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Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,509
Los Angeles, California, US


marissa charles wrote:
I am NOT  agency standard runway model, but I do walk for many independent shows. I have walked regularly with tall as well as shorter, meaning 5'8 and under. What I see is that many of the standard runway girls are not abled to walk well or carry the clothes well. The shorter girls tend to be overall better walkers and look way better in the clothing. The  reason by Designers why they choose Tall is because they  say the clothes fit better. Not the case. I could include the fact that Black models are being used less and less also because the Designers think that the clothes won't suit them and in reality, I do find in many cases, the black models look better in the collections.
Contentious issue, but Fashion people come up with the lamest excuses.

When I've worked with shorter models on legitimate jobs, they tend to be a little better at modeling than the average agency stat girl. Why? Not because they are short, that has nothing to do with the ability. It's that without the heightened ability-- some natural, some learned-- they would have never been hired in the first place.


Taller or ideal-stat girls get a little more leeway.

So far as your tall unable to walk girls... well, I've walked very few legitimate shows where height didn't matter. The girls who fit the requirements and are experienced (and good) probably aren't walking open-height shows.

I'm not sure what makes you think one race "looks better" in clothing than others, but it's odd to state it like a fact.

I do wish the runways were more diverse.

Mar 05 14 11:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,877
London, England, United Kingdom


Garry k wrote:
Sometimes its a bit more than that ie the fickleness of certain designers . Here is an article reporting how upset designer Marc Jacobs was that 5'9 model Cara Delevine had attended the casting for one of his shows .Reportedly he called her a dwarf



http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/new … d=10891123

and I dont know if the tallest girl always wins in beauty pageants either ...A couple of years ago I met your Miss America Teresa Scanlan when one of our Canadian Designers ( Joseph Ribkoff ) flew her in to be a part of his Fashion Week presentation here ...I remember seeing her backstage amongst a group of our no name runway models for the show and thinking she looked somewhat out of place given that she was a couple of inches shorter than most of them . She has that pretty wholesome look though , and seemed to have a pleasant personality in conversing with her

.

Very interesting article. Cara is shorter than that I think. Am sure she is same as KM.But this highlights what I am trying to say. smile

Mar 06 14 01:36 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,877
London, England, United Kingdom


Sandra Vixen wrote:
I beg to differ, shorter people do not "walk better".

Height is really not an issue of how well you walk. How well you walk is a combination of your body proportions, muscle build, joint flexibility, bone lengths, center of gravity, and your kinesthetic locomotion (walking) skills.

The last being the most overlooked and under-trained.

I think the reason that you observe taller models not walking well, is that maybe they are new (newbies), they got in really easily because they were tall and got picked. But they lack training and experience.

I see a lot of posters of tall runway models about to fall over or break a bone because they can barely walk (as if they were 2 month olds). I mean, it was shocking.

Shorter models may have worked harder all their lives and had better movement training, I recently worked on a study that showed shorter children (girls) are 30-40 fold (3000%-4000%) more likely to be encouraged into physical activity and stay with it than compared to taller children (n > 900).



As you say,
height does not determine how well you can walk. My point. if a shorter girl can walk she should be booked. More diversity that is all. Not all models looking exactly the same.
Mar 06 14 01:42 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,877
London, England, United Kingdom


salvatori. wrote:
OP,

No matter what 'The Industry' does, I find your attitude as narrow-minded and offensive as 'The Industry' that you are condemning.

And I find it odd that you don't even possess the conviction to actually list your own ethnicity in your profile.

If you cannot tell what Ethnicity I am from my images then....

Mar 06 14 01:45 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,877
London, England, United Kingdom


Anna Adrielle wrote:

nah, come on, as a marketing professional you know that that's only partly true smile. It's not merely a bottom up process "oh, that's what the public wants to see so we give it to them"

Henry Ford always says it so much better than me: "if I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

+1

Mar 06 14 01:47 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Tara Tillman
Posts: 66
Port Jervis, New York, US


This is very sad.
I am 5"8 as well as African American; however this only makes me want it even more.
Mar 06 14 01:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Surreal Focus
Posts: 203
Montreal, Quebec, Canada


Sticking with the economics theme, if there is a true business opportunity for designers and those who sell fashion to cater specifically to shorter models, then maybe over time you would see greater diversity.  In  the absence of a strong, compelling economic reason for the current model standard to change - it won't.
Mar 06 14 01:56 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,877
London, England, United Kingdom


Surreal Focus wrote:
Sticking with the economics theme, if there is a true business opportunity for designers and those who sell fashion to cater specifically to shorter models, then maybe over time you would see greater diversity.  In  the absence of a strong, compelling economic reason for the current model standard to change - it won't.

