Deep Visions wrote:
I recently did a shoot with a minor. Prior to the shoot I told her that a parent or legal guardian will have to be present. She was surprised, told me she's never done that with past shoots with other photographers. At the location I met her dad & explained to him why it was necessary to have a parent present. The shoot went smoothly afterwards.

You state that it is "necessary" to have "a parent or legal guardian present" when shooting with minors?   How so?  I'm not aware of any laws requiring such in the State of California, and I've been shooting models of which some were minors for 30 years now.  Sometimes with, but not always with a parent or guardian present either.  If it's about the model release being signed, that does not require a parent to be present through out the photo session.  So please educate me as to what I may have missed.

The minor aged model who you shot with had told you that she had posed for other photographers, but did not know that it was "necessary" so I wonder if that is just your rule, or if you know something that myself and these other photographers don't?

           ---------------------------------------------------

Additional:  You and I are both California photographers.  Even though I've been shooting quite a bit longer than you, I just want to be on the same page of awareness in this regards because laws and things often do change. 

Back in the 1990's, I used to manage music talent, which started with my own passion and love for music.  Like you, my specialty is live concert photography.   I do have some limited experience with managing minior aged music talent, so I do know some of the laws in regards to working with minors. 

I'm also a writer and singer as well.  Although I look pretty good trying pretend I can play multiple instruments, I'm a terrible at it due to a lack of practice ... so you don't want to hear me!     I sent you a "Friend Request!"

Francisco Castro wrote:
Getting a model release has nothing to do with fear. It's a good business practice in case the photos DOES become part of something bigger.

Shoot with or without the parent. But get a model release!

Except when you shouldn't.
Clearly we operate in different worlds, so there is no point arguing. You wouldn't understand my point unless you were shooting similar things; like underage agency girls (underage girls being the subject of this thread), or you were willing to educate yourself. It appears neither is the case.

John Fisher wrote:


Hmmm, only 17, 5'10, has an exceptional look and wants to be a fashion model? There is no way in hell you should even consider working with this girl. In fact, no one should work with her......

.....with one exception.

My contact information is under my signature line, get in touch with the details and I will take this vexing problem off your hands. You are so lucky to be here, and you will be happy to know that I don't charge (much) for this service!

The rest of you, feel free to bookmark this page so in case you are approached by a 5'9, 5'10, 5'11, 16 or 17 year old aspiring fashion model with a exceptional look, and are confused about how to handle the situation, now you have a plan.

Don't thank me, I'm just doin' God's work.

John
--
John Fisher
900 West Avenue, Suite 633
Miami Beach, Florida 330139
(305) 534-9322
http://www.johnfisher.com

ha ha ha - too funny!!

Garry k wrote:
Attended a fashion event at a club  recently and picked up a beautiful young 5'10 aspiring fashion model to do a photoshoot with

Thought she looked about 19 ish ( which would be legal )

turns out she is barely 17

and I will be the first photographer she has shot with ....

hmmm - awkward

Told her that she would need to have her parent sign the model release and I would prefer that her parent joins her for the shoot


She responded that she doesn't think her parent can join her for the shoot

what should i do ?

I have shot several underage models in the past but always with their parents present or in a group with a full team

Hey Garry!  I just realized I never did comment on YOUR original post ...  so here goes!

I already mentioned how important communication is to me and that I watch for any red flags before proceeding with shoots regardless of the age of the model.  It's sort of like having developed an intuition, but if I sense that a model has issues that cause her to flake on me, then I either make back up plans or I don't book with her.  I'm not going to go into all that right now because this is about you and this potential shoot with a minor. 

First thing I would consider is how this minor came to be in this club.  Was she in the fashion show?  If so, then can you verify with the organizer that she is legit, perhaps as a reference?  Years ago, I was at a club that I'd been lied to by that German woman who with her female companion kidnapped me ... and guess what?  They had fake ID's!  She wasn't 21, or so she said after the shoot.  So you know that I check people out nowadays! 

It doesn't have to be blatant or obvious, as I have perfected the art by taking on the character of Lt. Columbo by asking questions that might not seem of importance.  Also I play the naive dumb guy pretty well.   Honestly, this technique has gotten me in to places that ... well are pretty amazing!  Sometimes I've been "helped" backstage to meet bands and such!  I'm constantly thinking ... looking for clues when it comes to talking with potential models, and also I used this when meeting with potential wedding clients as I always based my fees individually on each wedding.   

