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Photographer
Fred Greissing
Posts: 6,326
Los Angeles, California, US


One of the things that makes photography great is how it can be used in it's simplicity to
be of huge influence.

I find that many photographers who's work is really iconic are very good at using photography in it's simplicity.

No retouching, no complicated lighting, no "canned" composition rules.

Rarely do iconic images respect the rules or are particularly elaborate.

The iconic image of Twiggy taken by Barry Lategan is IMO a very good example of this.

http://youtu.be/5_LOqgiNMRw

Another image that IMO is a good example of how photography can be so rich when in it's simplest form are Peter Lindbergh's portraits.

http://buy-books.ru/img_cache/img002/ge … dbergh.jpg

While many art forms require so much time to "capture" photography is near instant.
That gives it a special quality. A reality that other art forms have difficulty captivating.

The incredible work of Vermeer is ...... well it needs no praise.

He in a sense was the worlds first great photographer though photography was not around yet.

I highly recommend the film Tim's Vermeer.

and this:    for fun, but it's true too

http://youtu.be/18wmonxTjX0
Mar 07 14 10:28 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 21,130
New York, New York, US


I have tickets to see it tonight!
Mar 07 14 10:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,842
Chicago, Illinois, US


Any list that would place Stieglitz and Steichen well below the likes of Weber and Richardson, just can’t be taken seriously. I appreciate the links to some great photography, but gee whiz???
Mar 07 14 10:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
barepixels
Posts: 2,908
San Diego, California, US


anyone can make few great photos in a lifetime.  anyone who does this consistently is a "great photographer"
Mar 07 14 10:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,842
Chicago, Illinois, US


Fred Greissing wrote:
The iconic image of Twiggy taken by Barry Lategan is IMO a very good example of this.

http://youtu.be/5_LOqgiNMRw

I attended a lecture at the Art Institute, during which the guest lecturer went on ad nauseam about his efforts to make iconic portraiture. I won't mention names because I don't want to start a s&*t storm, but I'm very often amazed at people's perceptions of themselves and the world they live in. This guy went on for over ten minutes, describing in agonizing detail the blood sweat and tears he employed to make sure his portraits were perceived as introspective, iconic, fill in the blanks with whatever stupid adjective you can think of. He would show a progression of images in which the subject was staring at the camera. He described with an unbelievable command of vocabulary, the emotions and nuance he saw in every single frame leading up to the one he felt was definitive.

He said that when you get to the point that you think you've arrived at your final image, you need to stretch further than you ever have before, to gain that pinnacle of success in portraiture, the truly perfect portrait. Every single frame he showed was simply a repeat of the first frame. Every frame contained a picture of the subject staring at the camera. I could have taken every picture he showed with my eyes closed.

Barry Lategan was in the right place at the right time, giving him the opportunity to shoot what was to become one of the most famous models that ever lived. He did a really good job of focusing on her face, the light was nice, and her head and shoulders filled the frame well. All said, the PPA might give him a merit award for a job nicely done. Having to listen to 5 minutes of his description of the wonderful things he sees in that picture, is just ponderous. It's a shame he's such a bloated load of crap, because up until now, I have always liked the picture.

Mar 07 14 10:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 21,130
New York, New York, US


Robert Randall wrote:
Any list that would place Stieglitz and Steichen well below the likes of Weber and Richardson, just can’t be taken seriously. I appreciate the links to some great photography, but gee whiz???

Agreed. But I still think it's valuable as a departure point for exploration by those who are unaware of who they are.

And their claim (the list authors) that say that Cindy Sherman was on the vanguard of bringing photography into the realm of fine art, shows how little they too actually know about both of them (Stieglitz & Steichen).

Mar 07 14 11:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
I did, however, find this list of "The 100 Most Influential Photographers of all Time"

I agree with 21 or so of them.

Mar 07 14 12:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fred Greissing
Posts: 6,326
Los Angeles, California, US


Robert Randall wrote:
Barry Lategan was in the right place at the right time, giving him the opportunity to shoot what was to become one of the most famous models that ever lived. He did a really good job of focusing on her face, the light was nice, and her head and shoulders filled the frame well. All said, the PPA might give him a merit award for a job nicely done. Having to listen to 5 minutes of his description of the wonderful things he sees in that picture, is just ponderous. It's a shame he's such a bloated load of crap, because up until now, I have always liked the picture.