.

Most people in the world are below 5'7

Mar 06 14 02:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Surreal Focus
Posts: 203
Montreal, Quebec, Canada


marissa charles wrote:
.

Most people in the world are below 5'7

And that means absolutely nothing to those who run this industry unless you show them that changing the existing model will generate more money for them.  If you have a successful business with one particular business model (pun not intended), would you take the risk of changing it?  Maybe you would, but convincing others to take that risk is a challenge to say the least.

Mar 06 14 02:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Philipe
Posts: 5,196
Pomona, California, US


marissa charles wrote:
I am NOT  agency standard runway model, but I do walk for many independent shows. I have walked regularly with tall as well as shorter, meaning 5'8 and under. What I see is that many of the standard runway girls are not abled to walk well or carry the clothes well. The shorter girls tend to be overall better walkers and look way better in the clothing. The  reason by Designers why they choose Tall is because they  say the clothes fit better. Not the case. I could include the fact that Black models are being used less and less also because the Designers think that the clothes won't suit them and in reality, I do find in many cases, the black models look better in the collections.
Contentious issue, but Fashion people come up with the lamest excuses.

I disagree with you saying that designer clothes do not look better on taller models.
Designer Azzedine Alaia loved the statuesque tall look of Naomi Campbell; which was one of his favorite models..
Meaning fashion designers love the statuesque look of a tall model, with long legs.
Shorter models can look unbalance with narrow shoulders, shorter legs.
In some cases shorter models can sometimes have larger heads in proportion to their body... I strongly disagree with you saying clothes would look better on a shorter model... Just look at whats been industry standard for decades...
Its not my choice (even though I like it) its just the way it is. Because, yes; on tall mighty looking woman in designer clothes look epic...   
Your also wrong on thinking runways shows use only tall models..

When in fact in 2010 in N.Y. tall a few tall woman where protesting N.Y. fashion week.
These were models that were over 6 feet tall saying they can't get work..

So its not about tall models. Its about being the right height...
If you too short, it's not going to work as well and its very rare and very few do runway.
If you too tall its even worst... They are not even considered. Some are not even on the map..

What you have is a personal opinion.. But its distorted. Top designers are not going to change and nor should they have to, because a few girls blame their height on the reason why they can't do runway and why they should. When in fact, if you have an exceptional look. They will make an exception.. Like Laetitia Casta a busty model who was only 5' 7" who did runway for Yves Saint Laurent, Jean Paul Gaultier..
I mention  Laetitia Casta (and not Kate Moss) because Laetitia Casta not only was shorter than industry standard but she had curves and boobs..
As far as black models, Yves Saint Laurent loved black models saying they are "exhilarating" and "It gives true meaning to the whole creation"..

Mar 06 14 03:06 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Ida Saint-Luc
Posts: 402
Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland


Le sigh

Just as a thought experiment: OP, you have agency-standard measurements. What would you say about a model who was great on the runway but had a couple of extra inches? Would you be as upset at the industry for the arbitrary bust-waist-hip measurements they require? Chances are, no.
Mar 06 14 03:49 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,319
London, England, United Kingdom


Danish delight wrote:
clothes looks better on tall skinny models...

Im not one.... dont want to be one...

But thats the facts.

That's not fact that's opinion. "Clothes look better on...." can never be a statement of fact, no matter how it ends.

Fashion prefers tall models and they don't really care about the opinions of most individuals is a fact.

Mar 06 14 04:05 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,319
London, England, United Kingdom


Ida Saint-Luc wrote:
Le sigh

Just as a thought experiment: OP, you have agency-standard measurements. What would you say about a model who was great on the runway but had a couple of extra inches? Would you be as upset at the industry for the arbitrary bust-waist-hip measurements they require? Chances are, no.

