 05 13 10:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,842
Chicago, Illinois, US


Jakov Markovic wrote:
(most cameras keep very little detail in blacks when you expose for skin) to white.

And it's lace on top of that-masking galore.

I made a blue-yellow-white tracksuit red and yellow for a crisps campaign, but this is actually advertising the skirt.

I understand where you guys are coming form, but try to get what I'm saying.

I'm having a difficult time understanding you and most anyone else that is having difficulty accepting the premise of changing tone and color, mostly because I've been doing it for a living for longer than I care to remember.

The very first time I had to change black hosiery to nude was in 1991, for an ad someone shot for Hanes. I lost the job because I couldn't figure out a way to accomplish the task, while a trade shop did accomplish it. That pissed me off, so I went about learning how to do that specific task. That's about the same time I started working with Dan Margulis, who helped me to learn work flows like that.

Masking that lace took me about three minutes. Convert the file to CMYK using a light black. The cyan channel is almost a perfect mask right out of the gate, and the black channel contains more detail than any of the RGB channels. Other than the fact that the original image supplied is a bit inferior, this little project was a cake walk.

I don't get your apprehension.

Nov 05 13 10:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,842
Chicago, Illinois, US


Jakov Markovic wrote:
I think it is legitimate to change colors of clothes and anything in the image, but I wonder why would anyone ask for a such a dramatic change on a product that they're trying to advertise? In my experience, loss of detail in going black to white is considerable.

There is no loss of detail when you do it correctly.

Nov 05 13 10:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leonard Gee Photography
Posts: 16,187
Sacramento, California, US


We don't generally ask a client why. Although sometimes suggestions about alternate solutions are discussed. My favorite is still the time I had to give a client a hair cut.

The client was a CEO of a bank. The print was from a 35mm B&W negative. Evidently the CEO did not feel like getting a $50 or $100 hair cut and take the time to have the picture re-shot before the annual report deadline (less than 24 hours left). This was before PS, so I made a dupe negative, etched and dyed the dupe negative and produced a new print with the hair cut. The cost was a tad bit more than a haircut and re-shoot by a factor of 10. Airbrushing might have been easier, but for the hair detail, the quality was better and I don't like paint on a print.

Doing the almost impossible jobs well makes for very happy clients and generates great buzz.
Nov 05 13 10:52 am  Link  Quote 
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