Wow... how much hate. How is it you sat through 5 minutes ....
The whole video is 1 min 40s.....

Barry Lategan had a huge effect of fashion and editorial fashion photography.
He was the first photographer to photograph models that were not the stereotypical extreeme beauty. It was Barry Lategan that saw the beauty in the modest simplicity of Twiggy. He was instrumental to her success pushing to use her in his work for Vogue. He put her on multiple covers. In a world with endless easy to shoot tall beauties he chose to put his weight behind a cut little girl 5'6".
Personality over sheer physical looks.

Your statement "Barry Lategan was in the right place at the right time, giving him the opportunity to shoot what was to become one of the most famous models that ever lived" ..... typical comment of those that are jealous of others success.

Barry Lategan shot for years for Vogue...

and more

HRH Princess Anne, Paul and Linda McCartney, Iman, Germaine Greer, Calvin Klein, Sol Campbell, John Major, Margaret Thatcher and Salman Rushdie are just a few of the famous faces that have appeared in front of his lens. His career as a fashion photographer has also seen much of his work make it to the pages and front covers of international editions of Vogue and Harpers Bazaar and he won the Halina award for the 1986 Pirelli calendar. Other plaudits include a Clio Award for a TV commercial for Armani perfume and a D&AD Award for the Millennium stamp.

His commercials... some of them

http://youtu.be/YV3nzUVJKcY

Olympus commercial featuring him.

A BBC documentary about him.

http://youtu.be/mItrjVj1SGA

He is one of the more modest and soft spoken photographers I have ever met.

To refer to him like this:

Robert Randall wrote:
It's a shame he's such a bloated load of crap

A few notes from the Royal Photographic Society's prestigious annual awards ceremony in London when he received their highest award in 2007.

Read more: http://www.southafrica.info/about/arts/ … z2vMUa90R8

"Lategan's photographs have been published worldwide in Vogue, Harpers Bazaar, Elle, Marie Claire and Life.
His subjects have included Iman, Princess Anne, Calvin Klein, Jackie Bisset, Paul and Linda McCartney, David Bailey, Jean Shrimpton, Penelope Tree, Germaine Greer, Paloma Picasso, Lauren Hutton, Salman Rushdie, Margaux Hemingway, Marie Helvin, Bianca Jagger, and Jerry Hall.
His work has been exhibited and retained in the Victoria & Albert Museum, The National Portrait Gallery, Tate Modern, the South African National Gallery and the University of Santa Barbara. He has also received numerous prestigious American and British Awards."

Mar 07 14 05:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fred Greissing
Posts: 6,326
Los Angeles, California, US


Robert Randall wrote:
I could have taken every picture he showed with my eyes closed.

So you attend a lecture by a photographer, you trash him and then claim you could have taken every picture he did with your eyes closed.

Who is the photographer.... you should name him seeing yo claim to be far better than him (or her) even "blindfolded"

Let's see you are trashing and claiming to be far better than...

Mar 07 14 05:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAVfoto
Posts: 2,324
New York, New York, US


but of cat pussy fights in this forum and it's starting to get old...
Mar 07 14 06:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18,135
Orlando, Florida, US


Natalia_Taffarel wrote:

What discussion? There are no great photographers?

I can name 10 of the too of my head.

How can you say there are no great photographers when so many have already made history?

great is subjective

Mar 07 14 06:05 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 21,130
New York, New York, US


Side Note:

I saw Tim's Vemeer.  He may have been the first photographer, albeit in a non-traditional sense.

GREAT movie!!!!  Definitely worth seeing by all.
Mar 07 14 06:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L A U B E N H E I M E R
Posts: 8,546
Seattle, Washington, US


Fred Greissing wrote:
The iconic image of Twiggy taken by Barry Lategan is IMO a very good example of this.

http://youtu.be/5_LOqgiNMRw

ok.  i just watched the video. i like his voice.

but who is Rene Saunce?