These moral crusades are almost always drenched in self interest, no matter how people try to dress them up as something else.

Mar 06 14 04:06 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Ida Saint-Luc
Posts: 402
Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland


JadeDRed wrote:
These moral crusades are almost always drenched in self interest, no matter how people try to dress them up as something else.

Srsly.

Mar 06 14 04:14 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 2,323
Muncie, Indiana, US


marissa charles wrote:

If you cannot tell what Ethnicity I am from my images then....

If someone is doing a search by ethnicity you won't be hired. The more information you include the better off you are. You are shooting yourself in the foot by putting n/a and 0.

Mar 06 14 04:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Amul La La
Posts: 793
Plymouth, England, United Kingdom


Well in the end genes can't be modified!
Mar 06 14 04:29 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,319
London, England, United Kingdom


Ida Saint-Luc wrote:

Srsly.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong in trying to shake things up a bit, people should knock themselves out if that's what they want to do. But people would get a lot more credit if they went about it in a positive manner instead of stamping their feet and demanding they get what they want and then acting like they are saint fighting some evil force.

Mar 06 14 04:32 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,319
London, England, United Kingdom


Amul La La wrote:
Well in the end genes can't be modified!

Yes they can!

I wouldn't recommend experimenting on ourselves though,

Mar 06 14 04:33 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,877
London, England, United Kingdom


Isis22 wrote:

If someone is doing a search by ethnicity you won't be hired. The more information you include the better off you are. You are shooting yourself in the foot by putting n/a and 0.

my agency gets me most of my paid work, so I am on here mainly for my personal work.

Mar 06 14 10:19 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,877
London, England, United Kingdom


JadeDRed wrote:

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong in trying to shake things up a bit, people should knock themselves out if that's what they want to do. But people would get a lot more credit if they went about it in a positive manner instead of stamping their feet and demanding they get what they want and then acting like they are saint fighting some evil force.

.

If Rosa Parks accepted what she thought was wrong........

Mar 06 14 10:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,261
San Diego, California, US


Longer arms, longer legs, longer neck etc. are all going to
add up to commanding a stronger stage presence. Simple.
Mar 06 14 11:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,412
Belmont, California, US


Evie Wolfe wrote:
If I were a designer, I'd book some street or contemporary dancers, so they could do something really cool and interesting for their end of runway posing!

Cool idea! And think of all the free PR it would generate.

Mar 06 14 12:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAVfoto
Posts: 2,324
New York, New York, US


marissa charles wrote:
I am NOT  agency standard runway model, but I do walk for many independent shows. I have walked regularly with tall as well as shorter, meaning 5'8 and under. What I see is that many of the standard runway girls are not abled to walk well or carry the clothes well. The shorter girls tend to be overall better walkers and look way better in the clothing. The  reason by Designers why they choose Tall is because they  say the clothes fit better. Not the case. I could include the fact that Black models are being used less and less also because the Designers think that the clothes won't suit them and in reality, I do find in many cases, the black models look better in the collections.
Contentious issue, but Fashion people come up with the lamest excuses.

I'm going to make this as blunt as possible. It has been this way for a while, it works, it looks good and they fit the sizes that the designers can afford to make for samples.  Simple as that, leave it the fuck alone.

Mar 06 14 12:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Philipe
Posts: 5,196
Pomona, California, US


DAVfoto wrote:

I'm going to make this as blunt as possible. It has been this way for a while, it works, it looks good and they fit the sizes that the designers can afford to make for samples.  Simple as that, leave it the fuck alone.

Thank you

Mar 06 14 02:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 3,857
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


DAVfoto wrote:

I'm going to make this as blunt as possible. It has been this way for a while, it works, it looks good and they fit the sizes that the designers can afford to make for samples.  Simple as that, leave it the fuck alone.

lol

Mar 06 14 03:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Fisher
Posts: 1,823
Miami Beach, Florida, US


Philipe wrote:
They will make an exception.. Like Laetitia Casta a busty model who was only 5' 7" who did runway for Yves Saint Laurent, Jean Paul Gaultier..
I mention  Laetitia Casta (and not Kate Moss) because Laetitia Casta not only was shorter than industry standard but she had curves and boobs..