Ok, back to red flags ... you sir, have intuition.  You used the word "awkward" and that right there is a red flag to consider in regards to your own feelings about shooting with her.  "Let's continue ..." in my Colombo voice inside my head!  She responded "she doesn't think her parent can join her for the shoot" ... so did you ask why?  Ok, then did you ask if there was another time when a parent "could" be present? 

Try not to make it seem pinned on her shoulders though ... it's about you and how you like to do things.  You may have already stated to her that you would feel much more comfortable having a parent present?  If she says it's just not possible even with trying to schedule a time when a parent could be there, then go with your gut ... intuition.   You know that I have shot minor aged models with or without parents present.  My own decisions are based on the communication in advance of shooting. 

Photographing minor aged models can be very rewarding and fun!  It's important to keep the images and attire appropriate of course.   Communication must be clear as to any direction or information of importance before, during and after the shoot.  Having other people present ... as in a parent, a MUA or an assistant can be extremely helpful!  My advise to you is genuine ... if you have any inkling that there might be some problem, then take a pass on her until she is an adult.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Hey Garry!  I just realized I never did comment on YOUR original post ...  so here goes!

I already mentioned how important communication is to me and that I watch for any red flags before proceeding with shoots regardless of the age of the model.  It's sort of like having developed an intuition, but if I sense that a model has issues that cause her to flake on me, then I either make back up plans or I don't book with her.  I'm not going to go into all that right now because this is about you and this potential shoot with a minor. 

First thing I would consider is how this minor came to be in this club.  Was she in the fashion show?  If so, then can you verify with the organizer that she is legit, perhaps as a reference?  Years ago, I was at a club that I'd been lied to by that German woman who with her female companion kidnapped me ... and guess what?  They had fake ID's!  She wasn't 21, or so she said after the shoot.  So you know that I check people out nowadays! 

It doesn't have to be blatant or obvious, as I have perfected the art by taking on the character of Lt. Columbo by asking questions that might not seem of importance.  Also I play the naive dumb guy pretty well.   Honestly, this technique has gotten me in to places that ... well are pretty amazing!  Sometimes I've been "helped" backstage to meet bands and such!  I'm constantly thinking ... looking for clues when it comes to talking with potential models, and also I used this when meeting with potential wedding clients as I always based my fees individually on each wedding.   

Ok, back to red flags ... you sir, have intuition.  You used the word "awkward" and that right there is a red flag to consider in regards to your own feelings about shooting with her.  "Let's continue ..." in my Colombo voice inside my head!  She responded "she doesn't think her parent can join her for the shoot" ... so did you ask why?  Ok, then did you ask if there was another time when a parent "could" be present? 

Try not to make it seem pinned on her shoulders though ... it's about you and how you like to do things.  You may have already stated to her that you would feel much more comfortable having a parent present?  If she says it's just not possible even with trying to schedule a time when a parent could be there, then go with your gut ... intuition.   You know that I have shot minor aged models with or without parents present.  My own decisions are based on the communication in advance of shooting. 

Photographing minor aged models can be very rewarding and fun!  It's important to keep the images and attire appropriate of course.   Communication must be clear as to any direction or information of importance before, during and after the shoot.  Having other people present ... as in a parent, a MUA or an assistant can be extremely helpful!  My advise to you is genuine ... if you have any inkling that there might be some problem, then take a pass on her until she is an adult.

Patrick I understand and appreciate what you are saying

Communication and "getting a read " on someone are important

But sometimes - ( as in this situation ) it is tricky

I had a 2 minute convo with the model in the midst of a busy fashion event ( in which I was shooting fashion shows that were being presented ) I did not want to come on too strong as even in a room full of many beautiful women this young lady stood out - and other photographers were approaching her as well

I never heard from her for a month after the event and then she suddenly messaged me on FB about a week ago enquiring as to whether I still wanted to shoot with her

Communication since that time has been a bit sporadic , and I have yet to speak with her mother ( upon the advice of others in this thread ) but I am hopeful this will be resolved in advance of our planned shoot this weekend


Regarding Shooting with Underage Models - I do have some experience with this in cases where I think an model has an exceptional look or presence .My avatar shot of 17 year old Coco Rocha being one example -but that shoot was arranged by the Designer with Coco's agent  ( though I did already know her from the local fashion scene ) Other Shoots I have done with underage aspiring fashion models have been attended by parents , or agents

Deep Visions wrote:
Patrick perhaps I should have worded what I said a little better. I told the model I will have to meet one or both parents when we shoot. After meeting the father, me & the model went by ourselves to the shoot location which was at a beach. Dad had a small child with him & could not climb the rocks underneath the pier where we took some photos, though the location was still very visible from the beach.

