Vintagevista wrote:

1 - Um - somebody has been injured enough to require medical attention.

2 - worried perp will get evicted.

Injury requiring medical attention Versus - Eviction

Not in the same ballpark..

Not the same league

Not even on the same freaking planet.

Sounds like a boyfriend beats up girlfriend and the lease is in his name.

If you are not kin to either - you have no reason to be out here, being all cryptic - asking half questions of the vaguest possible nature.  If you want quality advice - you can't expect to receive it with vague and ever shifting scenarios.

If you are in it - seek legal counsel

If not - you can only bring yourself grief white knighting from a distance.

No doubt--no good deed goes unpunished.
I'm not in the BDSM lifestyle but apparently I'm a glutton for punishment!
In plainspeak--I do the best I can. If there is a personal cost for being quixotic [Like Don Quixote. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Quixote]
Chivalry--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry
Noblesse oblige--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noblesse_oblige

So I have several reasons to be out there:
* I have a desire to be chivalrous,
* I live a relatively privileged life and have a sense of obligation to assist, particularly when asked.
* I am a researcher who seeks to understand social policy and how it plays out in real life.
* I think that we're also here to create awesome images. Hard to do with a model that's not feeling up to shooting!

Is learning expensive--YES. So far, I've probably spent/invested about 5.7 nonbillable hours.

Advised victim to seek legal counsel.
So have I, on behalf of victim. [Attorney hasn't returned call yet].

You and I may agree that self is more important than protecting the perpetrator but I'm opposed to eugenics. [Eugenics, as I use the term here, means good genes--means society taking a stance that certain people don't have the right to reproduce and unilaterally taking that right away from them, not leaving them with a choice. This situation is not as Draconion but I don't want to take the model's freedom of choice away--to report or not to report. I made my strong recommendation but not going to remove model's prerogative to choose to disclose to authorities or not.]

BTW, the Founding Fathers of the United States of America, founded the country stating that all men are created equal. [Notice that they didn't include women in their premise.] There were black men. Were they hypocritical in claiming that all men were created equal while yet tolerating slavery and owning slaves? As high-minded and idealistic as they were, they triaged and made the decision to found the country first, then kick the can down the road to future generations to eradicate slavery--de jure. [By law, vs. de facto--which is reality].

Similarly, I'm trying to get medical help first, and deal with legal issues later. I'm not pretending this is ideal but I'm a pragmatist. If I try to get everything done in one swallow I may fail in both. Incremental progress in reasonable time. The longest journey begins with the first step. Just because I'm looking at the first step and pointing the model to take the first step doesn't necessarily mean that I'm narrowminded, short sighted, idiotic, stupid, and the whole long list of aspersions cast my way, just that I know a little about human nature and I'm subdividing the tasks into what I hope are manageable steps for someone who may be a bit discombobulated, ATM [Do I have to explain this too? LOL. Laughing Out Loud. Now when I break it down too far, I know I will get accused of thinking my readers are stupid--has happened on MM. One size does NOT fit all.]

The Founding Fathers intentionally included the vague term "pursuit of happiness" so that they could get everyone to sign on.  I've learned a few things from them--I sometimes intentionally use vague terms! ;-)

Ken Warren Photography wrote:
Fine. You can keep chasing the unicorn of "quality medical care for domestic violence without consequences for the abuser" all day if you want. I think you're a fool for doing so, and you're doing your model friend absolutely no favors.

Yes, I indeed am an idealist. See my previous post about Founding Fathers--obtaining independence vs. eradicating slavery.

In summary, our FF realized that they couldn't do both: found the country and free the slaves.

So the opted to do the former (that's the first thing--found the country), then let others deal with slavery, if we founded the country.

Founding the country was not a forgone conclusion by any stretch of the imagination. It was touch and go. American colonist were outnumbered, outgunned, etc. I won't go into a history lesson on why American won against the British [because I wasn't alive then and I don't remember :-)] I'm taking a page out of their playbook and taking this one step at a time.

Was slavery abusive. Absolutely. Didn't have to be but the way it was practiced was miserable. If you don't believe me, view the movie "Amazing Grace." Yes, that was about the British eradication of slavery but it'll give you enough of the flavor of the horrendous level of abuse back then. But the Founding Fathers let it stand and bided their time.

That's my strategy, and I'm sticking to it [alluding to Martin Luther, 95 Thesis, Diet of Worms] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Lut … t_of_Worms

In plainspeak--I'm doing what I think is best until I'm shown a better path.

FFantastique wrote:

LOL, it is English! 