Any conversation that invokes a mention of Laetitia Casta is a great conversation. Thank you, Philipe!

http://www.johnfisher.com/images/l127.jpg
I met Laetitia a few years ago when she was in South Beach, and as this Victoria's Secret catalog shot would suggest, I'm pretty sure even 5'7 would be a stretch!

Okay, accepting the given that most of the models on a major fashion runway are between 5'9 and 5'11.5, it's not always true. It's not that unusual to see a 5'8 or even 5'7 girl (again, not the majority, but they are there), and some of it has to do with how the models are chosen for the big shows.

When you are talking about say Dolce and Gabbana, Cavalli, Gaultier, Elie Saab, etc. often one of the requirements to be sent to the castings is that you have to have editorial tears. So a model that has made a splash editorially (and can walk) might be picked up even if they are a little shorter than the standard height. Sasha Pivovarova is an example of a model that isn't 5'9, but does a lot of major runway work, and there are others.

Body proportions play a major roll in this, thin, unusually long legs add to the impression of height. I worked with a model that had a strong editorial book, and wound up walking fashion week in Milan even though she was 5'6.5 (listed by every agency that represented her as either 5'8 or 5'9). But, she did look at least 5'8 because of her unusual body proportions. (And she could walk, really walk, it was amazing! She always wore heels and always walked like she was on a runway.)

And at the major shows the models, regardless of height, can walk. When you actually see a big show (and here in South Beach we do get Fashion TV, so we are currently watching all the major fashion week shows world wide), one thing that really catches your eye is how beautifully all the models walk for the major designers.  Now you do see some of the very young girls walking the second tier shows who occasionally look a little lost in space, but by the time they get to bigs, that's in their past.

Height is a major consideration for fashion runway, but it is a much more complicated selection process than thinking about height alone. Designers see the runway as part of their total marketing effort, coordinating it with editorial exposure and print advertising campaigns. It is not unusual for a model to break through editorially, then appear in the major runway shows, and then finally receiving the big payoff of being featured in the designer's print ad campaigns.

John

--
John Fisher
900 West Avenue, Suite 633
Miami Beach, Florida 330139
(305) 534-9322
http://www.johnfisher.com

Mar 06 14 07:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Craig Staples
Posts: 260
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I know I am going to get flamed for this...but rather than arguing that designers should use more models of varying ethnicity and height. Perhaps the design houses are using models that best fit the demographic of the people buying their clothes.
If Gucci or Versace, Armani, whoever sells 90% of their haute couture line to  fairly tall white women then I am guessing they will predominantly use tall white models, if it were a largely average height plus sized Asian demographic the majority of models used would be average height plus sized Asians.
Mar 06 14 08:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
udor
Posts: 21,808
New York, New York, US


Surreal Focus wrote:
Sticking with the economics theme, if there is a true business opportunity for designers and those who sell fashion to cater specifically to shorter models, then maybe over time you would see greater diversity.  In  the absence of a strong, compelling economic reason for the current model standard to change - it won't.

It is just sad that some things never change... so many "models" think that modeling, being signed and doing runway is a right and not a privilege!

marissa charles wrote:
.

Most people in the world are below 5'7

Why runway shows need tall models:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/UdoRPhotoArchive/Miscellaneous/ModelHeights02.jpg



Marissa, runway shows, except those meat-market entertainment events in bars and clubs, are about the clothes and not about the feelings and aspiration of the fragile model's ego!!!

Mar 07 14 03:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,363
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


udor wrote:
Marissa, runway show, except those meat-market entertainment events in bars and clubs, are about the clothes and not about the feelings and aspiration of the fragile model's ego!!!

The

Bottom

Line

Mar 07 14 03:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,363
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


marissa charles wrote:

.

Most people in the world are below 5'7

So...?

Mar 07 14 03:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,363
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


marissa charles wrote:

.

If Rosa Parks accepted what she thought was wrong........

Now, THIS is priceless!