It's cool!  You expanded on what you wrote earlier and now I understand better.  There are a lot of different circumstances to doing photo shoots, and I rock the boat sometimes if an "all or nothing" scenario is presented to me.  So I ask a lot of questions! 

It's not manditory that a parent be a vigilant body guard for their teenaged daughter when trust has been built over time with the photographer along with careful checking of references.  Examples might be when parent(s) might drop their minor aged "model" off at the studio or we go to a public location that the parent(s) may or may not hang out while the shoot takes place. 

What you did with having the dad visually present at a beach shoot with this young model is very much keeping in line with how I would do it. Circumstances such as going to the beach are when I insist on having some folks tag along especially with minors!  Even when shooting adults at the beach, anything can happen! 

Although there have been a few times where an adult aged model I've worked with before and I have headed to the both for a one on one shoot, most of the beach shoots I do are with an assistant or just someone to help incase of a problem.  The model & I might wade out into the water waist deep at times.  I'm not so bold if there isn't someone just a little closer to the shore with a towel and ready to catch the camera if I need to toss it! 

Garry k wrote:

Patrick I understand and appreciate what you are saying

Communication and "getting a read " on someone are important

But sometimes - ( as in this situation ) it is tricky

I had a 2 minute convo with the model in the midst of a busy fashion event ( in which I was shooting fashion shows that were being presented ) I did not want to come on too strong as even in a room full of many beautiful women this young lady stood out - and other photographers were approaching her as well

I never heard from her for a month after the event and then she suddenly messaged me on FB about a week ago enquiring as to whether I still wanted to shoot with her

Communication since that time has been a bit sporadic , and I have yet to speak with her mother ( upon the advice of others in this thread ) but I am hopeful this will be resolved in advance of our planned shoot this weekend


Regarding Shooting with Underage Models - I do have some experience with this in cases where I think an model has an exceptional look or presence .My avatar shot of 17 year old Coco Rocha being one example -but that shoot was arranged by the Designer with Coco's agent  ( though I did already know her from the local fashion scene ) Other Shoots I have done with underage aspiring fashion models have been attended by parents , or agents

When the communication is sporadic, there's not a whole lot you can do but be patient with her.  In the meantime, you move on with other shoots. 

That's a great shot of Coco Rocha!  She was 17 then, and she is 24 years old now.   What a success story she became!  Also I know you've been at this awhile!

Patrick Walberg wrote:

When the communication is sporadic, there's not a whole lot you can do but be patient with her.  In the meantime, you move on with other shoots. 

That's a great shot of Coco Rocha!  She was 17 then, and she is 24 years old now.   What a success story she became!  Also I know you've been at this awhile!

Yes , thank you

My shots of Coco were the first I posted on MM , and in a sense it has been downhill for me since then

PR Zone wrote:
She cannot sign a contract
So she cannot give you permission
You are in trouble

Move on

Yes, they should move on to those of us who are professional and do this kind of stuff all the time.



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Nico Simon Princely wrote:
Is this a good enough reason not to shoot Minors even with parents signing a release?
http://www.styleite.com/news/hailey-clauson-lawsuit/

I'd tell her to call me when she turns 18.

SMH.

Garry k wrote:
what should i do ?

If it bugs you out, just wait 6 months (on average).

Richard Tallent wrote:

If it bugs you out, just wait 6 months (on average).

My guess is that she may well be signed and gone by that point

Anyways the shoot is scheduled for later today , and it turns out that her mom can join us

Garry k wrote:

My guess is that she may well be signed and gone by that point

Anyways the shoot is scheduled for later today , and it turns out that her mom can join us

Yaaay for things working out!

Let us know how it goes.

Garry k wrote:
in the end the shoot worked out well

I chatted with the models mom before hand by telephone

The model brought the release signed by her parent

the model came to the shoot accompanied by her boyfriend who was quite respectful and non intrusive

I had my MUA there for the entire shoot

and everyone enjoyed themselves

Rah, rah, rah! Glad to hear it.

Marin Photography NYC wrote:
I wouldn't shoot a minor I met off the internet.  I would if I met them in person and the parents gave consent. You don't need anything else. Release is optional.

If you are afraid and she has got agency stats, send her here, my mom watches me shoot all the time, she can bake cookies too, good fun!!

LOL

Do you live with your mom ?