Mar 07 14 06:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fred Greissing
Posts: 6,326
Los Angeles, California, US


L A U B E N H E I M E R wrote:
ok.  i just watched the video. i like his voice.

but who is Rene Saunce?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance

He's South African... maybe a bit of south african pronounciation creeping in...

I think he would like your work...

Mar 07 14 07:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Digital Kythe Image
Posts: 313
Deerfield Beach, Florida, US


To be an artist, to be a photographer you have to nurture the things that most people discard. You have to keep them alive in order to tap them. Its been important to me my whole life not to let go of the things that most people would throw into the trash can. I have to be in touch with my virgility, with the man in me, the woman in me, the child in me, the grandfather in me. All these things have to be kept alive.

I think I photograph what I’m afraid of. Things that I couldn’t deal with without the camera: My father’s death, madness, when I was young women I didn’t understand. It gave me a sort of control over the situation that was legitimate because good work was being done. And by photographing what I was afraid of I explored, and learned and laid the ghost. It got out of my system and onto the page.
~ Richard Avedon

This sums it up for me. Of course everything quoted from the OP is true and to become a great photographer, artist, painter, etc., one does need to know and have a background/knowledge of the arts following the principles and theories. Having the passion, devotion and time, too helps the process. Knowing what you want to envision and creating it effectively truly makes one great.

I listen to Avedon's documentary time to time and how he explains his photographs and meaning behind the capture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1f3egvLwVE

DK
Mar 07 14 07:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TJ Photo
Posts: 84
Pomona, California, US


Julian  W I L D E wrote:
A Great Photographer is one who creates Great Images.  In the most important ways... it's that simple.   It doesn't matter that the Photographer is "famous" or that his work was "published" or that images a,b and c were seen by x number of people.  Without any fanfare, without any pretext, even without the long view of history... greatness, like love or compassion or beauty, it is what it is. -JULIAN


Jeez, another non-definition with circular language, which tells us absolutely nothing.  If you aren't prepared to define what is "great," then this statement is just nonsense.  It's pointless to say "a great photographer creates great images" if you can't define what's great.  Like "it is what it is," another classic circular nonsense statement that's now used by those who simply can't articulate what they're thinking so they say what amounts to "whatever!". 

Ah, but since you've posted one of your images, I guess you're nominating yourself as a great photographer to flesh out the definition.  How immodest.
Mar 07 14 07:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,842
Chicago, Illinois, US


Fred Greissing wrote:

Robert Randall wrote:
Barry Lategan was in the right place at the right time, giving him the opportunity to shoot what was to become one of the most famous models that ever lived. He did a really good job of focusing on her face, the light was nice, and her head and shoulders filled the frame well. All said, the PPA might give him a merit award for a job nicely done. Having to listen to 5 minutes of his description of the wonderful things he sees in that picture, is just ponderous. It's a shame he's such a bloated load of crap, because up until now, I have always liked the picture.

Wow... how much hate. How is it you sat through 5 minutes ....
The whole video is 1 min 40s.....


Barry Lategan had a huge effect of fashion and editorial fashion photography.
He was the first photographer to photograph models that were not the stereotypical extreeme beauty. It was Barry Lategan that saw the beauty in the modest simplicity of Twiggy. He was instrumental to her success pushing to use her in his work for Vogue. He put her on multiple covers. In a world with endless easy to shoot tall beauties he chose to put his weight behind a cut little girl 5'6".
Personality over sheer physical looks.

Your statement "Barry Lategan was in the right place at the right time, giving him the opportunity to shoot what was to become one of the most famous models that ever lived" ..... typical comment of those that are jealous of others success.

Barry Lategan shot for years for Vogue...

and more


His commercials... some of them

http://youtu.be/YV3nzUVJKcY

Olympus commercial featuring him.

A BBC documentary about him.

http://youtu.be/mItrjVj1SGA

He is one of the more modest and soft spoken photographers I have ever met.

To refer to him like this:

[qoute=Robert Randall]
It's a shame he's such a bloated load of crap

Fred Greissing wrote:
is..... well I say no more

I live for the day you actually say no more.

"5 minutes" was a placeholder for the eternity it felt like it took while I watched that pile of self-aggrandising garbage. You confuse hate with contempt. You confuse one specific statement regarding a bullshit video with a perception of something that isn't there. While he might be modest and soft spoken, he also is one of the sales clerks attending the emperor while shopping for his new wardrobe.