Mar 07 14 03:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Peters Fotografie
Posts: 1,058
Tucson, Arizona, US


Anna Adrielle wrote:
I' agree with 1, 4 and 5. But the other ones...

2 &3 . stage height has very little to do with it. row 24, without elevation, can see the models heads at best, whether the designer uses midgets or giants. Fashionshows with that many rows will most likely have seats that go up as you sit further away, with the runway at the lowest poi

6. there are many, MANY olympic sports where you pretty much HAVE to be tall in order to be succesful. Jumping, swimming, basketball, volleyball, longdistance iceskating, to name a few. The requirements to be an olympic athlete have very little to do with the requirements to be a succesful runway model, so it's completely irrelevant.

7. beauty pageant contestants tend to be on the short side (not model-height anyway). For women, being shorter than the average male is an attractive and feminine quality. Beauty pageant contests also, in general, look for a completely different type of look than the fashion industry does. You can't really compare beauty pageants with fashion runway shows...

I don't always explain myself perfectly, forgive me for that. 
it doesn't matter what row it is, you're going to see the dress better on a taller model, from any row.  if the walkway is not elevated, you can't see the dress on a short model from row 3.

I was comparing body movement of gymnast to runway models, not any other athlete, or the success of any type of sport.  there are no tall gymnast, male or female, period.  because they cannot flex.  the taller humans become, the less movement is possible. 

I was not comparing beauty pageant looks to runway models.  more often than not, the tallest wins a pageant, probably because of their more commanding presence.  and many many pageant contestants also do runway, it is very common.

Mar 07 14 04:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,774
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Craig Staples wrote:
I know I am going to get flamed for this...but rather than arguing that designers should use more models of varying ethnicity and height. Perhaps the design houses are using models that best fit the demographic of the people buying their clothes.
If Gucci or Versace, Armani, whoever sells 90% of their haute couture line to  fairly tall white women then I am guessing they will predominantly use tall white models, if it were a largely average height plus sized Asian demographic the majority of models used would be average height plus sized Asians.

And of course that is not happening

Globally speaking Japan and China are ranked number 1 and 2 respectively in terms of nations that consume luxury goods ( which of course includes high end fashion )

and even in those markets - White Caucasian Models are over represented

Mar 07 14 08:44 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 2,323
Muncie, Indiana, US


Garry k wrote:

And of course that is not happening

Globally speaking Japan and China are ranked number 1 and 2 respectively in terms of nations that consume luxury goods ( which of course includes high end fashion )

and even in those markets - White Caucasian Models are over represented

Asian markets do not WANT Asian models. They want Caucasian models. Do you have any idea how much beauty products that lighten the skin sell there? My sister who is blonde with green eyes was mobbed when she went to Mexico. People often want what they are not.

Mar 07 14 01:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,774
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Isis22 wrote:
Asian markets do not WANT Asian models. They want Caucasian models. Do you have any idea how much beauty products that lighten the skin sell there? My sister who is blonde with green eyes was mobbed when she went to Mexico. People often want what they are not.

redacted

Mar 07 14 01:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 2,323
Muncie, Indiana, US


Garry k wrote:

I think you need to understand that  what I wrote was in response to Mr Staples assertion that

"Design Houses use  models that best fit the demographic of the people buying their clothes"

It is a good thing to read the thread to understand the context in which entries are made

smile

I was agreeing with you.

Mar 07 14 02:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,774
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Isis22 wrote:
I was agreeing with you.

Fair enough ,I misunderstood - My apologies and I will redact what I have written

Mar 07 14 02:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MDWM
Posts: 537
Los Angeles, California, US


OP, some things just aren't going to change especially during your modeling career. You're 5'8 and beautiful! You have more opportunities than most...take advantage of them.
Mar 07 14 04:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shon D.- Femme
Posts: 24,369
Virginia Beach, Virginia, US


You did not just compare racism in the fashion industry to a 5'9" height requirement...
Mar 07 14 04:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
udor
Posts: 21,808
New York, New York, US


Shon D.- Femme wrote:
You did not just compare racism in the fashion industry to a 5'9" height requirement...

... after all, she is the Rosa Parks of fashion... wink

Mar 07 14 04:44 pm  Link  Quote 
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