I like a pedantic and erudite style. It's just a style thing. Not intended to be snobbish. My learning has taught me to utilize the words so that they don't become vestigial skill! There I go again! :-)

Thank you for pointing that out--that there is a great deal of confusion.
Mea culpa. As a communicator--I take responsibility for conveying message.

Just made a call to healthcare attorney at GrayRobinson and left message for him.

There is safety in a multitude of counselors.

Current synopsis:
I outlined the case (just the outline) and said that the best I can come up with now is for the victim to seek medical care in a model's mandatory-reporting state yet gracefully decline to disclose the people who were the proximate cause of the injuries.
* This sounds so simple, yet how does it play out in real life?
* How can he/she be assured that he/she isn't badgered and interrogated?

Is my synopsis simple enough?

Attorney usually calls back in a timely manner and since this is non billable, I do not expect priority service.

Part of the reason for my undertaking this is to:
* help the victim,
* learn about what others go thru,
* help others who may also be victims or become victims who don't want to make public disclosures, or who are in situations where they are not allowed to reach out for help,
* help understand and interpret public policy,
* raise the level of debate,
* etc. ad nauseam. [I think that last term is Latin].

It is NOT intended to share anyone's details.

You're welcome.

It is not a pedantic and erudite style (because your communications do not follow the rules and the references tend to be a far reach).

It is an affectation at the cost of delivering a clear message. It is an obfuscation. It is a misuse of the thesaurus with little regard to context.

I think you have some decent thoughts and concerns. I would love to hear them in a clear, intelligible style. A style that doesn't impede the message.

Yes, sometimes, for worse, the medium does become the message.

FFantastique wrote:

Cops don't fear domestic calls more than almost anything, for no good reason.

Step back......person involved is the one that has to extricate themselves from the situation. Do it for them, they'll just find a replacement ASAP until they've learned to do it by themselves. They usually don't stay gone for good until the 7-8th time.

Lohkee wrote:

You could very easily give an overview of what went down without disclosing gender, state, age, race, etc. or giving any clues about the vic. You make it virtually impossible to offer any meaningful suggestions when no one really knows what the situation is, for example: Is it the vic or the perp at risk for deportation? This is important because you earlier comment suggest that one of the parties is either an illegal alien or holds a green card (which could, in theory, be revoked   although it rarely happens unless the holder committed fraud to get it or engages in some serious criminal activity). It would also suggest how best to get medical help under the radar (as it were).

Is there a marital relationship? If so, and the abused vic has a green card, there are federal laws protecting them from automatic deportation should the vic decide to dissolve that relationship. 

Also, you offer nothing about the extent of the vic's physical injuries except to say that medical intervention is required. I have no medical training but I would hazard an uneducated guess that serious injuries, left untreated, could very possibly lead to life-long disabilities or even death. If the vic is good with this there is not much anyone can do. Since the vic appears content to forgo medical treatment in favor of anonymity, it suggests that the injuries are not very very serious at all, or that the vic is down with risking their health and possibly life. Again, not much anyone can do the help them. They become the engines of their own destruction. Have you even researched the vic's injuries in relation to the reporting laws where they reside? It may be a moot point.

You say the vic's hands are not exactly clean either. Without knowing how so it really means zip. The vic's hands being "dirty" in some cases might actually be helpful; it depends.

You say the relationship between you and the vic is professional and yet seem to be investing an amazing amount of time calling various agencies. See the problem here?

You also acknowledge that you have no experience in this type of situation. Assuming for the heck of it that your story is true, then while your intentions might be good, following your advice could prove fatal.

And finally, your posts have all of the hallmarks of the typical hoax email (OMG, the sky is falling while offering no evidence that such is indeed the case).

Frankly, I do not believe a word that you have said. I've been told that makes me a dickhead. I'm fine with that.

Have a great day!

Best post you've done so far!

Maybe I didn't have the facts disclosed vetted like a Harvard Case study and have it peer reviewed but felt that we don't have time for that.

Not a hoax. I'm not asking anyone to send any resources anywhere but provide some advice and guidance.

Extent of injuries--I'm relaying on self report. No images, no X-rays, no third party observations, etc.

Relationships and status--again, I didn't get all the details.

This is not an ideal world--the call came in while I was engaged in other business activities, dealing with clients, etc. so the victim didn't have my undivided attention.

Yes, I'm investing a lot of time in part because I don't know. As previously stated the investment in time is not only for the individual and potential images but also for my research purposes. This is what I call action research. If I already knew the answers I wouldn't be spending so much time trying to figure things out!

Just by way of comparison, I'm also working on non MM people on DP case [Death Penalty]--that's taking over a decade and over 200 man hours--and the convicted is someone I found on line. But I think, there but for the grace of God go I.

Another case is of an attorney disbarred for over a decade. IP (In Process).