Here's the deal... I think people that say so much about the meaning of something as simple as that portrait, are generally full of crap. It wouldn't bother me if the audience was a bunch of socialite divas, because everyone knows they expect to hear a load of crap. But it's you, supporting a load of crap in here, in a transparent attempt to be held in higher esteem, all the while misleading the people reading the crap you spew. There is nothing magical about the process in that picture. There is nothing metaphysical about that picture. There is nothing transcendent about that picture. It doesn't need any more description other than to say it's a nice picture. Only a shill with an agenda would believe anything more than that.

But, you do have to admit one thing; I gave you yet another opportunity to name drop. I'm actually surprised you didn't post up some of your head shots for more ink.

Mar 07 14 08:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,842
Chicago, Illinois, US


Fred Greissing wrote:

So you attend a lecture by a photographer, you trash him and then claim you could have taken every picture he did with your eyes closed.

Who is the photographer.... you should name him seeing yo claim to be far better than him (or her) even "blindfolded"

Let's see you are trashing and claiming to be far better than...

I wasn't trashing his pictures, I was trashing his elitist attitude, but you already knew that.

There is no skill or magic in making someone stare blankly into a camera lens, and yes, I could do that with my eyes closed. I would think you could too, but then again, you don't seem to think much of what I think.

You know, come to think of it, it's quite possible that for some photographers, the only thing they are capable of capturing in a portrait, is a blank stare. I never considered that one. Maybe when one of those blank stare kind of guys tries to do something emotionally more exciting, they wind up with pictures of people sticking their tongue out, like Miley Cyrus. Or even that split fingers across the eye cliche thing that John Travolta made so popular in Pulp fiction. I can't even imagine how embarrassing it must be to produce work like that. Guys like that should stick to the dead stare... it's safer.

Maybe you could call your lawyer and have him compel me to tell you who I was dissing.


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e372/mrpoodledoo/36_12_6.gif

Mar 07 14 08:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bare Essential Photos
Posts: 3,322
Upland, California, US


When a photographer can stimulate emotions in viewers that previously didn't exist in them or cause one to reflect on an important subject matter.

Of course, I have Helmut Newton in mind.
Mar 07 14 09:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LA StarShooter
Posts: 1,818
Los Angeles, California, US


Robert Randall wrote:

I wasn't trashing his pictures, I was trashing his elitist attitude, but you already knew that.

There is no skill or magic in making someone stare blankly into a camera lens, and yes, I could do that with my eyes closed. I would think you could too, but then again, you don't seem to think much of what I think.

You know, come to think of it, it's quite possible that for some photographers, the only thing they are capable of capturing in a portrait, is a blank stare. I never considered that one. Maybe when one of those blank stare kind of guys tries to do something emotionally more exciting, they wind up with pictures of people sticking their tongue out, like Miley Cyrus. Or even that split fingers across the eye cliche thing that John Travolta made so popular in Pulp fiction. I can't even imagine how embarrassing it must be to produce work like that. Guys like that should stick to the dead stare... it's safer.

Maybe you could call your lawyer and have him compel me to tell you who I was dissing.


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e372/mrpoodledoo/36_12_6.gif

RR, Have you considered that your comments may be considered elitist and self-promoting, even more than placing a photo on a post.

Mar 07 14 09:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Zack Zoll
Posts: 2,379
Glens Falls, New York, US


I have to agree wholeheartedly with the idea that Lategan was in the right place at the right time.  The best explanation I can give is a comparison to Yousuf Karsh.  Like Lategan, Karsh's 'big break' came when he had an opportunity to photograph a world-renown celebrity(in this case, Winston Churchill), which lead to other huge assignments and a career in Vogue/Bazaar/etc.

The difference between them is that Lategan is best known for photographing Twiggy, while Karsh is best known as a really good photographer that happened to photograph Churchill.

If your best-known work was your 'big break', that doesn't make you a great photographer.  That makes you a good photographer that was lucky enough to score an amazing assignment.

I would also disagree with the idea that Vermeer was the first Western 'photographer' - I would give that title to Jan Van Eyck, who predates Vermeer by about 200 years.  There is a theory(which I strongly believe) that The Arnolfini Portrait was created with the aid of the camera obscura, as there would have been no other way to observe the effects of the convex mirror in the back of the room without one's own reflection blocking the view of the betrothed couple.  Of course you could stand to the side, but then the image would be warped, and it(presumably) would have been painted differently.  I discuss this work in detail in my history lectures for my photography classes for just this reason.

Vermeer, and The Milkmaid in particular have a well-earned reputation as some of the earliest examples of photo-realism.  I attended a lecture given by Uta Barth, where she spoke extensively about that image, and about how much it influenced her own work - to the point where large swaths of her repertoire is essentially images of the room from The Milkmaid, only empty.  And she was awarded a MacArthur Genius grant for it, so it's obviously still relevant work.

But Van Eyck was still the first, at least in my book.

Also ... the more I talk about painting, the more I wish that my teaching load included an art history class.  I wonder if I can make that happen.
Mar 07 14 09:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,842
Chicago, Illinois, US


LA StarShooter wrote:

RR, Have you considered that your comments may be considered elitist and self-promoting, even more than placing a photo on a post.

Not really, I've always had an issue with bull. It's possible that in attacking it, some of it gets me dirty. I can live with that.

Mar 07 14 09:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Zack Zoll
Posts: 2,379
Glens Falls, New York, US


LA StarShooter wrote:
RR, Have you considered that your comments may be considered elitist and self-promoting, even more than placing a photo on a post.

Elitist, perhaps.  Self-promoting, never.

Mar 07 14 09:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Randall
Posts: 13,842
Chicago, Illinois, US


Zack Zoll wrote:
I have to agree wholeheartedly with the idea that Lategan was in the right place at the right time.  The best explanation I can give is a comparison to Yousuf Karsh.  Like Lategan, Karsh's 'big break' came when he had an opportunity to photograph a world-renown celebrity(in this case, Winston Churchill), which lead to other huge assignments and a career in Vogue/Bazaar/etc.

The difference between them is that Lategan is best known for photographing Twiggy, while Karsh is best known as a really good photographer that happened to photograph Churchill.

If your best-known work was your 'big break', that doesn't make you a great photographer.  That makes you a good photographer that was lucky enough to score an amazing assignment.

Interesting observation. I had never heard of Lategan until I clicked Fred's video link, although I had seen the picture of Twiggy prior to the link. While I do view Karsh as an exceptional photographer, I can't really disparage Lategan's work, because I don't know it. My only point was that the excess rhetoric used to describe Twiggy, wasn't necessary. Also, while it's interesting to look at the Twiggy portrait for a few seconds, I could stare at the Churchill portrait for quite a while, and never look away due to boredom.

Mar 07 14 09:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Julian W I L D E
Posts: 1,824
Portland, Oregon, US


TJ Photo wrote:

Julian  W I L D E wrote:
A Great Photographer is one who creates Great Images.  In the most important ways... it's that simple.   It doesn't matter that the Photographer is "famous" or that his work was "published" or that images a,b and c were seen by x number of people.  Without any fanfare, without any pretext, even without the long view of history... greatness, like love or compassion or beauty, it is what it is. -JULIAN


Jeez, another non-definition with circular language, which tells us absolutely nothing.  If you aren't prepared to define what is "great," then this statement is just nonsense.  It's pointless to say "a great photographer creates great images" if you can't define what's great.  Like "it is what it is," another classic circular nonsense statement that's now used by those who simply can't articulate what they're thinking so they say what amounts to "whatever!". 

Ah, but since you've posted one of your images, I guess you're nominating yourself as a great photographer to flesh out the definition.  How immodest.

I think unless you can back it up with an image... its ALL just talk.  And as they say "Talk is Cheap."

I would also add that a "great photographer" must be More than a "photographer."  Anyone can "push the button."  Anyone can recognize the profoundly beautiful.  The Great Photographer has be be something of a Stylist and a Visionary.  You must be able to do more than "capture."  To my mind, the Great Photographer does more than "sees"... he must invision and to some extent create. For this reason, except for rare occasions, I consider the general run of Celebrity Photography to be essentially lame.