Another is a nurse getting reinstated. Done.

Another is a pizza driver seeking to get insurance and real estate license because of conspiracy to introduce a controlled substance into a correctional facility. We're going for clemency.

No, I'm not an expert in domestic violence but I do have enough experience to make do-no-harm recommendations in this case, but I'm not in a position to enforce my recommendations without overstepping my professional boundaries.

You make good suggestions, questions, comments. Appreciated. I've got to move on ATM. I may return to this, I may not. But rest assured you've given me angles to consider that heretofore weren't on the radar.

FFantastique wrote:
Best post you've done so far!

Maybe I didn't have the facts disclosed vetted like a Harvard Case study and have it peer reviewed but felt that we don't have time for that.

Not a hoax. I'm not asking anyone to send any resources anywhere but provide some advice and guidance.

Extent of injuries--I'm relaying on self report. No images, no X-rays, no third party observations, etc.

Relationships and status--again, I didn't get all the details.

This is not an ideal world--the call came in while I was engaged in other business activities, dealing with clients, etc. so the victim didn't have my undivided attention.

Yes, I'm investing a lot of time in part because I don't know. As previously stated the investment in time is not only for the individual and potential images but also for my research purposes. This is what I call action research. If I already knew the answers I wouldn't be spending so much time trying to figure things out!

Just by way of comparison, I'm also working on non MM people on DP case [Death Penalty]--that's taking over a decade and over 200 man hours--and the convicted is someone I found on line. But I think, there but for the grace of God go I.

Another case is of an attorney disbarred for over a decade. IP (In Process).

Another is a nurse getting reinstated. Done.

Another is a pizza driver seeking to get insurance and real estate license because of conspiracy to introduce a controlled substance into a correctional facility. We're going for clemency.

No, I'm not an expert in domestic violence but I do have enough experience to make do-no-harm recommendations in this case, but I'm not in a position to enforce my recommendations without overstepping my professional boundaries.

You make good suggestions, questions, comments. Appreciated. I've got to move on ATM. I may return to this, I may not. But rest assured you've given me angles to consider that heretofore weren't on the radar.

Well, you certainly have said quite a bit here (most of which has ZERO to do with the issue you initially raised). I nominate this as your best evasive response thus far! Think I'm going to stick with being MM's official dick hole (even though I'm not really sure what that actually means).

I still think you're just playing games.

After all, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, well, it probably is, in fact, a duck. EOC.

Lohkee wrote:

Also, you offer nothing about the extent of the vic's physical injuries except to say that medical intervention is required. I have no medical training but I would hazard an uneducated guess that serious injuries, left untreated, could very possibly lead to life-long disabilities or even death. If the vic is good with this there is not much anyone can do. Since the vic appears content to forgo medical treatment in favor of anonymity, it suggests that the injuries are not very very serious at all, or that the vic is down with risking their health and possibly life. Again, not much anyone can do the help them. They become the engines of their own destruction. Have you even researched the vic's injuries in relation to the reporting laws where they reside? It may be a moot point.

After some cogitation [thinking, reflection] I like to address this--do you think *I* have good intel? :-)

I get a call while working and instead of pushing to later, took the call. I divided my cognitive capacity between work and call. So I'm not working with perfect information either.

Also I recognize that that someone who says, for example, "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse" is employing hyperbole. Similarly, when someone claims to be beat up I don't know what we're REALLY dealing with. I hear the words but then I use my "third ear" to try to discern what is really going on.

They're not entirely consistent.  When the individual can and does proceed with ADLs [Activities of Daily Living] with heavy makeup, it's not likely that this is life threatening.

Out of an abundance of caution, I am researching as if the words are to be taken literally. Possibly model is understating the severity. IDK. Relayed model's self report via an MD and apparently there is no apparent occipital fracture.

Professional relationship: someone asked how my behavior doesn't compute with a professional relationship. To be truthful, my original reaction was "[Expletive deleted] this is going to mess up the picture! :-(" Then I realized, I ought to demonstrate a modicum of humanity to the model. It is possible that I may get class credit for this case study. There is not a conflict of interest when knowing the case inside and out, backwards and forwards, and being able to deal with any level of severity, is in the best interest of the model. Furthermore, this is 2nd DV case--that one we went searching for maxo-facial reconstructive surgery.

I'm attempting to NOT overinvest--which is evidenced by the fact that I don't read, revise, edit, resubmit repeatedly. I'm trying to do stream of consciousness and move on! ;-)

Threat to life: I've taken training in research methods (Shadish, Cook & Campbell), IRB, FERPA, HIPAA, [I'm not going to explain these for the reader] and dealt with DP (death penalty) case that is literally life or death, so I'm not totally out of my depth with providing advice that's in the do-no-harm category. There are non verbal cues in the call that lead me to believe that I don't have adequate justification to violate confidentiality.