If anything... I'd like to propose the idea that not all "greatness" exists in the history books and not all "greatness" lies in the pages of Vogue.  I submit that it can be found everywhere.  Even in places that we hadn't even thought of... And if I had to throw another hat into the ring...even at the price of being thought immodest,  I'd probably toss this one in.

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z259/ravensblend/4dff76ad-c16b-4882-b487-8e28d77b4590_zpsc4bd869e.jpg

Mar 07 14 09:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L A U B E N H E I M E R
Posts: 8,546
Seattle, Washington, US


Julian  W I L D E wrote:
I think unless you can back it up with an image... its ALL just talk.  And as they say "Talk is Cheap."

i agree.

Mar 07 14 10:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Zack Zoll
Posts: 2,379
Glens Falls, New York, US


Robert Randall wrote:

Interesting observation. I had never heard of Lategan until I clicked Fred's video link, although I had seen the picture of Twiggy prior to the link. While I do view Karsh as an exceptional photographer, I can't really disparage Lategan's work, because I don't know it. My only point was that the excess rhetoric used to describe Twiggy, wasn't necessary. Also, while it's interesting to look at the Twiggy portrait for a few seconds, I could stare at the Churchill portrait for quite a while, and never look away due to boredom.

I'm not nearly as huge of a Karsh fan as I used to be - not because I think less of him, but because I've been exposed to so much more work.  That said, his portrait of George Bernard Shaw is still one of my favourite images.

http://www.all-about-photo.com/images/P … 0-V-12.jpg

I'm not saying that Lategan couldn't reliably produce work like that.  I'm saying that he didn't.  If you Google 'Barry Lategan', almost every link mentions Twiggy, and several of the links are actually for sites about Twiggy.  That's the very definition of a one-hit wonder.

Mar 07 14 10:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fred Greissing
Posts: 6,326
Los Angeles, California, US


Zack Zoll wrote:

I'm not nearly as huge of a Karsh fan as I used to be - not because I think less of him, but because I've been exposed to so much more work.  That said, his portrait of George Bernard Shaw is still one of my favourite images.

http://www.all-about-photo.com/images/P … 0-V-12.jpg

I'm not saying that Lategan couldn't reliably produce work like that.  I'm saying that he didn't.  If you Google 'Barry Lategan', almost every link mentions Twiggy, and several of the links are actually for sites about Twiggy.  That's the very definition of a one-hit wonder.

Barry Lategan a one hit wonder?

Lets see..

Chanel perfume commercials.
Borsalino commercials.
Numerous Vogue covers.
Featured in an Olympus commercial.
Commercials and stills for commercial clients including giants like Johnson and Johnson.
Pirelli Calander.
Portraits of Royalty.
Paul McCartney and Linda McCartney
Testimonials for Ilford.
BBC documentary... back when there were only 3 channels and being featured on TV meant something.

Comes from relatively modest background. Taught himself photography while in Military service.

Mar 07 14 11:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TJ Photo
Posts: 84
Pomona, California, US


Sorry, failed edit...please continue...
Mar 08 14 12:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TJ Photo
Posts: 84
Pomona, California, US


Mar 08 14 12:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TJ Photo
Posts: 84
Pomona, California, US


Julian  W I L D E wrote:

TJ Photo wrote:

Julian  W I L D E wrote:
A Great Photographer is one who creates Great Images.  In the most important ways... it's that simple.   It doesn't matter that the Photographer is "famous" or that his work was "published" or that images a,b and c were seen by x number of people.  Without any fanfare, without any pretext, even without the long view of history... greatness, like love or compassion or beauty, it is what it is. -JULIAN


Jeez, another non-definition with circular language, which tells us absolutely nothing.  If you aren't prepared to define what is "great," then this statement is just nonsense.  It's pointless to say "a great photographer creates great images" if you can't define what's great.  Like "it is what it is," another classic circular nonsense statement that's now used by those who simply can't articulate what they're thinking so they say what amounts to "whatever!". 

Ah, but since you've posted one of your images, I guess you're nominating yourself as a great photographer to flesh out the definition.  How immodest.

I think unless you can back it up with an image... its ALL just talk.  And as they say "Talk is Cheap."

I would also add that a "great photographer" must be More than a "photographer."  Anyone can "push the button."  Anyone can recognize the profoundly beautiful.  The Great Photographer has be be something of a Stylist and a Visionary.  You must be able to do more than "capture."  To my mind, the Great Photographer does more than "sees"... he must invision and to some extent create. For this reason, except for rare occasions, I consider the general run of Celebrity Photography to be essentially lame.

If anything... I'd like to propose the idea that not all "greatness" exists in the history books and not all "greatness" lies in the pages of Vogue.  I submit that it can be found everywhere.  Even in places that we hadn't even thought of... And if I had to throw another hat into the ring...even at the price of being thought immodest,  I'd probably toss this one in.




TJ Photo reply:

I couldn't figure out how to reply without featuring your big image again. Oh well, here it is....


Yes, talk is definitely cheap, as is ego which is no proof of greatness by any definition. No one else here seems to be proposing greatness for themselves, so I'm not sure what needs backing up.  I just questioned your previous post for its failure to define greatness, which remains the big unanswered question in this thread. Though you didn't bother accepting that your earlier definition was no definition of greatness at all, at least you made a rough attempt at circling around a definition this time while doubling down on the immodesty.

Greatness in art certainly has to do with vision and a compelling creation that goes far beyond the ordinary, expressing the most profound human ideas and emotions in a powerful way.  Do you find fault with that way of defining greatness?

Mar 08 14 12:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fred Greissing
Posts: 6,326
Los Angeles, California, US


Robert Randall wrote:
Here's the deal... I think people that say so much about the meaning of something as simple as that portrait, are generally full of crap. It wouldn't bother me if the audience was a bunch of socialite divas, because everyone knows they expect to hear a load of crap. But it's you, supporting a load of crap in here, in a transparent attempt to be held in higher esteem, all the while misleading the people reading the crap you spew. There is nothing magical about the process in that picture. There is nothing metaphysical about that picture. There is nothing transcendent about that picture. It doesn't need any more description other than to say it's a nice picture. Only a shill with an agenda would believe anything more than that.

But, you do have to admit one thing; I gave you yet another opportunity to name drop. I'm actually surprised you didn't post up some of your head shots for more ink.

So who exactly am I a shill for?

What is it that brings you to tear apart a photographer like Barry Lategan, one of the top 10 fashion photographers of the 60s and 70s, and why so offensively.... and later you say you had never heard of him. Throwing such venom out at an man that is many years our senior.

Here is one thing for to think about.
Twiggy became a supermodel. Many say the first supermodel.
So she worked with many of the great photographers of her time... yet it is through Barry Lategan's photos that she is remembered today and not only her first images with him.

I think it is safe to say that Grace Coddington is one of the greats of the Fashion World. She thought the world of Barry Lategan. They worked together many years...

Here is an article that describes some of their collaboration.

http://moreintelligentlife.com/content/ … ?page=full

Grace photographed by Barry lategan when she was "just" a model.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/e00c07f98a91d64b88e5206e389119e4/tumblr_n0qb2zCh7z1s265rmo1_500.jpg

Mar 08 14 12:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,527
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


S W I N S K E Y wrote:
great photographers give us new ways to look at familiar things...

great artists...

Mar 08 14 01:36 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Al Lock Photography
Posts: 15,832
Bangkok, Bangkok, Thailand


L A U B E N H E I M E R wrote:
perhaps they observed others and also observed themselves....

I was commenting on documented information on how the Beatles created music. There is not the slightest question that experimentation, reasoning and discussion was at least as influential as observation in their development of music.

Mar 08 14 03:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Al Lock Photography
Posts: 15,832
Bangkok, Bangkok, Thailand


Robert Randall wrote:
There is no skill or magic in making someone stare blankly into a camera lens, and yes, I could do that with my eyes closed.

From a guy whose avatar is of someone staring blankly (with eyes wide) into a camera lens...

Mar 08 14 03:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15,406
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


From any interview or documentary no photographer is going to say 'I am a great photographer', the best you'll get is ' I did a competent job' or something along those lines.

So Natalia's question is a persons personal choice and taste as to who they rate.
Mar 08 14 03:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Surreal Focus
Posts: 203
Montreal, Quebec, Canada


Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
What's a Great Photographer for you?