Previously didn't share all this because I wanted to focus on finding solution for the model. Now that apparently the crisis is over and since the topic was raised about my role in enabling, etc. I thought it not inappropriate to share a little.

Lohkee wrote:
I still think you're just playing games.

Y?

FFantastique wrote:
After some cogitation [thinking, reflection] I like to address this--do you think *I* have good intel? :-)

I don't have a clue what you have for no other reason than while you write many words, you say virtually nothing at all substantive with regard to the situation.

The possibility of deportation caught my attention for reasons I've already explained. It would, for example, be very easy to understand a vic who believed (correctly or otherwise) themselves to be at risk for deportation and not want LEO involved.

The vic's legal status (illegal v permanent resident) is obviously important.

The precise nature of the relationship between the vic and the perp could be a real game changer (especially with regard to immigration issues), and in terms of the likelihood of a repeat performance. In either case there are advocacy groups that specialize in both of these types of issues and in some cases provide free legal assistance by specialists in their respective fields. Skydancer (I think it was he) mentioned one.

So, again I don't have a clue what you are dealing with because you refuse to shed any light on it. Hell, for all I know, it could even be a new variation on "my granny is in the hospital."

The only thing I know with any degree of certainty is that I really know nothing at all about this "case."

udor wrote:

Nice speech!

Now, could you explain again why you are looking for clandestine ways to conceal the truth from authorities and how that harmonizes with your not-lying-personality?!

I've been reflecting on this thought-provoking question and would like to refer to the 5th amendment. More in subsequent post.

Lohkee wrote:

So lying by omission, otherwise known as exclusionary detailing, is cool with you. Good to know.

ABSOLUTELY! While I am very clear in my belief system that omission is OK, I appreciate your pointing it out as it has caused me to reexamine and analyze my value system and I do come to the same conclusion AND I have support for this in Amendment V which states in part, "No person shall be...compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself [or herself...]"

[I have cherry picked the relevant portions but don't think that I've done so inappropriately. In plain speak, my excerpts are not done in a way with the intention to distort the Founding Fathers intentions, nor do I think I have in fact done so. (Argh--I'm not sure that was much plainer LOL)]

Therefore I reaffirm my original assertion that withholding information by stating that one does not wish to make any statement as to the proximate cause of the injuries is not unethical, immoral nor illegal. In fact, such a course of action is apparently explicitly supported by the US Constitution!

---
Found out that the mandatory reporting laws are such that they apply to gunshots, stabs, and other serious injuries that are classified as felonious!  Well, healthcare providers are not always able to make such fine distinctions regarding what is felonious in many gray areas and the level of injury sustained in this case can readily NOT meet the threshhold to trigger mandatory reporting!

Bottom line: the model reports that although on painkillers, the injuries sustained are not going to permanently adversely impact modeling! ;-)  Winding down.

I've learned a ton while dealing with this and consider it an investment which makes me better prepared for future cases.

Evan Hiltunen wrote:

It is not a pedantic and erudite style (because your communications do not follow the rules and the references tend to be a far reach).

It is an affectation at the cost of delivering a clear message. It is an obfuscation. It is a misuse of the thesaurus with little regard to context.

I think you have some decent thoughts and concerns. I would love to hear them in a clear, intelligible style. A style that doesn't impede the message.

Yes, sometimes, for worse, the medium does become the message.

Concur--occasionally my prose may be malapropistic and hypertexted! :-)
I see connections and relevance in various paradigms and don't always take the time to connect the dots.
Yes, guilty as charged--often intentionally obfuscatory.

In the 1980s I was licensed as PI [Private Investigator] and green as the grass. I received a single anonymous letter. Within about 45 minutes I was able to identify the author as Nalini M[last name redacted].

True, I'm smart but since I know people today are very much smarter than I was then, I've attempted to be very circumspect with the specifics. I know that makes the analysis and difficult because there are so many what ifs, and it can be excruciatingly frustrating. But I felt I should err on the side of caution and release less rather than more. Morina already refers to what I shared as blabbing on the internet. She is a formidable model and I don't want her to think ill of me and my m.o. (any more than she already does)! :-)

Skydancer Photos wrote:
You could also suggest to her that she contact this group... they are extremely qualified in advising and/or pointing victims in the right direction.
https://www.rainn.org/

EXCELLENT resource. WOW.  THANK YOU.

I so greatly appreciate your assistance, guidance and direction in this matter.

I expected that MM community would be forthcoming with useful guidance and resources and you have demonstrated this admirably and represented the MM family well!

Again, THANK YOU.