For me it is one who creates images that stay with me, from the first glance to years later. We are flooded with images every second of every minute of every day.  It's difficult to grab anyone's attention for more than 3 seconds.  I take great interest in learning how an image was created, it's inspiration, the thought process behind it (if any) etc.  But ultimately, that's not why I wanted to pick up a camera. That is not what inspires me.  To create something that leaves a lasting impression on people, influences them and their way of thinking, even if just for a few people - that to me is a great photographer.

A friend at work one day (knowing I was Canadian) showed me this work by Jeff Wall.

https://www.moma.org/learn/moma_learnin … inted-2001

I was stunned.  I could not stop staring at it.  It still haunts me and challenges me to this day - many years later.

Mar 08 14 03:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 21,130
New York, New York, US


Zack Zoll wrote:
I have to agree wholeheartedly with the idea that Lategan was in the right place at the right time.  The best explanation I can give is a comparison to Yousuf Karsh.  Like Lategan, Karsh's 'big break' came when he had an opportunity to photograph a world-renown celebrity(in this case, Winston Churchill), which lead to other huge assignments and a career in Vogue/Bazaar/etc.

The difference between them is that Lategan is best known for photographing Twiggy, while Karsh is best known as a really good photographer that happened to photograph Churchill.

If your best-known work was your 'big break', that doesn't make you a great photographer.  That makes you a good photographer that was lucky enough to score an amazing assignment.

I would also disagree with the idea that Vermeer was the first Western 'photographer' - I would give that title to Jan Van Eyck, who predates Vermeer by about 200 years.  There is a theory(which I strongly believe) that The Arnolfini Portrait was created with the aid of the camera obscura, as there would have been no other way to observe the effects of the convex mirror in the back of the room without one's own reflection blocking the view of the betrothed couple.  Of course you could stand to the side, but then the image would be warped, and it(presumably) would have been painted differently.  I discuss this work in detail in my history lectures for my photography classes for just this reason.

Vermeer, and The Milkmaid in particular have a well-earned reputation as some of the earliest examples of photo-realism.  I attended a lecture given by Uta Barth, where she spoke extensively about that image, and about how much it influenced her own work - to the point where large swaths of her repertoire is essentially images of the room from The Milkmaid, only empty.  And she was awarded a MacArthur Genius grant for it, so it's obviously still relevant work.

But Van Eyck was still the first, at least in my book.

Also ... the more I talk about painting, the more I wish that my teaching load included an art history class.  I wonder if I can make that happen.

I know about Van Eyck, and before watching this, I would have agreed with you. Now I do not. What Vermeer did went way beyond. Check out the film, it's fantastic, then we can discuss!

Mar 08 14 04:04 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 21,130
New York, New York, US


Julian  W I L D E wrote:
I think unless you can back it up with an image... its ALL just talk.  And as they say "Talk is Cheap."

I would also add that a "great photographer" must be More than a "photographer."  Anyone can "push the button."  Anyone can recognize the profoundly beautiful.  The Great Photographer has be be something of a Stylist and a Visionary.  You must be able to do more than "capture."  To my mind, the Great Photographer does more than "sees"... he must invision and to some extent create. For this reason, except for rare occasions, I consider the general run of Celebrity Photography to be essentially lame.

If anything... I'd like to propose the idea that not all "greatness" exists in the history books and not all "greatness" lies in the pages of Vogue.  I submit that it can be found everywhere.  Even in places that we hadn't even thought of... And if I had to throw another hat into the ring...even at the price of being thought immodest,  I'd probably toss this one in.

Oh for fucks sake....

Mar 08 14 04:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan OMell
Posts: 1,335
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


great photographers are the obsessive virtual painters, looking a bit more at the dark side of things... that's why wedding photographers usually don't qualify. because everything absolutely beautiful and perfect is ALWAYS tragic. immortally tragic.

good photographers are the virtual painters that exaggerate and purify things and/or find the funny side in everything around. the best of them produce the iconic ads and commercials.

all other people are professionals and hobbists.

photography is not about a picture, rather the idea


IMHO
smile

Oh, and I'm just a shitty hobbist speaking as an observer, and not a judge.
Mar 08 14 07:26 am  Link  Quote 
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